As Locks already said, Germany is not prosecuting Rumsfeld.
At least not at the moment.
Other posters said that it would be a bad thing for international realtions between our two countries and I tend to agree... a bit.
Yes, politically it would be a rather silly move, that´s why it won´t happen.
But seeing that it already is a US/German venture of human rights organisations, it wouldn´t be a bad thing to set an example for international rights.
This is incredibly stupid move for Germany. some of the US's torture facilities were located in Europe, so I imagine european countries were aware of what was going on. I imagine most european's countries have torture facilities too. Charging Rumsfield could give the US an opening to charge other countries with war crimes too, and not just have everyone focus on the USA.
This is not the German government's doing. A Us civil rights group is just trying to use Geman law as a way of prosecuting him becasue of an odd law in Germany.
filing the suit is one thing. Getting the German authorities to do anything with it is another thnig entirely
This is incredibly stupid move for Germany. some of the US's torture facilities were located in Europe, so I imagine european countries were aware of what was going on. I imagine most european's countries have torture facilities too.
:?:
Charging Rumsfield could give the US an opening to charge other countries with war crimes too, and not just have everyone focus on the USA.
This is incredibly stupid move for Germany. some of the US's torture facilities were located in Europe, so I imagine european countries were aware of what was going on. I imagine most european's countries have torture facilities too. Charging Rumsfield could give the US an opening to charge other countries with war crimes too, and not just have everyone focus on the USA.
I'm sure you could find some torture facilities in Eastern Europe, but I'm not aware of any torture going on in Western Europe. And why would the US go after countries helping them with torture outsourcing? I don't think American government officials will want to actively expose what they've been doing. But, hey, I'm in favor of all torturers going to jail, so whatever.
Ecoterrorism is actually the single largest terrorist threat at the moment. They don't usually kill people, but they blow up or set on fire very expensive things.
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GoslingLooking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, ProbablyWatertown, WIRegistered Userregular
I'm sure you could find some torture facilities in Eastern Europe, but I'm not aware of any torture going on in Western Europe. And why would the US go after countries helping them with torture outsourcing? I don't think American government officials will want to actively expose what they've been doing. But, hey, I'm in favor of all torturers going to jail, so whatever.
Do you think nations want people to know they are commiting torture? obviously not, but I imagine most if not all countries commit torture. The public just doesn't realize it and there aren't of reporters looking for everything and anything that is wrong with those countries to discover the truth. If you honestly believe that a country doesn't perform torture, your naive at best. A country needs to be big and mean to some people to survive. its just how many people the country has to be mean to that determines the countrys quality.
Why would the US point out a country is performing torture? well because they are pointing out the US is.
I'm sure you could find some torture facilities in Eastern Europe, but I'm not aware of any torture going on in Western Europe. And why would the US go after countries helping them with torture outsourcing? I don't think American government officials will want to actively expose what they've been doing. But, hey, I'm in favor of all torturers going to jail, so whatever.
Do you think nations want people to know they are commiting torture? obviously not, but I imagine most if not all countries commit torture. The public just doesn't realize it and there aren't of reporters looking for everything and anything that is wrong with those countries to discover the truth. If you honestly believe that a country doesn't perform torture, your naive at best. A country needs to be big and mean to some people to survive. its just how many people the country has to be mean to that determines the countrys quality.
Why would the US point out a country is performing torture? well because they are pointing out the US is.
Well then, if this is true then perhaps Rummy needs to pay the price for forgetting to keep his secret tourture more of a FUCKING SECRET THEN.
sigh
Look, tourture is a lousy way to get info. It's unreliable, not cost effective and generally unpopular. It results in bad information. Bribes and blackmail work much better and are far less messy. Nations do not need to torture people to survive, despite what the conspiricy theorists may think.
"In recent interviews with NEWSWEEK reporters, U.S. intelligence officers say they have little—if any—evidence that useful intelligence has been obtained using techniques generally understood to be torture."
edit: I guess all those girls who confessed to being witches while under tourture EVEN THOUGH THEY KNEW THEY WOULD BE BURNED ALIVE FOR IT were actually witches then.
ALocksly on
Yes,... yes, I agree. It's totally unfair that sober you gets into trouble for things that drunk you did.
Do you think nations want people to know they are commiting torture? obviously not, but I imagine most if not all countries commit torture. The public just doesn't realize it and there aren't of reporters looking for everything and anything that is wrong with those countries to discover the truth. If you honestly believe that a country doesn't perform torture, your naive at best. A country needs to be big and mean to some people to survive. its just how many people the country has to be mean to that determines the countrys quality.
Why would the US point out a country is performing torture? well because they are pointing out the US is.
Why is it every time someone posts something like this, I get this vision of a greasy 13 year old beating off over a Soldier of Fortune magazine, crooning 'Ooh baby. I am so hard-headed and realistic. Only I understand what the sheeple don't want to know. Ooh yeah. I am hardcore'?
I'm sure you could find some torture facilities in Eastern Europe, but I'm not aware of any torture going on in Western Europe. And why would the US go after countries helping them with torture outsourcing? I don't think American government officials will want to actively expose what they've been doing. But, hey, I'm in favor of all torturers going to jail, so whatever.
Do you think nations want people to know they are commiting torture? obviously not, but I imagine most if not all countries commit torture. The public just doesn't realize it and there aren't of reporters looking for everything and anything that is wrong with those countries to discover the truth. If you honestly believe that a country doesn't perform torture, your naive at best. A country needs to be big and mean to some people to survive. its just how many people the country has to be mean to that determines the countrys quality.
Why would the US point out a country is performing torture? well because they are pointing out the US is.
No, most nations do not commit torture. It is not easy to hide things like commiting torture, because people have an inherient belief that by golly gee, torture is bad, and when they see governements torturing, especialy their own, they go to the gosh darn press about it.
This aint a perfect system, but considering the nations we are talking about, it is a pretty good system.
I'm sure you could find some torture facilities in Eastern Europe, but I'm not aware of any torture going on in Western Europe. And why would the US go after countries helping them with torture outsourcing? I don't think American government officials will want to actively expose what they've been doing. But, hey, I'm in favor of all torturers going to jail, so whatever.
Do you think nations want people to know they are commiting torture? obviously not, but I imagine most if not all countries commit torture. The public just doesn't realize it and there aren't of reporters looking for everything and anything that is wrong with those countries to discover the truth. If you honestly believe that a country doesn't perform torture, your naive at best. A country needs to be big and mean to some people to survive. its just how many people the country has to be mean to that determines the countrys quality.
Why would the US point out a country is performing torture? well because they are pointing out the US is.
No, most nations do not commit torture. It is not easy to hide things like commiting torture, because people have an inherient belief that by golly gee, torture is bad, and when they see governements torturing, especialy their own, they go to the gosh darn press about it.
This aint a perfect system, but considering the nations we are talking about, it is a pretty good system.
There is already a hole in your argument. Look at how long it took for someone to find out about america's torture facilities where basically every reporter is searching for dirt about america.
There is already a hole in your argument. Look at how long it took for someone to find out about america's torture facilities where basically every reporter is searching for dirt about america.
Took a couple of months.
Didnt tank long on extraordinary rendition either [bout a year for that]
NSA scandal 3.5 years.
I am skeptical that any government could keep such programs under wraps for so long.
edit: not to mention that our press is shitty in the U.S. compared to Europe
I'm sure you could find some torture facilities in Eastern Europe, but I'm not aware of any torture going on in Western Europe. And why would the US go after countries helping them with torture outsourcing? I don't think American government officials will want to actively expose what they've been doing. But, hey, I'm in favor of all torturers going to jail, so whatever.
Do you think nations want people to know they are commiting torture? obviously not, but I imagine most if not all countries commit torture. The public just doesn't realize it and there aren't of reporters looking for everything and anything that is wrong with those countries to discover the truth. If you honestly believe that a country doesn't perform torture, your naive at best. A country needs to be big and mean to some people to survive. its just how many people the country has to be mean to that determines the countrys quality.
Why would the US point out a country is performing torture? well because they are pointing out the US is.
Do you have any evidence that torture is taking place in Western Europe?
There is already a hole in your argument. Look at how long it took for someone to find out about america's torture facilities where basically every reporter is searching for dirt about america.
Took a couple of months.
Didnt tank long on extraordinary rendition either [bout a year for that]
NSA scandal 3.5 years.
I am skeptical that any government could keep such programs under wraps for so long.
edit: not to mention that our press is shitty in the U.S. compared to Europe
Al Jazeera was reporting on torture allegations long before any of the pictures came out. It wasn't as hidden as many, who blamed the media for the "Arabs finding out", would like to believe.
Bush can define torture and he would not define anything Rumsfeld allowed as torture. It will never get anywhere without the US handing Rumsfeld to a German court.
It's symbolic, but I like the symbology.
Yeah, I like it when unnecessary tension is added to U.S./Europe relations also. It's a good thing nothing important that might require unity or good will between the two parties is going on in the world.
And who gets to arbitrarily decide that this whole thing is "unnecessary" or not? You?
The allegation that the Defense Secretary of the United States carried out war crimes is a very serious one and needs to be investigated. Rumsfeld needs to be tried, and if he indeed has committed the crimes, or allowed them to be carried and looked the other way, he should be punished for it.
This whole thing hurts US/Europe relations... so what? It will not have any permanent effect. Any short-term damages caused by this ordeal can be rectified in the long term. However, if Rumsfeld gets away with this shit (given that it's proven first), that's going to stay with us for as long as history can remember it.[/b]
Posts
As Locks already said, Germany is not prosecuting Rumsfeld.
At least not at the moment.
Other posters said that it would be a bad thing for international realtions between our two countries and I tend to agree... a bit.
Yes, politically it would be a rather silly move, that´s why it won´t happen.
But seeing that it already is a US/German venture of human rights organisations, it wouldn´t be a bad thing to set an example for international rights.
filing the suit is one thing. Getting the German authorities to do anything with it is another thnig entirely
:?:
You're welcome to dump Blair in Gitmo.
¡A Argentina!
You assume that we don't already. (Not countries, per se, but individuals.) It's very do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do.
Do you think nations want people to know they are commiting torture? obviously not, but I imagine most if not all countries commit torture. The public just doesn't realize it and there aren't of reporters looking for everything and anything that is wrong with those countries to discover the truth. If you honestly believe that a country doesn't perform torture, your naive at best. A country needs to be big and mean to some people to survive. its just how many people the country has to be mean to that determines the countrys quality.
Why would the US point out a country is performing torture? well because they are pointing out the US is.
Well then, if this is true then perhaps Rummy needs to pay the price for forgetting to keep his secret tourture more of a FUCKING SECRET THEN.
sigh
Look, tourture is a lousy way to get info. It's unreliable, not cost effective and generally unpopular. It results in bad information. Bribes and blackmail work much better and are far less messy. Nations do not need to torture people to survive, despite what the conspiricy theorists may think.
heres some reading for ya
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/050214fa_fact6?050214fa_fact6
http://blog.case.edu/mxs24/2006/11/13/the_fallacy_of_tortures_effectiveness3
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14924664/site/newsweek/
quote from the last link:
"In recent interviews with NEWSWEEK reporters, U.S. intelligence officers say they have little—if any—evidence that useful intelligence has been obtained using techniques generally understood to be torture."
edit: I guess all those girls who confessed to being witches while under tourture EVEN THOUGH THEY KNEW THEY WOULD BE BURNED ALIVE FOR IT were actually witches then.
Why is it every time someone posts something like this, I get this vision of a greasy 13 year old beating off over a Soldier of Fortune magazine, crooning 'Ooh baby. I am so hard-headed and realistic. Only I understand what the sheeple don't want to know. Ooh yeah. I am hardcore'?
Wait. I guess that is why.
Um.
Nope, you are pretty clearly an idiot. Hell, I even have proof.
No, most nations do not commit torture. It is not easy to hide things like commiting torture, because people have an inherient belief that by golly gee, torture is bad, and when they see governements torturing, especialy their own, they go to the gosh darn press about it.
This aint a perfect system, but considering the nations we are talking about, it is a pretty good system.
Naw, you and that LondonBridge guy seem to make the highest number of embarassing posts on this forum currently. Take it from a lurker.
Opinion offered, JOSIAH VANISH!
Didnt tank long on extraordinary rendition either [bout a year for that]
NSA scandal 3.5 years.
I am skeptical that any government could keep such programs under wraps for so long.
edit: not to mention that our press is shitty in the U.S. compared to Europe
And who gets to arbitrarily decide that this whole thing is "unnecessary" or not? You?
The allegation that the Defense Secretary of the United States carried out war crimes is a very serious one and needs to be investigated. Rumsfeld needs to be tried, and if he indeed has committed the crimes, or allowed them to be carried and looked the other way, he should be punished for it.
This whole thing hurts US/Europe relations... so what? It will not have any permanent effect. Any short-term damages caused by this ordeal can be rectified in the long term. However, if Rumsfeld gets away with this shit (given that it's proven first), that's going to stay with us for as long as history can remember it.[/b]