Warlocks are both interesting and really boring at the same time. Their "goth blast" (as the Warlock in my WLD party calls it) / Eldritch Ray is untyped damage; so it ignores SR, and hits on a touch attack. Against most creatures, it's a guaranteed 1d6 points of damage per round (scaling up with level).
Most of the choices on what to do in combat are taken care of during leveling... and while there are some interesting choices to make there, the end result is still a push-button caster.
I think you mean DR there but you're exactly right. While SR is a little bit of a problem you really don't care about DR in the slightest.
Speaking of WLD [spoiler:3b4ca9bc17]The Warlock in the group I ran beat the living shit out of Longtail. That's some nice DR 10/Silver...what, no SR? Zot![/spoiler:3b4ca9bc17]
What's untyped damage got to do with SR? If it's a spell targeted at a creature that does damage Spell Resistance applies, no? Or is it a supernatural ability or something?
What's untyped damage got to do with DR? Damage Reduction only applies to weapon (or unarmed/natural weapon) attacks anyways, not spells or spell-like abilities.
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What's untyped damage got to do with SR? If it's a spell targeted at a creature that does damage Spell Resistance applies, no? Or is it a supernatural ability or something?
What's untyped damage got to do with DR? Damage Reduction only applies to weapon (or unarmed/natural weapon) attacks anyways, not spells or spell-like abilities.
What's untyped damage got to do with SR? If it's a spell targeted at a creature that does damage Spell Resistance applies, no? Or is it a supernatural ability or something?
What's untyped damage got to do with DR? Damage Reduction only applies to weapon (or unarmed/natural weapon) attacks anyways, not spells or spell-like abilities.
I really think he meant DR. SR does apply. It's (Sp).
The comparison with DR is because it's a small amount of damage every single turn. It's more similar to the fashion in which weapon damage is done than spell damage. Looking at a Warlock as a kind of specialized archer is more accurate than looking at them like another caster.
Hm. Energy Resistance makes sense, yea. The untyped comes in handy there.
Damage Reduction is bypassed just cos it's a spell like ability. Also, reading the DR section again I noticed that even non-magical energy attacks aren't affected by DR.
What's untyped damage got to do with SR? If it's a spell targeted at a creature that does damage Spell Resistance applies, no? Or is it a supernatural ability or something?
What's untyped damage got to do with DR? Damage Reduction only applies to weapon (or unarmed/natural weapon) attacks anyways, not spells or spell-like abilities.
I really think he meant DR. SR does apply. It's (Sp).
The comparison with DR is because it's a small amount of damage every single turn. It's more similar to the fashion in which weapon damage is done than spell damage. Looking at a Warlock as a kind of specialized archer is more accurate than looking at them like another caster.
Actually, I thought I meant SR - I thought Eldritch Ray was (Su).
How's that supposed to work, anyway? It's not like Eldritch Ray has a spellcaster level.
Eldritch Blast
Ray, 60 ft. ranged touch attack; standard action usable at will; no saving throw; half damage
to objects; subject to spell resistance; not subject to damage reduction or energy resistances
The one thing it doesn't mention is the Caster Level for Eldritch Blast. =/
Anything but Warlock level is rapingly bad. I'd go with that.
Now the real question is what level spell if Eldritch blast equal to? Low is good for Empowered and Quicken SLA feats but means a lesser globe and the like completely shut down the Warlock.
I think the 'official' answer is 1st level unless it has a blast shape invocation applied to it. Which is about fifty-fifty good/bad. Granted that's from a fuzzy memory so I wouldn't treat that as gospel.
I always liked the Omnificer. A 4th level character knows everything about everything ever for the low cost of a couple single-use magic items and the lives of four hirelings.
I always liked the Omnificer. A 4th level character knows everything about everything ever for the low cost of a couple single-use magic items and the lives of four hirelings.
...and, you know, an exploit known as the Infinite Damage Machine.
I call foul on Omnificer's Wondrous Waterbucket. If you can read drowning rules as dropping from minus billion HP to 0 HP then I can damn well read that drowning process is irreversible no matter what you do afterwards. It says you drown on third round, doesn't matter how much you heal yourself.
friend was asking me about some book called the magic of incarnum or something of that matter for our campaign any thing i need to look out for should we use it?
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friend was asking me about some book called the magic of incarnum or something of that matter for our campaign any thing i need to look out for should we use it?
No, the system is mechanically weak, but a lto of fun and very flexible. Do not be surprised if he has an answer to everything you throw at him, but he won't be a combat God by any stretch. Well, assuming he either goes straight incarnum class 20 or an incarnum class and sticks to incarnum only prc's.
What's untyped damage got to do with SR? If it's a spell targeted at a creature that does damage Spell Resistance applies, no? Or is it a supernatural ability or something?
What's untyped damage got to do with DR? Damage Reduction only applies to weapon (or unarmed/natural weapon) attacks anyways, not spells or spell-like abilities.
I really think he meant DR. SR does apply. It's (Sp).
The comparison with DR is because it's a small amount of damage every single turn. It's more similar to the fashion in which weapon damage is done than spell damage. Looking at a Warlock as a kind of specialized archer is more accurate than looking at them like another caster.
Actually, I thought I meant SR - I thought Eldritch Ray was (Su).
How's that supposed to work, anyway? It's not like Eldritch Ray has a spellcaster level.
Eldritch Blast
Ray, 60 ft. ranged touch attack; standard action usable at will; no saving throw; half damage
to objects; subject to spell resistance; not subject to damage reduction or energy resistances
The one thing it doesn't mention is the Caster Level for Eldritch Blast. =/
An eldritch blasts's spell level is equal to the highest level of invocation used (all the invocations have an equivalent spell level). SR is completely moot once you get vitriolic blast, as it adds 2d6 acid damage and ignores SR. Warlock's caster level is his class level.
And lastly, warlocks are bad in the sense that they aren't very good. I love the class myself, but that's just my own personal hatred against limited use things like wands, potions, and spell slots (red mage syndrome). On the power scale, warlocks are decidedly below average to average. Being able to do 14d6 every round (using vitriolic blast anfd a chausible of fell power), really pales in comparrisson to what any other caster could be doing. I mean shoot, a wizard hurls out 12d6 with a second level spell, pre metamagic. Really fun class to play imo though.
Don't know if it "helps", but the errata for Divine Metamagic states that the caster must already have the metamagic feat they wish to apply Divine Metamagic to.
With that in mind, how else is it broken? (I'm genuinely curious)
Also, I hear a lot of Persistent Spell is very abusable by Clerics. In what way?
Don't know if it "helps", but the errata for Divine Metamagic states that the caster must already have the metamagic feat they wish to apply Divine Metamagic to.
With that in mind, how else is it broken? (I'm genuinely curious)
Also, I hear a lot of Persistent Spell is very abusable by Clerics. In what way?
Before the correction you could do this:
"I burn a turn attempt to maximize a fireball, even though I don't have the maximize metamagic feat."
Now it's like this:
"OK I get Persistant Spell, Extra Turning, a domain that let's me boost up my cha or add turning, or even just cast Eagle's Splendor based on how that affects the turning rules, this way I have at least 6 turn attempts / day.
Use all my Turn attempts to Divine Metamagic Persistant Spell spells that would normally require 10th, 11th, or beyond spell slots.
At 7th level. This spell lasts on me for the next 24 hours, and tomorrow I can repeat"
A real nice one to do is Divine Power. Which
Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level (which may give you additional attacks), you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and you gain 1 temporary hit point per caster level.
Instead of lasting for 7 rounds, that now lasts for 24 hours, and all it cost you was 1 4th level spell and your turn attempts.
Nevermind that you can effectively have a 15th level spell slot via divine meta persistent.Have a 9th level spell you'd liek to last 24 hours? So loung 7 turn checks, hello 24/7 greater visage of the deity and all its delicious unnamed bonusses.
Isn't that what Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic and Mordenkainen's Disjunction are for? Putting down people who rely too much on permanent buffs.
Assuming the caster level check succeeds on Dispel Magic, you still have a cleric there and while for the rest of the day they are no longer insane, they are still capable of healing and buffing. Tomorrow she will simply repeat.
This is not a Permanent buff, it's a buff that normally lasts for rounds and extended the entire day.
Caster level checks, yea for Dispels. But when speaking of 9th level spells the Disjunction doesn't require a check and will fuck the cleric up in other ways as well.
And then the Cleric is down one 9th level spell and... three feats?
But yeah. Probably rocks at lower levels and muscle-oriented fights. A mage a level or two higher than the cleric with Arcane Mastery (take 10 on caster level check) might be particularly devastating, but that's pretty specific.
Caster level checks, yea for Dispels. But when speaking of 9th level spells the Disjunction doesn't require a check and will fuck the cleric up in other ways as well.
And then the Cleric is down one 9th level spell and... three feats?
But yeah. Probably rocks at lower levels and muscle-oriented fights. A mage a level or two higher than the cleric with Arcane Mastery (take 10 on caster level check) might be particularly devastating, but that's pretty specific.
Not all feats are useful all of the time. Look at item creation, or disarm/sunder, or spell focus Conjuration. Besides Extend Spell isn't bad.
The Cleric is at worst, down Extra Turning (which hopefully he got from a domain, or didn't need to grab anyways thanks to high cha/domains/spells), Persistant Spell (Maybe, since he can persistant some low level spells in high level spots), and Divine Metamagic, unless he has enough Cha/turnings to do it twice, which would be pretty cool actually.
Remember you can counterspell a Dispel Magic, which every Wizard and Cleric probably holds onto at least one of prepared.
Secondly, you can't *always* throw a dispel magic at the guy as the first encounter of the day. Your trick might work a few times to catch him off gaurd, yes, but he's *still* a cleric after that. He can still heal, buff, debuff, and hit things. Even if you completely negate this feat combo, all you've done is knock him back down to 'normal' levels.
Is Divine Metamagic strong? Yes, absolutely, because beyond the lower levels Turn Undead sucks unless you start investing heavily into it. It is completely worthless beyond 15 even with the most serious dedication. So towards the second half of a cleric's existance he's sitting on all these turn attempts per day and nothing to do with them, and as such there really is no reason NOT to divine metamagic unless you really need the feat. Especially if you prestige into a class without the turn undead ability but continues spell progression.
Caster level checks, yea for Dispels. But when speaking of 9th level spells the Disjunction doesn't require a check and will fuck the cleric up in other ways as well.
And then the Cleric is down one 9th level spell and... three feats?
But yeah. Probably rocks at lower levels and muscle-oriented fights. A mage a level or two higher than the cleric with Arcane Mastery (take 10 on caster level check) might be particularly devastating, but that's pretty specific.
Maybe it's just my personal experience, but in all 4 of the games I play in, not once has a disjunction been cast. Disjunction is the equivalent of a nuclear bomb in D&D terms for my groups, if the players don't use it, the dms won't, and it's way, way, way worse on the players than on the DM. That notwithstanding, a cleric of mystara could just take the initiate of mystara feat to cast while in an antimagic field and cancel out most disjunctions.
Disjunction sucks. If disjunction read as "suppresses all magic items it successfully dispels for rounds/level" instead of "all your magic swag ceases to function forever" it would be a good spell. Not even npc's will cast it because, odds are, npcs are going to want your treasure just as much as you want theirs, in a realistically ran world anyway.
Caster level checks, yea for Dispels. But when speaking of 9th level spells the Disjunction doesn't require a check and will fuck the cleric up in other ways as well.
Disjunction is broken on either side of the table. It rapidly makes the game "Not Fun" for absolutely everybody involved. This is ignoring the 30+ will saves that every character at the table is going to have to make any time it's cast.
And then the Cleric is down one 9th level spell and... three feats?
But yeah. Probably rocks at lower levels and muscle-oriented fights. A mage a level or two higher than the cleric with Arcane Mastery (take 10 on caster level check) might be particularly devastating, but that's pretty specific.
You might want to investigate the wonders of math for a moment.
Dispel Magic finds it impossible to dispel anything done with a caster level of 20 or higher. Greater dispel magic can't touch a thing that has caster level of 30 or higher. Clerics have a large number of ways to get buffs to their caster levels and it is very possible to have your persistent buffs be completely immune to anything that is not antimagic/disjunction. (Both of which are essentially the nuclear bombs of D&D play. M.A.D. all the way.)
I'll note there are a couple way to eek out a bit more range from the dispels but they're fairly specialized and shouldn't be the answer to what is a tactic that any cleric can choose to pursue.
Nightsticks from Libris Mortis get you extra turning attempts. Which is another reason why DMM is broken (not just persistent). Because without DMM, nightsticks really aren't that "awesome."
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I think you mean DR there but you're exactly right. While SR is a little bit of a problem you really don't care about DR in the slightest.
Speaking of WLD [spoiler:3b4ca9bc17]The Warlock in the group I ran beat the living shit out of Longtail. That's some nice DR 10/Silver...what, no SR? Zot![/spoiler:3b4ca9bc17]
What's untyped damage got to do with DR? Damage Reduction only applies to weapon (or unarmed/natural weapon) attacks anyways, not spells or spell-like abilities.
I really think he meant DR. SR does apply. It's (Sp).
The comparison with DR is because it's a small amount of damage every single turn. It's more similar to the fashion in which weapon damage is done than spell damage. Looking at a Warlock as a kind of specialized archer is more accurate than looking at them like another caster.
Damage Reduction is bypassed just cos it's a spell like ability. Also, reading the DR section again I noticed that even non-magical energy attacks aren't affected by DR.
*stocks up on fire, acid and Britney Spears CDs*
Anything but Warlock level is rapingly bad. I'd go with that.
Now the real question is what level spell if Eldritch blast equal to? Low is good for Empowered and Quicken SLA feats but means a lesser globe and the like completely shut down the Warlock.
I think the 'official' answer is 1st level unless it has a blast shape invocation applied to it. Which is about fifty-fifty good/bad. Granted that's from a fuzzy memory so I wouldn't treat that as gospel.
Errata changed this to pretty much what I described. (Not fuzzy anymore.)
... am I missing the point of this thread?
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No, the system is mechanically weak, but a lto of fun and very flexible. Do not be surprised if he has an answer to everything you throw at him, but he won't be a combat God by any stretch. Well, assuming he either goes straight incarnum class 20 or an incarnum class and sticks to incarnum only prc's.
An eldritch blasts's spell level is equal to the highest level of invocation used (all the invocations have an equivalent spell level). SR is completely moot once you get vitriolic blast, as it adds 2d6 acid damage and ignores SR. Warlock's caster level is his class level.
And lastly, warlocks are bad in the sense that they aren't very good. I love the class myself, but that's just my own personal hatred against limited use things like wands, potions, and spell slots (red mage syndrome). On the power scale, warlocks are decidedly below average to average. Being able to do 14d6 every round (using vitriolic blast anfd a chausible of fell power), really pales in comparrisson to what any other caster could be doing. I mean shoot, a wizard hurls out 12d6 with a second level spell, pre metamagic. Really fun class to play imo though.
LoL: failboattootoot
With that in mind, how else is it broken? (I'm genuinely curious)
Also, I hear a lot of Persistent Spell is very abusable by Clerics. In what way?
Before the correction you could do this:
"I burn a turn attempt to maximize a fireball, even though I don't have the maximize metamagic feat."
Now it's like this:
"OK I get Persistant Spell, Extra Turning, a domain that let's me boost up my cha or add turning, or even just cast Eagle's Splendor based on how that affects the turning rules, this way I have at least 6 turn attempts / day.
Use all my Turn attempts to Divine Metamagic Persistant Spell spells that would normally require 10th, 11th, or beyond spell slots.
At 7th level. This spell lasts on me for the next 24 hours, and tomorrow I can repeat"
A real nice one to do is Divine Power. Which Instead of lasting for 7 rounds, that now lasts for 24 hours, and all it cost you was 1 4th level spell and your turn attempts.
LoL: failboattootoot
This is not a Permanent buff, it's a buff that normally lasts for rounds and extended the entire day.
And then the Cleric is down one 9th level spell and... three feats?
But yeah. Probably rocks at lower levels and muscle-oriented fights. A mage a level or two higher than the cleric with Arcane Mastery (take 10 on caster level check) might be particularly devastating, but that's pretty specific.
Not all feats are useful all of the time. Look at item creation, or disarm/sunder, or spell focus Conjuration. Besides Extend Spell isn't bad.
The Cleric is at worst, down Extra Turning (which hopefully he got from a domain, or didn't need to grab anyways thanks to high cha/domains/spells), Persistant Spell (Maybe, since he can persistant some low level spells in high level spots), and Divine Metamagic, unless he has enough Cha/turnings to do it twice, which would be pretty cool actually.
Remember you can counterspell a Dispel Magic, which every Wizard and Cleric probably holds onto at least one of prepared.
Secondly, you can't *always* throw a dispel magic at the guy as the first encounter of the day. Your trick might work a few times to catch him off gaurd, yes, but he's *still* a cleric after that. He can still heal, buff, debuff, and hit things. Even if you completely negate this feat combo, all you've done is knock him back down to 'normal' levels.
Is Divine Metamagic strong? Yes, absolutely, because beyond the lower levels Turn Undead sucks unless you start investing heavily into it. It is completely worthless beyond 15 even with the most serious dedication. So towards the second half of a cleric's existance he's sitting on all these turn attempts per day and nothing to do with them, and as such there really is no reason NOT to divine metamagic unless you really need the feat. Especially if you prestige into a class without the turn undead ability but continues spell progression.
Maybe it's just my personal experience, but in all 4 of the games I play in, not once has a disjunction been cast. Disjunction is the equivalent of a nuclear bomb in D&D terms for my groups, if the players don't use it, the dms won't, and it's way, way, way worse on the players than on the DM. That notwithstanding, a cleric of mystara could just take the initiate of mystara feat to cast while in an antimagic field and cancel out most disjunctions.
Disjunction sucks. If disjunction read as "suppresses all magic items it successfully dispels for rounds/level" instead of "all your magic swag ceases to function forever" it would be a good spell. Not even npc's will cast it because, odds are, npcs are going to want your treasure just as much as you want theirs, in a realistically ran world anyway.
LoL: failboattootoot
Disjunction is broken on either side of the table. It rapidly makes the game "Not Fun" for absolutely everybody involved. This is ignoring the 30+ will saves that every character at the table is going to have to make any time it's cast.
You might want to investigate the wonders of math for a moment.
Dispel Magic finds it impossible to dispel anything done with a caster level of 20 or higher. Greater dispel magic can't touch a thing that has caster level of 30 or higher. Clerics have a large number of ways to get buffs to their caster levels and it is very possible to have your persistent buffs be completely immune to anything that is not antimagic/disjunction. (Both of which are essentially the nuclear bombs of D&D play. M.A.D. all the way.)
I'll note there are a couple way to eek out a bit more range from the dispels but they're fairly specialized and shouldn't be the answer to what is a tactic that any cleric can choose to pursue.