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Agents of [The Division] - Directive 51 remains in effect

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  • ErlkönigErlkönig Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited January 2017
    I for sure would not snipe people from down the street just because Robot Garrus told me they deserved death.

    If I see some dude forcing others (at gunpoint) to their knees and begins to execute each person, I wouldn't have a problem with sniping from down the street.

    EDIT - in Robot Garrus we trust (hopefully he's not Indoctrinated, though).

    Erlkönig on
    | Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    I mean one of the main issues with the story is that you literally murder people without even giving them an option to surrender. You're basically Judge Dredd. I sniped like 500 people to death just because ISAC made my reticule turn red over them while they were busy shooting the shit with their buddy. What if ISAC had a case of mistaken identity? I just skullfucked an innocent person with a high caliber bullet! And even if ISAC is right, my character never once said "hey, drop those weapons" or anything. Plan A is murder them and Plan B is to murder them and go through their pockets for some new khaki pants. The Division is basically a giant sleeper cell full of people who aren't supposed to form emotional connections because that might interfere with the possible future where they have to be activated in order to murder everyone, and then this game presents that future. See also here.

    Except every single one of those 500 people you sniped would have attacked you as soon as they saw you. Literally the only people you can kill in the game are people that would start shooting at you at the first opportunity they're given.

    It's not an RPG that gives you interesting choices and tries to use those choices to make a point of some kind. It's literally just a shooter with a kinda unique if very implausible setting.

    As far as the article goes I read that back when it was posted. The problem is it's trying really hard to be insightful about a game that has no real interest in insight.

    *edit* Oh and incidentally he states in the article that the rioters are "a majority black" but the reality is almost none of the rioters are black. I was curious about this the first time I read it because the voice acting comes across as basically "generic white guy" so I started checking the faces behind the bandannas. Turns out the rioters are mostly white or hispanic (hard to say since the only thing to go by is skin tone) and I came across almost no black rioters.

    You know that because you're playing a video game, but there's no way your character in the game knows that. Hostile NPCs will always attack you in the video game The Division. Real human beings who have committed crimes will not always attack you as soon as they see you. Even in the context of the game you never ask them if they want to surrender, even after you've pumped forty eight bullets into them and they're likely reconsidering their choice to take on The Terminator with their baseball bat.

    Yeah I mean I don't think anyone's criticism of the game is "this is an RPG that gives you interesting choices and then tries to use those choices to make a point of some kind, and also it has a terrible message." Everyone's criticism is "it's literally just a shooter with a terrible message."

    That's not how insight works! It's possible to be insightful about something with no real interest in insight, and that's not a problem! Donald Trump has no real interest in insight - does that mean it's impossible to be insightful about him? No! I agree this game has no real interest in insight, and if it did it maybe it wouldn't be a fucking deplorable murder simulator, but either way there's nothing stopping people from being insightful about the game. As it stands, the game's as dumb as a stack of bricks, but we can be insightful about things that are as dumb as a stack of bricks.

    If you were a government agent enforcing martial law you would be well within your rights to shoot anyone actively trying to shoot you which covers literally every enemy in the Division. That is the reality of the version of New York that The Division takes place in. No amount of "Well that's how how it would be in real life!" is going to change that.

    Everyone's criticism is "it's literally just a shooter with a terrible message"?

    Great, my response is "no, it's literally a shooter that isn't trying to put forth a message." This game isn't Spec Ops: The Line and it's not trying to be. Could it have had more of a message? Yeah absolutely and that it doesn't go there is a criticism I agree with. But shoehorning in a message in lieu of there being one and then complaining about it strikes me as a pretty big waste of time and energy.

    If someone wants to view the game as a deplorable murder simulator they can totally do that but that's not insightful. Insight implies a deep understanding and The Division lacks the mechanics and material to facilitate a deep understanding. Again, another totally valid criticism of the game.

    Viewing it as a deplorable murder simulator requires ignoring the (very implausible) realities of the setting. If you don't have an answer to "Literally every enemy in the game will try and kill you" then I think we're done here because that's the reality of the setting and I'm not going to agree that shooting people actively trying to kill you counts in any meaningful way as a murder simulator.

  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    If you were a government agent enforcing martial law you would be well within your rights to shoot anyone actively trying to shoot you which covers literally every enemy in the Division.
    Uh, no? I one-shotted lots of people from so far away they never even saw me, let alone actively tried to shoot me. Some of them didn't even have guns! They had baseball bats!
    Everyone's criticism is "it's literally just a shooter with a terrible message"?

    Great, my response is "no, it's literally a shooter that isn't trying to put forth a message."
    I don't give a flying fuck whether it was trying to put forth a message! If someone didn't try to run over my dog, that doesn't change the fact that my dog is dead! The Division imparts a loathsome message, as that Kill Screen article notes, and obviously it wasn't trying because everyone who worked on it wasn't a deplorable fucking dirtbag. But that doesn't mean that they didn't manage to screw the pooch anyways simply by virtue of huffing Tom Clancy paint fumes and not thinking anything through further than "let's make a game where you shoot everyone," which is about as much thought goes into pretty much any AAA title these days in gaming.
    If someone wants to view the game as a deplorable murder simulator they can totally do that but that's not insightful. Insight implies a deep understanding and The Division lacks the mechanics and material to facilitate a deep understanding. Again, another totally valid criticism of the game.
    This is an interesting idea. The game is too shallow to have insights about? That just seems straightforwardly wrong. Here's one insight I had about it: the ideology presented in this game's story is deeply evil! Somehow I managed that despite the shallowness of the game. In fact that shallowness of the game makes it easier to arrive at that insight.
    Viewing it as a deplorable murder simulator requires ignoring the (very implausible) realities of the setting.
    I mean, look, the "realities of the setting" are something the developers made up! They could have made the realities be anything they want and they made it into a game that for this reason imparts a very specific evil ideology! This isn't rocket science.
    If you don't have an answer to "Literally every enemy in the game will try and kill you" then I think we're done here because that's the reality of the setting and I'm not going to agree that shooting people actively trying to kill you counts in any meaningful way as a murder simulator.
    THEY WERE NOT TRYING TO ACTIVELY KILL ME. They were literally just talking with each other in the middle of the street. Their only crime was turning red under my Company of Heroes United States Sniper reticle.

  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    Ok, so until you calm the fuck down a tad I don't think this is going to go anywhere

    See ya around, tycho

  • MortiousMortious The Nightmare Begins Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    If you were a government agent enforcing martial law you would be well within your rights to shoot anyone actively trying to shoot you which covers literally every enemy in the Division.
    Uh, no? I one-shotted lots of people from so far away they never even saw me, let alone actively tried to shoot me. Some of them didn't even have guns! They had baseball bats!
    Everyone's criticism is "it's literally just a shooter with a terrible message"?

    Great, my response is "no, it's literally a shooter that isn't trying to put forth a message."
    I don't give a flying fuck whether it was trying to put forth a message! If someone didn't try to run over my dog, that doesn't change the fact that my dog is dead! The Division imparts a loathsome message, as that Kill Screen article notes, and obviously it wasn't trying because everyone who worked on it wasn't a deplorable fucking dirtbag. But that doesn't mean that they didn't manage to screw the pooch anyways simply by virtue of huffing Tom Clancy paint fumes and not thinking anything through further than "let's make a game where you shoot everyone," which is about as much thought goes into pretty much any AAA title these days in gaming.
    If someone wants to view the game as a deplorable murder simulator they can totally do that but that's not insightful. Insight implies a deep understanding and The Division lacks the mechanics and material to facilitate a deep understanding. Again, another totally valid criticism of the game.
    This is an interesting idea. The game is too shallow to have insights about? That just seems straightforwardly wrong. Here's one insight I had about it: the ideology presented in this game's story is deeply evil! Somehow I managed that despite the shallowness of the game. In fact that shallowness of the game makes it easier to arrive at that insight.
    Viewing it as a deplorable murder simulator requires ignoring the (very implausible) realities of the setting.
    I mean, look, the "realities of the setting" are something the developers made up! They could have made the realities be anything they want and they made it into a game that for this reason imparts a very specific evil ideology! This isn't rocket science.
    If you don't have an answer to "Literally every enemy in the game will try and kill you" then I think we're done here because that's the reality of the setting and I'm not going to agree that shooting people actively trying to kill you counts in any meaningful way as a murder simulator.
    THEY WERE NOT TRYING TO ACTIVELY KILL ME. They were literally just talking with each other in the middle of the street. Their only crime was turning red under my Company of Heroes United States Sniper reticle.

    I feel you're ready way to much into it.

    These things are limitations of having an open world game, they're not an ideology being esposed by the game developers.

    And those guys with a baseball bat can take 50+ rounds from an LMG, while I can only take 2 hits from a baseball bat. If one of them had an orange watch this whole New York thing would have been cleared up by now.

    Move to New Zealand
    It’s not a very important country most of the time
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
  • ErlkönigErlkönig Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    If you don't have an answer to "Literally every enemy in the game will try and kill you" then I think we're done here because that's the reality of the setting and I'm not going to agree that shooting people actively trying to kill you counts in any meaningful way as a murder simulator.
    THEY WERE NOT TRYING TO ACTIVELY KILL ME. They were literally just talking with each other in the middle of the street. Their only crime was turning red under my Company of Heroes United States Sniper reticle.

    I just want to point this out about the bolded bit: yes, they were just talking with each other in the middle of the street...about killing random, unarmed civilians in the past, now, or planning to in the near future.

    However, if you used explosives on said loot pinatas who had defenseless animals in the blast radius, then yes, you're a heartless monster.

    The funny part of all this is that I've had this discussion before in the Battlefield thread regarding Hardline. So yeah, this is all too familiar ground being tread here.

    | Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
  • ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    I recall most conversations being about what loot the civvie corpse on the ground has on it.

    PSN: Honishimo Steam UPlay: Arthil
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    Guys I'm not talking about the ones having a conversation about the person they just murdered, I'm talking about the other ones.

  • darkmayodarkmayo Registered User regular
    Guys I'm not talking about the ones having a conversation about the person they just murdered, I'm talking about the other ones.

    I felt a little weird about the Riker talking about his daughter.

    Switch SW-6182-1526-0041
  • EtiowsaEtiowsa Registered User regular
    edited January 2017
    darkmayo wrote: »
    Guys I'm not talking about the ones having a conversation about the person they just murdered, I'm talking about the other ones.

    I felt a little weird about the Riker talking about his daughter.

    I did until he saw me and shot me in the chest. At that point you get what's comin to ya. And honestly, if he cared that much he would've done what the rest of the prisoners did and head home.

    Etiowsa on
  • OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
    I for sure would not snipe people from down the street just because Robot Garrus told me they deserved death.

    Heck I wouldn't do it if actual Garrus told me

    He's the goddamn space Punisher, he's not exactly level headed

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    PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
  • TimFijiTimFiji Beast Lord Halfway2AnywhereRegistered User regular
    Geez, I think I'm playing a different game

    Switch: SW-2322-2047-3148 Steam: Archpriest
      Selling Board Games for Medical Bills
    • finnithfinnith ... TorontoRegistered User regular
      Garrus seemed pretty ok with vigilante justice, but we're getting off topic here.

      I tried incursions by the way, and I had a lot of trouble with both Falcon Lost and Clear Sky. My weapon DPS is 230K/215K, but it seems like there's way too many guys for me to kill, and they do a lot more damage than I can mitigate or heal up. Any tips, or should I just get better gear?

      Bnet: CavilatRest#1874
      Steam: CavilatRest
    • OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
      I'm having some fun with this game but occasionally I get ultra-fucked by a mission and have to group up

      So far the most fun I've had is in the Dark Zone, which I guess isn't news to anyone but it's genuinely tense and exciting and an interesting dynamic running into someone and grouping up and running around avoiding other players while we try to fight NPCs

      I'm level 20 so I'm sort of higher level now, if anyone ever wants to group up for shenanigans I'm Olivaw on Uplay

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    • Cobalt60Cobalt60 regular Registered User regular
      edited January 2017
      finnith wrote: »
      Garrus seemed pretty ok with vigilante justice, but we're getting off topic here.

      I tried incursions by the way, and I had a lot of trouble with both Falcon Lost and Clear Sky. My weapon DPS is 230K/215K, but it seems like there's way too many guys for me to kill, and they do a lot more damage than I can mitigate or heal up. Any tips, or should I just get better gear?

      Incursions are designed for full teams of 4 so you'll need friends or matchmaking.

      Cobalt60 on
    • MirkelMirkel FinlandRegistered User regular
      Cobalt60 wrote: »
      You are an American age
      finnith wrote: »
      Garrus seemed pretty ok with vigilante justice, but we're getting off topic here.

      I tried incursions by the way, and I had a lot of trouble with both Falcon Lost and Clear Sky. My weapon DPS is 230K/215K, but it seems like there's way too many guys for me to kill, and they do a lot more damage than I can mitigate or heal up. Any tips, or should I just get better gear?

      Incursions are designed for full teams of 4 so you'll need friends or matchmaking.

      What he said. Some of them spawn infinite enemies and I think at least one has a door or something that requires two people to open, so not really meant to be solo'd.

    • EtiowsaEtiowsa Registered User regular
      The incursions aren't very good. The mechanics aren't interesting and their method of creating "difficulty" boils down to spamming grenades at you. Maybe the DLC one is better, but the first two are trash. With the changes to loot there isn't really any reason to do them unless you really want the cosmetics they drop.

    • McHogerMcHoger Registered User regular
      After playing a bunch of Hitman, I get nervous not being able to crouch walk in this game.

    • DietarySupplementDietarySupplement Still not approved by the FDA Dublin, OHRegistered User regular
      McHoger wrote: »
      After playing a bunch of Hitman, I get nervous not being able to crouch walk in this game.

      If I had any complaints about the game, I wish the game had more visible meters/metrics as to who can see you and who holds the hate on mob groups. There's a noise that plays when you aggro a group, but I wish there were visible indicators as well.

    • Redcoat-13Redcoat-13 Registered User regular
      I don't really know what I'm doing wrong on the PS4. I've kept the game up to date, but over Christmas I decided to try things out for the first time in 5-6+ months, and it was a job to actually log in. Then when I eventually get in and go to the new bit of the base to have a look at the extra content, the Underground and Survival, despite having a season pass, they aren't downloaded.

      So I tell the game to download this content, and here I am, still a week later, and I still can't get into Survival. I can queue up for it sure, but then I just sit watching the connection screen. Re-logging in, it asks me if I want to resume the survival game I'm in, I say yes, and it's only at this point it tells me it still hasn't downloaded.

      I then get a screen with a nice orange bar, that now sits at 95% never budging. I must have kept the game on for 2 hours last night and yet no progress was made.

      I like to think I'm not an idiot, but I must be doing something wrong because I can't believe it's trying to be this obnoxious.

      PSN Fleety2009
    • ErlkönigErlkönig Seattle, WARegistered User regular
      McHoger wrote: »
      After playing a bunch of Hitman, I get nervous not being able to crouch walk in this game.

      If I had any complaints about the game, I wish the game had more visible meters/metrics as to who can see you and who holds the hate on mob groups. There's a noise that plays when you aggro a group, but I wish there were visible indicators as well.

      There is: a flashing red triangle with a ! inside. Of course, it only pops up upon initial aggro and doesn't show up again...but it's technically still there.

      | Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
    • SatsumomoSatsumomo Rated PG! Registered User regular
      Maybe I didn't understand the story right but...
      ...isn't Aaron Keener's main reason to go rogue is exactly that? That you just blindly follow orders, kill everyone on sight? It seems that at some point it is a bit intentional so Aaron can give his speech and make you realize you're just a pawn?

    • MortiousMortious The Nightmare Begins Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
      Satsumomo wrote: »
      Maybe I didn't understand the story right but...
      ...isn't Aaron Keener's main reason to go rogue is exactly that? That you just blindly follow orders, kill everyone on sight? It seems that at some point it is a bit intentional so Aaron can give his speech and make you realize you're just a pawn?
      He's also a crazy person, so you can't trust his interpretations of the events.

      Move to New Zealand
      It’s not a very important country most of the time
      http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
    • AuburnTigerAuburnTiger Registered User regular
      How's the PA Xbox playerbase for this? Still strong?

      Thinking about picking it up since it's on sale. Does the edition with the season pass include the new survival dlc?

      XBL: Flex MythoMass
    • EtiowsaEtiowsa Registered User regular
      Satsumomo wrote: »
      Maybe I didn't understand the story right but...
      ...isn't Aaron Keener's main reason to go rogue is exactly that? That you just blindly follow orders, kill everyone on sight? It seems that at some point it is a bit intentional so Aaron can give his speech and make you realize you're just a pawn?

      I think you missed some stuff.
      Keener's beef is basically 'how dare the idiots in command not listen to me. If I was in charge everything would go perfectly since I'm so intelligent and awesome.' He's on a power play, just like everyone you fight in the game. Like, he steals the virus research and equipment so he can make an better one to hold the world ransom with. He's a shitheel.

    • SnicketysnickSnicketysnick The Greatest Hype Man in WesterosRegistered User regular
      edited January 2017
      The main problem with that bit of the story is that it's buried in phone logs and ECHOs, so it's easily missed if you're not hoovering them up and just powering through the story missions.

      (I also picked this up over Xmas and I think I like it a lot, Gun Diablo is something I can get on board with it seems :+1: )

      Snicketysnick on
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    • EtiowsaEtiowsa Registered User regular
      The main problem with that bit of the story is that it's buried in phone logs and ECHOs, so it's easily missed if you're not hoovering them up and just powering through the story missions.

      (I also picked this up over Xmas and I think I like it a lot, Gun Diablo is something I can get on board with it seems :+1: )

      Well, the first time you see him he's executing dudes tied to chairs, so you're not really supposed to form a positive opinion of him in any event.

    • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
      The government did screw up and get all the civilians he was trying to rescue killed, along with many of the First Wave Division Agents. The fact that he would decide only he could be trusted to do the right thing was 100% predictable based on the horrible fascist idea of Directive 51 to begin with. Give a guy absolute power and few peers while specifically choosing people with take charge personalities and low empathy? Uh yeah, the results are obvious.

    • SatsumomoSatsumomo Rated PG! Registered User regular
      Thanks for clearing it up, I definitely didn't pick almost any Intel near the end of the game.

    • AstaleAstale Registered User regular
      The government did screw up and get all the civilians he was trying to rescue killed, along with many of the First Wave Division Agents. The fact that he would decide only he could be trusted to do the right thing was 100% predictable based on the horrible fascist idea of Directive 51 to begin with. Give a guy absolute power and few peers while specifically choosing people with take charge personalities and low empathy? Uh yeah, the results are obvious.

      Eh, they didn't screw up, he just wanted to blame them.

      The situation went to total crap, and they decided to pull out of the worst of it (the darkzone) rather than send even more into the meat grinder. That the retreat was so chaotic wasn't really anyone in particular's fault, and the loss of the civvies they were guarding only truly mattered to him because he used it to fuel the narrative in his head of "I'm the best, and if they just kept sending people into the meat grinder, I would have lead them to victory!". And his reasoning when it comes to working with the factions and hunting down agents is flimsy at best.

      Seriously, read the guy's bio. They made him an arrogant day trader (yeah, not sure how that translates into secret agent, but okay), just to make him an even bigger douchebag.


      They *could* write someone into that role decently, but Keener is just bland Douchebag McGee material.

    • AstaleAstale Registered User regular
      The fact that the cleaners are the best written faction, a bunch of sanitation workers setting fire to everything, is pretty telling.

    • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
      The way I took the situation, Keener was correct. It makes for a more interesting villain if command really did leave him out to dry and he took radical steps from there. All the intel on him says he's extremely good at predictions and strategy, but some guy on a computer reads the situation at the DZ (an area with canonically bad reception, mind) more accurately than he does on the ground? I don't think so.

    • finnithfinnith ... TorontoRegistered User regular
      I've been running a D3-NC set with ballistic shield as it's apparently the only way I can keep from dying and I have to say it's pretty fun. Being able to facetank hundreds of rounds of machine gun bullets is nice, and it's funny seeing your allies just run up to guys and shotgun those same enemies int eh face.

      Bnet: CavilatRest#1874
      Steam: CavilatRest
    • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
      Some random lore things to keep in mind, in no particular order.

      Manhattan was under Martial Law, but it failed. This is, in part, why the Agents were activated.

      The Agents have an obscene amount of power. They are basically Judge Dredd. However they only get activated when every other tool the Gov't has has failed and the situation has become wildly out of control. The Division is literally a method of last resort. Even then their job isn't to fix the problem, but to do what they see fit to prevent things from getting worse. In general anyway. Obviously the PC is The Hero so you do a little bit more than most Agents would.

      This next part I'm fuzzy on. It's been awhile since I played and even back then I remember this being kind of vague.

      As I recall the rest of the country (if not the world) has been hit by this virus. Thanks to the hard lessons learned in Manhattan the Gov't is able to take far more effective steps in managing the crisis in other parts of the country. It's still no picnic, but the Gov't is able to at least prevent the absolute anarchy that is Manhattan from replaying elsewhere. Though this endeavor has greatly strained Gov't services leaving them unable to take care of the horror show going on in Manhattan. Hence Agents being activated.


      Heh, and on a random note;

      From a real world perspective the Agents themselves would absolutely not be sociopaths and by and large I doubt many of them would be psychopaths either. That's not to say there wouldn't be a few psychopaths in their ranks. The first category would be wildly incapable of the job and the latter aren't known for their willingness in putting their lives in danger for a greater good/patriotism/something bigger than themselves/in general.

      From a video game perspective however. . . eh, murder-hobo is practically the number one profession of video game protagonists. :razz:

      A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
    • EtiowsaEtiowsa Registered User regular
      I'm pretty sure everything is going to shit actually. I remember hearing a line about nobody knowing where the president is or something.

    • MirkelMirkel FinlandRegistered User regular
      Etiowsa wrote: »
      I'm pretty sure everything is going to shit actually. I remember hearing a line about nobody knowing where the president is or something.

      If everything was going to shit, there would be no constant supply drops.

    • OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
      Okay

      This late game stuff in the Dark Zone is real fucking frustrating

      I might need someone to group with because trying to run solo in there fucking sucks shit

      signature-deffo.jpg
      PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
    • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
      Olivaw wrote: »
      Okay

      This late game stuff in the Dark Zone is real fucking frustrating

      I might need someone to group with because trying to run solo in there fucking sucks shit

      It took a lot of learning the map/spawns before I was ok with the north DZ solo

      I'm at the point now where I can pretty much do any DZ quest solo without any trouble rogues or no rogues but I still don't spend time there outside the dailies because it's really only fun with a group

    • SatsumomoSatsumomo Rated PG! Registered User regular
      You can see rogues on the map, their icons will briefly ping every few seconds, so always make sure you aren't walking to where they are.

    • ZetxZetx 🐧 Registered User regular
      I recently got back into this. Was at 30 when I left, hit WT 5 and finishing up some side missions now. From the last few pages, I guess only a few people here play now?

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