Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
If someone's in your system and wants to do it, they can.
Someone could also figure out how to hack a Nokia 3315 and read messages because of how ancient the security on them will be. But that's not going to be very useful, to spend all that time and effort to read the text messages of seven people.
The same principle applies. There is nothing to be gained from expending effort to take control of a few Rift cameras when there are plenty of other widespread devices to target.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Real talk, Dhalphir; Is there any complaint, issue or problem with the Rift, real or imagined, that you wouldn't vigorously defend as not being a legitimate complaint, issue or problem?
Tell you what, you give me a complaint that isn't nitpicking differences, a subjective belief issue, or an outright falsehood, and I'll let you know.
Dhalphir, Security Through Obscurity is a well known concept and not a good defense. Macs still get viruses despite Windows being a much larger marketshare.
It doesn't matter if only a few people have a thing and thus it's not a big target vector. It's still a target. I don't understand why you seem to be so vehemently defending it. It's a small thing, sure. But it is a thing.
Hackers like to install linux and doom on like, calculators and keurigs. If it's there, someone will try to hack it.
And regardless of all of that, it's still a concern! Even if I've got the only rift in the world, I still don't want cameras pointed at me like that because who knows what could happen.
edit: What if Facebook pushed an Oculus update that allowed them to use your cameras and the microphone for data collection? Just a normal update but now that's also in the T&C. Wouldn't that be a big problem?
Just because not many people own a rift doesn't make it not a concern.
SniperGuy on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited January 2017
There were 75 million MacOS users in 2009. I can't find any figures any more recent than that.
Even if I've got the only rift in the world, I still don't want cameras pointed at me like that because who knows what could happen.
If you go through life worrying about every single thing that could happen with absolutely no moderating influence of what is likely to happen, you're going to have a shitty life.
There were 1.25 billion Windows PCs worldwide in 2011. There are currently 400 million Windows 10 users alone. Maybe a few hundred thousand Rift users tops, amongst all of those.
Do you spend much time worrying about being struck by lightning? Having a building accidentally demolished while you're still inside it? Both of those are orders of magnitude more likely than any negative consequences from your Rift being a camera.
Dhalphir on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
@SniperGuy do you cover the camera on your Vive with a piece of tape?
SniperGuy do you cover the camera on your Vive with a piece of tape?
I don't have a vive. Still waiting on a revision or two. Also money, that's a big one. But I do unplug my Webcam and don't make fun of people who do cover their cameras because it is a legitimate security concern. Camera hacking has absolutely happened. I don't need someone sharing pictures of me in my underwear around the Internet. And having it just be me and six other people won't really make me feel better.
If a hacker can hack something, they will. Absolutely. And from my googling getting the feed from that camera doesn't seem all that difficult!
You seem awfully defensive about this thing people have said is a small problem. A problem, yes. But not a huge one. But you seem to think it just isn't a problem at all? It doesn't matter in the slightest that there are other bigger security issues in the world. We're talking about this device and the security issues that it has. If the rift becomes super popular, do you think people would want to put Facebook cameras in their living room? I get that you don't seem to care but others do and you shouldn't just dismiss their privacy concerns out of hand.
edit: And i'd probably just store my vive facedown. The camera is on the headset itself, yeah? No reason to cover it with tape when putting it face down is fairly easy.
edit: What if Facebook pushed an Oculus update that allowed them to use your cameras and the microphone for data collection? Just a normal update but now that's also in the T&C. Wouldn't that be a big problem?
The first thing people did when they installed the Oculus software is watched for communications between it and Facebook. While there was some (obviously), there was nothing nefarious by any means. If Facebook did this the Rift community as a whole would know. The amount of data being passed would immediately show up as red flags.
Facebook is not going to push an update to watch you while you play your Rift. No, I mean seriously. Even if they didn't think that they would get caught immediately, doing something like this would immediately kill the Rift as a serious thing they're selling. Contrary to what you might think, there ARE some smart people at Facebook.
Anyway, I tend to agree with Dalphir in general, as far as an attack vector goes, the Rift is an extremely poor one. Could it happen? Sure, but if an attacker is in a position to go that route then they already have full control of your system anyway. Them watching you through a somewhat shitty IR camera is probably nothing compared to everything else they already have.
Besides that, everyone already knew this was an IR camera. There's no surprises here. Take whatever precautions you think are necessary but I'm not really sure what this guy was aiming to achieve? Awareness that your IR camera is...an IR camera? Okay, thanks!
Eh, even my cursory googling shows people saying stuff like "it can maybe see the sun if you point it that way" because of the filter over the camera. But that black and white picture is looking pretty damn sharp to me. I think it is definitely something worth mentioning, just not a huge deal.
My example there wasn't something I think they'll actually do because people would probably riot, but more of a potential reason to express concern now. Given what Facebook has done with their phone app I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they tried something like that though, especially since other devices do similar stuff already. It wouldn't be a matter of them getting caught, it'd be pretty blatant in the terms and conditions, just like it is on the other devices that do that kind of thing. And I believe people should know everything their devices can do.
I do agree it's a poor attack vector, but it definitely does exist. I think saying it shouldn't be a concern at all because there's other concerns is just kinda silly.
SniperGuy on
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Casually HardcoreOnce an Asshole. Trying to be better.Registered Userregular
Wow not just unplug the camera?
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited January 2017
If an attacker has enough access to your machine to be able to modify the Rift camera driver to allow them to extract the raw feed, they can do much worse things than video you in your boxers. They just wouldn't bother once they got to that point. They'd turn your PC into part of a botnet instead.
If you're actively using the Rift, they wouldn't be able to extract the raw feed without your knowledge. And the Rift camera has a hardwired activity LED so you'd know if you were not using the Rift too.
If an attacker has enough access to your machine to be able to modify the Rift camera driver to allow them to extract the raw feed, they can do much worse things than video you in your boxers. They just wouldn't bother once they got to that point. They'd turn your PC into part of a botnet instead.
If you're actively using the Rift, they wouldn't be able to extract the raw feed without your knowledge. And the Rift camera has a hardwired activity LED so you'd know if you were not using the Rift too.
I mean I consider a video of me in my boxers to be pretty bad personally. Personal photos of me naked circulating the internet would be a much larger concern to me than my PC being part of a botnet, which is also something my suite of anti-malware and anti-virus would likely detect. But I can remove and stop that, I can't stop a picture of me going around the internet.
I mean hell, I change clothes in front of my PC. That would not be fun to deal with. (edit: And given my choice of career, I could basically be out of a job forever if something like that happened. So maybe a bigger concern for me than most.)
A lot of webcams have activity lights but those can also be disabled. I'm not sure if the rift's can but I don't see why not if they're linked to the camera turning on. I'd be interested in reading about that if you have a source.
Regardless, still a concern, even if it's lower on the list than other concerns.
I mean I do this on my webcam because it's pretty easy, or I point it out of the way, but I don't particularly like having to do this, takes up a USB slot in the front. I like those laptops with a little slider that covers the camera.
SniperGuy on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited January 2017
You'd need to be able to access the firmware of the camera to disable the LED, unless it's a hardware light (which it may be).
Again, not impossible remotely, but if they have enough access to your PC to alter firmware, they have enough access to get absolutely everything you do on your PC, and if an attacker taking pictures of you is of greater concern than an attacker having your online banking details, I think you have your priorities wrong. If you think your PC is vulnerable to that kind of attack, you shouldn't be worrying about turning off your webcam, you should be disconnecting your PC from the Internet until you secure it properly.
And if your PC is secure from someone hacking in to get your banking information, then ipso facto it is also secure from someone accessing the Rift camera.
Let me stress this point - the Rift camera is NOT an attack vector. Someone cannot use the camera to get access to your PC, they can only affect the camera if they already have access to your PC, and you should be preventing access to your PC for a thousand valid reasons that don't involve the fucking Rift camera!
Dhalphir on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Someone else please feel free to make the next thread, I didn't really do much with the OP last time and it's not especially fair to you guys to have a lazy OP.
Ooh, we hit 100 VR pages. I'd do the next op but it'd be heavily biased towards the PSVR
Also the camera discussion seems a little ridiculous from my perspective. In my house I've got the Playstation Camera, a webcam on my laptop, a webcam on my desktop, a phone, previously a security camera, my wife's phone and my daughter's tablet that all have cameras attached to them. If someone gained access to any one of those devices I think my last concern would be regarding them snapping pictures of me chilling in my living room.
Anyway, given it's the last page of the VR thread I vote we finish on a higher note:
RESIDENT EVIL VR is fucking awesome, yet terrifying.
I've nearly finished Until Dawn and it's definitely my GOTY.
I can't wait to get stuck in to Batman VR.
My daughter (ignoring all safety warnings about VR being for 12+) absolutely loves 360 videos of disney and sky diving.
I hope the next thread has a pleasing title to look at for however many months it will be around. Even having it be heavily PSVR biased would be a refreshing change of pace.
You'd need to be able to access the firmware of the camera to disable the LED, unless it's a hardware light (which it may be).
Again, not impossible remotely, but if they have enough access to your PC to alter firmware, they have enough access to get absolutely everything you do on your PC, and if an attacker taking pictures of you is of greater concern than an attacker having your online banking details, I think you have your priorities wrong. If you think your PC is vulnerable to that kind of attack, you shouldn't be worrying about turning off your webcam, you should be disconnecting your PC from the Internet until you secure it properly.
And if your PC is secure from someone hacking in to get your banking information, then ipso facto it is also secure from someone accessing the Rift camera.
Let me stress this point - the Rift camera is NOT an attack vector. Someone cannot use the camera to get access to your PC, they can only affect the camera if they already have access to your PC, and you should be preventing access to your PC for a thousand valid reasons that don't involve the fucking Rift camera!
In a world where reputable websites can give you crypto locker due to accidental advertising infections, or Street fighter V gets an update that installs a root kit on your pc, I do not think it is as cut and dry as you think.
But it seems we will have to agree to disagree on this point. I am glad someone is working to make people aware it is a potential issue.
I have some ideas for an OP; I think I'll put one together this morning. I'll need some help populating the software section for the Rift and PSVR once it's up, though.
I have some ideas for an OP; I think I'll put one together this morning. I'll need some help populating the software section for the Rift and PSVR once it's up, though.
Posts
Someone could also figure out how to hack a Nokia 3315 and read messages because of how ancient the security on them will be. But that's not going to be very useful, to spend all that time and effort to read the text messages of seven people.
The same principle applies. There is nothing to be gained from expending effort to take control of a few Rift cameras when there are plenty of other widespread devices to target.
Tell you what, you give me a complaint that isn't nitpicking differences, a subjective belief issue, or an outright falsehood, and I'll let you know.
It doesn't matter if only a few people have a thing and thus it's not a big target vector. It's still a target. I don't understand why you seem to be so vehemently defending it. It's a small thing, sure. But it is a thing.
Hackers like to install linux and doom on like, calculators and keurigs. If it's there, someone will try to hack it.
And regardless of all of that, it's still a concern! Even if I've got the only rift in the world, I still don't want cameras pointed at me like that because who knows what could happen.
edit: What if Facebook pushed an Oculus update that allowed them to use your cameras and the microphone for data collection? Just a normal update but now that's also in the T&C. Wouldn't that be a big problem?
Just because not many people own a rift doesn't make it not a concern.
If you go through life worrying about every single thing that could happen with absolutely no moderating influence of what is likely to happen, you're going to have a shitty life.
There were 1.25 billion Windows PCs worldwide in 2011. There are currently 400 million Windows 10 users alone. Maybe a few hundred thousand Rift users tops, amongst all of those.
Do you spend much time worrying about being struck by lightning? Having a building accidentally demolished while you're still inside it? Both of those are orders of magnitude more likely than any negative consequences from your Rift being a camera.
I don't have a vive. Still waiting on a revision or two. Also money, that's a big one. But I do unplug my Webcam and don't make fun of people who do cover their cameras because it is a legitimate security concern. Camera hacking has absolutely happened. I don't need someone sharing pictures of me in my underwear around the Internet. And having it just be me and six other people won't really make me feel better.
If a hacker can hack something, they will. Absolutely. And from my googling getting the feed from that camera doesn't seem all that difficult!
You seem awfully defensive about this thing people have said is a small problem. A problem, yes. But not a huge one. But you seem to think it just isn't a problem at all? It doesn't matter in the slightest that there are other bigger security issues in the world. We're talking about this device and the security issues that it has. If the rift becomes super popular, do you think people would want to put Facebook cameras in their living room? I get that you don't seem to care but others do and you shouldn't just dismiss their privacy concerns out of hand.
edit: And i'd probably just store my vive facedown. The camera is on the headset itself, yeah? No reason to cover it with tape when putting it face down is fairly easy.
The first thing people did when they installed the Oculus software is watched for communications between it and Facebook. While there was some (obviously), there was nothing nefarious by any means. If Facebook did this the Rift community as a whole would know. The amount of data being passed would immediately show up as red flags.
Facebook is not going to push an update to watch you while you play your Rift. No, I mean seriously. Even if they didn't think that they would get caught immediately, doing something like this would immediately kill the Rift as a serious thing they're selling. Contrary to what you might think, there ARE some smart people at Facebook.
Anyway, I tend to agree with Dalphir in general, as far as an attack vector goes, the Rift is an extremely poor one. Could it happen? Sure, but if an attacker is in a position to go that route then they already have full control of your system anyway. Them watching you through a somewhat shitty IR camera is probably nothing compared to everything else they already have.
Besides that, everyone already knew this was an IR camera. There's no surprises here. Take whatever precautions you think are necessary but I'm not really sure what this guy was aiming to achieve? Awareness that your IR camera is...an IR camera? Okay, thanks!
My example there wasn't something I think they'll actually do because people would probably riot, but more of a potential reason to express concern now. Given what Facebook has done with their phone app I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they tried something like that though, especially since other devices do similar stuff already. It wouldn't be a matter of them getting caught, it'd be pretty blatant in the terms and conditions, just like it is on the other devices that do that kind of thing. And I believe people should know everything their devices can do.
I do agree it's a poor attack vector, but it definitely does exist. I think saying it shouldn't be a concern at all because there's other concerns is just kinda silly.
If you're actively using the Rift, they wouldn't be able to extract the raw feed without your knowledge. And the Rift camera has a hardwired activity LED so you'd know if you were not using the Rift too.
I mean I consider a video of me in my boxers to be pretty bad personally. Personal photos of me naked circulating the internet would be a much larger concern to me than my PC being part of a botnet, which is also something my suite of anti-malware and anti-virus would likely detect. But I can remove and stop that, I can't stop a picture of me going around the internet.
I mean hell, I change clothes in front of my PC. That would not be fun to deal with. (edit: And given my choice of career, I could basically be out of a job forever if something like that happened. So maybe a bigger concern for me than most.)
A lot of webcams have activity lights but those can also be disabled. I'm not sure if the rift's can but I don't see why not if they're linked to the camera turning on. I'd be interested in reading about that if you have a source.
Regardless, still a concern, even if it's lower on the list than other concerns.
I mean I do this on my webcam because it's pretty easy, or I point it out of the way, but I don't particularly like having to do this, takes up a USB slot in the front. I like those laptops with a little slider that covers the camera.
Again, not impossible remotely, but if they have enough access to your PC to alter firmware, they have enough access to get absolutely everything you do on your PC, and if an attacker taking pictures of you is of greater concern than an attacker having your online banking details, I think you have your priorities wrong. If you think your PC is vulnerable to that kind of attack, you shouldn't be worrying about turning off your webcam, you should be disconnecting your PC from the Internet until you secure it properly.
And if your PC is secure from someone hacking in to get your banking information, then ipso facto it is also secure from someone accessing the Rift camera.
Let me stress this point - the Rift camera is NOT an attack vector. Someone cannot use the camera to get access to your PC, they can only affect the camera if they already have access to your PC, and you should be preventing access to your PC for a thousand valid reasons that don't involve the fucking Rift camera!
Also the camera discussion seems a little ridiculous from my perspective. In my house I've got the Playstation Camera, a webcam on my laptop, a webcam on my desktop, a phone, previously a security camera, my wife's phone and my daughter's tablet that all have cameras attached to them. If someone gained access to any one of those devices I think my last concern would be regarding them snapping pictures of me chilling in my living room.
Anyway, given it's the last page of the VR thread I vote we finish on a higher note:
RESIDENT EVIL VR is fucking awesome, yet terrifying.
I've nearly finished Until Dawn and it's definitely my GOTY.
I can't wait to get stuck in to Batman VR.
My daughter (ignoring all safety warnings about VR being for 12+) absolutely loves 360 videos of disney and sky diving.
PSN: SirGrinchX
Oculus Rift: Sir_Grinch
In a world where reputable websites can give you crypto locker due to accidental advertising infections, or Street fighter V gets an update that installs a root kit on your pc, I do not think it is as cut and dry as you think.
But it seems we will have to agree to disagree on this point. I am glad someone is working to make people aware it is a potential issue.
And i still can't wait to play superhot in Vr
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
Argh, I've just posted this totally unbiased op:
http://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/209405/virtual-reality/p1?new=1
Feel free to get it closed though and pinch any of the PSVR stuff
PSN: SirGrinchX
Oculus Rift: Sir_Grinch