In Venezuela, self-sufficiency is making a comeback due to the government being too strong to collapse but too weak to provide food. The problem is that people with food tend to get it taken from them by the strong.
The Ranger manual has a good section on survival but most of the manual is tactics and military strategy. I picked up the SAS Survival Handbook a while back and it's got color illustrations of edible and poisonous plants for different biomes, which was nice. Really though, anything you buy is going to have the same info- how to build different kinds of fires, where to find food, how to build shelters, etc.
I have this book as well and do recommend it!
And even though I agree with most of what @hsu has said, watching this guy's youtube channel is just plain old fun and interesting: Primitive Technology. Check out his Forge Blower video for instance. He is darn good.
Basar on
i live in a country with a batshit crazy president and no, english is not my first language
There are a few manuals on how to kill/clean various animals in as efficient and humane way as possible. It's a grim business, but knowing that catfish can fuck up your day, scent glands can ruin meat and what the most nutrient / vitamin / calorie dense things on specific animals is a pretty useful thing. There are also animals to avoid because of health and safety concerns. I can't say I recall what the guides I used to have were called, I got them at a garage sale when I was a kid and into camping and such. I'm sure amateurhour probably knows of several.
One for animals local to your region, another for plants/edibles in weather-proof format if you can get it (like the kindle in a good bag/case mentioned above)
Edit: Some people get a little crazy with the wrong things, in my opinion. Basic medical knowledge, some sort of antibiotics and plan for clean water/shelter/fire is worth a hell of a lot more than a cache of guns and MRE's. It's difficult sometimes to find disaster preparation stuff that isn't just an avenue for someone's personal fetish (bunker/gun porn for example)
All of this is true. Unless you live in a bunker compound on 100 acres having 30 guns and 20,000 rounds of ammo does you dick in regards to long term survival.
A .22 with 1000 rounds weighs nothing, will last for a decade in terms of ammo usage, and can take pretty much any game on the North American continent up to a deer.
Learning edible plants is smart but tricky. The basics are chicken of the sea (tree mushrooms, bright orangeish/pink), polk lettuce, and onions. Toward the ocean you've got seaweed and kelp but it's REALLY salty so fresh water is must. Anything past that requires HEAVY knowledge and someone to show you what to and not to eat before you try it.
You're not really going to screw up with rabbits, squirrel, or bream/bluegill/bass when it comes to fish as far as danger goes. Anything past that you should learn their defense mechanism in advance so you don't end up on the receiving end of it.
I'll put together a book list along with my gear list tomorrow. I just got back from the woods today. Tried to make a flint knife which I broke in half (but that gave me a nice shard which could be used to skin small game or strike against my knife to start a fire, so I put it in my pack) and skinned/processed two deer (about 80lbs of meat)
Someone mentioned HAM radio. Personally I haven't messed with it but I've got a couple of CB radios and I don't know MORSE code by heart but since it takes up no space I keep a MORSE alphabet in my bug out bag. It's not just a radio that can use MORSE, a signal mirror or flashlight can too.
Ranger manuals are good, and if you end up getting a paracord bracelet or necklance get one with Ranger beads. They're abacus style knots you can use to measure distance. Like every 100 steps you move a knot up and that's 100 yards, so you know how far you've traveled.
Chicken of the Wood!
Great stuff. Tastes (after cooking in butter or oil) like slightly lemony chicken only FAR less dense.
Maitake, cauliflower mushroom, morels, and oysters are a few others that are fairly easy to identify and taste great!
I have an aversion to military backpacks that edge a little too close to tacticool. That pack you have for primitive looks great. Could it be secured below a more discreet pack with better shoulder straps/support and used as an accessory bag for a smaller camping bag?
Opinions on Vitamin supplements? Also wondering what type of fishing rod people who go for weekend trips carry to keep things light.
Edit: I'll move to the camping thread in DND.
dispatch.o on
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amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
I have an aversion to military backpacks that edge a little too close to tacticool. That pack you have for primitive looks great. Could it be secured below a more discreet pack with better shoulder straps/support and used as an accessory bag for a smaller camping bag?
Opinions on Vitamin supplements? Also wondering what type of fishing rod people who go for weekend trips carry to keep things light.
re: fishing rods. I've got an old cane pole that breaks down into two pieces for the primitive pack and I've got an ugli stick that breaks down into four pieces with a small spincaster reel for the bug out or camping pack.
I'm not sure if the P58 Rucksack can be modified. I mean I'm sure it CAN, but I've never messed with it. It doesn't have the lower back support of modern packs but with the bedroll secured under it, it does an okay job. I wouldn't want to carry it on a 12 mile hike but for going a few miles into the woods it suits me well.
My Paratus back is definitely "tacticool" but I mean I figure God forbid I'm actually using it for its intended purpose I won't care what other people think of it : )
Personally I'd shy away from vitamins, especially fat soluble vitamins, because of the risk of taking too many or not getting enough fat in your diet. I've heard expert speakers go both ways here but I mean there are so many nutrients in outdoor vegetation like wild onion, poke lettuce, pine needles, etc that no matter where you are aside from a desert you should be able to find vegetation. I'm biased though because the bulk of my knowledge is geographically locked to the southeast USA so if I were dumped in a desert I'd be pretty boned. I've read up on it but never tried camping there. I need to at some point.
There's just so much out there that's helpful that's already growing though like aloe and pine. The southeast, especially Alabama, is LITTERED with pine. Pine sap is good for pine pitch (a glue/makeshift bandage), pine is high in vitamin C, and it's an evergreen so it's there in the winter. Plus if you had to hunt you can rub your clothes down in pine needles to mask a scent. That's one example because it's one I'm familiar with but there's more out there. I'm not saying it's "holistic medicine and it works" or anything but people were using plants long before we had modern medicine and some of it was accurate. Obviously some wasn't, so read up on it, or take a class if there's one available.
I've posted a lot here without really giving references so I'll just say I'm not former military or anything like that. I'm just someone that grew up outdoors and enjoys it and wanted to learn more than just car camping so first I read, then I youtubed, then I experimented to see what worked for me and what didn't.
The easiest way to learn is to practice. If you want to learn how to use a flint and steel, go in the backyard or to a campground with plumbing and make a fire without matches. Go buy herbs and plants from a local shop and try them, knowing they are safe, to see if you like the taste of them or if they're helpful or hurtful. Learn how to do without some things and how to replace others. A good example there is I'm a nicotine and coffee guy, so if that were to run out (which it would, quickly) I know there's a lot of calming things that can be smoked in a pipe or boiled into a tea in the woods. I'm not an expert on them, but I've tried them in safe environments in case you know I tried to smoke mullein, sage, clover, or mint and had an allergic reaction to it.
I've made friends with benadryl when learning this shit.
is sorta like a PC parts-picker for building a bug out bag. I'm not endosing them or any of the products in it. But it is sort of an interesting tool to play around with. It totals up the weight of everything as you go. So its sorta like the start of Oregon Trail. I want this and this and this and ohh shit I need a 2nd wagon.
e: It also doesn't have an option for marking down stuff you already own, which would be handy. Although obviously the entire point of the thing is, to get amazon referral $$
tinwhiskers on
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MayabirdPecking at the keyboardRegistered Userregular
edited December 2016
I was interested in learning to hunt and fish (something I've been a bit interested in anyway, being more self-sufficient and I hate Canada geese) and there are a number of guides online about the proper methods of field dressing, meat prep and preservation. Anyone have any recommendations for a complete newbie?
Mayabird on
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amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
I was interested in learning to hunt and fish (something I've been a bit interested in anyway, being more self-sufficient and I hate Canada geese) and there are a number of guides online about the proper methods of field dressing, meat prep and preservation. Anyone have any recommendations for a complete newbie?
youtube.
honestly that's the easiest way to learn these days.
"how to clean (type of fish)"
"how to field dress a deer"
"how to skin a deer"
"how to process the meat from a deer"
"how to cook (x)"
then just practice.
are YOU on the beer list?
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amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
As far as long term preservation you've pretty much got smoking and salt curing.
I was interested in learning to hunt and fish (something I've been a bit interested in anyway, being more self-sufficient and I hate Canada geese) and there are a number of guides online about the proper methods of field dressing, meat prep and preservation. Anyone have any recommendations for a complete newbie?
With dressing game the number one concern is that if you puncture the digestive track or the sex organs, you can really fuck up the meat. Not so much that it wouldn't be safe to eat per se, but that it will just taste bad. Same thing if you fail to get everything out.
Beyond that the goal is basically, making the skinning and quartering/breaking down as quick and as efficient(least waste) as possible. Which is 1 part technique and 100 parts practice. I once spent 20ish minutes watching youtube and breaking down a couple of ducks. I told my buddy who's a chef about this and he showed me a video of one of his culinary instructors doing it in 30 seconds.
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amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
I was interested in learning to hunt and fish (something I've been a bit interested in anyway, being more self-sufficient and I hate Canada geese) and there are a number of guides online about the proper methods of field dressing, meat prep and preservation. Anyone have any recommendations for a complete newbie?
With dressing game the number one concern is that if you puncture the digestive track or the sex organs, you can really fuck up the meat. Not so much that it wouldn't be safe to eat per se, but that it will just taste bad. Same thing if you fail to get everything out.
Beyond that the goal is basically, making the skinning and quartering/breaking down as quick and as efficient(least waste) as possible. Which is 1 part technique and 100 parts practice. I once spent 20ish minutes watching youtube and breaking down a couple of ducks. I told my buddy who's a chef about this and he showed me a video of one of his culinary instructors doing it in 30 seconds.
That's like me with Catfish. It took forever for me to find a rhythm to skin catfish without it being a hassle that required three tools.
I was interested in learning to hunt and fish (something I've been a bit interested in anyway, being more self-sufficient and I hate Canada geese) and there are a number of guides online about the proper methods of field dressing, meat prep and preservation. Anyone have any recommendations for a complete newbie?
With dressing game the number one concern is that if you puncture the digestive track or the sex organs, you can really fuck up the meat. Not so much that it wouldn't be safe to eat per se, but that it will just taste bad. Same thing if you fail to get everything out.
Beyond that the goal is basically, making the skinning and quartering/breaking down as quick and as efficient(least waste) as possible. Which is 1 part technique and 100 parts practice. I once spent 20ish minutes watching youtube and breaking down a couple of ducks. I told my buddy who's a chef about this and he showed me a video of one of his culinary instructors doing it in 30 seconds.
That's like me with Catfish. It took forever for me to find a rhythm to skin catfish without it being a hassle that required three tools.
catfish man
god what a chore
at least for me. I love them, but don't catch them often enough that I could ever be skilled at skinning them.
This is less survival and more culinary, but with fish: kill it, bleed it, chill it. Quickly. Don't let it sit in the sun, or dry out, or suffocate on a stringer. Meat quality is enormously improved.
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amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
This is less survival and more culinary, but with fish: kill it, bleed it, chill it. Quickly. Don't let it sit in the sun, or dry out, or suffocate on a stringer. Meat quality is enormously improved.
Also with fish or pretty much any meat, if you want the most calorie and nutrient for your time, boil it in a stew.
You're going to end up eating shit you'd normally have burned off in a fire or carved out before cooking, but it's the easiest way to get all the delicious goodness in one of the more non delicious ways of preparation.
are YOU on the beer list?
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
This is less survival and more culinary, but with fish: kill it, bleed it, chill it. Quickly. Don't let it sit in the sun, or dry out, or suffocate on a stringer. Meat quality is enormously improved.
Also with fish or pretty much any meat, if you want the most calorie and nutrient for your time, boil it in a stew.
You're going to end up eating shit you'd normally have burned off in a fire or carved out before cooking, but it's the easiest way to get all the delicious goodness in one of the more non delicious ways of preparation.
Waaaaaaaaaaaat. Stews own. If you want some real experimental shit you got options. You want variety you throw that shit in a pie crust and you got a pie. Remove the gravy, reduce, and throw it in a pie crust you got a pasty.
I picked up an edible wild plants book for my region, trees & shrubs of north america, and a pocket SAS survival guide. I also found a compass and a firestriker, and I have a mini multi-tool for daily carrying.
Going to get on the big stuff like the actual pack once I'm back at my place. Will hit up MEC but I doubt anything there will be cheaper than ordering online.
ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
I am very glad this thread exists. Most survival communities online are terrifying
This is something I've run into with my local prepper group, and I think I'm going to find another way. I joined one a couple weeks ago, and so many of the people seem.. uh.. unsafe for me to be around. So that's not going to work. Even people within this group are starting to say that "the prepper movement" no longer means simply learning preparedness and self sufficiency in case of the worst, but likens the whole thing to a cult. Unfortunately it's the biggest and most publicized local group and I don't want to deal with more of it, so I might look into S&R as suggested earlier.
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
Any recommendations of decent .pdf field guides I can put on my phone or kindle?
Edibles, trees, field dressing / cooking and the like?
At one point I had like 500 books but I ended up getting rid of a lot of them because they had weird info. I don't have specifics, but my favorites are
- land navigation. Look for anything that shows how to survey land and recognize geographical markers, find direction by tree growth and starts, etc.
- auto repair. Even if you can't get a car driving you can get a motor running which can give you power as a generator.
- water/solar/wind power. I ended up saving websites with how-to guides for making small electric wind turbines and converting them to pdfs for this purpose.
- water purification methods. Everything from boiling to filtering through charcoal, sand, and rock
- old natGeo or time life books from the 50s usually have good info for field dressing and the like. I have an old hardcover on fish and fishing that covers freshwater species of the US, and how to clean and cook them. It's like 35 years old at this point, but I don't have a pdf of it. I got it as kid and I've read it like a hundred times. (Just looked it up, it's called "Fish and Fishing" from 1982 and you can get it used on amazon for like $4
- for edibles/trees I personally like the survival flash cards on amazon so you can get good full color photos on laminated stock. They're under $10. I'd get that and just scan pictures of it to put on the kindle.
- Even though I'm not a huge fan of Dave Canterbury, his bushcraft 101 and advanced bushcraft books do cover the basics of different fire pits, knots, camp setups, trapping, hunting, meat preservation, land navigation, supplies, etc. Those two books alone are worth it.
are YOU on the beer list?
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MayabirdPecking at the keyboardRegistered Userregular
edited January 2017
Any recommendations on fuel storage and other transportation needs? Usefulness of bikes, gasoline storage, that sort of thing?
For instance, fuel cans - steel vs. plastic jerry cans? Any particular brands that would be better?
Also people have mentioned having firesteels. There are many types and brands available - what do folks recommend?
I have two of the plastic military fuel cans ( along with the metal 'donkey dick' spout) in my garage. They are great and won't dent or deform if you stack any kind of weight on top of them. They are great, but I don't know the availability in the civilian world. I'm guessing any military surplus store would have a bunch of them.
Being in the military this kind of stuff is given away when a unit orders too many or is shutting down and they don't want to have to find new homes for all the gear.
" I am a warrior, so that my son may be a merchant, so that his son may be a poet.”
― John Quincy Adams
amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
Any firesteel is fine. They're all pretty much made the same. I prefer one at least four inches because it's easier to grab without almost cutting yourself or accidentally shooting your hand forward into your tinder bundle and scattering it everywhere.
hey @amateurhour any recommendations for bush knives? I'm eyeballing everything from $20 Morakniv stuff to $220 semi-customs by dudes like LT Wright - I have a Spyderco Cat for EDC (small, light, nonthreatening blade shape) but while that's a great knife for opening boxes and cutting ropes it's not exactly a tool I can put through the gauntlet when it comes to stuff like woodworking or batoning. I figure an ergonomic handle and a good Scandi/Sabre grind that I can service myself are the two important things here
A basic Mora is a great thing, IMO, because the most important thing about a knife is that you actually have it when you need it. I can toss a $12 mora in every vehicle, back, and toolkit I own. And I have!
In terms of other mid-range options, I've heard the Jeff White trade and bush knives punch above their weight class and I've thought about getting one for a while now. But I live in the west and actual bushcraft as opposed to light backpacking basically never happens for me, so I haven't really had much reason to try them.
Posts
http://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-2379-my-mango-tree-could-kill-me-life-when-food-runs-out.html
This sort of situation is where a shotgun and a few chickens could really make a difference.
I have this book as well and do recommend it!
And even though I agree with most of what @hsu has said, watching this guy's youtube channel is just plain old fun and interesting: Primitive Technology. Check out his Forge Blower video for instance. He is darn good.
Chicken of the Wood!
Great stuff. Tastes (after cooking in butter or oil) like slightly lemony chicken only FAR less dense.
Maitake, cauliflower mushroom, morels, and oysters are a few others that are fairly easy to identify and taste great!
Opinions on Vitamin supplements? Also wondering what type of fishing rod people who go for weekend trips carry to keep things light.
Edit: I'll move to the camping thread in DND.
re: fishing rods. I've got an old cane pole that breaks down into two pieces for the primitive pack and I've got an ugli stick that breaks down into four pieces with a small spincaster reel for the bug out or camping pack.
I'm not sure if the P58 Rucksack can be modified. I mean I'm sure it CAN, but I've never messed with it. It doesn't have the lower back support of modern packs but with the bedroll secured under it, it does an okay job. I wouldn't want to carry it on a 12 mile hike but for going a few miles into the woods it suits me well.
My Paratus back is definitely "tacticool" but I mean I figure God forbid I'm actually using it for its intended purpose I won't care what other people think of it : )
Personally I'd shy away from vitamins, especially fat soluble vitamins, because of the risk of taking too many or not getting enough fat in your diet. I've heard expert speakers go both ways here but I mean there are so many nutrients in outdoor vegetation like wild onion, poke lettuce, pine needles, etc that no matter where you are aside from a desert you should be able to find vegetation. I'm biased though because the bulk of my knowledge is geographically locked to the southeast USA so if I were dumped in a desert I'd be pretty boned. I've read up on it but never tried camping there. I need to at some point.
There's just so much out there that's helpful that's already growing though like aloe and pine. The southeast, especially Alabama, is LITTERED with pine. Pine sap is good for pine pitch (a glue/makeshift bandage), pine is high in vitamin C, and it's an evergreen so it's there in the winter. Plus if you had to hunt you can rub your clothes down in pine needles to mask a scent. That's one example because it's one I'm familiar with but there's more out there. I'm not saying it's "holistic medicine and it works" or anything but people were using plants long before we had modern medicine and some of it was accurate. Obviously some wasn't, so read up on it, or take a class if there's one available.
I've posted a lot here without really giving references so I'll just say I'm not former military or anything like that. I'm just someone that grew up outdoors and enjoys it and wanted to learn more than just car camping so first I read, then I youtubed, then I experimented to see what worked for me and what didn't.
The easiest way to learn is to practice. If you want to learn how to use a flint and steel, go in the backyard or to a campground with plumbing and make a fire without matches. Go buy herbs and plants from a local shop and try them, knowing they are safe, to see if you like the taste of them or if they're helpful or hurtful. Learn how to do without some things and how to replace others. A good example there is I'm a nicotine and coffee guy, so if that were to run out (which it would, quickly) I know there's a lot of calming things that can be smoked in a pipe or boiled into a tea in the woods. I'm not an expert on them, but I've tried them in safe environments in case you know I tried to smoke mullein, sage, clover, or mint and had an allergic reaction to it.
I've made friends with benadryl when learning this shit.
is sorta like a PC parts-picker for building a bug out bag. I'm not endosing them or any of the products in it. But it is sort of an interesting tool to play around with. It totals up the weight of everything as you go. So its sorta like the start of Oregon Trail. I want this and this and this and ohh shit I need a 2nd wagon.
e: It also doesn't have an option for marking down stuff you already own, which would be handy. Although obviously the entire point of the thing is, to get amazon referral $$
youtube.
honestly that's the easiest way to learn these days.
"how to clean (type of fish)"
"how to field dress a deer"
"how to skin a deer"
"how to process the meat from a deer"
"how to cook (x)"
then just practice.
With dressing game the number one concern is that if you puncture the digestive track or the sex organs, you can really fuck up the meat. Not so much that it wouldn't be safe to eat per se, but that it will just taste bad. Same thing if you fail to get everything out.
Beyond that the goal is basically, making the skinning and quartering/breaking down as quick and as efficient(least waste) as possible. Which is 1 part technique and 100 parts practice. I once spent 20ish minutes watching youtube and breaking down a couple of ducks. I told my buddy who's a chef about this and he showed me a video of one of his culinary instructors doing it in 30 seconds.
That's like me with Catfish. It took forever for me to find a rhythm to skin catfish without it being a hassle that required three tools.
catfish man
god what a chore
at least for me. I love them, but don't catch them often enough that I could ever be skilled at skinning them.
For smoking and curing tips feel free to hit up the charcuterie thread stickied up top. Warning, you may leave the thread hungry.
Also with fish or pretty much any meat, if you want the most calorie and nutrient for your time, boil it in a stew.
You're going to end up eating shit you'd normally have burned off in a fire or carved out before cooking, but it's the easiest way to get all the delicious goodness in one of the more non delicious ways of preparation.
Waaaaaaaaaaaat. Stews own. If you want some real experimental shit you got options. You want variety you throw that shit in a pie crust and you got a pie. Remove the gravy, reduce, and throw it in a pie crust you got a pasty.
I picked up an edible wild plants book for my region, trees & shrubs of north america, and a pocket SAS survival guide. I also found a compass and a firestriker, and I have a mini multi-tool for daily carrying.
Going to get on the big stuff like the actual pack once I'm back at my place. Will hit up MEC but I doubt anything there will be cheaper than ordering online.
Do... Re... Mi... So... Fa.... Do... Re.... Do...
Forget it...
This is something I've run into with my local prepper group, and I think I'm going to find another way. I joined one a couple weeks ago, and so many of the people seem.. uh.. unsafe for me to be around. So that's not going to work. Even people within this group are starting to say that "the prepper movement" no longer means simply learning preparedness and self sufficiency in case of the worst, but likens the whole thing to a cult. Unfortunately it's the biggest and most publicized local group and I don't want to deal with more of it, so I might look into S&R as suggested earlier.
Edibles, trees, field dressing / cooking and the like?
At one point I had like 500 books but I ended up getting rid of a lot of them because they had weird info. I don't have specifics, but my favorites are
- land navigation. Look for anything that shows how to survey land and recognize geographical markers, find direction by tree growth and starts, etc.
- auto repair. Even if you can't get a car driving you can get a motor running which can give you power as a generator.
- water/solar/wind power. I ended up saving websites with how-to guides for making small electric wind turbines and converting them to pdfs for this purpose.
- water purification methods. Everything from boiling to filtering through charcoal, sand, and rock
- old natGeo or time life books from the 50s usually have good info for field dressing and the like. I have an old hardcover on fish and fishing that covers freshwater species of the US, and how to clean and cook them. It's like 35 years old at this point, but I don't have a pdf of it. I got it as kid and I've read it like a hundred times. (Just looked it up, it's called "Fish and Fishing" from 1982 and you can get it used on amazon for like $4
- for edibles/trees I personally like the survival flash cards on amazon so you can get good full color photos on laminated stock. They're under $10. I'd get that and just scan pictures of it to put on the kindle.
- Even though I'm not a huge fan of Dave Canterbury, his bushcraft 101 and advanced bushcraft books do cover the basics of different fire pits, knots, camp setups, trapping, hunting, meat preservation, land navigation, supplies, etc. Those two books alone are worth it.
For instance, fuel cans - steel vs. plastic jerry cans? Any particular brands that would be better?
Also people have mentioned having firesteels. There are many types and brands available - what do folks recommend?
Being in the military this kind of stuff is given away when a unit orders too many or is shutting down and they don't want to have to find new homes for all the gear.
― John Quincy Adams
I'm no expert but this has served me well when I'm out camping http://www.lightmyfire.com/products/products/swedish-firesteel-20.aspx
Do... Re... Mi... So... Fa.... Do... Re.... Do...
Forget it...
In terms of other mid-range options, I've heard the Jeff White trade and bush knives punch above their weight class and I've thought about getting one for a while now. But I live in the west and actual bushcraft as opposed to light backpacking basically never happens for me, so I haven't really had much reason to try them.
also, to the mods - pardon the six month bump, hope necroing this thread isn't too big of a deal since it's the only one like it on the forums