So my friend has decided to run a fantasy campaign, and he hasn't settled on a system yet. I think he's pretty against 5e, as he bought a bunch of 4e stuff very shortly before 5e came out. Unfortunately, hes also "heard some nice things about pathfinder." I'd really rather convince him to swing the 13th Age direction, please send help.
Point out the fact that the mechanics of the game flesh out the characters with the One Unique Things, Backgrounds, and Icon Relationships. That you can literally know what that character is all about without having to read your players' prequel book that rivals LoTR in size.
Point at the combat being faster, deadlier, and smoother. The Escalation Die, Nastier Specials, Mooks. Point at how you can make balanced fights like 4E in the system and keep it fresh and interesting. How the fights are so quick that you hardly get bogged down with characters who are just spamming their best At-Wills.
Then... Point at the magic weapons and items page and show him Quirks. If he isn't hooked on the idea of running 13th Age, then drop him as a friend because you don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
How many times can a 1st level Cleric cast Javelin of Faith?
They use one of their 1st level slots to stick that spell in, then they cast it as many times as they want because it's an at-will spell. It's for Clerics who don't want to be melee.
And to make a third post in a row (Or not @Joshmvil... C-C-COMBOBREAKER!)
I've been working on my Warehouse 13th Age idea a bit but coming up with items that are so powerful that they were literally erased from existent and yet weak enough that the players can defeat it through smarts is kinda hard. So far I got three items I am liking.
Game Spoilers inside
The Mad Druid's Bug Box- A small box that is craved like a roach. It can summon bugs of different sizes, can summon swarms, or cause bugs to formed together to make bugmen and allows the user to control them. The users who fails a will save is controlled by a strong desire to destroy the "Unclean World" (civilization; cities, farms, towns, ect.) I plan on using the Bugs to allow the user to create a bug shield around him when combat gets too close (like no damage is done to the guy unless fire is used to burn the shield away). Breaking the physical connection between the person and the box breaks the complete control, but if the person has had it long, the influence will stay with the person as they are driven mad.
The Flute of the Dragonheart- A small bone flute made from dragon bone that can call any dragons within a league (little over 3 miles) to the user's command, even the Three. But the right songs must be played, otherwise the dragons will react violently as it will be painful to hear it's call. Dragonborn/kin players will also be able to hear the flute's call but it will not be painful but annoying as it will nearly deafen them to any other sounds. Users with the flute will hear dragons roaring in their head, speaking to them in Draconic. Those who understand it will think that the voices are telling them to bring back the Age of the Dragons, before there were Emperors and such who ruled the Dragon Empire. I plan on using this as the first item that the players come across using the Blood and Lighting adventure from the back of the book.
Lady Amelia's Amulet of Dreaming- A amulet that makes your dreams come true. Not your wishes, but it warps reality to make the dreams you have when asleep become real. However, it also makes your Nightmares real too. I have an interesting idea of a little girl getting the amulet and creating a cartoonly fantasy kingdom where her and all her friends are princesses and knights and stuff but evil Orcs keep threatening her fantasy world.
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webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
If your friend likes 4E more than 5E, then I definitely think 13th Age should be a fairly easy sell, as long as he's good with the abstract movement stuff and not having 5 foot grid and pushing people 2 squares and all that noise.
My 13th Age pitch is 3.5's distinct classes and customization within those classes without the simulationism and 2000 words of rules on grappling, with some of 4E's balanced approach to combat, where the GM controls when the heal-up comes and so managing "daily" powers alongside per battle and at will ones is a fun part of the game but without the detailed wargaming stuff like tons of modifiers/bonuses/pushes/pulls, and then with some story game sprinkled in and more player agency in what the story will be from one unique things and the icon relationship dice.
Yea I'm a huge 4th ed proponent but 13th age is close enough that it scratches those itches. I love the escalation die, the one unique thing... It does a lot of things right. It's crunchier than 5th ed (Which I like) but not completely broken like Pathfinder.
I think a 4.5th ed would be amazing, condense the players handbooks into 1 book, same with the monster manuals, update the DMs guide and do a mega splatbook and update it all to the latest errata and fix the maths from the old books and do some other housekeeping and call it good.
I don't think I'll never play another game that doesn't use abstract movement so I'd still choose 13th Age over a say 4.5E. But that's easy to say, because as I mentioned before 13th Age gives me all the things I liked about 3.5, 4E, and a bit of story game and that's literally the perfect blend for me for d20 fantasy.
Importantly 13th Age leaves out the things I hated in 3.5 and 4E.
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webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
I don't think I'll never play another game that doesn't use abstract movement so I'd still choose 13th Age over a say 4.5E. But that's easy to say, because as I mentioned before 13th Age gives me all the things I liked about 3.5, 4E, and a bit of story game and that's literally the perfect blend for me for d20 fantasy.
Importantly 13th Age leaves out the things I hated in 3.5 and 4E.
So true. I like the specific movement of 4th ed and the powers that take advantage of it, but at that point it is saying I like my 13th Age Pizza and my D&D 4th ed Cheeseburger. I love both, and just have to pick which one I want for dinner.
5th ed is probably a well done steak. Its not great, but its steak, and if I'm at someone elses BBQ with my group of friends well then its good enough, because hanging out with my friends is more important.
Honestly, if somebody made a really badass(better than Fantasy Grounds or Roll20) VTT experience that could take all of the work out of 4E for me and I could just enjoy the meat of it without the hassle, I would play that for sure. Man who knows what would've been if that VTT engineer they had working on the 4E stuff hadn't died.
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webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
I mean, heck, with as cheap as screens are getting and tablet/phone integration having a VTT on a table top is getting much closer to reality for a large percentage of gamers.
Oh man I can't wait for tonight's 13th Age session. Kicking off with the party going straight into the fight with the young white dragon, 3 kobold heroes, and 12 kobold mooks in 2 separate groups. The fight would be a "fair fight" for 9 level 2 PCs, but it's only 5 level 2 PCs.
They love the challenge, and I made it clear that this dragon was a risk/reward opportunity for them to get some magic items and gold plus the renown that comes with such an achievement, but that it would absolutely not be a "it's the appropriate level challenge for us at the level that we're currently at" type of deal.
I've no doubt they're going to win, because they're a very effective party, but hey, if they have to flee and take a setback that'll be fun too.
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
Is there any way RAW to do damage effectively with punches/kicks that isn't monk?
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
Is there any way RAW to do damage effectively with punches/kicks that isn't monk?
Name your weapon "Punch"?
Like this is a semi-serious suggestion. You talk with your DM and work out a way to make it fit. 13th Age doesn't say a longsword does y, a longsword does whatever a single handle martial weapon does for your class. It really wouldn't break a damn thing if your "weapon" was your body. Like, keep the required number of hands free and I don't see any reason to care as a GM. There's the outside prison break scenario but those should be exceedingly rare and monks already fuck them up so w/e.
Yeah, I mean the spirit of 13th Age is definitely in line with letting someone just use the weapon dice for their class but for unarmed.
If somebody told me they wanted to play a 13th Age char who was a big brawler who just slugged people with their fists, I wouldn't point them to the monk, which is all about finesse and weaving between forms.
I'd tell them to play a fighter and I'll let them use a d8 die for their punches and kicks just like they're using a longsword or whatever. Like, what's the harm? None. I guess there's RP scenarios where they are wanting to sneak into a place and it would be hard to hide a weapon but they don't have to worry about it, but who cares about that?
I'd encourage them to have their one unique thing be about why they're able to punch with such force that they do real legit damage with their fists.
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
I want to do a super manly bald Bard with a moustache who used to be in a barber shop quartet and uses fisticuffs.
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
I think this sounds cool as hell, and maybe something we might try. It's pretty much random groups doing one shot missions in the same world, each group mixing and matching their groups to explore the world and grow the map. We have a lot of people who like to play, a few people who like to run games, and it would be pretty cool as we can switch up stuff, GMs become players, players become GMs. Burn out might not happen as people can jump in and out as they want to. Would anyone want to figure out how we could do this with 13th Age?
My idea is a world that is destroyed by some major event that has been forgotten. The players and everyone only knows one town/city and the few villages and farms close to the town. Beyond this civilized area are wild areas; twisted forests that even druids struggle to understand, ruins of the old age filled with horrors that have found haven there, lands corrupted by arcane curses that has caused reality to mutant into something terrifying. Few people have ever tried to really explore the wild areas since the small civilized world has given them all they needed. But now, the population among the races is growing faster then ever, resources are running lower and lower, and it's now important to push back the darkness and grow outwards. So the Adventurer's Guild has come to being. It acts as a hub for everyone to gather together to pool in the knowledge of the adventurers, to collect the request from those in town, and to work together map out the world. The icons wouldn't be the God-Tier characters but instead people who hold large amount of power in the town. So instead of the Emperor, you'd have the Governor. The Diabolist might not be on our plane of existence, but has a small, hidden cult that is seeking to release her, dragons are rare things, but people still follow the Ways of the Three. Something like that.
Look in the Book of Loot and you'll find some brawler gloves made from bone that demands blood that will be nice for a fisticuffs character.
Also, those gloves I was talking about:
Gauntlets of Maiming (recharge 16+):
These nasty, spiked gauntlets are invariably caked with blood and gore, no matter how much you scrub them. When you inflict a critical hit that does not kill your opponent, you may describe how your attack is especially painful, and may involve chopping off limbs or skewering organs. The GM might even let this hamper or daze your enemy, or give a penalty to a particular special attack (“how’s that manticore going to make a tail spikes attack now that I’ve cut off his tail!*”)
Quirk: Squeamish and gentle outside of combat.
Edit: Also the Fist Wrought of Blood in 13 True Ways, page 225.
Yeah, West Marches is a game style that is pretty neat in concept, but I've never played. It's really built for groups that have rotating players, you never know who will show up from week to week, etc. Not the way my group is, but a very cool style for that type of group.
If you want to see some west marches gameplay in action, here is the playlist for Steven Lumpkin's Rollplay: The West Marches game that was streamed on itmejp's Rollplay channel. They were using D&D 5, and if you watch enough of it you see Steven struggling hard against the system, trying to hack a better inspiration mechanic into the game, trying to hack better reward structures into it, etc., because West Marches games need to reward players for non-combat victories like exploration and finding ways to get treasure without killing things.
Anyway, my initial instinct is that 13th Age is not a good system for West Marches, despite my deep love for 13th Age. These are the reasons, and with more reflection and conversation maybe I'll alter my positions on these:
1) West Marches needs to be deadly. Part of the fun of it is entire parties will die, or lose a couple characters on an excursion just because it's a harsh ass world out there and the challenges are pre-built, not tailored to your level. You might explore your way into something you can't handle. 13th Age is not a game built for deadliness. The flee rule means outside of instant player death from going to negative half max-HP it's very hard to lose a character.
2) West Marches gameplay is built on people having different levels of progression. You could try to do this using incremental advances and such, but part of West Marches is that you're the level 3, almost 4 guy who has survived this long and now you're traveling with the level 2 and two new level 1 characters who haven't yet proved they can survive the wilds. You can't replicate that as easily in 13th Age.
3) One unique things probably aren't that compatible with West Marches. Sure you could make people create OUTs that fit into the box of West Marches style, but it takes creative control out of the player's hands.
4) Icon relationships don't make sense to me in WM style. Your idea about the icons being more local entities could probably work, but the thing i like about icon relationships is my player's choices help create the meta plot of the game, and in WM the meta plot is just exploring and overcoming challenges. What do you do if a player chooses to have a positive relationship with the diabolist cult and they roll dice and get that. The cult is going to help them fight the goblins 3 hexes over? Just trying to think through how they would work organically in WM style.
I have no doubt you could hack 13th Age a bit to make a WM game work in it, I just don't think it's the best option for it. My instinct is that games like Dungeon Crawl Classics or Torchbearer probably make for better games in the WM style, or just any OSR game with deadly combat. I do love 13th Age and though I'll probably never do one, am intrigued by this idea so I'm interested to hear what you come up with if you decide to do it.
If you want more West Marches resources, here are some:
Also, while I don't own it, I've heard this supplement for Dungeon World "Perilous Wilds" is a fantastic resource for West Marches play even if you're not playing DW. It's supposedly loaded with great random tables to encourage building a wilderness based around exploration and discovery, which is kind of what west marches is all about. http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/156979/The-Perilous-Wilds
Started out doing a "4 days earlier" scene having the players as audience see their characters leaving the town of Venture to head west toward the young white dragon's cave. As they had just left, we saw a man in dark armor riding a horse up from the south(this guy was the result of our bard rolling a 1 on his Balladeer talent cursed dice with the icon The Blood Pontiff, who is the leader of one of the human nations who have an undead army, worship blood, etc.)
We get right into this battle with the dragon. I've made it clear to my players and the characters that choosing to go after this dragon was a risk/reward choice, and not a "this is balanced for your party" choice. The fight was the young white dragon, 3 kobold heroes, 6 kobold wizard mooks, and 6 kobold skyclaw mooks. Balance wise it was "fair" for 9 level 2 PCs, and w have 5 level 2 PCs.
It went awesome. The dragon started faraway, and the kobolds all started raining damage, and the kobold heroes engaged the party. Every time a kobold hero landed an attack, the next attack by all other non-leader kobolds got +3 damage added to it, taking the mook damage from 3 and 4 damage to 6 and 7 damage, very scary. So the party now realizes they have to prioritize the mooks, and they did their best.
On round 2, the Paladin/Commander who is the closest thing the party has to a tank disengages and moves to engage the dragon who delayed and moved to nearby the last round, but hadn't yet engaged a PC. It was a good move, because the dragon was about to fly over and attack the party druid healer who had put himself a bit out of position. The Paladin gets paladin's challenge on the dragon and he's feeling good. The rest of the party is trying to handle the rest of the kobolds while he holds down the dragon. Then the dragon lands both its claw and bite attack, then crits him with its breath and puts him unconscious. He has a regeneration spell on him that he's getting lucky with and keeping it rolling, so he's getting up each turn and trying to do what he can before getting knocked back down again.
Finally they get the rest of the enemies down, but our monk has had to drink 2 healing potions, our healer is completely out of spells, the bard is out of every spell/song, and the only daily spell left is an acid arrow.
My wife's wizard evokes an acid arrow for what would've been the finisher on the dragon at escalation +4, I think it had 28 HP left and the arrow would've done 40, but she misses it. She ended up getting the killing blow the next round with color spray, because it was the best option she had left, ray of frost would've been resisted by the dragon, magic missile doesn't do as much damage, etc.
Meanwhile just as they are taking a breather, the guy we saw in the opening scene with the bastard sword and the charcoal colored armor shows up. My wife's character knows who he is because he's from her country, a guy with the title of knightslayer from his actions in the war that ended a couple years before. He's there to challenge the party bard to a duel to teach him a lesson about using his ballad songs to speak ill of the Blood Pontiff(cursed dice 1 result I mentioned earlier). The bard agrees to fight him, I have the guy put his sword up and just punch the bard twice into unconsciousness. I actually statted the NPC out because he will definitely be a recurring character. The bard's player loved it, and played up the fact that he had no hard feelings against the guy about it. After they fought, the NPC left.
After that, they collected the treasure and got their heal up, then while searching the room passed a skill check that led them to find claw marks in the ground of the cave as though the dragon was trying to dig, wife's wizard used cantrip mastery to use acid arrow to burn through the stone floor revealing an old underground tunnel, some dwarf skeletons and a locked chest. Another skill check to learn that the type of lock used on the chest was tamper-proof and would destroy the contents of the chest if they failed to open it correctly. Then it was time for the party bard to try to pick the thing. I am transparent about skill check difficulties and stakes, so he knew it was a DC25, so about a 25% chance of success for him. He opted to spend one of his 6 tokens with the prince of shadows to pass the skill check and unlock it, getting the party even more treasure.
After that they opted to take a break from adventuring to do some personal downtime stuff for a couple months of in-game time, since they'd been non-stop putting out fires together for a little over 2 months of in-game calendar since the game had started. We got to see all of them plant some seeds for interesting future developments, then they regrouped and had a fun in-character discussion together about some of the stuff they did during the break and figuring out what was next for them.
My wife laid a seed during her downtime that she knew would get one of the other PCs excited, so the party decided to follow up on that, and we created the next town they were going to head to together. I went around the table asking people to tell me details about this town, and it turned out so great. Everybody got really engaged with helping create details of the next place they're going to go, and it basically created my next fronts for me, which combined with the second round of story guidance icon rolls we did, pretty much gives me all the creative juice I need to flesh out all the players and dangers and stuff that we'll be exploring in the upcoming sessions.
Yeah, West Marches is a game style that is pretty neat in concept, but I've never played. It's really built for groups that have rotating players, you never know who will show up from week to week, etc. Not the way my group is, but a very cool style for that type of group.
If you want to see some west marches gameplay in action, here is the playlist for Steven Lumpkin's Rollplay: The West Marches game that was streamed on itmejp's Rollplay channel. They were using D&D 5, and if you watch enough of it you see Steven struggling hard against the system, trying to hack a better inspiration mechanic into the game, trying to hack better reward structures into it, etc., because West Marches games need to reward players for non-combat victories too if the players manage them.
Anyway, my initial instinct is that 13th Age is not a good system for West Marches, despite my deep love for 13th Age. These are the reasons, and with more reflection and conversation maybe I'll alter my positions on these:
1) West Marches needs to be deadly. Part of the fun of it is entire parties will die, or lose a couple characters on an excursion just because it's a harsh ass world out there and the challenges are pre-built, not tailored to your level. You might explore your way into something you can't handle. 13th Age is not a game built for deadliness. The flee rule means outside of instant player death from going to negative half max-HP it's very hard to lose a character.
2) West Marches gameplay is built on people having different levels of progression. You could try to do this using incremental advances and such, but part of West Marches is that you're the level 3, almost 4 guy who has survived this long and now you're traveling with the level 2 and two new level 1 characters who haven't yet proved they can survive the wilds. You can't replicate that as easily in 13th Age.
3) One unique things probably aren't that compatible with West Marches. Sure you could make people create OUTs that fit into the box of West Marches style, but it takes creative control out of the player's hands.
4) Icon relationships don't make sense to me in WM style. Your idea about the icons being more local entities could probably work, but the thing i like about icon relationships is my player's choices help create the meta plot of the game, and in WM the meta plot is just exploring and overcoming challenges. What do you do if a player chooses to have a positive relationship with the diabolist cult and they roll dice and get that. The cult is going to help them fight the goblins 3 hexes over? Just trying to think through how they would work organically in WM style.
I have no doubt you could hack 13th Age a bit to make a WM game work in it, I just don't think it's the best option for it. My instinct is that games like Dungeon Crawl Classics or Torchbearer probably make for better games in the WM style, or just any OSR game with deadly combat. I do love 13th Age and though I'll probably never do one, am intrigued by this idea so I'm interested to hear what you come up with if you decide to do it.
If you want more West Marches resources, here are some:
Also, while I don't own it, I've heard this supplement for Dungeon World "Perilous Wilds" is a fantastic resource for West Marches play even if you're not playing DW. It's supposedly loaded with great random tables to encourage building a wilderness based around exploration and discovery, which is kind of what west marches is all about. http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/156979/The-Perilous-Wilds
The West Marches style of game is going to fight any system, imo. Most games assume you'll be the Big Damn Heroes, and that you'll be these big influencing force on the world at large. Which, you kinda are in a WM game. Your world is a tiny slice of a village/town/city against the darkness and you are the driving force to push it back. But let me break down the points you made, naysayer!
1- West Marches needs to be deadly. 13th Age can be deadly. It's not 5E deadly where a bad roll and a badder wizard can wreak the whole crew, but it's still got sharper teeth than 4E. I've seen many players force to the ground in fights after two-three hits. And that's before monsters get their Nasty Specials. I would think a WM game will be a game filled with Nasty Special monsters, pushing the players even harder than normal. The Fleeing rule in 13th Age says that its a campaign lost, which sounds like to me "This area is deadlier and stronger than before". I can see that working to keep the map shifting and moving, as far as the strength of the darkness is concerned. The next group will have to deal with the fallout of the last's failure. Didn't stop the cult from finishing their ritual? Now there is a powerful demon there opening up rifts to the Abyss and summoning an army. Failed to defeat the orc raiders? A forward outpost is now burned to the ground and the orcs are using it as a homebase while they attack different villages. So far 13th Age seems to be perfect for that deadly feel.
2- West Marches gameplay is built on people having different levels of progression. Sure, but what difference is there between a character in 5E being one level higher than a player being level 1 vs. two players at level 1 but one has two incremental advances? Gaining power is still gaining power, even if its just small steps instead of levels. I personally don't see a difference between the two. We can make rules on how many missions = incremental advances and levels, but the progression will still be there.
3- One unique things probably aren't that compatible with West Marches. This I will concede on this one, sort of. The idea that there is a whole town of people who are Super One of a Kind Unique would be hard to believe, but I don't use OUTs like that anyhow. I personally make OUTs be the defining thing about the character, the over all theme of who they are. So one might be "Vengeful Pirate Widow Seeking Her Husband's Old Crew for Jusitice", which isn't that unique in the grand scheme of things, but it is what people think about when they talk to your character. Some people's OUTs in normal game are weaksause anyhow, like odd skin colors/conditions or first to do something. Sure, you can make all sorts of shit with that but you can make all sorts of shit with less Unique OUTs too. So for the style of play I normally do with OUTs, this wouldn't be a problem. You'd just have to explain to people that while you can be the first, the last, the only of something, you don't have to be. You can just have a mission, a purpose, ect. Plus, I can see some missions that could be built from a few people's OUTs, so... point for 13th Age on WM!
4- Icon relationships don't make sense to me in WM style. They might actually. Why would people risk going out into the wilds? Icons. Who might benefit from adventurers diving into old ruins and stuff? Icons. Who might have the resources to fund these trips? Icons. Even if the Icon is smaller in scale, It doesn't matter. Your world, and what you see of it, is small too. Think about the 13th Age. Do yo think that the Dragon Empire is the only civilized place in the world? It's almost the size of Texas (seriously, look at the map and measure it out. Texas has it beat by a few miles). The Icons are only powerful in the Dragon Empire. Beyond that they're power fades until they aren't even names people have heard of. The political moving and shaking will still be here, and even better, at a more intimate setting. So the Icons aren't God-Tier people, but they are still there moving the pieces around, you could have Eclipse Phase style conflicting missions where one player is there to destroy some ancient relic for one Icon and another is there to collect it for an Icon, leading to drama. Sure, that isn't 100% dungeon crawl, but it gives purpose to the whole "We are going out to the darkness" shit. As far as help in your example, You got a positive relationship roll, so the Diabolist gives you a power that lets you turn into a demon for 3 rounds to use when you want to (which can be handled before you leave the town.) She "blesses" a weapon of yours, or something else. You don't have to have robed people show up and start chanting, there are other ways. As players start clearing out the darkness and turning some of the ruins into forward outposts under this group of that group, then maybe you'll see robed people show up and chanting because the area doesn't seem as dangerous as before and they felt they could handle it (which they are wrong, but that isn't the point.)
I think a 13th Age game wouldn't just fit for a WM style of game, I think it would enhance it more so then a simple Dungeon Crawler. It might require a small bit more planning by the GMs than normal, but it's not that much more than any other WM game.
Plus like, if your games theme isn't heroic fantasy and the expectation is death then it'd probably be fine to make the retreat rules either non existent or much harsher wouldn't it?
For what it's worth I'm pretty meh on most fantasy roleplaying things but this all sounds super fun to me.
Yeah, West Marches is a game style that is pretty neat in concept, but I've never played. It's really built for groups that have rotating players, you never know who will show up from week to week, etc. Not the way my group is, but a very cool style for that type of group.
If you want to see some west marches gameplay in action, here is the playlist for Steven Lumpkin's Rollplay: The West Marches game that was streamed on itmejp's Rollplay channel. They were using D&D 5, and if you watch enough of it you see Steven struggling hard against the system, trying to hack a better inspiration mechanic into the game, trying to hack better reward structures into it, etc., because West Marches games need to reward players for non-combat victories too if the players manage them.
Anyway, my initial instinct is that 13th Age is not a good system for West Marches, despite my deep love for 13th Age. These are the reasons, and with more reflection and conversation maybe I'll alter my positions on these:
1) West Marches needs to be deadly. Part of the fun of it is entire parties will die, or lose a couple characters on an excursion just because it's a harsh ass world out there and the challenges are pre-built, not tailored to your level. You might explore your way into something you can't handle. 13th Age is not a game built for deadliness. The flee rule means outside of instant player death from going to negative half max-HP it's very hard to lose a character.
2) West Marches gameplay is built on people having different levels of progression. You could try to do this using incremental advances and such, but part of West Marches is that you're the level 3, almost 4 guy who has survived this long and now you're traveling with the level 2 and two new level 1 characters who haven't yet proved they can survive the wilds. You can't replicate that as easily in 13th Age.
3) One unique things probably aren't that compatible with West Marches. Sure you could make people create OUTs that fit into the box of West Marches style, but it takes creative control out of the player's hands.
4) Icon relationships don't make sense to me in WM style. Your idea about the icons being more local entities could probably work, but the thing i like about icon relationships is my player's choices help create the meta plot of the game, and in WM the meta plot is just exploring and overcoming challenges. What do you do if a player chooses to have a positive relationship with the diabolist cult and they roll dice and get that. The cult is going to help them fight the goblins 3 hexes over? Just trying to think through how they would work organically in WM style.
I have no doubt you could hack 13th Age a bit to make a WM game work in it, I just don't think it's the best option for it. My instinct is that games like Dungeon Crawl Classics or Torchbearer probably make for better games in the WM style, or just any OSR game with deadly combat. I do love 13th Age and though I'll probably never do one, am intrigued by this idea so I'm interested to hear what you come up with if you decide to do it.
If you want more West Marches resources, here are some:
Also, while I don't own it, I've heard this supplement for Dungeon World "Perilous Wilds" is a fantastic resource for West Marches play even if you're not playing DW. It's supposedly loaded with great random tables to encourage building a wilderness based around exploration and discovery, which is kind of what west marches is all about. http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/156979/The-Perilous-Wilds
The West Marches style of game is going to fight any system, imo. Most games assume you'll be the Big Damn Heroes, and that you'll be these big influencing force on the world at large. Which, you kinda are in a WM game. Your world is a tiny slice of a village/town/city against the darkness and you are the driving force to push it back. But let me break down the points you made, naysayer!
1- West Marches needs to be deadly. 13th Age can be deadly. It's not 5E deadly where a bad roll and a badder wizard can wreak the whole crew, but it's still got sharper teeth than 4E. I've seen many players force to the ground in fights after two-three hits. And that's before monsters get their Nasty Specials. I would think a WM game will be a game filled with Nasty Special monsters, pushing the players even harder than normal. The Fleeing rule in 13th Age says that its a campaign lost, which sounds like to me "This area is deadlier and stronger than before". I can see that working to keep the map shifting and moving, as far as the strength of the darkness is concerned. The next group will have to deal with the fallout of the last's failure. Didn't stop the cult from finishing their ritual? Now there is a powerful demon there opening up rifts to the Abyss and summoning an army. Failed to defeat the orc raiders? A forward outpost is now burned to the ground and the orcs are using it as a homebase while they attack different villages. So far 13th Age seems to be perfect for that deadly feel.
2- West Marches gameplay is built on people having different levels of progression. Sure, but what difference is there between a character in 5E being one level higher than a player being level 1 vs. two players at level 1 but one has two incremental advances? Gaining power is still gaining power, even if its just small steps instead of levels. I personally don't see a difference between the two. We can make rules on how many missions = incremental advances and levels, but the progression will still be there.
3- One unique things probably aren't that compatible with West Marches. This I will concede on this one, sort of. The idea that there is a whole town of people who are Super One of a Kind Unique would be hard to believe, but I don't use OUTs like that anyhow. I personally make OUTs be the defining thing about the character, the over all theme of who they are. So one might be "Vengeful Pirate Widow Seeking Her Husband's Old Crew for Jusitice", which isn't that unique in the grand scheme of things, but it is what people think about when they talk to your character. Some people's OUTs in normal game are weaksause anyhow, like odd skin colors/conditions or first to do something. Sure, you can make all sorts of shit with that but you can make all sorts of shit with less Unique OUTs too. So for the style of play I normally do with OUTs, this wouldn't be a problem. You'd just have to explain to people that while you can be the first, the last, the only of something, you don't have to be. You can just have a mission, a purpose, ect. Plus, I can see some missions that could be built from a few people's OUTs, so... point for 13th Age on WM!
4- Icon relationships don't make sense to me in WM style. They might actually. Why would people risk going out into the wilds? Icons. Who might benefit from adventurers diving into old ruins and stuff? Icons. Who might have the resources to fund these trips? Icons. Even if the Icon is smaller in scale, It doesn't matter. Your world, and what you see of it, is small too. Think about the 13th Age. Do yo think that the Dragon Empire is the only civilized place in the world? It's almost the size of Texas (seriously, look at the map and measure it out. Texas has it beat by a few miles). The Icons are only powerful in the Dragon Empire. Beyond that they're power fades until they aren't even names people have heard of. The political moving and shaking will still be here, and even better, at a more intimate setting. So the Icons aren't God-Tier people, but they are still there moving the pieces around, you could have Eclipse Phase style conflicting missions where one player is there to destroy some ancient relic for one Icon and another is there to collect it for an Icon, leading to drama. Sure, that isn't 100% dungeon crawl, but it gives purpose to the whole "We are going out to the darkness" shit. As far as help in your example, You got a positive relationship roll, so the Diabolist gives you a power that lets you turn into a demon for 3 rounds to use when you want to (which can be handled before you leave the town.) She "blesses" a weapon of yours, or something else. You don't have to have robed people show up and start chanting, there are other ways. As players start clearing out the darkness and turning some of the ruins into forward outposts under this group of that group, then maybe you'll see robed people show up and chanting because the area doesn't seem as dangerous as before and they felt they could handle it (which they are wrong, but that isn't the point.)
I think a 13th Age game wouldn't just fit for a WM style of game, I think it would enhance it more so then a simple Dungeon Crawler. It might require a small bit more planning by the GMs than normal, but it's not that much more than any other WM game.
Thanks for the discussion! I was hoping to be convinced the other way about some of my thoughts, and I think largely you did that.
1 - Deadliness. I didn't mean to suggest that 13th Age can't be hard. All the fights I run in my 13th Age game are built for parties that are like 2 and 3+ PCs larger than my party, and are likewise very tough. The dragon+kobolds fight from our last session put our tankiest guy unconscious 3 separate times the same fight, put our bard unconscious, the monk to 3 HP drinking health potions, the healer completely out of heal spells and at half health, and the wizard at 1/4th health with no spells left. The system can definitely push the players. I mainly meant unless you hack the game and take out the flee rule, only a big crit that just drops somebody to negative half max HP(will happen, already happened twice in my 13th Age game in 8 sessions and the PC only lived because I let them use icon tokens to prevent instant unavoidable deaths such as that) will kill a PC. They will otherwise just flee.
That being said, your counter point about how them fleeing might feel fun in a WM game because of how much harsher the area they just had to flee from just got is a great one, and a point in favor of 13th Age WM.
2 - I feel like 13th Age's balance is harsher in this way. HP/defenses scale up in such a way that if you had a level 4 PC and a level 1, the level 1 would have a hell of a time hitting a level 4 enemy, and would also be unconscious after maybe 2 or 3 hits from a single level 4 enemy, nevermind one that's higher. Maybe it doesn't matter anyway since WM gameplay isn't about throwing balanced challenges at the PCs. I read a houserule somebody had for a WM game which was a mentor type thing, if you're lower level than the rest of the party, after a session of adventuring with them, you gain a level, but it won't catch you up to them. So one level 4 PC and a couple level 2s adventure for a session, the 2s all go up to 3, but the next session they wouldn't go up to 4 just for adventuring with them. Kind of a cool catch-up mechanic for people bringing in new characters after deaths or just to join the game.
3 - Yeah, I was looking at this through the lens of how my game is using OUTs, which is they are things the players got to choose, with a social contract from me that I will help them explore them in the game. But they don't have to be used that way, you'd just make them more of a thing that's unique about the character, not necessarily more than that.
4 - Yeah, again I was thinking about what I know about WM style games, and how it's so much about exploration/treasure finding, and how would icons fit into that organically, but what you said makes sense to me.
I'm still not convinced something like Dungeon Crawl Classics isn't a better fit for a WM game just straight out of the box, but if you like 13th Age and want to do West Marches, you've convinced me that it could be done without much hacking if any and still be fun.
I've never played DCC, so I can say which is better, but I like 13th Age and I think this is perfect for how I feel right now, that I don't want to be the GM all the time, but I'd like to be able to sit in the Captain's Chair once and awhile.
I think I'm going to put up a thread to open discussions on rules and whatnot and see if there is interest.
I think I mentioned before, but I also haven't played DCC. Just based on what I've heard it's good at (deadliness and dungeon crawling) it seems like it would work well for a WM hex crawl deal.
13th Age is my favorite game, and I think your ideas sound like a ton of fun. You talking about a PbP type thing, or like a roll20 deal or what not? I ask because I am always looking for chances to play more, as I typically end up GMing most of the time.
Yeah, West Marches is a game style that is pretty neat in concept, but I've never played. It's really built for groups that have rotating players, you never know who will show up from week to week, etc. Not the way my group is, but a very cool style for that type of group.
If you want to see some west marches gameplay in action, here is the playlist for Steven Lumpkin's Rollplay: The West Marches game that was streamed on itmejp's Rollplay channel. They were using D&D 5, and if you watch enough of it you see Steven struggling hard against the system, trying to hack a better inspiration mechanic into the game, trying to hack better reward structures into it, etc., because West Marches games need to reward players for non-combat victories too if the players manage them.
Anyway, my initial instinct is that 13th Age is not a good system for West Marches, despite my deep love for 13th Age. These are the reasons, and with more reflection and conversation maybe I'll alter my positions on these:
1) West Marches needs to be deadly. Part of the fun of it is entire parties will die, or lose a couple characters on an excursion just because it's a harsh ass world out there and the challenges are pre-built, not tailored to your level. You might explore your way into something you can't handle. 13th Age is not a game built for deadliness. The flee rule means outside of instant player death from going to negative half max-HP it's very hard to lose a character.
2) West Marches gameplay is built on people having different levels of progression. You could try to do this using incremental advances and such, but part of West Marches is that you're the level 3, almost 4 guy who has survived this long and now you're traveling with the level 2 and two new level 1 characters who haven't yet proved they can survive the wilds. You can't replicate that as easily in 13th Age.
3) One unique things probably aren't that compatible with West Marches. Sure you could make people create OUTs that fit into the box of West Marches style, but it takes creative control out of the player's hands.
4) Icon relationships don't make sense to me in WM style. Your idea about the icons being more local entities could probably work, but the thing i like about icon relationships is my player's choices help create the meta plot of the game, and in WM the meta plot is just exploring and overcoming challenges. What do you do if a player chooses to have a positive relationship with the diabolist cult and they roll dice and get that. The cult is going to help them fight the goblins 3 hexes over? Just trying to think through how they would work organically in WM style.
I have no doubt you could hack 13th Age a bit to make a WM game work in it, I just don't think it's the best option for it. My instinct is that games like Dungeon Crawl Classics or Torchbearer probably make for better games in the WM style, or just any OSR game with deadly combat. I do love 13th Age and though I'll probably never do one, am intrigued by this idea so I'm interested to hear what you come up with if you decide to do it.
If you want more West Marches resources, here are some:
Also, while I don't own it, I've heard this supplement for Dungeon World "Perilous Wilds" is a fantastic resource for West Marches play even if you're not playing DW. It's supposedly loaded with great random tables to encourage building a wilderness based around exploration and discovery, which is kind of what west marches is all about. http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/156979/The-Perilous-Wilds
The West Marches style of game is going to fight any system, imo. Most games assume you'll be the Big Damn Heroes, and that you'll be these big influencing force on the world at large. Which, you kinda are in a WM game. Your world is a tiny slice of a village/town/city against the darkness and you are the driving force to push it back. But let me break down the points you made, naysayer!
1- West Marches needs to be deadly. 13th Age can be deadly. It's not 5E deadly where a bad roll and a badder wizard can wreak the whole crew, but it's still got sharper teeth than 4E. I've seen many players force to the ground in fights after two-three hits. And that's before monsters get their Nasty Specials. I would think a WM game will be a game filled with Nasty Special monsters, pushing the players even harder than normal. The Fleeing rule in 13th Age says that its a campaign lost, which sounds like to me "This area is deadlier and stronger than before". I can see that working to keep the map shifting and moving, as far as the strength of the darkness is concerned. The next group will have to deal with the fallout of the last's failure. Didn't stop the cult from finishing their ritual? Now there is a powerful demon there opening up rifts to the Abyss and summoning an army. Failed to defeat the orc raiders? A forward outpost is now burned to the ground and the orcs are using it as a homebase while they attack different villages. So far 13th Age seems to be perfect for that deadly feel.
2- West Marches gameplay is built on people having different levels of progression. Sure, but what difference is there between a character in 5E being one level higher than a player being level 1 vs. two players at level 1 but one has two incremental advances? Gaining power is still gaining power, even if its just small steps instead of levels. I personally don't see a difference between the two. We can make rules on how many missions = incremental advances and levels, but the progression will still be there.
3- One unique things probably aren't that compatible with West Marches. This I will concede on this one, sort of. The idea that there is a whole town of people who are Super One of a Kind Unique would be hard to believe, but I don't use OUTs like that anyhow. I personally make OUTs be the defining thing about the character, the over all theme of who they are. So one might be "Vengeful Pirate Widow Seeking Her Husband's Old Crew for Jusitice", which isn't that unique in the grand scheme of things, but it is what people think about when they talk to your character. Some people's OUTs in normal game are weaksause anyhow, like odd skin colors/conditions or first to do something. Sure, you can make all sorts of shit with that but you can make all sorts of shit with less Unique OUTs too. So for the style of play I normally do with OUTs, this wouldn't be a problem. You'd just have to explain to people that while you can be the first, the last, the only of something, you don't have to be. You can just have a mission, a purpose, ect. Plus, I can see some missions that could be built from a few people's OUTs, so... point for 13th Age on WM!
4- Icon relationships don't make sense to me in WM style. They might actually. Why would people risk going out into the wilds? Icons. Who might benefit from adventurers diving into old ruins and stuff? Icons. Who might have the resources to fund these trips? Icons. Even if the Icon is smaller in scale, It doesn't matter. Your world, and what you see of it, is small too. Think about the 13th Age. Do yo think that the Dragon Empire is the only civilized place in the world? It's almost the size of Texas (seriously, look at the map and measure it out. Texas has it beat by a few miles). The Icons are only powerful in the Dragon Empire. Beyond that they're power fades until they aren't even names people have heard of. The political moving and shaking will still be here, and even better, at a more intimate setting. So the Icons aren't God-Tier people, but they are still there moving the pieces around, you could have Eclipse Phase style conflicting missions where one player is there to destroy some ancient relic for one Icon and another is there to collect it for an Icon, leading to drama. Sure, that isn't 100% dungeon crawl, but it gives purpose to the whole "We are going out to the darkness" shit. As far as help in your example, You got a positive relationship roll, so the Diabolist gives you a power that lets you turn into a demon for 3 rounds to use when you want to (which can be handled before you leave the town.) She "blesses" a weapon of yours, or something else. You don't have to have robed people show up and start chanting, there are other ways. As players start clearing out the darkness and turning some of the ruins into forward outposts under this group of that group, then maybe you'll see robed people show up and chanting because the area doesn't seem as dangerous as before and they felt they could handle it (which they are wrong, but that isn't the point.)
I think a 13th Age game wouldn't just fit for a WM style of game, I think it would enhance it more so then a simple Dungeon Crawler. It might require a small bit more planning by the GMs than normal, but it's not that much more than any other WM game.
Thanks for the discussion! I was hoping to be convinced the other way about some of my thoughts, and I think largely you did that.
1 - Deadliness. I didn't mean to suggest that 13th Age can't be hard. All the fights I run in my 13th Age game are built for parties that are like 2 and 3+ PCs larger than my party, and are likewise very tough. The dragon+kobolds fight from our last session put our tankiest guy unconscious 3 separate times the same fight, put our bard unconscious, the monk to 3 HP drinking health potions, the healer completely out of heal spells and at half health, and the wizard at 1/4th health with no spells left. The system can definitely push the players. I mainly meant unless you hack the game and take out the flee rule, only a big crit that just drops somebody to negative half max HP(will happen, already happened twice in my 13th Age game in 8 sessions and the PC only lived because I let them use icon tokens to prevent instant unavoidable deaths such as that) will kill a PC. They will otherwise just flee.
That being said, your counter point about how them fleeing might feel fun in a WM game because of how much harsher the area they just had to flee from just got is a great one, and a point in favor of 13th Age WM.
2 - I feel like 13th Age's balance is harsher in this way. HP/defenses scale up in such a way that if you had a level 4 PC and a level 1, the level 1 would have a hell of a time hitting a level 4 enemy, and would also be unconscious after maybe 2 or 3 hits from a single level 4 enemy, nevermind one that's higher. Maybe it doesn't matter anyway since WM gameplay isn't about throwing balanced challenges at the PCs. I read a houserule somebody had for a WM game which was a mentor type thing, if you're lower level than the rest of the party, after a session of adventuring with them, you gain a level, but it won't catch you up to them. So one level 4 PC and a couple level 2s adventure for a session, the 2s all go up to 3, but the next session they wouldn't go up to 4 just for adventuring with them. Kind of a cool catch-up mechanic for people bringing in new characters after deaths or just to join the game.
3 - Yeah, I was looking at this through the lens of how my game is using OUTs, which is they are things the players got to choose, with a social contract from me that I will help them explore them in the game. But they don't have to be used that way, you'd just make them more of a thing that's unique about the character, not necessarily more than that.
4 - Yeah, again I was thinking about what I know about WM style games, and how it's so much about exploration/treasure finding, and how would icons fit into that organically, but what you said makes sense to me.
I'm still not convinced something like Dungeon Crawl Classics isn't a better fit for a WM game just straight out of the box, but if you like 13th Age and want to do West Marches, you've convinced me that it could be done without much hacking if any and still be fun.
With the scaling thing maybe you could house rule some stuff to let characters attack at defenses more equal to their level but hit less hard unless they make the 'proper' defense value?
Actually, this is the best part of the whole deal. Because the game is a collection of one-shots, any format should work. So one group does a play by post, another can do Roll20, and another could do an IRC chat game. And if by the graces of the Gods Young and Old a group happens to meet in person, they can play in RL. The only thing that matters is mission success and the player's recounting of the events. Like in the video I posted, the map, and the history is all in the players' hands. So if they remembered something wrong, then everyone else is going to assume it's all truth, until otherwise found out. And because the map is drawn by the players and not the GMs, it's inherently going to be inaccurate, which means players might get "lost" looking for something a past group found. It's an evolving world, but only if the players bother to recount the tale, like adventurers in a tavern drinking and recounting their glories!
Basically what I'm thinking is start with 3 talents and 2-3 class features.
Ability Scores would be Con, Cha
Eldritch Attack Class Feature lets them use Con for melee attacks and Cha for ranged attacks
Magic Pact Class Feature is actually two different class features, they can choose either:
-Borrowed Magic gives you one non daily spell from any other class, as long as it's not granted by a class feature (so no Heal). You can only cast this spell once per day. You gain another such spell at 4th and 7th level, but your caster level is one-third your level (round down, but minimum caster level 1). A Champion Tier feat allows you to bump it to one-half your level (round down). An epic tier feat gives you a fourth such spell.
(this is the option for folks who want a more complex spell list)
-Spell Thief gives you one at-will spell from another class and can cast it once per encounter. At 6th you can cast it twice per encounter. You cast this spell at your full level. Feats for this basically mimic any feats you could get for that spell.
(this is the simpler option and just gives you a little bit of flair).
...in either case, whenever you gain a spell from the chose feature, you choose either Con or Cha, and use that ability for the spell instead of its normal ability.
For the last one I kinda wanna do something like "Talented Magician" that just gives you another starting talent. The whole premise of the class is that they take Talents that modify their Eldritch Attack, so giving them lots of talents gives them their flexibility and customizability.
For Talents, there would be a few keywords:
-"Eldritch" talents modify their Eldritch Attack. You can take as many as you want, and all benefits stack.
-"Patron" Talents you're limited to one but your GM miiiight be convinced to let you "retrain" that talent, with some pretty heavy story consequences. There is an "Iconic Patron" Talent that grants a +1 Conflicted relationship with the Icon you choose when you take it.
-"Pact" Talents grant varying benefits and typically describe the sorts of oath your character has sworn in exchange for their power. You can have more than one. Some of these talents are mutually exclusive, most are not.
I don't like jacking spells from other class lists because other classes already have things that do that, Bard, Chaos Mage, etc.
The CON based melee attacks things is already done by the fist sorcerer or whatever it's called.
It sounds like you're building somebody who just does basic attacks a ton which are modified by talents, which is kind of like the 5E warlock, but seems a bit boring to me in 13th Age. Maybe if the talents were more detailed it might sound more exciting to me.
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
Are there any cannon sources of additional spells for 13th Age? I really loved the teleport lock from 4e, and I was really hoping to do something similar more than once in a while at 7th level or w/e.
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
The only "official" books for 13A are the core book, 13TW, and the Bestiary, but there was a 13th Age compatible Deep Magic book made by Kobold Press that supposedly had like 500+ new spells in it. I think it was basically a conversion from a Pathfinder supplement.
I like the 13A spell lists as written so never considered getting it, but it might have stuff you're looking for.
Check out the Vault of the 13th Age (for some reason it seems to be down so use the Web Archive version) as there are two different Warlock classes built by other players there.
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
The main 13th Age book is all inclusive, correct? There isn't anything else you need to run the game?
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
Posts
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
It's an At-Will so as many times as they want.
Point out the fact that the mechanics of the game flesh out the characters with the One Unique Things, Backgrounds, and Icon Relationships. That you can literally know what that character is all about without having to read your players' prequel book that rivals LoTR in size.
Point at the combat being faster, deadlier, and smoother. The Escalation Die, Nastier Specials, Mooks. Point at how you can make balanced fights like 4E in the system and keep it fresh and interesting. How the fights are so quick that you hardly get bogged down with characters who are just spamming their best At-Wills.
Then... Point at the magic weapons and items page and show him Quirks. If he isn't hooked on the idea of running 13th Age, then drop him as a friend because you don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
They use one of their 1st level slots to stick that spell in, then they cast it as many times as they want because it's an at-will spell. It's for Clerics who don't want to be melee.
I've been working on my Warehouse 13th Age idea a bit but coming up with items that are so powerful that they were literally erased from existent and yet weak enough that the players can defeat it through smarts is kinda hard. So far I got three items I am liking.
Game Spoilers inside
The Flute of the Dragonheart- A small bone flute made from dragon bone that can call any dragons within a league (little over 3 miles) to the user's command, even the Three. But the right songs must be played, otherwise the dragons will react violently as it will be painful to hear it's call. Dragonborn/kin players will also be able to hear the flute's call but it will not be painful but annoying as it will nearly deafen them to any other sounds. Users with the flute will hear dragons roaring in their head, speaking to them in Draconic. Those who understand it will think that the voices are telling them to bring back the Age of the Dragons, before there were Emperors and such who ruled the Dragon Empire. I plan on using this as the first item that the players come across using the Blood and Lighting adventure from the back of the book.
Lady Amelia's Amulet of Dreaming- A amulet that makes your dreams come true. Not your wishes, but it warps reality to make the dreams you have when asleep become real. However, it also makes your Nightmares real too. I have an interesting idea of a little girl getting the amulet and creating a cartoonly fantasy kingdom where her and all her friends are princesses and knights and stuff but evil Orcs keep threatening her fantasy world.
Yea I'm a huge 4th ed proponent but 13th age is close enough that it scratches those itches. I love the escalation die, the one unique thing... It does a lot of things right. It's crunchier than 5th ed (Which I like) but not completely broken like Pathfinder.
I think a 4.5th ed would be amazing, condense the players handbooks into 1 book, same with the monster manuals, update the DMs guide and do a mega splatbook and update it all to the latest errata and fix the maths from the old books and do some other housekeeping and call it good.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
Importantly 13th Age leaves out the things I hated in 3.5 and 4E.
So true. I like the specific movement of 4th ed and the powers that take advantage of it, but at that point it is saying I like my 13th Age Pizza and my D&D 4th ed Cheeseburger. I love both, and just have to pick which one I want for dinner.
5th ed is probably a well done steak. Its not great, but its steak, and if I'm at someone elses BBQ with my group of friends well then its good enough, because hanging out with my friends is more important.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
They love the challenge, and I made it clear that this dragon was a risk/reward opportunity for them to get some magic items and gold plus the renown that comes with such an achievement, but that it would absolutely not be a "it's the appropriate level challenge for us at the level that we're currently at" type of deal.
I've no doubt they're going to win, because they're a very effective party, but hey, if they have to flee and take a setback that'll be fun too.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
Name your weapon "Punch"?
Like this is a semi-serious suggestion. You talk with your DM and work out a way to make it fit. 13th Age doesn't say a longsword does y, a longsword does whatever a single handle martial weapon does for your class. It really wouldn't break a damn thing if your "weapon" was your body. Like, keep the required number of hands free and I don't see any reason to care as a GM. There's the outside prison break scenario but those should be exceedingly rare and monks already fuck them up so w/e.
Brawler Fighter jumps out as the go to example.
A stuffy GM may point out the MC rules, but they're weak sauce for that sort of thing and a good GM is gonna say hell yeah to a good concept
If somebody told me they wanted to play a 13th Age char who was a big brawler who just slugged people with their fists, I wouldn't point them to the monk, which is all about finesse and weaving between forms.
I'd tell them to play a fighter and I'll let them use a d8 die for their punches and kicks just like they're using a longsword or whatever. Like, what's the harm? None. I guess there's RP scenarios where they are wanting to sneak into a place and it would be hard to hide a weapon but they don't have to worry about it, but who cares about that?
I'd encourage them to have their one unique thing be about why they're able to punch with such force that they do real legit damage with their fists.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
There's nothing that prohibits it, obviously.
This is totally the appropriate two handed weapon.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
I think this sounds cool as hell, and maybe something we might try. It's pretty much random groups doing one shot missions in the same world, each group mixing and matching their groups to explore the world and grow the map. We have a lot of people who like to play, a few people who like to run games, and it would be pretty cool as we can switch up stuff, GMs become players, players become GMs. Burn out might not happen as people can jump in and out as they want to. Would anyone want to figure out how we could do this with 13th Age?
My idea is a world that is destroyed by some major event that has been forgotten. The players and everyone only knows one town/city and the few villages and farms close to the town. Beyond this civilized area are wild areas; twisted forests that even druids struggle to understand, ruins of the old age filled with horrors that have found haven there, lands corrupted by arcane curses that has caused reality to mutant into something terrifying. Few people have ever tried to really explore the wild areas since the small civilized world has given them all they needed. But now, the population among the races is growing faster then ever, resources are running lower and lower, and it's now important to push back the darkness and grow outwards. So the Adventurer's Guild has come to being. It acts as a hub for everyone to gather together to pool in the knowledge of the adventurers, to collect the request from those in town, and to work together map out the world. The icons wouldn't be the God-Tier characters but instead people who hold large amount of power in the town. So instead of the Emperor, you'd have the Governor. The Diabolist might not be on our plane of existence, but has a small, hidden cult that is seeking to release her, dragons are rare things, but people still follow the Ways of the Three. Something like that.
Also, those gloves I was talking about:
Gauntlets of Maiming (recharge 16+):
These nasty, spiked gauntlets are invariably caked with blood and gore, no matter how much you scrub them. When you inflict a critical hit that does not kill your opponent, you may describe how your attack is especially painful, and may involve chopping off limbs or skewering organs. The GM might even let this hamper or daze your enemy, or give a penalty to a particular special attack (“how’s that manticore going to make a tail spikes attack now that I’ve cut off his tail!*”)
Quirk: Squeamish and gentle outside of combat.
Edit: Also the Fist Wrought of Blood in 13 True Ways, page 225.
If you want to see some west marches gameplay in action, here is the playlist for Steven Lumpkin's Rollplay: The West Marches game that was streamed on itmejp's Rollplay channel. They were using D&D 5, and if you watch enough of it you see Steven struggling hard against the system, trying to hack a better inspiration mechanic into the game, trying to hack better reward structures into it, etc., because West Marches games need to reward players for non-combat victories like exploration and finding ways to get treasure without killing things.
Anyway, my initial instinct is that 13th Age is not a good system for West Marches, despite my deep love for 13th Age. These are the reasons, and with more reflection and conversation maybe I'll alter my positions on these:
1) West Marches needs to be deadly. Part of the fun of it is entire parties will die, or lose a couple characters on an excursion just because it's a harsh ass world out there and the challenges are pre-built, not tailored to your level. You might explore your way into something you can't handle. 13th Age is not a game built for deadliness. The flee rule means outside of instant player death from going to negative half max-HP it's very hard to lose a character.
2) West Marches gameplay is built on people having different levels of progression. You could try to do this using incremental advances and such, but part of West Marches is that you're the level 3, almost 4 guy who has survived this long and now you're traveling with the level 2 and two new level 1 characters who haven't yet proved they can survive the wilds. You can't replicate that as easily in 13th Age.
3) One unique things probably aren't that compatible with West Marches. Sure you could make people create OUTs that fit into the box of West Marches style, but it takes creative control out of the player's hands.
4) Icon relationships don't make sense to me in WM style. Your idea about the icons being more local entities could probably work, but the thing i like about icon relationships is my player's choices help create the meta plot of the game, and in WM the meta plot is just exploring and overcoming challenges. What do you do if a player chooses to have a positive relationship with the diabolist cult and they roll dice and get that. The cult is going to help them fight the goblins 3 hexes over? Just trying to think through how they would work organically in WM style.
I have no doubt you could hack 13th Age a bit to make a WM game work in it, I just don't think it's the best option for it. My instinct is that games like Dungeon Crawl Classics or Torchbearer probably make for better games in the WM style, or just any OSR game with deadly combat. I do love 13th Age and though I'll probably never do one, am intrigued by this idea so I'm interested to hear what you come up with if you decide to do it.
If you want more West Marches resources, here are some:
This is where the idea of West Marches began:
http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/78/grand-experiments-west-marches/
This is a big ass list of West Marches helpful resources put together by Steven Lumpkin, the GM from the west marches game on youtube that I linked up above:
https://roll1d100.blogspot.ie/2016/08/west-marches-resources.html
Also, while I don't own it, I've heard this supplement for Dungeon World "Perilous Wilds" is a fantastic resource for West Marches play even if you're not playing DW. It's supposedly loaded with great random tables to encourage building a wilderness based around exploration and discovery, which is kind of what west marches is all about.
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/156979/The-Perilous-Wilds
Started out doing a "4 days earlier" scene having the players as audience see their characters leaving the town of Venture to head west toward the young white dragon's cave. As they had just left, we saw a man in dark armor riding a horse up from the south(this guy was the result of our bard rolling a 1 on his Balladeer talent cursed dice with the icon The Blood Pontiff, who is the leader of one of the human nations who have an undead army, worship blood, etc.)
We get right into this battle with the dragon. I've made it clear to my players and the characters that choosing to go after this dragon was a risk/reward choice, and not a "this is balanced for your party" choice. The fight was the young white dragon, 3 kobold heroes, 6 kobold wizard mooks, and 6 kobold skyclaw mooks. Balance wise it was "fair" for 9 level 2 PCs, and w have 5 level 2 PCs.
It went awesome. The dragon started faraway, and the kobolds all started raining damage, and the kobold heroes engaged the party. Every time a kobold hero landed an attack, the next attack by all other non-leader kobolds got +3 damage added to it, taking the mook damage from 3 and 4 damage to 6 and 7 damage, very scary. So the party now realizes they have to prioritize the mooks, and they did their best.
On round 2, the Paladin/Commander who is the closest thing the party has to a tank disengages and moves to engage the dragon who delayed and moved to nearby the last round, but hadn't yet engaged a PC. It was a good move, because the dragon was about to fly over and attack the party druid healer who had put himself a bit out of position. The Paladin gets paladin's challenge on the dragon and he's feeling good. The rest of the party is trying to handle the rest of the kobolds while he holds down the dragon. Then the dragon lands both its claw and bite attack, then crits him with its breath and puts him unconscious. He has a regeneration spell on him that he's getting lucky with and keeping it rolling, so he's getting up each turn and trying to do what he can before getting knocked back down again.
Finally they get the rest of the enemies down, but our monk has had to drink 2 healing potions, our healer is completely out of spells, the bard is out of every spell/song, and the only daily spell left is an acid arrow.
My wife's wizard evokes an acid arrow for what would've been the finisher on the dragon at escalation +4, I think it had 28 HP left and the arrow would've done 40, but she misses it. She ended up getting the killing blow the next round with color spray, because it was the best option she had left, ray of frost would've been resisted by the dragon, magic missile doesn't do as much damage, etc.
Meanwhile just as they are taking a breather, the guy we saw in the opening scene with the bastard sword and the charcoal colored armor shows up. My wife's character knows who he is because he's from her country, a guy with the title of knightslayer from his actions in the war that ended a couple years before. He's there to challenge the party bard to a duel to teach him a lesson about using his ballad songs to speak ill of the Blood Pontiff(cursed dice 1 result I mentioned earlier). The bard agrees to fight him, I have the guy put his sword up and just punch the bard twice into unconsciousness. I actually statted the NPC out because he will definitely be a recurring character. The bard's player loved it, and played up the fact that he had no hard feelings against the guy about it. After they fought, the NPC left.
After that, they collected the treasure and got their heal up, then while searching the room passed a skill check that led them to find claw marks in the ground of the cave as though the dragon was trying to dig, wife's wizard used cantrip mastery to use acid arrow to burn through the stone floor revealing an old underground tunnel, some dwarf skeletons and a locked chest. Another skill check to learn that the type of lock used on the chest was tamper-proof and would destroy the contents of the chest if they failed to open it correctly. Then it was time for the party bard to try to pick the thing. I am transparent about skill check difficulties and stakes, so he knew it was a DC25, so about a 25% chance of success for him. He opted to spend one of his 6 tokens with the prince of shadows to pass the skill check and unlock it, getting the party even more treasure.
After that they opted to take a break from adventuring to do some personal downtime stuff for a couple months of in-game time, since they'd been non-stop putting out fires together for a little over 2 months of in-game calendar since the game had started. We got to see all of them plant some seeds for interesting future developments, then they regrouped and had a fun in-character discussion together about some of the stuff they did during the break and figuring out what was next for them.
My wife laid a seed during her downtime that she knew would get one of the other PCs excited, so the party decided to follow up on that, and we created the next town they were going to head to together. I went around the table asking people to tell me details about this town, and it turned out so great. Everybody got really engaged with helping create details of the next place they're going to go, and it basically created my next fronts for me, which combined with the second round of story guidance icon rolls we did, pretty much gives me all the creative juice I need to flesh out all the players and dangers and stuff that we'll be exploring in the upcoming sessions.
The West Marches style of game is going to fight any system, imo. Most games assume you'll be the Big Damn Heroes, and that you'll be these big influencing force on the world at large. Which, you kinda are in a WM game. Your world is a tiny slice of a village/town/city against the darkness and you are the driving force to push it back. But let me break down the points you made, naysayer!
1- West Marches needs to be deadly. 13th Age can be deadly. It's not 5E deadly where a bad roll and a badder wizard can wreak the whole crew, but it's still got sharper teeth than 4E. I've seen many players force to the ground in fights after two-three hits. And that's before monsters get their Nasty Specials. I would think a WM game will be a game filled with Nasty Special monsters, pushing the players even harder than normal. The Fleeing rule in 13th Age says that its a campaign lost, which sounds like to me "This area is deadlier and stronger than before". I can see that working to keep the map shifting and moving, as far as the strength of the darkness is concerned. The next group will have to deal with the fallout of the last's failure. Didn't stop the cult from finishing their ritual? Now there is a powerful demon there opening up rifts to the Abyss and summoning an army. Failed to defeat the orc raiders? A forward outpost is now burned to the ground and the orcs are using it as a homebase while they attack different villages. So far 13th Age seems to be perfect for that deadly feel.
2- West Marches gameplay is built on people having different levels of progression. Sure, but what difference is there between a character in 5E being one level higher than a player being level 1 vs. two players at level 1 but one has two incremental advances? Gaining power is still gaining power, even if its just small steps instead of levels. I personally don't see a difference between the two. We can make rules on how many missions = incremental advances and levels, but the progression will still be there.
3- One unique things probably aren't that compatible with West Marches. This I will concede on this one, sort of. The idea that there is a whole town of people who are Super One of a Kind Unique would be hard to believe, but I don't use OUTs like that anyhow. I personally make OUTs be the defining thing about the character, the over all theme of who they are. So one might be "Vengeful Pirate Widow Seeking Her Husband's Old Crew for Jusitice", which isn't that unique in the grand scheme of things, but it is what people think about when they talk to your character. Some people's OUTs in normal game are weaksause anyhow, like odd skin colors/conditions or first to do something. Sure, you can make all sorts of shit with that but you can make all sorts of shit with less Unique OUTs too. So for the style of play I normally do with OUTs, this wouldn't be a problem. You'd just have to explain to people that while you can be the first, the last, the only of something, you don't have to be. You can just have a mission, a purpose, ect. Plus, I can see some missions that could be built from a few people's OUTs, so... point for 13th Age on WM!
4- Icon relationships don't make sense to me in WM style. They might actually. Why would people risk going out into the wilds? Icons. Who might benefit from adventurers diving into old ruins and stuff? Icons. Who might have the resources to fund these trips? Icons. Even if the Icon is smaller in scale, It doesn't matter. Your world, and what you see of it, is small too. Think about the 13th Age. Do yo think that the Dragon Empire is the only civilized place in the world? It's almost the size of Texas (seriously, look at the map and measure it out. Texas has it beat by a few miles). The Icons are only powerful in the Dragon Empire. Beyond that they're power fades until they aren't even names people have heard of. The political moving and shaking will still be here, and even better, at a more intimate setting. So the Icons aren't God-Tier people, but they are still there moving the pieces around, you could have Eclipse Phase style conflicting missions where one player is there to destroy some ancient relic for one Icon and another is there to collect it for an Icon, leading to drama. Sure, that isn't 100% dungeon crawl, but it gives purpose to the whole "We are going out to the darkness" shit. As far as help in your example, You got a positive relationship roll, so the Diabolist gives you a power that lets you turn into a demon for 3 rounds to use when you want to (which can be handled before you leave the town.) She "blesses" a weapon of yours, or something else. You don't have to have robed people show up and start chanting, there are other ways. As players start clearing out the darkness and turning some of the ruins into forward outposts under this group of that group, then maybe you'll see robed people show up and chanting because the area doesn't seem as dangerous as before and they felt they could handle it (which they are wrong, but that isn't the point.)
I think a 13th Age game wouldn't just fit for a WM style of game, I think it would enhance it more so then a simple Dungeon Crawler. It might require a small bit more planning by the GMs than normal, but it's not that much more than any other WM game.
For what it's worth I'm pretty meh on most fantasy roleplaying things but this all sounds super fun to me.
Thanks for the discussion! I was hoping to be convinced the other way about some of my thoughts, and I think largely you did that.
1 - Deadliness. I didn't mean to suggest that 13th Age can't be hard. All the fights I run in my 13th Age game are built for parties that are like 2 and 3+ PCs larger than my party, and are likewise very tough. The dragon+kobolds fight from our last session put our tankiest guy unconscious 3 separate times the same fight, put our bard unconscious, the monk to 3 HP drinking health potions, the healer completely out of heal spells and at half health, and the wizard at 1/4th health with no spells left. The system can definitely push the players. I mainly meant unless you hack the game and take out the flee rule, only a big crit that just drops somebody to negative half max HP(will happen, already happened twice in my 13th Age game in 8 sessions and the PC only lived because I let them use icon tokens to prevent instant unavoidable deaths such as that) will kill a PC. They will otherwise just flee.
That being said, your counter point about how them fleeing might feel fun in a WM game because of how much harsher the area they just had to flee from just got is a great one, and a point in favor of 13th Age WM.
2 - I feel like 13th Age's balance is harsher in this way. HP/defenses scale up in such a way that if you had a level 4 PC and a level 1, the level 1 would have a hell of a time hitting a level 4 enemy, and would also be unconscious after maybe 2 or 3 hits from a single level 4 enemy, nevermind one that's higher. Maybe it doesn't matter anyway since WM gameplay isn't about throwing balanced challenges at the PCs. I read a houserule somebody had for a WM game which was a mentor type thing, if you're lower level than the rest of the party, after a session of adventuring with them, you gain a level, but it won't catch you up to them. So one level 4 PC and a couple level 2s adventure for a session, the 2s all go up to 3, but the next session they wouldn't go up to 4 just for adventuring with them. Kind of a cool catch-up mechanic for people bringing in new characters after deaths or just to join the game.
3 - Yeah, I was looking at this through the lens of how my game is using OUTs, which is they are things the players got to choose, with a social contract from me that I will help them explore them in the game. But they don't have to be used that way, you'd just make them more of a thing that's unique about the character, not necessarily more than that.
4 - Yeah, again I was thinking about what I know about WM style games, and how it's so much about exploration/treasure finding, and how would icons fit into that organically, but what you said makes sense to me.
I'm still not convinced something like Dungeon Crawl Classics isn't a better fit for a WM game just straight out of the box, but if you like 13th Age and want to do West Marches, you've convinced me that it could be done without much hacking if any and still be fun.
I think I'm going to put up a thread to open discussions on rules and whatnot and see if there is interest.
13th Age is my favorite game, and I think your ideas sound like a ton of fun. You talking about a PbP type thing, or like a roll20 deal or what not? I ask because I am always looking for chances to play more, as I typically end up GMing most of the time.
With the scaling thing maybe you could house rule some stuff to let characters attack at defenses more equal to their level but hit less hard unless they make the 'proper' defense value?
Ability Scores would be Con, Cha
Eldritch Attack Class Feature lets them use Con for melee attacks and Cha for ranged attacks
Magic Pact Class Feature is actually two different class features, they can choose either:
-Borrowed Magic gives you one non daily spell from any other class, as long as it's not granted by a class feature (so no Heal). You can only cast this spell once per day. You gain another such spell at 4th and 7th level, but your caster level is one-third your level (round down, but minimum caster level 1). A Champion Tier feat allows you to bump it to one-half your level (round down). An epic tier feat gives you a fourth such spell.
(this is the option for folks who want a more complex spell list)
-Spell Thief gives you one at-will spell from another class and can cast it once per encounter. At 6th you can cast it twice per encounter. You cast this spell at your full level. Feats for this basically mimic any feats you could get for that spell.
(this is the simpler option and just gives you a little bit of flair).
...in either case, whenever you gain a spell from the chose feature, you choose either Con or Cha, and use that ability for the spell instead of its normal ability.
For the last one I kinda wanna do something like "Talented Magician" that just gives you another starting talent. The whole premise of the class is that they take Talents that modify their Eldritch Attack, so giving them lots of talents gives them their flexibility and customizability.
For Talents, there would be a few keywords:
-"Eldritch" talents modify their Eldritch Attack. You can take as many as you want, and all benefits stack.
-"Patron" Talents you're limited to one but your GM miiiight be convinced to let you "retrain" that talent, with some pretty heavy story consequences. There is an "Iconic Patron" Talent that grants a +1 Conflicted relationship with the Icon you choose when you take it.
-"Pact" Talents grant varying benefits and typically describe the sorts of oath your character has sworn in exchange for their power. You can have more than one. Some of these talents are mutually exclusive, most are not.
...thoughts?
The CON based melee attacks things is already done by the fist sorcerer or whatever it's called.
It sounds like you're building somebody who just does basic attacks a ton which are modified by talents, which is kind of like the 5E warlock, but seems a bit boring to me in 13th Age. Maybe if the talents were more detailed it might sound more exciting to me.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
I like the 13A spell lists as written so never considered getting it, but it might have stuff you're looking for.
Check out the Vault of the 13th Age (for some reason it seems to be down so use the Web Archive version) as there are two different Warlock classes built by other players there.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain