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FINALS: PRE-FIGHT DEBATE

13

Posts

  • BlankspaceBlankspace __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2006
    Monkeydrye wrote:
    What I heard through the grapevine is that Odin allowed Supes to pick up the hammar (that is one of the two possible requirements you can fill to lift it). The other is blah blah blah virtue etc., which only Beta Ray Bill has been able to do (and it surprised the fuck out of Odin).

    So, what were the circumstances of WW picking it up in that picture.
    I belive it's in Marvel vs. DC which is no longer canon, so her ability to pick it up is in question. She could be worthy in a normal situation but I doubt Odin would let her use it to pound the crap out of Thor.

    Blankspace on
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  • RonnieWooWoo!RonnieWooWoo! Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Since it's almost a foregone conclusion that WW and Superman are going to team up here, it comes down to who they team up AGAINST to decide who gets 1st and who gets 4th. Either way, the person they team up against is going to get a beating, and the person they ignore is going to rape them from behind for the eventual win.

    RonnieWooWoo! on
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  • GABBO GABBO GABBOGABBO GABBO GABBO Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Odin doesn't have to "allow" someone to pick up Mjolnir. Mjolnir just has to deem them worthy. Otherwise Beta Ray Bill wouldn't have been able to take it from Thor.

    GABBO GABBO GABBO on
  • BlankspaceBlankspace __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2006
    Manifest wrote:
    Odin doesn't have to "allow" someone to pick up Mjolnir. Mjolnir just has to deem them worthy. Otherwise Beta Ray Bill wouldn't have been able to take it from Thor.
    jlaavengersym5.jpg
    This makes it seem that the people that are worthy can only lift the hammer when there is some shit going down. I don't think that Superman/Wonder Woman beating on Thor qualifies as that.

    Blankspace on
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  • GABBO GABBO GABBOGABBO GABBO GABBO Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Manifest wrote:
    Odin doesn't have to "allow" someone to pick up Mjolnir. Mjolnir just has to deem them worthy. Otherwise Beta Ray Bill wouldn't have been able to take it from Thor.
    jlaavengersym5.jpg
    This makes it seem that the people that are worthy can only lift the hammer when there is some shit going down. I don't think that Superman/Wonder Woman beating on Thor qualifies as that.

    That completely rectons events that happened in Thor's actual comic when Beta Ray Bill picked it up during a fight with Thor.
    When forced to pick who to believe, I'd go with the actual Thor comic over the crossover.

    GABBO GABBO GABBO on
  • BlankspaceBlankspace __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2006
    Manifest wrote:
    Manifest wrote:
    Odin doesn't have to "allow" someone to pick up Mjolnir. Mjolnir just has to deem them worthy. Otherwise Beta Ray Bill wouldn't have been able to take it from Thor.
    jlaavengersym5.jpg
    This makes it seem that the people that are worthy can only lift the hammer when there is some shit going down. I don't think that Superman/Wonder Woman beating on Thor qualifies as that.

    That completely rectons events that happened in Thor's actual comic when Beta Ray Bill picked it up during a fight with Thor.
    When forced to pick who to believe, I'd go with the actual Thor comic over the crossover.
    If it's printed it's in continuity until someone officially says otherwise.
    That's how it's always been.
    Seeing as how JLA/Avengers is the more recent event I'd go with it's version more, yes Beta Ray Bill picked up the hammer but that comic was published in 1983. I'd trust the one published in 2003's story over the 23 year old comic.

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  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    So...Thor realizes that there's the danger of him losing his hammer if he throws it, so he just doesn't? Seems like WW and Supes would have to engage him in melee combat anyways, so he doesn't need the range, and if he's not throwing it, I don't see WW or Supes being able to wrest it from him.

    Oh, and...berserker rage, wha? I don't know much about Thor, and I'm not contesting that, but it sounds silly. But if true, it sounds like 10x a roughly equivalent strength to Superman and WW would put Thor over the top.

    Septus on
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  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Wasn't Beta Ray Bill in desperate need of a weapon with which to defend his people as they wandered the universe in search of a new home after recurring sieges at the hands of interstellar demons?

    Those're special circumstances.

    robosagogo on
  • GABBO GABBO GABBOGABBO GABBO GABBO Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    robosagogo wrote:
    Wasn't Beta Ray Bill in desperate need of a weapon with which to defend his people as they wandered the universe in search of a new home after recurring sieges at the hands of interstellar demons?

    Those're special circumstances.

    Beta Ray Bill wasn't in desperate anything. He'd kicked Thor's ass, and when Thor was separated from Mjolnir he reverted to his human form, and Bill wanting to take Thor's weapon grabbed the cane and smacked it into the ground to transform.

    Seriously, ignoring continuity in a character's own book is totally stupid.

    GABBO GABBO GABBO on
  • BlankspaceBlankspace __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2006
    Manifest wrote:
    robosagogo wrote:
    Wasn't Beta Ray Bill in desperate need of a weapon with which to defend his people as they wandered the universe in search of a new home after recurring sieges at the hands of interstellar demons?

    Those're special circumstances.

    Beta Ray Bill wasn't in desperate anything. He'd kicked Thor's ass, and when Thor was separated from Mjolnir he reverted to his human form, and Bill wanting to take Thor's weapon grabbed the cane and smacked it into the ground to transform.

    Seriously, ignoring continuity in a character's own book is totally stupid.
    Wikipedia wrote:
    Searching for a new home, they refuelled upon a star in an empty solar system - which was spotted by a S.H.I.E.L.D. deep-space probe, who saw that they were heading for Earth's solar system at superluminal speed. Worried, they contacted Thor, who immediately flew to the ship. Skuttlebutt's artillery proved ineffective, and Thor entered by ripping a hole in the side of the ship, whereupon Skuttlebutt awoke Bill. Mistaking Thor for a new breed of the demons that pursued them, they fought, while the damage caused by Thor forced Skuttlebutt to find an appropriate landing spot to seek materials and effect repairs: Earth.

    Finally, Thor, having been out of contact with his hammer - Mjolnir - beyond the prescribed time limit, reverted to his mortal form and was knocked out by Bill, shortly before Skuttlebutt crash-landed on Earth. With Skuttlebutt seriously damaged and a cadre of S.H.I.E.L.D. agents and artillery threatening them, Bill reached for Mjolnir, finding only a cane. Striking it angrily on the wall, however, activated it - and he became only the third being, after Odin and Thor himself, to be judged worthy of wielding the enchanted hammer. With Thor's power added to his own (and dressed in a variant of Thor's own costuming), he ordered the S.H.I.E.L.D. agents to depart. As S.H.I.E.L.D. opened fire instead, and Bill prepared to retailiate, Odin, attempting to recall Thor to Asgard, instead took Bill, cloaked as he was in Thor's power, leaving a desperate Don Blake (Thor in his mortal form) behind.
    Sounds pretty desperate to me.

    Blankspace on
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  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Manifest wrote:
    robosagogo wrote:
    Wasn't Beta Ray Bill in desperate need of a weapon with which to defend his people as they wandered the universe in search of a new home after recurring sieges at the hands of interstellar demons?

    Those're special circumstances.

    Beta Ray Bill wasn't in desperate anything. He'd kicked Thor's ass, and when Thor was separated from Mjolnir he reverted to his human form, and Bill wanting to take Thor's weapon grabbed the cane and smacked it into the ground to transform.

    Seriously, ignoring continuity in a character's own book is totally stupid.
    He didn't need it to beat Thor. He needed it to defend his people. That's why Odin gave him a magic hammer of his own afterwards, because he needed one really badly.

    robosagogo on
  • VapidVapid Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    I think most of us know what we want. An epic Thor vs. Superman showdown like none other. I could see Wonder Woman, being the warrior that she is, letting those two duke it out while she goes after Shade. However, I have no idea who would win, so I'm just going to go with Thor, because man is he badass.

    Vapid on
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  • GABBO GABBO GABBOGABBO GABBO GABBO Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    robosagogo wrote:
    Manifest wrote:
    robosagogo wrote:
    Wasn't Beta Ray Bill in desperate need of a weapon with which to defend his people as they wandered the universe in search of a new home after recurring sieges at the hands of interstellar demons?

    Those're special circumstances.

    Beta Ray Bill wasn't in desperate anything. He'd kicked Thor's ass, and when Thor was separated from Mjolnir he reverted to his human form, and Bill wanting to take Thor's weapon grabbed the cane and smacked it into the ground to transform.

    Seriously, ignoring continuity in a character's own book is totally stupid.
    He didn't need it to beat Thor. He needed it to defend his people. That's why Odin gave him a magic hammer of his own afterwards, because he needed one really badly.

    This whole "desperation" thing is such a fucking cop out.
    Who's to say that a crazy battle between four super powerful beings isn't desperation?

    GABBO GABBO GABBO on
  • BlankspaceBlankspace __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2006
    Manifest wrote:
    robosagogo wrote:
    Manifest wrote:
    robosagogo wrote:
    Wasn't Beta Ray Bill in desperate need of a weapon with which to defend his people as they wandered the universe in search of a new home after recurring sieges at the hands of interstellar demons?

    Those're special circumstances.

    Beta Ray Bill wasn't in desperate anything. He'd kicked Thor's ass, and when Thor was separated from Mjolnir he reverted to his human form, and Bill wanting to take Thor's weapon grabbed the cane and smacked it into the ground to transform.

    Seriously, ignoring continuity in a character's own book is totally stupid.
    He didn't need it to beat Thor. He needed it to defend his people. That's why Odin gave him a magic hammer of his own afterwards, because he needed one really badly.

    This whole "desperation" thing is such a fucking cop out.
    Who's to say that a crazy battle between four super powerful beings isn't desperation?
    A Warrior trying to find a home for his race, was attacked by Thor, bested him was about to be killed so grabbed Mjolnir? Desperate.
    Someone trying to use Mjolnir to beat Thor in a tournament where there is no immediate threat outside of losing the tournament? Not Desperate.

    Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

    Blankspace on
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  • Spectre-xSpectre-x Rating: AWESOME YESRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Mjolnir can be lifted by ayone worthy, yes.

    But Odin can also influence the hammer's enchantments. He's stopped it from returning to Thor several times. There's no reason why Odin couldn't allow Superman to pick it up if he were otherwise deemed unworthy because he doesn't have, like, a warrior's soul or whatever.

    Odin's will > Mjolnir.

    Spectre-x on
  • BlankspaceBlankspace __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2006
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Mjolnir can be lifted by ayone worthy, yes.

    But Odin can also influence the hammer's enchantments. He's stopped it from returning to Thor several times. There's no reason why Odin couldn't allow Superman to pick it up if he were otherwise deemed unworthy because he doesn't have, like, a warrior's soul or whatever.

    Odin's will > Mjolnir.
    Odin's will > Pretty much anything.

    According to Marvel Ultimate Alliance anyways.

    Blankspace on
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  • GABBO GABBO GABBOGABBO GABBO GABBO Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Mjolnir can be lifted by ayone worthy, yes.

    But Odin can also influence the hammer's enchantments. He's stopped it from returning to Thor several times. There's no reason why Odin couldn't allow Superman to pick it up if he were otherwise deemed unworthy because he doesn't have, like, a warrior's soul or whatever.

    Odin's will > Mjolnir.

    Except for the fact that as far as we know, he died with the rest of the Norse gods during Ragnarok.
    Seriously, this isn't Odin+Thor vs everyone else. It's Thor vs Everyone else.

    GABBO GABBO GABBO on
  • GABBO GABBO GABBOGABBO GABBO GABBO Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Mjolnir can be lifted by ayone worthy, yes.

    But Odin can also influence the hammer's enchantments. He's stopped it from returning to Thor several times. There's no reason why Odin couldn't allow Superman to pick it up if he were otherwise deemed unworthy because he doesn't have, like, a warrior's soul or whatever.

    Odin's will > Mjolnir.
    Odin's will > Pretty much anything.

    According to Marvel Ultimate Alliance anyways.

    If you're going to use a videogame to back up any argument you're in the wrong forum.

    GABBO GABBO GABBO on
  • BlankspaceBlankspace __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2006
    Manifest wrote:
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Mjolnir can be lifted by ayone worthy, yes.

    But Odin can also influence the hammer's enchantments. He's stopped it from returning to Thor several times. There's no reason why Odin couldn't allow Superman to pick it up if he were otherwise deemed unworthy because he doesn't have, like, a warrior's soul or whatever.

    Odin's will > Mjolnir.
    Odin's will > Pretty much anything.

    According to Marvel Ultimate Alliance anyways.

    If you're going to use a videogame to back up any argument you're in the wrong forum.
    I wasn't arguing anything. I know there are much bigger forces in the Marvel Universe than Odin, I was just making a comment.

    Also, seeing how Thor isn't technically around as of now in the Marvel Universe(We've only seen Donald Blake and the big ole' Lightning Bolt, but no Thor.) this has to be a old version of Thor, meaning that Odin would effect Mjolnir.

    Blankspace on
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  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Manifest wrote:
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Mjolnir can be lifted by ayone worthy, yes.

    But Odin can also influence the hammer's enchantments. He's stopped it from returning to Thor several times. There's no reason why Odin couldn't allow Superman to pick it up if he were otherwise deemed unworthy because he doesn't have, like, a warrior's soul or whatever.

    Odin's will > Mjolnir.

    Except for the fact that as far as we know, he died with the rest of the Norse gods during Ragnarok.
    Seriously, this isn't Odin+Thor vs everyone else. It's Thor vs Everyone else.

    This is an old version of Thor, before that whole Odinforce thing.

    Scooter on
  • CrayonCrayon Sleeps in the wrong bed. TejasRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Ummm...Thor...has magic. Superman...you know...sucks against it.

    Thor honestly seems to be much much stronger than Wonder Woman in almost every single aspect, and Thor isn't vulnerable to Magic.

    Crayon on
  • Bad KarmaBad Karma Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Crayon wrote:
    Ummm...Thor...has magic. Superman...you know...sucks against it.

    Thor honestly seems to be much much stronger than Wonder Woman in almost every single aspect, and Thor isn't vulnerable to Magic.

    But Wonder Woman has a sword.

    Bad Karma on
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  • AngryAngry The glory I had witnessed was just a sleight of handRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Bad Karma wrote:
    Crayon wrote:
    Ummm...Thor...has magic. Superman...you know...sucks against it.

    Thor honestly seems to be much much stronger than Wonder Woman in almost every single aspect, and Thor isn't vulnerable to Magic.

    But Wonder Woman has a sword.

    rock beats scissors.

    Angry on
  • GABBO GABBO GABBOGABBO GABBO GABBO Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Bad Karma wrote:
    Crayon wrote:
    Ummm...Thor...has magic. Superman...you know...sucks against it.

    Thor honestly seems to be much much stronger than Wonder Woman in almost every single aspect, and Thor isn't vulnerable to Magic.

    But Wonder Woman has a sword.

    And a lasso.

    The way I see it this is all going to come down to Wonder Woman vs Thor.
    I could go either way on it.

    GABBO GABBO GABBO on
  • Bad KarmaBad Karma Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Angry wrote:
    Bad Karma wrote:
    Crayon wrote:
    Ummm...Thor...has magic. Superman...you know...sucks against it.

    Thor honestly seems to be much much stronger than Wonder Woman in almost every single aspect, and Thor isn't vulnerable to Magic.

    But Wonder Woman has a sword.

    rock beats scissors.

    Hephasteus beats Mjolnir

    Bad Karma on
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  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    I've never read a solo Thor adventure. What're the mechanics of his invulnerability?

    robosagogo on
  • ZeroCowZeroCow Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Bad Karma wrote:
    Crayon wrote:
    Ummm...Thor...has magic. Superman...you know...sucks against it.

    Thor honestly seems to be much much stronger than Wonder Woman in almost every single aspect, and Thor isn't vulnerable to Magic.

    But Wonder Woman has a sword.
    But it'll be Thor that impales Wonder Woman....
    <_<
    >_>

    ZeroCow on
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  • NondocNondoc Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Wikipedia wrote:
    Mjolnir returns to the exact spot from which it is thrown after striking its target, otherwise it returns to Thor when summoned.

    So, assuming Supes or WW did manage to grab the hammer, Thor should theoretically just be able to take it back whenever he wants to anyway.

    Nondoc on
  • SnoogySnoogy Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Isn't the sword of hephestus "special equipment" for WW, and therefore not allowed in the finals?

    The way I see it, there isn't anything to stop Thor from useing the 1.21 Jiggawat shuffle to drop Supes and WW friom lassoing (can lasso be a verb?) Shade to beat the crap out of him. Between Thor and WW? I think the hammer trumps the golden rope.

    Snoogy on
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Shade can make the lasso go through him, teleport, and completely conceal himself in darkness.

    So 3 ways to avoid getting lassoed.

    robosagogo on
  • HenslerHensler Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Hmmm, the more I read about Shade, the more he sounds like one of the protagonists in the novel I quit school to write. Looking back, that thing is total shit, and I'm thinking I probably read a Shade book as a kid and just assmiliated the idea. I feel much less creative now.

    Hensler on
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Hensler wrote:
    Hmmm, the more I read about Shade, the more he sounds like one of the protagonists in the novel I quit school to write. Looking back, that thing is total shit, and I'm thinking I probably read a Shade book as a kid and just assmiliated the idea. I feel much less creative now.
    Didn't Tycho once think it'd be a good idea to create a female assassin who fought with a scythe named, aptly, Scythe?

    It was something like,
    If killing's like walking... then I guess I've been walking my entire life.

    I've had worse money-making schemes myself.

    robosagogo on
  • Adaemus1sfAdaemus1sf Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    That JLA/Avengers page isn't saying that Odin decides who gets to pick up Mjolnir, it's saying that Superman isn't worthy to pick it up, and only did so because Odin removed the enchantment, which he's unlikely to do here, if he can even affect Battleworld. I find it hard to believe Supes isn't worthy, but I guess he's not. I'd imagine Wonder Woman would be worthy. Also, Mjolnir doesn't just toss lightning or get thrown to give Thor range. He can fire bolts of various kinds of energy, at least one of which I recall being a channeled blast of Odinforce, which is probably magical. I don't have citations, though, so I guess it doesn't count.

    Adaemus1sf on
  • Mai-KeroMai-Kero Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    I'm not sure Wonder Woman would be worthy seeing as how she murdered an innocent Giffen character.

    Mai-Kero on
  • Adaemus1sfAdaemus1sf Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Mai-Kero wrote:
    I'm not sure Wonder Woman would be worthy seeing as how she murdered an innocent Giffen character.
    Yeah, my thoughts on who should be worthy are clearly different than the writers, since I was expecting Doom to be able to pick up Mjolnir a few months back. So no one in this fight is worthy to hold Mjolnir except Thor, then?

    Adaemus1sf on
  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    On what possible basis could Doom be worthy? You aren't worthy just because you're a badass.


    Simply having killed someone wouldn't wreck it. I mean, the concept of not killing bad guys ever is something that only exists in the modern comic universe, Asgard is full of warriors with high body counts.

    Scooter on
  • Adaemus1sfAdaemus1sf Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Scooter wrote:
    On what possible basis could Doom be worthy? You aren't worthy just because you're a badass.


    Simply having killed someone wouldn't wreck it. I mean, the concept of not killing bad guys ever is something that only exists in the modern comic universe, Asgard is full of warriors with high body counts.
    I was under the impression that being able to kill someone to save lots of other lives would be an important skill for a warrior god, so I figured Wonder Woman wouldn't be diqualified.
    Doom is dedicated to bettering humanity, in his own way, and has certsinly improved Latveria. He's a warrior king, not terribly different than Thor except for the jealousy of Reed. Even his hubris is not unlike Thor, considering that Odin gave Thor the Don Blake identity to teach him humility. I could see him being worthy, if Thor were closer to his mythological base. The word worthy is awfully vague and allows people to justify anything they want.

    Adaemus1sf on
  • HenslerHensler Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Mai-Kero wrote:
    I'm not sure Wonder Woman would be worthy seeing as how she murdered an innocent Giffen character.

    I read that several times, hoping it would change to say she killed a Gryphon character.

    [spoiler:a557b0b27e]It never did [/spoiler:a557b0b27e]

    *weeps for the Flash*

    Hensler on
  • Spectre-xSpectre-x Rating: AWESOME YESRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Crayon wrote:
    Ummm...Thor...has magic. Superman...you know...sucks against it.

    Thor honestly seems to be much much stronger than Wonder Woman in almost every single aspect, and Thor isn't vulnerable to Magic.

    Except that magic is not like kryptonite to Superman and Thor has very few attacks that actually do magical damage.

    Spectre-x on
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    I still maintain that worthiness has a lot to do with need.

    When has anyone ever picked up the hammer without circumstances demanding power beyond what he or she herself could manage?

    Even in Marvel VS DC, Wonder Woman was fighting for the sake of her own universe's survival. Assuming that isn't at stake here (and that the story is still relevant), she won't be able to wield it again.

    robosagogo on
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