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Shadow of Mordor: Like Hatoful Boyfriend, but with Orcs. Bright Lord DLC out now!

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  • TransporterTransporter Registered User regular
    edited March 2017
    Oh man Celebrimbor and THE RANGER! coming into conflict with the Fellowship makes so much sense it hurts.

    Have them dominate the Ringwraiths, "freeing" them(Really just leashing them to a new master). Have them conquer Mordor and banish Sauron(temporary of course)

    Then have them capture Gollum and learn of the existence of the One Ring in the Shire

    Hell you can even make Sauruman a shady ally to THE RANGER! after Sauron falls.

    Gandalf discovers the ring, Frodo brings it to the council, they inform them of the new Lord of Mordor, maybe even have them reach out saying they wish to destroy the ring as well. Of course no one trusts Celebrimbor because he made the rings, Fellowship decides to go to mount doom, while THE RANGER'S! forces try to take it from them by force/stop a mysterious, "unaffiliated(Totally Saruman's)group of orcs from capturing them.

    I mean it basically writes itself.

    PUT IT IN MY VEINS.

    Also the DLC having more playable characters is pretty hype.

    Transporter on
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Celebrimbror knows about the existence of the One Ring! That's like, his entire backstory outside of the game. He made the Elven Rings of Power. That's why he knows how to make rings of power at all. He was betrayed by Sauron with the One Ring and then disappeared until the game.

    I am in favor of ignoring the books entirely to make good games, though. See: Fighting Sauron on the back of Smaug as the Shire burns around you.

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • KwoaruKwoaru Confident Smirk Flawless Golden PecsRegistered User regular
    Lots of that video was cool but also it made me a little worried I won't like it as much as the first and the combat did definitely look a little rough so I'm glad that little alpha gameplay thing kept popping up

    It'll depend on how much the editing and scripting of what happened actually reflects final gameplay I guess

    Still gonna get it though

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  • DeadfallDeadfall I don't think you realize just how rich he is. In fact, I should put on a monocle.Registered User regular
    Just give me an Orc Warlord simulator and let me lead my army of Orcs across Middle Earth.

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  • FakefauxFakefaux Cóiste Bodhar Driving John McCain to meet some Iraqis who'd very much like to make his acquaintanceRegistered User regular
    edited March 2017
    Celebrimbror knows about the existence of the One Ring! That's like, his entire backstory outside of the game. He made the Elven Rings of Power. That's why he knows how to make rings of power at all. He was betrayed by Sauron with the One Ring and then disappeared until the game.

    I am in favor of ignoring the books entirely to make good games, though. See: Fighting Sauron on the back of Smaug as the Shire burns around you.

    *has a seizure*

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    Fakefaux on
  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    It looks pretty great. A lot of cutscenes though?

    The fact that they'll be different depending on the nemsis system is all I need to know, like if you didn't have an archer buddy it would have been a different cutscene. And given the cutscenes rule, and that there will no doubt be plenty of free form gameplay given the first one, I'm stoked

    Fuck yeah Orc bromances where your buddies save you during boss fights.

    Hope they have more info on any non Orc stuff soon

  • Blake TBlake T Do you have enemies then? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life.Registered User regular
    I really dig where they went with this.

    Having an actual army with a legitimate use is super cool. I loved the game but never finished it as by the end I just felt ultra powered and had no real urge to invest the time to finish the rest of the game.

  • Virgil_Leads_YouVirgil_Leads_You Proud Father House GardenerRegistered User regular
    What's the story here, this go around?
    I did beat the base game, so I know the last line.

    I'm more uncomfortable with the enslavement mechanic, as they give orcs more personality than marauding, xenophobic/hate filled ants.
    Course they hinted at that with orc poet commanders and what not, but generally they still were pro-slaughtering / eating your neighbors.

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  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    So...the story is like canon or non-canon?

    Just saying cause after watching that trailer I'm sure it'll have a LotR fan or two blowing a gasket.

  • Virgil_Leads_YouVirgil_Leads_You Proud Father House GardenerRegistered User regular
    edited March 2017
    Like, it's one thing, if a foreign invading orc sees you, and goes all murder/death/kill, on ya.
    To respond to that by dominating their mind. (ethical question on whether murder or brainwashing is a better self defense to bloodthirsty Orc)

    But it looks like the plot here is, going to these orcs fortress cities and dominating their kings. And mass enslaving warriors to fuel your army in pursuit of this dominance.
    I think I'd be down if they drop any heroism from it. I can play an evil dark lord as a protagonist every once in a while.

    That these dominated orcs can betray you, is a good wrinkle. Implies they still have will

    Virgil_Leads_You on
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  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited March 2017
    Yeah...the whole mind control angle has always been a sticking point for me. But I just try to ignore it as I do all my sick nasty executions.

    Dragkonias on
  • FakefauxFakefaux Cóiste Bodhar Driving John McCain to meet some Iraqis who'd very much like to make his acquaintanceRegistered User regular
    edited March 2017
    The plot seems to be that we've jumped forward some 30-50 years in the timeline of Middle-Earth. Sauron's forces are about to take Minas Ithil and turn it into Minas Morgul. Talion and the wraith of Celebrimbor launch a civil war within Mordor, using the power of their new ring of power to do... something. Also, a balrog awakes in Mordor and starts causing trouble.

    Given the first game, what more do you need? It's all about the orc killing anyway.

    Fakefaux on
  • TransporterTransporter Registered User regular
    Celebrimbror knows about the existence of the One Ring! That's like, his entire backstory outside of the game. He made the Elven Rings of Power. That's why he knows how to make rings of power at all. He was betrayed by Sauron with the One Ring and then disappeared until the game.

    I am in favor of ignoring the books entirely to make good games, though. See: Fighting Sauron on the back of Smaug as the Shire burns around you.

    Sorry, didn
    Like, it's one thing, if a foreign invading orc sees you, and goes all murder/death/kill, on ya.
    To respond to that by dominating their mind. (ethical question on whether murder or brainwashing is a better self defense to bloodthirsty Orc)

    But it looks like the plot here is, going to these orcs fortress cities and dominating their kings. And mass enslaving warriors to fuel your army in pursuit of this dominance.
    I think I'd be down if they drop any heroism from it. I can play an evil dark lord as a protagonist every once in a while.

    That these dominated orcs can betray you, is a good wrinkle. Implies they still have will

    Oh Shadows of Mordor looks like you're officially morally gray as the third power in Mordor.

    Balrog's probably the "main" villian you get funneled to, as a Balrog's the same level if being as Sauron(Sauron was a brains guy, while Balrog's were the muscle).

    The could conveniently end the story by you throwing all of your armies at the Rog's forces, killing it, and the Rog killing you and destroying Celebrimbor and the new Ring of Power in return.

    But I hope they go whole hog fantasy booking with it. They have conveniently bypassed me standard "White male power fantasy" aversion by making Celebrimbor, a character from the books a major player, and making it a partnership(Also the promise of more characters+the badass elf lady skin they released for the lastgame just cause gives confidence in them to not do the thing).

    So they can do whatever they want as far as I'm concerned. The setup is good enough, I'm game.

  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    edited March 2017
    man its all people for the ethical treatment of orcs up in here

    I am looking forward to orc bromances though. I love that probably the best thing about SOM, the intros to nemesis characters and such is basically being wound up 10 notches with assist kills and whatnot.

    I do hope theres more human and elf stuff, there were glimpses in the trailer, but as much as a fucking adore the orc world of characters and designs this series has, it really needs a reminder that the whole world isnt just orcs

    Prohass on
  • FakefauxFakefaux Cóiste Bodhar Driving John McCain to meet some Iraqis who'd very much like to make his acquaintanceRegistered User regular
    It would make a lot of sense if Sauron called up his human forces to help put down the orc rebellion. That'd give you a bunch of new cultures and human characters to play around with.

  • OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
    Fakefaux wrote: »
    It would make a lot of sense if Sauron called up his human forces to help put down the orc rebellion. That'd give you a bunch of new cultures and human characters to play around with.

    But then you would have to acknowledge Tolkien's racism

    And no one wants to do that

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  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    Celebrimbor is pretty explicitly evil in these games, especially the dlc. You're not supposed to think the branding is an ok thing to do.

  • FakefauxFakefaux Cóiste Bodhar Driving John McCain to meet some Iraqis who'd very much like to make his acquaintanceRegistered User regular
    edited March 2017
    Olivaw wrote: »
    Fakefaux wrote: »
    It would make a lot of sense if Sauron called up his human forces to help put down the orc rebellion. That'd give you a bunch of new cultures and human characters to play around with.

    But then you would have to acknowledge Tolkien's racism

    And no one wants to do that

    Well, I mean, the same applies to the orcs. In many ways the orcs are worse, more fully embodying the "savage barbarians besieging Christendom" tropes Tolkien was drawing on from medieval writing. The orcs of LotR have a lot in common with the hordes of weak, easily killed Saracens from the Lay of Roland. Tolkien, at least, acknowledged Sauron's human servants as people who weren't truly evil, but as slaves forced into combat or dupes lied to about why they were fighting. The orcs, in contrast, are explicitly monster-people who are inherently evil and it's okay to feel good about brutally exterminating them without mercy. Which is worse, ins this context?

    And, besides, if the game is already throwing out half of Tolkien's ideas, it's not like it couldn't modify this stuff. Maybe the Haradrim and the Easterlings get called in to fight for Sauron, then some of them say "fuck this" and desert, then you've got a faction of independent humans who don't serve the demon-god wandering around the map. There's room to develop them more fully as characters than Tolkien did.

    Fakefaux on
  • OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
    Fakefaux wrote: »
    Olivaw wrote: »
    Fakefaux wrote: »
    It would make a lot of sense if Sauron called up his human forces to help put down the orc rebellion. That'd give you a bunch of new cultures and human characters to play around with.

    But then you would have to acknowledge Tolkien's racism

    And no one wants to do that

    Well, I mean, the same applies to the orcs. In many ways the orcs are worse, more fully embodying the "Savage barbarians besieging Christendom" tropes Tolkien was drawing on from medieval writing. The orcs of LotR have a lot in common with the hordes of weak, easily killed Saracens from the Lay of Roland. Tolkien, at least, acknowledged Sauron's human servants a people who weren't truly evil, but as slaves forced into combat by force or dupes lied to about why they were fighting. The orcs, in contrast, are explicitly monster-people who are inherently evil and it's okay to feel good about brutally exterminating them without mercy. Which is worse, ins this context?

    And, besides, if the game is already throwing out half of Tolkien's ideas, it's not like it couldn't modify this stuff. Maybe thae Haradrim and the Easterlings get called in to fight for Sauron, then some of them say "fuck this" and desert, then you've got a faction of independent humans who don't serve the demon-god wandering around the map. There's room to develop them more fully as characters than Tolkien did.

    I would say that the fake fantasy orcs are inherently less worse through implication than the Actual Literal Humans With Dark Skin who also serve the Dark Lord, especially given how orcs have become a fantasy staple

    Again

    No one wants to acknowledge Tolkien's racism, even with condemnation

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  • FakefauxFakefaux Cóiste Bodhar Driving John McCain to meet some Iraqis who'd very much like to make his acquaintanceRegistered User regular
    Olivaw wrote: »
    Fakefaux wrote: »
    Olivaw wrote: »
    Fakefaux wrote: »
    It would make a lot of sense if Sauron called up his human forces to help put down the orc rebellion. That'd give you a bunch of new cultures and human characters to play around with.

    But then you would have to acknowledge Tolkien's racism

    And no one wants to do that

    Well, I mean, the same applies to the orcs. In many ways the orcs are worse, more fully embodying the "Savage barbarians besieging Christendom" tropes Tolkien was drawing on from medieval writing. The orcs of LotR have a lot in common with the hordes of weak, easily killed Saracens from the Lay of Roland. Tolkien, at least, acknowledged Sauron's human servants a people who weren't truly evil, but as slaves forced into combat by force or dupes lied to about why they were fighting. The orcs, in contrast, are explicitly monster-people who are inherently evil and it's okay to feel good about brutally exterminating them without mercy. Which is worse, ins this context?

    And, besides, if the game is already throwing out half of Tolkien's ideas, it's not like it couldn't modify this stuff. Maybe thae Haradrim and the Easterlings get called in to fight for Sauron, then some of them say "fuck this" and desert, then you've got a faction of independent humans who don't serve the demon-god wandering around the map. There's room to develop them more fully as characters than Tolkien did.

    I would say that the fake fantasy orcs are inherently less worse through implication than the Actual Literal Humans With Dark Skin who also serve the Dark Lord, especially given how orcs have become a fantasy staple

    Again

    No one wants to acknowledge Tolkien's racism, even with condemnation

    Of course, the only way that works is by actively running away from Tolkien's descriptions of orcs as fast as fucking possible. Hideous monsters with skin the color and texture of charred wood, you say? Okay, I guess that sounds suitably inhuman but
    ...they are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes; in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types

    WHOOPS guess we better make these guys look like green-skinned monsters not any of that shit you just said holy shit

  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    edited March 2017
    lots of great info in this interview

    http://www.gamespot.com/articles/shadow-of-wars-dev-on-new-nemesis-system-movie-con/1100-6448595/

    an orc named "dwarf hater" with torn off dwarf beards on him

    man im gonna love this game

    Prohass on
  • VeldrinVeldrin Sham bam bamina Registered User regular
    edited March 2017
    Tube wrote: »
    Celebrimbor is pretty explicitly evil in these games, especially the dlc. You're not supposed to think the branding is an ok thing to do.

    Yeah, doesn't Talion even initially recoil from the concept in disgust when it's introduced?

    Veldrin on
  • EtchwartsEtchwarts Eyes Up Registered User regular
    Veldrin wrote: »
    Tube wrote: »
    Celebrimbor is pretty explicitly evil in these games, especially the dlc. You're not supposed to think the branding is an ok thing to do.

    Yeah, doesn't Talion even initially recoil from the concept in disgust when it's introduced?

    Yes, but if I remember correctly it's more of a "Ugh I hate orcs" thing than a "this is something a villain would go" thing

  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    edited March 2017
    Talion is definitely in a position where his orc sympathies are low when hes introduced to the power, but Im hoping they do something with the dynamic. Because while Talion might be posessing orcs, the more interesting angle for the narrative is Celibrimbor taking advantage of Talion. I hope that as Talion forges new relationships, and gets some distance between his families death, he'll start resisting Celibrimbor more and there will be some tension developing as his revenge lust subsides and other concerns arise (like potentially new friendships and relationships).

    Prohass on
  • TransporterTransporter Registered User regular
    I do have one, painfully obvious question, since I haven't finish Shadows of Mordor.

    Talion's DEAD, right? Like, the only reason he exists as a person is because Celebrimbor's Elven ghost is essentially possessing him and they have sort of a symbiotic relationship right?

    The reason I ask is because, if Talion splits from Celebrimbor, doesn't he just go back to being dead?

  • Virgil_Leads_YouVirgil_Leads_You Proud Father House GardenerRegistered User regular
    Ain't the worst outcome for a revenge ghost

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  • NorgothNorgoth cardiffRegistered User regular
    I do have one, painfully obvious question, since I haven't finish Shadows of Mordor.

    Talion's DEAD, right? Like, the only reason he exists as a person is because Celebrimbor's Elven ghost is essentially possessing him and they have sort of a symbiotic relationship right?

    The reason I ask is because, if Talion splits from Celebrimbor, doesn't he just go back to being dead?

    Yes. Celebrimbor is reanimating him to use his as a meat puppet effectively. Seeing as how Celebrimbor can step out of your body for short periods I'm guessing it's got fairly limited range but they clearly don't need to be DBZ style fused all the time.

    The big thing is that Celebrimbor is doing this by choice. He can release the ranger any time he wants to.

  • Virgil_Leads_YouVirgil_Leads_You Proud Father House GardenerRegistered User regular
    Prohass wrote: »
    man its all people for the ethical treatment of orcs up in here

    For me it's a change in opinion based on a change in Orc mechanics. I felt pretty good about Talion being a survivor against essentially hungry violent monsters in the last game.
    I had a silly post in this thread about 2 years ago, in disagreement with someone viewing Talion as a terrorist.

    It's interesting to me how my opinion changes as they humanize these orcs, and give them the capability of human/orc friendship or at the least partnership.
    Probably won't play the game in the same way either, if they really develop the orcs as something different.

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  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    Celebrimbor is pretty explicitly evil in these games, especially the dlc. You're not supposed to think the branding is an ok thing to do.

    eh, they're orcs

  • KwoaruKwoaru Confident Smirk Flawless Golden PecsRegistered User regular
    edited March 2017
    Jars wrote: »
    Tube wrote: »
    Celebrimbor is pretty explicitly evil in these games, especially the dlc. You're not supposed to think the branding is an ok thing to do.

    eh, they're orcs

    Basically just fleshy green robots and you're hacking their programming a little

    Kwoaru on
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  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited March 2017
    Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure Tolkien's orcs are completely and utterly without any redeeming qualities whatsoever. As such it seems improbable that a vidjagame is gonna go out of its way to explore moral ambiguities involved in chopping their heads off or mind controlling them.

    Edit: although exercising power over them is clearly a corrupting influence. It'll be interesting if it becomes advantageous for the duo to use the same tactics on non-orcs and if that's the line that draws a wedge between Talion and Celembrimbor.

    august on
  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    even if it does I'm still going to chop their heads off at every possible opportunity

  • FakefauxFakefaux Cóiste Bodhar Driving John McCain to meet some Iraqis who'd very much like to make his acquaintanceRegistered User regular
    edited March 2017
    august wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure Tolkien's orcs are completely and utterly without any redeeming qualities whatsoever. As such it seems improbable that a vidjagame is gonna go out of its way to explore moral ambiguities involved in chopping their heads off or mind controlling them.

    Edit: although exercising power over them is clearly a corrupting influence. It'll be interesting if it becomes advantageous for the duo to use the same tactics on non-orcs and if that's the kind that draws a wedge between Talion and Celembrimbor.

    You're correct. Tolkien seems to have seen orcs as more like lesser demons than flesh demi-humans. They were evil personified, embodying many of the worst aspects of human nature. By making them fleshy beings that live and reproduce and have culture like humans, as opposed to making them purely spirit-beings like balrogs or something, Tolkien raised some Unfortunate Implications. He was aware of the issue and struggled with it, but died before he could resolve it to his liking.

    I hardly expect a video game to try and resolve that thorny issue when he could not.

    Fakefaux on
  • MuddypawsMuddypaws Lactodorum, UKRegistered User regular
    There's a rather touching conversation between two orc captains where they reminisce about the good old days when they and a few mates buggered off into the wilds, beholden to no Big Boss, and how they'd like to do the same once the war is over.

  • FakefauxFakefaux Cóiste Bodhar Driving John McCain to meet some Iraqis who'd very much like to make his acquaintanceRegistered User regular
    Muddypaws wrote: »
    There's a rather touching conversation between two orc captains where they reminisce about the good old days when they and a few mates buggered off into the wilds, beholden to no Big Boss, and how they'd like to do the same once the war is over.

    They also talk about how "the good old days" consisted of plundering and raiding, and that they'd like to get back to doing that independently, instead of under orders. I personally never took that conversation as "oh, look, orcs aren't evil at heart" but rather "oh, look, the orcs are disloyal to their masters and wish they could rape and pillage more freely."

  • KwoaruKwoaru Confident Smirk Flawless Golden PecsRegistered User regular
    edited March 2017
    Are there lady orcs or do orcs just like spring out of the ground?

    Kwoaru on
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  • ChincymcchillaChincymcchilla Registered User regular
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    Are there lady orcs or do orcs just like spring out of the ground?

    The uruk literally actually come out if of the ground

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    "Nothing is evil in the beginning. Not even Sauron was so. Except Orcs. Just...just fuck em."

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • KwoaruKwoaru Confident Smirk Flawless Golden PecsRegistered User regular
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    Are there lady orcs or do orcs just like spring out of the ground?

    The uruk literally actually come out if of the ground

    Yeah so are uruk like especially carefully cultivated turnips and the rest are just untended or are the uruk the exceptions

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  • FakefauxFakefaux Cóiste Bodhar Driving John McCain to meet some Iraqis who'd very much like to make his acquaintanceRegistered User regular
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    Are there lady orcs or do orcs just like spring out of the ground?

    Tolkien was notably mum on the topic, other than saying they breed "in the fashion of the other children of Iluvatar" IE the other children of god, IE humans and elves. So that suggests there are lady orcs. They just don't feature into the narrative, since we rarely ever visit orc family homes, just their military encampments.

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