"Nothing is evil in the beginning. Not even Sauron was so. Except Orcs. Just...just fuck em."
This was the other part of the orc issue for Tolkien. In his early stories (pre LotR) he indicated that the dark powers made them from whole cloth; there's a line about them being created out of puddles of slime and mud, for example, which is probably where the movies got the idea for orcs being born out of the ground.But as a devout Christian, Tolkien also believed that nothing could be created purely evil, only corrupted to it. So he revised the origins, toying with orcs being created from transformed elves or humans, but he never settled on a definitive answer.
Of all his worldbuilding inconsistencies, the nature of orcs, on multiple fronts, seems to have bothered him the most.
The Uruk cloning pits or whatever were an invention of the films
Also Tolkien does say in one of his letters that orcs, deep down, hate Sauron most of all, but the fear of him is stronger
So that implies independent thought, at least, which should in turn imply they are not a monolith of murder and pillage
The problem is, despite existing independently of Sauron or Morgoth for thousands of years at different points in the timeline, orcs are still all about the murdering and the pillaging every time we see them. And there are multiple references to orc raids during those periods.
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KwoaruConfident SmirkFlawless Golden PecsRegistered Userregular
No I think I prefer to think of orcs as fantasy saibamen, and Uruk are just more carefully cultivated
Which is why the first 5 hours of mordor two should be a farming sim as you grow your army
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Tolkien was a little wishy washy about things not actually being evil from the start.
i.e. spiders
They basically came from the darkness, evil and misbegotten from the get go.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
The Uruk cloning pits or whatever were an invention of the films
Also Tolkien does say in one of his letters that orcs, deep down, hate Sauron most of all, but the fear of him is stronger
So that implies independent thought, at least, which should in turn imply they are not a monolith of murder and pillage
The problem is, despite existing independently of Sauron or Morgoth for thousands of years at different points in the timeline, orcs are still all about the murdering and the pillaging every time we see them. And there are multiple references to orc raids during those periods.
You're absolutely right
Hmm
I wonder if you took a newborn orc and raised him with humans or elves, what you would get
LuvTheMonkeyHigh Sierra SerenadeRegistered Userregular
I've churned butter once or twice
Living in an Uruk paradise
It's hard work and sacrifice
Living in an Uruk paradise
We sell quilts at discount price
Living in an Uruk paradise
The Uruk cloning pits or whatever were an invention of the films
Also Tolkien does say in one of his letters that orcs, deep down, hate Sauron most of all, but the fear of him is stronger
So that implies independent thought, at least, which should in turn imply they are not a monolith of murder and pillage
The problem is, despite existing independently of Sauron or Morgoth for thousands of years at different points in the timeline, orcs are still all about the murdering and the pillaging every time we see them. And there are multiple references to orc raids during those periods.
You're absolutely right
Hmm
I wonder if you took a newborn orc and raised him with humans or elves, what you would get
You'd think someone would have tried that at some point during those several thousand years, but no.
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KwoaruConfident SmirkFlawless Golden PecsRegistered Userregular
edited March 2017
Stealing orc children: better or worse than mind controlling adult orc soldiers?
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FakefauxCóiste BodharDriving John McCain to meet some Iraqis who'd very much like to make his acquaintanceRegistered Userregular
The thing is, the answer to the orc conundrum is seemingly obvious. They were bred as weapons, forced by inhuman powers to murder and destroy, kept in slavery. Tolkien makes a point that orc tribes are disunited and hostile to one another, almost never speaking the same language, having to use Westron as a lingua franca. They're atomized. And it makes sense, with the way they've been treated, that they've never been able to form a truly functioning society. They don't know how, or they haven't been allowed to.
I suspect all of that occurred to Tolkien. He was no dummy. But if that was the answer, it then retroactively made all of his brave and noble heroes into monsters. Legolas and Gimli playing their kill count game, the Rohirrim burning orcs and sticking their heads on spears, they're all killing what is effectively an enslaved population of child-soldiers. Tolkien had been operating under the idea of orcs as personified human evils, demons, but when he finally came to grips with the idea that you can't have a personification of human evils as a physical race of beings without causing issues, he had already built a great deal of his story around it. To humanize the orcs would undermine his entire legendarium, his life's work.
No wonder he was close lipped about it.
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StraightziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered Userregular
Stealing orc children: better or worse than mind controlling adult orc soldiers?
I mean, it's for their own good, right? We're not talking about stealing babies just because, we're talking about taking them away from a harmful upbringing to raise into better people. I don't see what could be wrong about that.
Stealing orc children: better or worse than mind controlling adult orc soldiers?
I mean, it's for their own good, right? We're not talking about stealing babies just because, we're talking about taking them away from a harmful upbringing to raise into better people. I don't see what could be wrong about that.
Yeah, they just need to be reeducated from their savage nature.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
So on a different topic.
Who else listened to a bunch of Blind Guardian - Nightfall in Middle-Earth during their younger years?
Stealing orc children: better or worse than mind controlling adult orc soldiers?
I mean, it's for their own good, right? We're not talking about stealing babies just because, we're talking about taking them away from a harmful upbringing to raise into better people. I don't see what could be wrong about that.
Yeah pretty much
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
The words of a banished king "I swear revenge"
Filled with anger aflamed our hearts
Full of hate full of pride
We screamed for revenge
Niiiiiiightfaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallll
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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FakefauxCóiste BodharDriving John McCain to meet some Iraqis who'd very much like to make his acquaintanceRegistered Userregular
Alright, getting away from orc ethics...
So this game has you build a new ring of power. What, exactly, is that supposed to do?
The Uruk cloning pits or whatever were an invention of the films
Also Tolkien does say in one of his letters that orcs, deep down, hate Sauron most of all, but the fear of him is stronger
So that implies independent thought, at least, which should in turn imply they are not a monolith of murder and pillage
that fits chaotic evil
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GustavFriend of GoatsSomewhere in the OzarksRegistered Userregular
Didn't Tolkien derive the term orc from some kind of Norse zombie? Orcneas if I remember right? I could see that more or less being the issue. Something with which he intended at the start to be utterly mindless evil ala a zombie type situation. But as they developed into more of an actual living creature with culture you get these sort of situations that are harder to square.
Didn't Tolkien derive the term orc from some kind of Norse zombie? Orcneas if I remember right? I could see that more or less being the issue. Something with which he intended at the start to be utterly mindless evil ala a zombie type situation. But as they developed into more of an actual living creature with culture you get these sort of situations that are harder to square.
"Orcneas" was a vague term from Anglo-Saxon. It meant something comparable to "monster" and could be used to mean "ogre" or "giant" or "evil spirit" or "goblin" or what have you. Something of a catchall. It didn't mean any specific type of mythical being.
GustavFriend of GoatsSomewhere in the OzarksRegistered Userregular
Ah gotcha. I had some Tolkien etymology book (look at mister cool here) that suggested one of its origins as a zombie type creature. Though my memory might definitely be faulty here.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
So this game has you build a new ring of power. What, exactly, is that supposed to do?
Same as the elven rings of power? Be neat and be a power boost.
Well, the problem there is the elven rings of power were specifically tools of defense and healing, not weapons. So you probably wouldn't want to make one of those in this instance.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
The best defense is a good offense!
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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FakefauxCóiste BodharDriving John McCain to meet some Iraqis who'd very much like to make his acquaintanceRegistered Userregular
I do have one, painfully obvious question, since I haven't finish Shadows of Mordor.
Talion's DEAD, right? Like, the only reason he exists as a person is because Celebrimbor's Elven ghost is essentially possessing him and they have sort of a symbiotic relationship right?
The reason I ask is because, if Talion splits from Celebrimbor, doesn't he just go back to being dead?
Yes. Celebrimbor leaves him at one point and his throat wound immediately reopens and he starts to bleed out
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Okay, I love that they are leaning waaaay into the ridiculousness.
Im playing the Bright Lord DLC as somehow I never got around to it.
I forgot how little health you have in this game. Getting annoyed at being 2 shotted by every captain.
Also those spear-throwing orcs can eat a dick.
But its super fun to meet a warchief and his captains, activate the one ring and instantly brand their entire entourage of orcs and let them hack the captains apart.
Told the girlfriend she should try Mordor. So this morning she boots it up and gets to where it first let's you roam the world. You know, like eight minutes in. She getting a hang of the controls and picks a fight with some orcs.
Three of them are captains. She dies relatively quickly. So she respawns and tries to find some easier prey. Gets surprised by a captain. During the fight two more walk up. She finally kills the first one and runs the fuck away from the other two. I dunno if she'll stick with it but those two immediate engagements were worth it.
Like, didn't Melkor nab a whole bunch of them at some point early on in history and corrupt them?
Or is my brain just making that up
That's one version
Tolkien himself never even settled on one
It's the version most popularized, though, because in LotR Treebeard mentions that orcs were made in "mockery of elves." Which could mean orcs were made from elf stock or just made from something else in imitation of elves. It's a vague statement.
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This was the other part of the orc issue for Tolkien. In his early stories (pre LotR) he indicated that the dark powers made them from whole cloth; there's a line about them being created out of puddles of slime and mud, for example, which is probably where the movies got the idea for orcs being born out of the ground.But as a devout Christian, Tolkien also believed that nothing could be created purely evil, only corrupted to it. So he revised the origins, toying with orcs being created from transformed elves or humans, but he never settled on a definitive answer.
Of all his worldbuilding inconsistencies, the nature of orcs, on multiple fronts, seems to have bothered him the most.
Also Tolkien does say in one of his letters that orcs, deep down, hate Sauron most of all, but the fear of him is stronger
So that implies independent thought, at least, which should in turn imply they are not a monolith of murder and pillage
The problem is, despite existing independently of Sauron or Morgoth for thousands of years at different points in the timeline, orcs are still all about the murdering and the pillaging every time we see them. And there are multiple references to orc raids during those periods.
Which is why the first 5 hours of mordor two should be a farming sim as you grow your army
i.e. spiders
They basically came from the darkness, evil and misbegotten from the get go.
You're absolutely right
Hmm
I wonder if you took a newborn orc and raised him with humans or elves, what you would get
We've been spending most our lives living in an Uruk's paradise
Living in an Uruk paradise
It's hard work and sacrifice
Living in an Uruk paradise
We sell quilts at discount price
Living in an Uruk paradise
You'd think someone would have tried that at some point during those several thousand years, but no.
I suspect all of that occurred to Tolkien. He was no dummy. But if that was the answer, it then retroactively made all of his brave and noble heroes into monsters. Legolas and Gimli playing their kill count game, the Rohirrim burning orcs and sticking their heads on spears, they're all killing what is effectively an enslaved population of child-soldiers. Tolkien had been operating under the idea of orcs as personified human evils, demons, but when he finally came to grips with the idea that you can't have a personification of human evils as a physical race of beings without causing issues, he had already built a great deal of his story around it. To humanize the orcs would undermine his entire legendarium, his life's work.
No wonder he was close lipped about it.
I mean, it's for their own good, right? We're not talking about stealing babies just because, we're talking about taking them away from a harmful upbringing to raise into better people. I don't see what could be wrong about that.
Yeah, they just need to be reeducated from their savage nature.
Who else listened to a bunch of Blind Guardian - Nightfall in Middle-Earth during their younger years?
"I swear revenge"
Filled with anger aflamed our hearts
Full of hate full of pride
We screamed for revenge
Niiiiiiightfaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallll
So this game has you build a new ring of power. What, exactly, is that supposed to do?
that fits chaotic evil
presumably rule them all, find them, bring them all, and in the darkness bind them
"Orcneas" was a vague term from Anglo-Saxon. It meant something comparable to "monster" and could be used to mean "ogre" or "giant" or "evil spirit" or "goblin" or what have you. Something of a catchall. It didn't mean any specific type of mythical being.
Shoot lasers
Same as the elven rings of power? Be neat and be a power boost.
Where I don't see him
Well, the problem there is the elven rings of power were specifically tools of defense and healing, not weapons. So you probably wouldn't want to make one of those in this instance.
If Talion wants to grow some really nice flowers, I think one of the elf rings would be super useful.
Listen, you aren't gunna get at me. I gotta go repaint my Lord of the Rings miniatures.
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Yes. Celebrimbor leaves him at one point and his throat wound immediately reopens and he starts to bleed out
I forgot how little health you have in this game. Getting annoyed at being 2 shotted by every captain.
Also those spear-throwing orcs can eat a dick.
But its super fun to meet a warchief and his captains, activate the one ring and instantly brand their entire entourage of orcs and let them hack the captains apart.
Three of them are captains. She dies relatively quickly. So she respawns and tries to find some easier prey. Gets surprised by a captain. During the fight two more walk up. She finally kills the first one and runs the fuck away from the other two. I dunno if she'll stick with it but those two immediate engagements were worth it.
And of course that's the one she killed
Yes, but did she kill him, or just "kill" him?
Like, didn't Melkor nab a whole bunch of them at some point early on in history and corrupt them?
Or is my brain just making that up
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Nah just killed him. She got another guy down and he's already come back.
Ran into the same three again and fled again. They talked mad shit while she hid in a bush. Was very displeased about the smacktalk.
That's one version
Tolkien himself never even settled on one
It's the version most popularized, though, because in LotR Treebeard mentions that orcs were made in "mockery of elves." Which could mean orcs were made from elf stock or just made from something else in imitation of elves. It's a vague statement.