All of the critical complaints I've seen - and I've only been reading critics that I like, which means they're hardly died-in-the-wool opponents of genre flicks - have all complained about pretty much exactly the same faillings, and have argued it's just fucking boring.
Sorry, but arguing that they're just against it because critics want to get even with Marvel or something is kind of bog standard fanboyism.
You can be a legit fan of the star wars prequels and enjoy them, but that doesn't mean they were panned just because the critics are out to hurt the thing you like.
All of the critical complaints I've seen - and I've only been reading critics that I like, which means they're hardly died-in-the-wool opponents of genre flicks - have all complained about pretty much exactly the same faillings, and have argued it's just fucking boring.
Sorry, but arguing that they're just against it because critics want to get even with Marvel or something is kind of bog standard fanboyism.
You can be a legit fan of the star wars prequels and enjoy them, but that doesn't mean they were panned just because the critics are out to hurt the thing you like.
Here's the thing, though, this is bad reviewing. These critics are substituting personal opinions for critical analysis. Boring is an emotional response to a subject matter, not an objective idea that can be measured for quality. I tend to find most TV/Movies that are critically acclaimed to be boring. Does that mean that they are bad? Nope. It just means that what I'm looking for in visual entertainment is not met by them. It does not have anything to do with the actual quality of the production.
All of the critical complaints I've seen - and I've only been reading critics that I like, which means they're hardly died-in-the-wool opponents of genre flicks - have all complained about pretty much exactly the same faillings, and have argued it's just fucking boring.
Sorry, but arguing that they're just against it because critics want to get even with Marvel or something is kind of bog standard fanboyism.
You can be a legit fan of the star wars prequels and enjoy them, but that doesn't mean they were panned just because the critics are out to hurt the thing you like.
Er, who said the bolded?
Ninjeff did just last page, and he wasn't the first
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
All of the critical complaints I've seen - and I've only been reading critics that I like, which means they're hardly died-in-the-wool opponents of genre flicks - have all complained about pretty much exactly the same faillings, and have argued it's just fucking boring.
Sorry, but arguing that they're just against it because critics want to get even with Marvel or something is kind of bog standard fanboyism.
You can be a legit fan of the star wars prequels and enjoy them, but that doesn't mean they were panned just because the critics are out to hurt the thing you like.
Er, who said the bolded?
Ninjeff did just last page, and he wasn't the first
He said people wanted to like on Marvel for finally having a "failure". That's not saying anything specific to Marvel but rather people's skepticism that a company can routinely push out quality product after another.
I know I've been partly guilty of this before. Early on in the MCU's movies I was extremely skeptical that Thor, Captain America, and later Ant Man could be successful at all and said so. Not because I had some ax to grind with Marvel, I just didn't think those properties could be made successfully by the company. Despite the fact that they were demonstrating a clear ability to do so with unlikely characters.
Here's the thing, though, this is bad reviewing. These critics are substituting personal opinions for critical analysis. Boring is an emotional response to a subject matter, not an objective idea that can be measured for quality. I tend to find most TV/Movies that are critically acclaimed to be boring. Does that mean that they are bad? Nope. It just means that what I'm looking for in visual entertainment is not met by them. It does not have anything to do with the actual quality of the production.
Boring is actually the worst thing a movie or tv can get as reaction, it shows that the viewers were never emotionally engaged. Every critic's job is to make their personal opinions heard, this is art not a science.
The damning thing here is that not only are we getting bad marks from practically everyone, but they have similar complaints. They're the pigeon in the coal mine for the regular audience, and while sometimes critics can be wrong or I disagree with them any time patterns like this emerge is a big reason why people stay away from shows like this.
We won't know for absolutely sure until it's launched, but critics pave the way for how something will be perceived. That's why they're important for studios to get them on board asap, and when movies refuse to show their movies to critics it's a huge red flag.
It's not like we haven't seen similar patterns from critics before with Marvel's Netflix series, what's changed is that it's usually a thumbs up. DD S1 got amazing results from critics when it launched, did you think that was based on opinion over analysis too?
All of the critical complaints I've seen - and I've only been reading critics that I like, which means they're hardly died-in-the-wool opponents of genre flicks - have all complained about pretty much exactly the same faillings, and have argued it's just fucking boring.
Sorry, but arguing that they're just against it because critics want to get even with Marvel or something is kind of bog standard fanboyism.
You can be a legit fan of the star wars prequels and enjoy them, but that doesn't mean they were panned just because the critics are out to hurt the thing you like.
I agree with your point, but the prequels were generally well-reviewed:
TPM 55%
AOTC 65%
ROTS 79%
Yes, it's Rotten Tomatoes. But those aren't horrible.
I do think it's possible that critics are just more prone to be tired of the marvel TV formula; on the other hand I also think it's possible this is Luke Cage without as much going for it visually/stylistically (which is too bad because that really ought to be one of its strengths, but it certainly doesn't come through in the trailers.)
Can you expand on that?
IMO it means that we are reaching a level of Marvel saturation where expectations are higher and criticisms are harsher.
The crux of that argument only works if all the critics are wrong about Iron Fist and that the show is at the same level of quality of the other shows. This also ignores that the movies are unaffected.
I'm saying that shows like How to Get Away with Murder isnt expected to deep dive on racial prejudice and institutional racism in crime, and Blue Bloods isnt expected to be a treatise on the militarization of police and how it has lead to an increased mentality of us vs them and get home safe at any cost leading to increased civilian casualties.
But Iron Fist* is supposed to tackle cultural appropriation and white washing?
*Kadoken is correct, had a brain fart moment.
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KadokenGiving Ends to my Friends and it Feels StupendousRegistered Userregular
edited March 2017
I know you meant Iron Fist but I wish Luke Cage was as smart as the Wire. It seemed to want to be.
Edit: referring to your first paragraph, not white washing and cultural appropriation
But Iron Fist* is supposed to tackle cultural appropriation and white washing?
I don't think it ever was, but you could expect it not to be completely ignorant on the issue. It's not like this wasn't discussed and criticised with films back in the '90s already, when Kevin Costner showed the world how a white man could be a much better Native American than any Native American could, or ten years ago when Tom Cruise out-Samuraied a whole slew of Japanese.
Added to which (and I've said this before), most reviewers mention the issue of cultural appropriation, but that's not what they say Iron Fist gets wrong first and foremost, so I don't really understand why people seem to latch on to this way more than to what critics actually call out, namely the boring, uncharismatic main character, the shallow, uninteresting and badly written side characters and the action that is middling at best.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
I do think it's possible that critics are just more prone to be tired of the marvel TV formula; on the other hand I also think it's possible this is Luke Cage without as much going for it visually/stylistically (which is too bad because that really ought to be one of its strengths, but it certainly doesn't come through in the trailers.)
Can you expand on that?
IMO it means that we are reaching a level of Marvel saturation where expectations are higher and criticisms are harsher.
The crux of that argument only works if all the critics are wrong about Iron Fist and that the show is at the same level of quality of the other shows. This also ignores that the movies are unaffected.
I'm saying that shows like How to Get Away with Murder isnt expected to deep dive on racial prejudice and institutional racism in crime, and Blue Bloods isnt expected to be a treatise on the militarization of police and how it has lead to an increased mentality of us vs them and get home safe at any cost leading to increased civilian casualties.
But Iron Fist* is supposed to tackle cultural appropriation and white washing?
*Kadoken is correct, had a brain fart moment.
It'd be great if it did, especially after Luke Cage did that masterfully from a black point of view. Is there a reason that topic is off limits for an Iron Fist show? They could have done that with a white Iron Fist, too.
The big reason why this is an important issue with Iron Fist is the series influences from Asian culture.
Here's the thing, though, this is bad reviewing. These critics are substituting personal opinions for critical analysis. Boring is an emotional response to a subject matter, not an objective idea that can be measured for quality. I tend to find most TV/Movies that are critically acclaimed to be boring. Does that mean that they are bad? Nope. It just means that what I'm looking for in visual entertainment is not met by them. It does not have anything to do with the actual quality of the production.
Reviews aren't just about marking the technical aspects of the TV show or movie out of ten. They're about the reviewers emotional response to the content of the art on offer as well. If you are bored by a TV show or a movie that is absolutely relevant to the quality of the thing. How could it not be? And yes, if you're bored out of your mind watching something then you get to say it's bad afterwards. You might be wrong, or have terrible taste, but you get to say a thing is bad if it bored you. Maybe you're right! Maybe you have a short attention span and are pretty dumb. Maybe something else.
Critics are never wholly objective, but they should have better knowledge of the medium than most and be able to communicate their opinions more entertainingly and more interestingly than most.
Critical analysis of art is personal opinion. Ideally, it is informed and intelligent personal opinion.
I do think it's possible that critics are just more prone to be tired of the marvel TV formula; on the other hand I also think it's possible this is Luke Cage without as much going for it visually/stylistically (which is too bad because that really ought to be one of its strengths, but it certainly doesn't come through in the trailers.)
Can you expand on that?
IMO it means that we are reaching a level of Marvel saturation where expectations are higher and criticisms are harsher.
The crux of that argument only works if all the critics are wrong about Iron Fist and that the show is at the same level of quality of the other shows. This also ignores that the movies are unaffected.
I'm saying that shows like How to Get Away with Murder isnt expected to deep dive on racial prejudice and institutional racism in crime, and Blue Bloods isnt expected to be a treatise on the militarization of police and how it has lead to an increased mentality of us vs them and get home safe at any cost leading to increased civilian casualties.
But Iron Fist* is supposed to tackle cultural appropriation and white washing?
*Kadoken is correct, had a brain fart moment.
It'd be great if it did, especially after Luke Cage did that masterfully from a black point of view. Is there a reason that topic is off limits for an Iron Fist show? They could have done that with a white Iron Fist, too.
The big reason why this is an important issue with Iron Fist is the series influences from Asian culture.
Luke Cage covered a lot of things, but it didn't cover those two things.
You didn't think it was odd that Luke was played by a white actor in CGI blackface? Sure, it was done pretty convincingly, especially on a TV budget, but you could still tell, couldn't you?
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
All of the critical complaints I've seen - and I've only been reading critics that I like, which means they're hardly died-in-the-wool opponents of genre flicks - have all complained about pretty much exactly the same faillings, and have argued it's just fucking boring.
Sorry, but arguing that they're just against it because critics want to get even with Marvel or something is kind of bog standard fanboyism.
You can be a legit fan of the star wars prequels and enjoy them, but that doesn't mean they were panned just because the critics are out to hurt the thing you like.
I agree with your point, but the prequels were generally well-reviewed:
TPM 55%
AOTC 65%
ROTS 79%
Yes, it's Rotten Tomatoes. But those aren't horrible.
Those are pretty bad. Except ROTS which is only mediocre.
All of the critical complaints I've seen - and I've only been reading critics that I like, which means they're hardly died-in-the-wool opponents of genre flicks - have all complained about pretty much exactly the same faillings, and have argued it's just fucking boring.
Sorry, but arguing that they're just against it because critics want to get even with Marvel or something is kind of bog standard fanboyism.
You can be a legit fan of the star wars prequels and enjoy them, but that doesn't mean they were panned just because the critics are out to hurt the thing you like.
I agree with your point, but the prequels were generally well-reviewed:
TPM 55%
AOTC 65%
ROTS 79%
Yes, it's Rotten Tomatoes. But those aren't horrible.
Those are pretty bad. Except ROTS which is only mediocre.
Yeah, Rotten Tomatoes ratings mean that percentage of people gave it a better than 50% rating(3/5 stars or 5/10). Not that the average rating of the movie was the fresh rating.
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Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
But Iron Fist* is supposed to tackle cultural appropriation and white washing?
I don't think it ever was, but you could expect it not to be completely ignorant on the issue. It's not like this wasn't discussed and criticised with films back in the '90s already, when Kevin Costner showed the world how a white man could be a much better Native American than any Native American could, or ten years ago when Tom Cruise out-Samuraied a whole slew of Japanese.
Umm. That wasn't the point of either of those movies?
But Iron Fist* is supposed to tackle cultural appropriation and white washing?
I don't think it ever was, but you could expect it not to be completely ignorant on the issue. It's not like this wasn't discussed and criticised with films back in the '90s already, when Kevin Costner showed the world how a white man could be a much better Native American than any Native American could, or ten years ago when Tom Cruise out-Samuraied a whole slew of Japanese.
Umm. That wasn't the point of either of those movies?
Whether it was their point or not, they did it in spades. They also did other things, so it's not like they're both despicable or anything like that, but they definitely have at least some degree of a White Saviour thing going.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
I think Captain Awesome has the chops, he was who I was hoping for when it was announced (he probably did that guest role on Fuller House trying to get in nice with Netflix!), he naturally has optimistic cocky swagger on par with me so by definition it would change the nature of this series a bit to be more smiles and less abloos.
And it would be nice for there to be a Captain in the MCU who doesn't suck.
I didn't know how I could do it but by God I got that jab in!
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Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
But those white people in the movies accomplished fuck all (except for the villains whi won) Tom Cruise or Costner didn't save anyone or were shown to be better than the people. Now it's fucked that we couldn't just follow the characters of kicking bird or katsumoto without having a white focal point character or that cruise and Costner are all over the covers and posters, but they aren't super good examples of white savior tropes.
I do think it's possible that critics are just more prone to be tired of the marvel TV formula; on the other hand I also think it's possible this is Luke Cage without as much going for it visually/stylistically (which is too bad because that really ought to be one of its strengths, but it certainly doesn't come through in the trailers.)
Can you expand on that?
IMO it means that we are reaching a level of Marvel saturation where expectations are higher and criticisms are harsher.
The crux of that argument only works if all the critics are wrong about Iron Fist and that the show is at the same level of quality of the other shows. This also ignores that the movies are unaffected.
I'm saying that shows like How to Get Away with Murder isnt expected to deep dive on racial prejudice and institutional racism in crime, and Blue Bloods isnt expected to be a treatise on the militarization of police and how it has lead to an increased mentality of us vs them and get home safe at any cost leading to increased civilian casualties.
But Iron Fist* is supposed to tackle cultural appropriation and white washing?
*Kadoken is correct, had a brain fart moment.
It'd be great if it did, especially after Luke Cage did that masterfully from a black point of view. Is there a reason that topic is off limits for an Iron Fist show? They could have done that with a white Iron Fist, too.
The big reason why this is an important issue with Iron Fist is the series influences from Asian culture.
Luke Cage covered a lot of things, but it didn't cover those two things.
Can you clarify what you meant by those "two things" are because it reads like you want Luke Cage to cover Asian culture and the Asian pov. Just making sure we're on the same page.
All of the critical complaints I've seen - and I've only been reading critics that I like, which means they're hardly died-in-the-wool opponents of genre flicks - have all complained about pretty much exactly the same faillings, and have argued it's just fucking boring.
Sorry, but arguing that they're just against it because critics want to get even with Marvel or something is kind of bog standard fanboyism.
You can be a legit fan of the star wars prequels and enjoy them, but that doesn't mean they were panned just because the critics are out to hurt the thing you like.
Here's the thing, though, this is bad reviewing. These critics are substituting personal opinions for critical analysis. Boring is an emotional response to a subject matter, not an objective idea that can be measured for quality. I tend to find most TV/Movies that are critically acclaimed to be boring. Does that mean that they are bad? Nope. It just means that what I'm looking for in visual entertainment is not met by them. It does not have anything to do with the actual quality of the production.
When they say it's boring that's not meaningless. What interests or catches people is in fact generally kind of predictable. It's not like we don't at all understand human responses to art and it's just a wild ride of HOW WILL PEOPLE REACT TO THIS WHO COULD POSSIBLY PREDICT?
And so when they say it's boring, they aren't just saying that they felt bored while watching it, but that is lacks things that tend to grab interest and compel audiences.
To assume that all it means when an educated critic says that something is boring is that they felt bored by it for no real reason (or even that they felt bored by it because they hate the source material and want to make sure that they say something mean about it), I think fundamentally misunderstands art criticism in general.
"The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
I do think it's possible that critics are just more prone to be tired of the marvel TV formula; on the other hand I also think it's possible this is Luke Cage without as much going for it visually/stylistically (which is too bad because that really ought to be one of its strengths, but it certainly doesn't come through in the trailers.)
Can you expand on that?
IMO it means that we are reaching a level of Marvel saturation where expectations are higher and criticisms are harsher.
The crux of that argument only works if all the critics are wrong about Iron Fist and that the show is at the same level of quality of the other shows. This also ignores that the movies are unaffected.
I'm saying that shows like How to Get Away with Murder isnt expected to deep dive on racial prejudice and institutional racism in crime, and Blue Bloods isnt expected to be a treatise on the militarization of police and how it has lead to an increased mentality of us vs them and get home safe at any cost leading to increased civilian casualties.
But Iron Fist* is supposed to tackle cultural appropriation and white washing?
*Kadoken is correct, had a brain fart moment.
It'd be great if it did, especially after Luke Cage did that masterfully from a black point of view. Is there a reason that topic is off limits for an Iron Fist show? They could have done that with a white Iron Fist, too.
The big reason why this is an important issue with Iron Fist is the series influences from Asian culture.
Luke Cage covered a lot of things, but it didn't cover those two things.
Can you clarify what you meant by those "two things" are because it reads like you want Luke Cage to cover Asian culture and the Asian pov. Just making sure we're on the same page.
You highlighted this from the previous post
But Iron Fist* is supposed to tackle cultural appropriation and white washing?
and then said
It'd be great if it did, especially after Luke Cage did that masterfully from a black point of view.
Luke Cage didn't touch on Cultural Appropriation or White Washing.
Dancing With Wolves inspired a whole lot of white savior movies, for sure.
But DwW itself is definitely not a white savior movie.
The Last Samurai isn't either, it's got an entirely bizarre viewpoint of Japanese history, but its sin is not white saviorism.
Kana on
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
I do think it's possible that critics are just more prone to be tired of the marvel TV formula; on the other hand I also think it's possible this is Luke Cage without as much going for it visually/stylistically (which is too bad because that really ought to be one of its strengths, but it certainly doesn't come through in the trailers.)
Can you expand on that?
IMO it means that we are reaching a level of Marvel saturation where expectations are higher and criticisms are harsher.
The crux of that argument only works if all the critics are wrong about Iron Fist and that the show is at the same level of quality of the other shows. This also ignores that the movies are unaffected.
I'm saying that shows like How to Get Away with Murder isnt expected to deep dive on racial prejudice and institutional racism in crime, and Blue Bloods isnt expected to be a treatise on the militarization of police and how it has lead to an increased mentality of us vs them and get home safe at any cost leading to increased civilian casualties.
But Iron Fist* is supposed to tackle cultural appropriation and white washing?
*Kadoken is correct, had a brain fart moment.
It'd be great if it did, especially after Luke Cage did that masterfully from a black point of view. Is there a reason that topic is off limits for an Iron Fist show? They could have done that with a white Iron Fist, too.
The big reason why this is an important issue with Iron Fist is the series influences from Asian culture.
Luke Cage covered a lot of things, but it didn't cover those two things.
Can you clarify what you meant by those "two things" are because it reads like you want Luke Cage to cover Asian culture and the Asian pov. Just making sure we're on the same page.
You highlighted this from the previous post
But Iron Fist* is supposed to tackle cultural appropriation and white washing?
and then said
It'd be great if it did, especially after Luke Cage did that masterfully from a black point of view.
Luke Cage didn't touch on Cultural Appropriation or White Washing.
Ok, thanks for clearing that up.
No, I didn't mean Luke Cage should have covered those issues I meant Iron Fist could have given Marvel an Asian/-America centric POV relating to their culture as well issues inherent to Iron Fist like cultural appropriation. This was their last shot in a while to do such a project, the film side was Dr. Strange, but predictably rather then do something truly interesting they avoid those issues altogether and cast white people.
The reviews are all based on the first 6, right? I'm just curious because all the Marvel shows are paced like 12-13 hour movies. Stopping in the middle of say, Jessica Jones, you could give accurate criticism of many things, but not ALL the things. Not to defend Iron Fist ahead of time, but I'm not sure why people are so eager to throw something they haven't seen under the bus, when they will presumably get the chance to see it themselves very shortly without additional cost.
The reviews are all based on the first 6, right? I'm just curious because all the Marvel shows are paced like 12-13 hour movies. Stopping in the middle of say, Jessica Jones, you could give accurate criticism of many things, but not ALL the things. Not to defend Iron Fist ahead of time, but I'm not sure why people are so eager to throw something they haven't seen under the bus, when they will presumably get the chance to see it themselves very shortly without additional cost.
I dunno, JJ is a slight exception, but both DD S2 and Luke Cage kinda jumped the shark a bit in the back half
The reviews are all based on the first 6, right? I'm just curious because all the Marvel shows are paced like 12-13 hour movies. Stopping in the middle of say, Jessica Jones, you could give accurate criticism of many things, but not ALL the things. Not to defend Iron Fist ahead of time, but I'm not sure why people are so eager to throw something they haven't seen under the bus, when they will presumably get the chance to see it themselves very shortly without additional cost.
Because Marvel don't have a history of having strong second acts on Netflix, if Iron Fist does it'll be a first. Plus who the show runner is and the pattern of bad things the critics are in agreement with.
I don't know why we should be giving this show the benefit of a doubt with that much against it. It'd be nice, but we have to be realistic here.
The reviews are all based on the first 6, right? I'm just curious because all the Marvel shows are paced like 12-13 hour movies. Stopping in the middle of say, Jessica Jones, you could give accurate criticism of many things, but not ALL the things. Not to defend Iron Fist ahead of time, but I'm not sure why people are so eager to throw something they haven't seen under the bus, when they will presumably get the chance to see it themselves very shortly without additional cost.
Because Marvel don't have a history of having strong second acts on Netflix, if Iron Fist does it'll be a first. Plus who the show runner is and the pattern of bad things the critics are in agreement with.
I don't know why we should be giving this show the benefit of a doubt with that much against it. It'd be nice, but we have to be realistic here.
I don't and you can't force me!
Being realistic is overrated anyway.
On the issue of casting, Buck says he wasn’t aware of fans’ calls for a nonwhite lead until after Jones was cast—despite early reports that Marvel and Netflix did meet with several Asian American actors, before ultimately deciding to keep Danny white.
“To me it was just about finding the best actor for that,” says Buck. “It wasn’t until after we cast Finn that I became aware that there had been, you know, some controversy over that.”
“I understood where it was coming from,” he says, “but we just weren’t thinking in that way, at least I certainly wasn’t. I was just concentrating on the story and who would be a great actor to play this character.”
Either Buck is lying, or he truly is an idiot who doesn't know how to use Google. I don't know which I'd prefer as the lesser evil.
Glad to hear Marvel/Netflix opening a wide cast with Iron Fist, kudos to them for trying. But why it this read like Buck shut that down so he could have his own white Iron Fist instead? So close, yet so far.
Long before the first trailer for “Iron Fist” arrived, Marvel’s latest Netflix series was mired in controversy. After a series of debates about whether Marvel could or should cast an Asian-American actor in the role of Iron Fist, the studio found their Danny Rand in “Game of Thrones” star Finn Jones. In light of this ongoing debate, “Iron Fist” star Jessica Henwick — herself an Asian-British actress — weighed in on the topic and defended her co-star during an interview with The Daily Beast.
“Look, I am Asian. I am Asian and I am an actor. If anyone understands, it’s me,” she said when asked to address fans’ fears of cultural appropriation. “I have faced it in my career. I’ve been working eight years and I’ve experienced it firsthand, the disparity when it comes to Asian representation — even more than that, Asian misrepresentation.”
“But I also have seen what Finn’s done in this role and I honestly, honestly think that he smashes it out the park,” she concluded.
While I may disagree with her on this issue (though I just started the first ep, and I wasn't impressed with Finn's opening scene) good for her to doing this.
Story is interesting and they are taking a lot longer then I'd though to move past the basic setup which is good because it would feel kinda silly to have that wiped away instantly. Enough hints at some weird shit going on that I wanna see where it goes next.
The action I thought was really good so far.
And I really like Finn Jones' Danny Rand so far. He's interesting. He's kinda naive and a bit child-like but there's a sense of real brewing rage simmering beneath the surface. And it's not just violence since he shoves people around with a sort of happy-go-lucky attitude several times. But you get the impression he's slowly getting very pissed off and that when that happens shit gonna get real or something.
Anyway, so far I'm in.
EDIT PS - The casting bullshit thing has also so far just not seemed at all meaningful to the show as it's presented.
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Er, who said the bolded?
Here's the thing, though, this is bad reviewing. These critics are substituting personal opinions for critical analysis. Boring is an emotional response to a subject matter, not an objective idea that can be measured for quality. I tend to find most TV/Movies that are critically acclaimed to be boring. Does that mean that they are bad? Nope. It just means that what I'm looking for in visual entertainment is not met by them. It does not have anything to do with the actual quality of the production.
Ninjeff did just last page, and he wasn't the first
He said people wanted to like on Marvel for finally having a "failure". That's not saying anything specific to Marvel but rather people's skepticism that a company can routinely push out quality product after another.
I know I've been partly guilty of this before. Early on in the MCU's movies I was extremely skeptical that Thor, Captain America, and later Ant Man could be successful at all and said so. Not because I had some ax to grind with Marvel, I just didn't think those properties could be made successfully by the company. Despite the fact that they were demonstrating a clear ability to do so with unlikely characters.
Boring is actually the worst thing a movie or tv can get as reaction, it shows that the viewers were never emotionally engaged. Every critic's job is to make their personal opinions heard, this is art not a science.
The damning thing here is that not only are we getting bad marks from practically everyone, but they have similar complaints. They're the pigeon in the coal mine for the regular audience, and while sometimes critics can be wrong or I disagree with them any time patterns like this emerge is a big reason why people stay away from shows like this.
We won't know for absolutely sure until it's launched, but critics pave the way for how something will be perceived. That's why they're important for studios to get them on board asap, and when movies refuse to show their movies to critics it's a huge red flag.
It's not like we haven't seen similar patterns from critics before with Marvel's Netflix series, what's changed is that it's usually a thumbs up. DD S1 got amazing results from critics when it launched, did you think that was based on opinion over analysis too?
I agree with your point, but the prequels were generally well-reviewed:
TPM 55%
AOTC 65%
ROTS 79%
Yes, it's Rotten Tomatoes. But those aren't horrible.
I'm saying that shows like How to Get Away with Murder isnt expected to deep dive on racial prejudice and institutional racism in crime, and Blue Bloods isnt expected to be a treatise on the militarization of police and how it has lead to an increased mentality of us vs them and get home safe at any cost leading to increased civilian casualties.
But Iron Fist* is supposed to tackle cultural appropriation and white washing?
*Kadoken is correct, had a brain fart moment.
MWO: Adamski
Edit: referring to your first paragraph, not white washing and cultural appropriation
Added to which (and I've said this before), most reviewers mention the issue of cultural appropriation, but that's not what they say Iron Fist gets wrong first and foremost, so I don't really understand why people seem to latch on to this way more than to what critics actually call out, namely the boring, uncharismatic main character, the shallow, uninteresting and badly written side characters and the action that is middling at best.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
It'd be great if it did, especially after Luke Cage did that masterfully from a black point of view. Is there a reason that topic is off limits for an Iron Fist show? They could have done that with a white Iron Fist, too.
The big reason why this is an important issue with Iron Fist is the series influences from Asian culture.
Reviews aren't just about marking the technical aspects of the TV show or movie out of ten. They're about the reviewers emotional response to the content of the art on offer as well. If you are bored by a TV show or a movie that is absolutely relevant to the quality of the thing. How could it not be? And yes, if you're bored out of your mind watching something then you get to say it's bad afterwards. You might be wrong, or have terrible taste, but you get to say a thing is bad if it bored you. Maybe you're right! Maybe you have a short attention span and are pretty dumb. Maybe something else.
Critics are never wholly objective, but they should have better knowledge of the medium than most and be able to communicate their opinions more entertainingly and more interestingly than most.
Critical analysis of art is personal opinion. Ideally, it is informed and intelligent personal opinion.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
Luke Cage covered a lot of things, but it didn't cover those two things.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
Those are pretty bad. Except ROTS which is only mediocre.
Yeah, Rotten Tomatoes ratings mean that percentage of people gave it a better than 50% rating(3/5 stars or 5/10). Not that the average rating of the movie was the fresh rating.
MWO: Adamski
Umm. That wasn't the point of either of those movies?
Captain Awesome?
Does he have the dramatic chops for it?
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
And it would be nice for there to be a Captain in the MCU who doesn't suck.
Can you clarify what you meant by those "two things" are because it reads like you want Luke Cage to cover Asian culture and the Asian pov. Just making sure we're on the same page.
When they say it's boring that's not meaningless. What interests or catches people is in fact generally kind of predictable. It's not like we don't at all understand human responses to art and it's just a wild ride of HOW WILL PEOPLE REACT TO THIS WHO COULD POSSIBLY PREDICT?
And so when they say it's boring, they aren't just saying that they felt bored while watching it, but that is lacks things that tend to grab interest and compel audiences.
To assume that all it means when an educated critic says that something is boring is that they felt bored by it for no real reason (or even that they felt bored by it because they hate the source material and want to make sure that they say something mean about it), I think fundamentally misunderstands art criticism in general.
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
You highlighted this from the previous post
and then said
Luke Cage didn't touch on Cultural Appropriation or White Washing.
Unreal Engine 4 Developers Community.
I'm working on a cute little video game! Here's a link for you.
It's uninformed opinions make up like 90% of it.
Shit, you're right... my mistake!
Unreal Engine 4 Developers Community.
I'm working on a cute little video game! Here's a link for you.
But DwW itself is definitely not a white savior movie.
The Last Samurai isn't either, it's got an entirely bizarre viewpoint of Japanese history, but its sin is not white saviorism.
Ok, thanks for clearing that up.
No, I didn't mean Luke Cage should have covered those issues I meant Iron Fist could have given Marvel an Asian/-America centric POV relating to their culture as well issues inherent to Iron Fist like cultural appropriation. This was their last shot in a while to do such a project, the film side was Dr. Strange, but predictably rather then do something truly interesting they avoid those issues altogether and cast white people.
I dunno, JJ is a slight exception, but both DD S2 and Luke Cage kinda jumped the shark a bit in the back half
Because Marvel don't have a history of having strong second acts on Netflix, if Iron Fist does it'll be a first. Plus who the show runner is and the pattern of bad things the critics are in agreement with.
I don't know why we should be giving this show the benefit of a doubt with that much against it. It'd be nice, but we have to be realistic here.
I don't and you can't force me!
Being realistic is overrated anyway.
Welp.
Either Buck is lying, or he truly is an idiot who doesn't know how to use Google. I don't know which I'd prefer as the lesser evil.
Glad to hear Marvel/Netflix opening a wide cast with Iron Fist, kudos to them for trying. But why it this read like Buck shut that down so he could have his own white Iron Fist instead? So close, yet so far.
http://www.cbr.com/iron-fist-jessica-henwick-defends-finn-jones/
While I may disagree with her on this issue (though I just started the first ep, and I wasn't impressed with Finn's opening scene) good for her to doing this.
Story is interesting and they are taking a lot longer then I'd though to move past the basic setup which is good because it would feel kinda silly to have that wiped away instantly. Enough hints at some weird shit going on that I wanna see where it goes next.
The action I thought was really good so far.
And I really like Finn Jones' Danny Rand so far. He's interesting. He's kinda naive and a bit child-like but there's a sense of real brewing rage simmering beneath the surface. And it's not just violence since he shoves people around with a sort of happy-go-lucky attitude several times. But you get the impression he's slowly getting very pissed off and that when that happens shit gonna get real or something.
Anyway, so far I'm in.
EDIT PS - The casting bullshit thing has also so far just not seemed at all meaningful to the show as it's presented.
So it's realistically representing the current political climate? Heyooo