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The French Presidential Election

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    ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular
    CptKemzik wrote: »

    I sometimes forget Trudeau is manning the ramparts north of here, I'm glad someone like him is.

    PS he is the real secret lover of Macron, hth

    One of the little things that I love about Trudeau is how he tweets in English and French.

    Imagine if the US President did the same with English and Spanish,

    Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Well, he can barely speak English to begin with...

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    ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    From the Financial Times news editor on the shifting allegiances between rounds 1 & 2.



    The Macron > Le Pen - Le Pen > Macron people must the most special of all. Lots of abstentions, obviously.

    I wonder if the number of absentees would hold if you switch candidates around.

    smCQ5WE.jpg
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    CelloCello Registered User regular
    edited May 2017
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    CptKemzik wrote: »

    I sometimes forget Trudeau is manning the ramparts north of here, I'm glad someone like him is.

    PS he is the real secret lover of Macron, hth

    One of the little things that I love about Trudeau is how he tweets in English and French.

    Imagine if the US President did the same with English and Spanish,

    Do keep in mind it's a requirement for any government office in Canada. We have two official languages - English and French - and being able to speak both languages fluently is a requirement of political leadership. We even do multiple debates in both languages during elections.

    Also, if you screw up in either language, the electorate will be out for blood. Being confidently fluent is key.

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    CptKemzikCptKemzik Registered User regular
    Dat Macron to Macron consistency tho

    Also, why am I not surprised that ~1/2 of Fillion's base are just as reprehensible as he is, also still shaking my head at the Melenchon camp.

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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited May 2017
    Elki wrote: »
    From the Financial Times news editor on the shifting allegiances between rounds 1 & 2.



    The Macron > Le Pen - Le Pen > Macron people must the most special of all. Lots of abstentions, obviously.

    I wonder if the number of absentees would hold if you switch candidates around.

    I guess the interesting thing jumping out to me is the difference between Hamon and Melenchon's voters in round 2. Melenchon's voters are a lot more volatile it seems. At least part of it (I'd suspect a large part personally) is probably because Melenchon is the one with way more voters and so swept up a lot more random groups.

    shryke on
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    SeñorAmorSeñorAmor !!! Registered User regular
    edited May 2017
    Couscous wrote: »
    Trump is probably sad because none of his "look at how much I won by!" brags work against the guy who won nearly every commune in France and by more than 20% more than his opponent.

    OMG if he brings maps of his electoral dominance to his first meeting with Trump...

    SeñorAmor on
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    CptKemzikCptKemzik Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Elki wrote: »
    From the Financial Times news editor on the shifting allegiances between rounds 1 & 2.



    The Macron > Le Pen - Le Pen > Macron people must the most special of all. Lots of abstentions, obviously.

    I wonder if the number of absentees would hold if you switch candidates around.

    I guess the interesting thing jumping out to me is the difference between Hamon and Melenchon's voters in round 2. Melenchon's voters are a lot more volatile it seems. At least part of it (I'd suspect a large part personally) is probably because Melenchon is the one with way more voters and so swept up a lot more random groups.

    I hate making crude references to world politics through a US centric prism, but you could say they are the Bernie primary voters swinging wildly from him to either Gary Johnson or Trump come the general (granted I have no idea how statistically significant that would be compared to the more logical Bernie-> Stein progression which I have too much anecdotal experience with unfortunately).

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    SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited May 2017
    For party politics junkies, with Macron's victory, it'll be interesting to see what becomes of his governments relationship with the ruling Polish PiS, or Franco-Polish relations in general. A week ago, Warsaw slammed Macron for the comparison and perceived alignment with United Russia and Le Pen's candidacy--the Duda government is (arguably very correctly) described extensive in the press as right-wing, and has been often accused of voter intimidating, and its detractors widely claim its waging a war against the free press in Poland (and perhaps even winning). On the other hand, you could call it barely Euroskeptic (if at all) unlike Le Pen, given it's advocacy for commercial ties with western Europe, and it's overwhelmingly pro-NATO (which is a European organization in no small part), so one can see why they'd resent the insinuation.

    Will be interesting to see if they bury that hatchet, or if this becomes a sore point between the incoming government under Macron and the PiS's government. Personally I don't think PiS is going anywhere, even if substantial demonstrations against them in the major cities, so both sides may need to make nice and put that spat aside.

    Synthesis on
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    MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Regarding the Spiegel graphic, I do wonder if it's just a margin of error thing (because it's only a tiny sliver, but it's still there), or if there were actually people who legitimately changed from Macron to LePen, and LePen to Macron. And what their reasons were.

    I mean, flipping between the two before an election, I can understand. But making the effort to vote in Round 1, and then choosing to go in literally the opposite direction in Round 2, would either require something significant to have happened, or some people just like to be contrary/troll.

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    PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    Regarding the Spiegel graphic, I do wonder if it's just a margin of error thing (because it's only a tiny sliver, but it's still there), or if there were actually people who legitimately changed from Macron to LePen, and LePen to Macron. And what their reasons were.

    I mean, flipping between the two before an election, I can understand. But making the effort to vote in Round 1, and then choosing to go in literally the opposite direction in Round 2, would either require something significant to have happened, or some people just like to be contrary/troll.

    Or they pick at random.

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    SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited May 2017
    Or they're "last weeks issue" voters, and it just happened to sway them.

    Kinder than calling them "goldfish memory" voters.

    Synthesis on
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    Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    That's a very elegant chart

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
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    ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited May 2017
    More from the Financial Times. They found that higher income correlated with support for Macron, but the effect disappeared when controlling for education level, which is the driver against Le Pen and FN.


    C_RtWLCW0AAaync.jpg

    C_RtWLHWAAIJfyS.jpg

    Elki on
    smCQ5WE.jpg
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    SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Hey France, thanks for not electing the fascist nationalists.

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    Apparently the top reason given for voting for Macron was "France's image abroad".

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    SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited May 2017
    Considering how Macron--a former socialist--advocated fucking over the working classes in his own charming way, that chart dispersion doesn't surprise me (with and without factoring education).

    NOTE: Not an endorsement of Le Pen, but a criticism of Macron.

    Synthesis on
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    PeccaviPeccavi Registered User regular
    Synthesis wrote: »
    Or they're "last weeks issue" voters, and it just happened to sway them.

    Kinder than calling them "goldfish memory" voters.

    Kinder to the voters or the goldfish?

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    SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    Peccavi wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote: »
    Or they're "last weeks issue" voters, and it just happened to sway them.

    Kinder than calling them "goldfish memory" voters.

    Kinder to the voters or the goldfish?

    Name-calling aside, there's a specific term in English for that kind of issue voter, I just don't recall what it is.

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    PantsBPantsB Fake Thomas Jefferson Registered User regular
    France is the first nation to stay on the same side in our second world war relapse. Good job France.

    The Dutch fought them off too tbf.

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    PantsBPantsB Fake Thomas Jefferson Registered User regular
    edited May 2017
    Elki wrote: »
    From the Financial Times news editor on the shifting allegiances between rounds 1 & 2.



    The Macron > Le Pen - Le Pen > Macron people must the most special of all. Lots of abstentions, obviously.

    I wonder if the number of absentees would hold if you switch candidates around.

    I think this is another nail in the coffin for the "the appeal of racist right wing populism sweeping the developed world is the populism" case. The more xenophobic a candidate was in round 1 (Fillon being #2) the more likely they voted for LePen, but the case can't be made for how populist a candidate was.

    PantsB on
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    AbsalonAbsalon Lands of Always WinterRegistered User regular
    edited May 2017
    Instead of being mad at Macron for not wanting to try what Hollande already tried and failed with all over again, progressives and socialists should be wanting to smack Hamon across the face for refusing to drop out and endorse Mélenchon. Talk about spiting leftist causes and abetting fascists in general because you don't approve of the upstart taking your crown. You're not getting the crown back. Read the writing on the wall.

    Absalon on
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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    PantsB wrote: »
    Elki wrote: »
    From the Financial Times news editor on the shifting allegiances between rounds 1 & 2.



    The Macron > Le Pen - Le Pen > Macron people must the most special of all. Lots of abstentions, obviously.

    I wonder if the number of absentees would hold if you switch candidates around.

    I think this is another nail in the coffin for the "the appeal of racist right wing populism sweeping the developed world is the populism" case. The more xenophobic a candidate was in round 1 (Fillon being #2) the more likely they voted for LePen, but the case can't be made for how populist a candidate was.

    They're still referring to LePen as populist even when she only got 1/3rd of popular support. Populism without popularity is just demagoguey, but it's impolite to say that out loud.

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    CptKemzikCptKemzik Registered User regular
    edited May 2017
    Absalon wrote: »
    Instead of being mad at Macron for not wanting to try what Hollande already tried and failed with all over again, progressives and socialists should be wanting to smack Hamon across the face for refusing to drop out and endorse Mélenchon. Talk about spiting leftist causes and abetting fascists in general because you don't approve of the upstart taking your crown. You're not getting the crown back. Read the writing on the wall.

    Hamon tried, and failed, to form a unity left campaign with Melenchon, and told what little of a base he had to throw their lot in with Macron after the first round as the data conclusively proves (also while not a capitalist is closer to Macron on most other issues).

    Melenchon refused to do such a campaign (even though many on the French Left wanted such an effort) and Melenchon waffled about telling his base to vote for Macron.

    If there was a Socialist acting out of spite for not being able to "get the crown back" it's Republican-lite islamophobe Manuel Valls who promptly ditched campaigning for the PS once primary voters told him (for a second time!) to go pound sand.

    CptKemzik on
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    TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    A salient point that the Macron campaign put forward to get people to vote:

    Heh. The difference in competence is striking.

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    MayabirdMayabird Pecking at the keyboardRegistered User regular
    PantsB wrote: »
    France is the first nation to stay on the same side in our second world war relapse. Good job France.

    The Dutch fought them off too tbf.

    Which also cheered me about France. One time could be a fluke. You can't even begin to hope/fear there's a pattern until a second event happens.

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    ZythonZython Registered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    Hey France, thanks for not electing the fascist nationalists.

    Now we just have to do this whole song and dance again next year when Sweden has their elections.

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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    This was the big one, though. France trying to leave the EU would be disastrous.

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    ZythonZython Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    This was the big one, though. France trying to leave the EU would be disastrous.

    Granted, but any country falling to far-right ethnic nationalism is shitty. Don't need anyone else going the way of Poland, Hungary, or Greece.

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    Mr KhanMr Khan Not Everyone WAHHHRegistered User regular
    Zython wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    This was the big one, though. France trying to leave the EU would be disastrous.

    Granted, but any country falling to far-right ethnic nationalism is shitty. Don't need anyone else going the way of Poland, Hungary, or Greece.

    Greece's government is left-wing and their people refused Grexit in a referendum (well, abandoning the Euro, which would have basically led to Grexit). The Golden Dawn party, the Greek Nazis, were pretty thoroughly crushed after some gains earlier this decade. Haven't been a factor in years.

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    Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    Mr Khan wrote: »
    Zython wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    This was the big one, though. France trying to leave the EU would be disastrous.

    Granted, but any country falling to far-right ethnic nationalism is shitty. Don't need anyone else going the way of Poland, Hungary, or Greece.

    Greece's government is left-wing and their people refused Grexit in a referendum (well, abandoning the Euro, which would have basically led to Grexit). The Golden Dawn party, the Greek Nazis, were pretty thoroughly crushed after some gains earlier this decade. Haven't been a factor in years.

    They've been attacking refugee camps in the country since Trump came to power.

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    PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    edited May 2017
    There's something pure, something archetypal, about the Sweden Democrats. Somber suits, meticulously combed hair, chasing racial minorities down the street brandishing iron pipes.

    PLA on
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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Mr Khan wrote: »
    Zython wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    This was the big one, though. France trying to leave the EU would be disastrous.

    Granted, but any country falling to far-right ethnic nationalism is shitty. Don't need anyone else going the way of Poland, Hungary, or Greece.

    Greece's government is left-wing and their people refused Grexit in a referendum (well, abandoning the Euro, which would have basically led to Grexit). The Golden Dawn party, the Greek Nazis, were pretty thoroughly crushed after some gains earlier this decade. Haven't been a factor in years.

    And Poland's entire government effectively died in 2010 and had to be reconstituted.

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    KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    Mr Khan wrote: »
    Zython wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    This was the big one, though. France trying to leave the EU would be disastrous.

    Granted, but any country falling to far-right ethnic nationalism is shitty. Don't need anyone else going the way of Poland, Hungary, or Greece.

    Greece's government is left-wing and their people refused Grexit in a referendum (well, abandoning the Euro, which would have basically led to Grexit). The Golden Dawn party, the Greek Nazis, were pretty thoroughly crushed after some gains earlier this decade. Haven't been a factor in years.
    I'm pretty sure the Greeks voted overwhelmingly against the EU's bailout conditions (which in effect means they voted to leave the Euro), then their government ignored them and accepted the troika's demands anyway.

    Unless you're talking about a different referendum that I'm unfamiliar with.

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    CptKemzikCptKemzik Registered User regular
    Macron election: French ex-PM Manuel Valls wants to join En Marche - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39854812

    En Marche's response: "Yeah... um ok sure, you need to register by today though (please don't though nobody really wants you around anymore)." Would be interesting if forgetting to cross t's and dot I's in preference for grandstanding ends his political career for the time being.

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    autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    edited May 2017
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    DedwrekkaDedwrekka Metal Hell adjacentRegistered User regular
    Macron's campaign was being hacked by people with ties to Russia. With a side of "Wikileaks is still a Russian stooge".

    https://arstechnica.com/security/2017/05/macron-campaign-team-used-honeypot-accounts-to-fake-out-fancy-bear/
    The failed effort by Russian attackers to influence the outcome of the French presidential campaign in its final hours was in part a forced error, thanks to an active defense by the digital team of French president-elect Emmanuel Macron's campaign organization, the digital director of the campaign has claimed. Campaign team members told the New York Times that as the phishing attacks mounted, they created a collection of fake e-mail accounts seeded with false information.

    "We created false accounts, with false content, as traps," Macron campaign digital director Mounir Mahjoubi told the Times. "We did this massively, to create the obligation for them to verify, to determine whether it was a real account."

    Wikileaks then disseminated easily disproven documents from the hackers, and tried to refute the proof of Russian hacking.
    Multiple documents were proven to be forgeries, including one which appeared to be an invoice for a Bitcoin payment for mephedrone ("bath salts") to be sent to the French National Assembly. The Bitcoin wallet and blockchain transaction data was easily determined to be fake.

    WikiLeaks, which initially spread links to the documents posted by the attackers, responded to Ars' previous coverage of the hack by tweeting, "It is unlikely that it could have been a mistake. Mostly likely it is a false flag or deliberate Russian signaling."

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    honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    Germany doesn't want to completly buck the right wing trend and the center left suffered another -this time rather crushing- defeat in the state elections. MerkeL is the big winner with the the far right AFD and classical liberal FDB making large gains. Looks increasingly like a sure thing for Merkel.

    bbc.com/news/world-europe-39914333

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    V1mV1m Registered User regular
    honovere wrote: »
    Germany doesn't want to completly buck the right wing trend and the center left suffered another -this time rather crushing- defeat in the state elections. MerkeL is the big winner with the the far right AFD and classical liberal FDB making large gains. Looks increasingly like a sure thing for Merkel.

    bbc.com/news/world-europe-39914333

    Well thank god for that.

This discussion has been closed.