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Oh Lordy!,Creationism
Riboflavin
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
My kids go to a private school that I think is awesome except that they teach Creationism. I have told them to put whatever their teacher says on the test but I have explained evolution to them to the best of my limited ability and this is what I believe. Most of the time this has not been an issue. This year they are pushing an overnight field trip to a creationism museum. The kids want to go but I told them "no". It has a substantial cost and I do not want to pay to make them more ignorant. Lately, one of them has started with some push back when I talk about evolution. I fear I am losing the war.
I am not sure the best way to handle this.They have some arguments against evolution that I am sure are from some creationist's pamphlet and the kid's can parrot them nicely.(Stuff like creatures can make small changes over time but don't have the genes to become a different creature-Humans couldn't have come from apes)
How is the best way to nudge them towards evolution without being too much of a jerk and having them rebel? Should I just let it go? I'm not sure I can.
I am not sure the best way to handle this.They have some arguments against evolution that I am sure are from some creationist's pamphlet and the kid's can parrot them nicely.(Stuff like creatures can make small changes over time but don't have the genes to become a different creature-Humans couldn't have come from apes)
How is the best way to nudge them towards evolution without being too much of a jerk and having them rebel? Should I just let it go? I'm not sure I can.
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As for the ACT, that's individual to the student, but it's a worthy reason to stick in the school. Unfortunately there's not a whole lot you can do other than ostracize your kids by removing them from the class specifically (and the school will likely make it their mission to lie and teach them harder), or, take them out of the school. You're not going to be very successful unteaching what they're being taught all day.
This sentence makes no sense, to me. Organisms don't 'make changes' they are born, changed. If they have genes, those genes don't make them 'become a different creature' they are born as a different organism. Humans didn't come from modern apes, humans and apes both came from a common ancestor.
But outside of that, I feel like this is one of the things that will be sorted out with more schooling. Creationism doesn't really stand up to rigorous inspection. If they are interested in learning more about it, there are a lot of good books on the subject that you could get them. If you are worried about ACT scores, then I am guessing you want them to be college bound. Unless they go to a religious college, they are going to be taught evolution, if they take any life science classes.
PSN:Furlion
In terms of the field trip, I think that is where you can draw a line, because you don't have to spend your own money on something like that. I don't know how easy or advisable it is to try to appease your children afterwards if they are particularly disappointed, but you should at least consider some options that might reduce the sting of not being able to share an experience with their classmates.
But just take them out of the school. The issues with the moronic drool pooling that is creationism is in some ways less its own idiocy, than that it trains your kid to accept all the other unfounded dogmatic drivel. And the venn diagram for schools that teach creationism and schools that teach any and every other flavor of regressive bullshit is basically a circle.
If you like the school for other reasons it's worth weighing those against whatever your feelings are about creationism being taught there; in terms of admissions tests I doubt there's much that the school is doing that specifically prepares students to score well (unless they have in-house test prep courses or something, which of course you can also find elsewhere.)
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Think about it this way - what if your kids want to be scientists one day? What if they want to enter into biological studies? Knowing proper, established science is important.
Personally I would be worried about what else that school is teaching them.
ACT scores are important, but the investment of time and money could easily go to an ACT prep course and you're missing the forest for all the trees.
You want balanced intelligent happy adult children. Worrying about ACT scores to the exclusion of other skills isn't a good idea. The knowledge and experience they need to think critically seems incompatible with the education they are receiving.
Edit: phone edits, ugh.
Great ACT scores, total ignorance of how science works. Your choice. Higher average ACT scores are usually more indicative of an average pool of people wealthy enough to send their kids to a school than the school's performance itself anyway.
I'm sure there are several complicating factors here that you didn't mention. For example: is this a "X Religion" school that you and/or your wife are part of? In that case, enrollment in the school becomes a proxy for commitment to your faith. Like I said, just an example, but being aware of all the factors involved in this decision will help discussions with yourself/wife/kids/family.
If it really is only about better ACT scores versus a fundamentally flawed science (and arguably STEM) education, then the answer is painfully self-evident.
As a side note, it's been awhile since I took the pre-college exams. Is evolution, genetics, biology, etc not tested?
What they learn now will impact their habits and preparedness for higher education.
I would have never sent them there to begin with.
It's selection bias.
https://fredrikdeboer.com/2017/03/29/why-selection-bias-is-the-most-powerful-force-in-education/
It is always selection bias
As was mentioned above... I'd have SERIOUS misgivings about what else they are teaching, and how, if creationism is more than just a footnote about wrong/contradictory beliefs in a history/biology class.
What else is incorrect there that just hasn't caught your eye?
A "good school" is more than merely a wallet biopsy of the enrolled student's families. To suggest otherwise is overly reductionist. Wanting to send your child to a school that offers the best possible opportunities for your child's future is laudable. Average ACT/SAT scores are part of that picture. However, as has been said, this is a proxy value. The more important question is how are those scores achieved? Do they have formal prep-classes? Do they excel in other areas (music/arts, social/community outreach, sports, etc) and high performance on exams is a result of a generalized atmosphere of encouragement? Or are they falsely elevated by directly or indirectly suppressing other schools in the community?
My advice? Try to look at the whole of an institution and not just the published "facts" and statistics. Remember that it's not the sole job of the school to teach your children. Parents, extended family, peers, and the community have a role. You will not agree with everything that is being presented to your children at school. If you think you do, you aren't paying close enough attention to what they are teaching. In my opinion, areas that you disagree with are opportunities to teach your kids far more important skills, like critical thinking and tolerance for different views/people.
My personal background places prime importance on science, so I would not send my children to a school that teaches creationism as a science. However, I can understand someone else with a different relative valuation arriving at a different conclusion.
What are the other options in your area? Are there other private schools or alternative schools? Are the public schools restricted by zip code? Any charter schools?
Are you willing to move to enroll in a different school?
Is home schooling an option?
I think it's important to consider the alternatives before becoming too invested in convincing your wife/children to change schools.
My suggestion is to create a little cognitive dissonance. Instead of going to a science museum, maybe go to a ballgame or an amusement park. Talk about the "rules" in those environments (either game rules, social rules, or laws of physics). How do they make rollercoasters safe? Fast enough to be exciting but not so fast as to render people unconscious? Nudge their thinking toward a systematic approach to problem solving. You want them to build their own framework for problem solving, then when you ask them to consider creationism within it, it will clash.
What I'm saying it, it's possible to find a religious school that I'm sure is just as religious as the school your kids go to in the religion you and/or your wife practice, but which also teaches real science. If you don't want them going to a religious school at all, obviously that's not a total fix for you. But if your primary concern is the science program and that they not come home with spontaneous generation and other such ridiculousness in their heads, it might be a good compromise to find a religious school with a good science program instead of Ben Stein's School of Intelligent Design.
This. Put the money to use in specific extracurricular activities if you care that much about test scores. Also, consider that you could just hire a private tutor for the amount of money you would save, which would give you additional time to do other things with your life than having to unteach terrible ideas.
Thiiiiiis is an incredibly important point. SAT/ACT study is not going to show them how condoms work or explain to them that hormonal birth control cannot hormone away superherpegonorrhea unless they are taking a very different test than I did. It is also not going to teach them about the importance of respect and consent, and frankly the sex ed program might not either, but it will be a lot easier for you to supplement than to adequately teach the rest.
If their science curriculum is creationism though, I'm guessing their sex ed curriculum will be "don't."
The data suggests that "good" school is almost entirely due to socioeconomic factors. Test preparation courses have only a marginal effect. Attention to other areas and an "atmosphere of encouragement" are also correlated with wealth. It's not that money causes better scores, but that higher wealth means better educated parents, parents better able to spend time on their childs education, and more resources to spend on the children.
Unless all other nearby schools conflict with capitalizing on these factors, the eventual act scores of your kids are unlikely to be affected by changing schools.
my advice is do check for all those things windburn mentions, but don't get hung up on them. You are the most important force in helping your kid succeed. Letting them learn creationism for marginally improved test scores is doing them a disservice.
I'd also question if you think that LGBTQ folks are, ya know, people and what you think the school and the teachers are going to teach with regards to that. It isn't 1:1 with creationism but those idea travel in packs and if they're told that creationism is fine to teach then they won't be shy about how <foo> is unnatural/unhealthy/ungood.
If you look at the current American politicians in power right now and say, "Yes, I want that for my children," then keep them in that school.
Trump, et al. are very, very, ignorant but very successful as well.
Evangelical abstinence-only sex ed (which is the kind I got at my ostensibly secular public school) is far worse than just 'don't.' It's active slut-shaming. I was told that virgins are like newly opened roses and every time you have sex it's like ripping a petal off, and then you're ruined and ugly and no one will love you unless they're already legally attached to you. This is literally what they tried to teach me. They also demonize contraception so when teens inevitably do end up having sex, they are far more likely to get pregnant with STDs.
Also was told that being gay is worse than murder, because murder only hurts a person, but gay sex hurts God.
Another thing that isn't necessarily 1:1 but is part of the idea pack/dark rabbit hole is racism and conspiracy theories. They start with "Creation is true" and then when people start wondering "if it's so obviously true then why doesn't everyone believe it" and then naturally turn to conspiracy theories to explain everything away. Conspiracy theories inevitably lead to antisemitism; this is just a fact. Go down any conspiracy hole and within three steps there are crazy people screaming about evil Jews.
Creationist/evangelical types are very often tied in with white nationalism from long history, as a lot of those political churches got started fighting desegregation. They may not be as overt these days but it won't be long until someone in their circle they tolerate and tacitly accept starts saying that God wanted the races to be separate and that's why they were stuck in different places so dating outside your race is an ABOMINATION and also slavery wasn't that bad.
And it goes on, and on, and on, and on. Again, I did not go to an openly religious school, but I grew up in a place that had that package. I know what they do and I know what they believe and what their goals are. There is nothing good in it. It is rotten to the core and hides it with cutesy folkism, coating cultural poison pills with sugar to make it seem palatable.
Let's not make this political.
Immediately, I would try to bribe them with a Lego set or some other thing they might value more if they agreed to not go, but the desire to belong is extremely strong in children and young adults.
As it appears to be a school sponsored/sanctioned field trip, your kid's not participating would be exceptional and he/she is very likely going to feel or internalize that.
Personally I'd be OK with letting them go so long as they understood it's all bullshit. It's just a play-date or fun field trip. But if I felt this kind of programming was in any way informing how they thought, then I wouldn't agree to let them go (that's just how I'd raise my kids, not pooh-poohing anyone else). And I'd try to make it up to them somehow.
The only thing I could think of us if your local natural history museum has science classes/clubs. Even if they are not about evolution, they will express your kids to people who aren't creationists. And secular club/ activity may help, too. Just nothing associated with the school.
Yeah, I mean. You're paying to send your kids to a religious indoctrination camp. Don't be terribly surprised if they end up indoctrinated.
Also, have you considered what you'll do if, say, one of your kids is gay? Imagine the self loathing that puts those kids through. It's pretty terrible to think about.
I spoke to them about the field trip yesterday. We are already planning a 7 day Disney Trip next year. I told them cost wise an out of state field trip would put us behind in our saving for it, which is the truth. I spoke to them about how I felt regarding creationism and what I was taught growing up in a Catholic school.(A Dominican Brother told me the first 5 books of the Bible were parable to show the power of God which is much different from their Church's literal interpretation.) I may have taken it too far when I compared Creationists to flat Earthers but no one is perfect. So, I told them they weren't going.
It did irk me that they will have to "help" teachers in younger grades while the other students are going. At least they could teach them something instead of wasting a couple days of their time. I am tempted to take vacation and go do something with them at least one of the days.
This chat has gotten me thinking about other things. I am unsure what they teach for sex ed. I know they teach homosexuality is wrong and I'd like to teach them that life is short, as long as you're hurting no one, try to be happy. I will find out what if anything they do for sex ed.
I think the majority of the opinions are that this is only the most obvious and palpable reason. It's not just creationist rhetoric, it's that it means they're willing to ignore and skip entire fields of study.
Have you asked about sex education, civil war history or any other contentious subjects? There's a good chance your views largely don't align with the schools.
The way you mention your wife seems to imply that she has different views than you.
Kids also make new friends and there's an indoctrination effect in religious institutions that will eventually ostracize them for holding different beliefs. (which face it, they may be pretty sold on what the school has told them by now anyway)
Your children, your choice. I advocate getting more involved in their education beyond just paying money for perceived ACT score gains either way. You might have to show them how contraceptives work one day and it's best that happens before a pregnancy.
Edit: Your "gay is ok" won't compete with the everyday environment they're in. It's nice you think that it's okay to be gay but it just won't change their opinions.
Edit2: I did not mean nice in a condescending way. It's good and commendable you would confront them about the opinion the school is impressing on them as fact. I think that's what you should be doing. I just don't think you can compete with people in a peer group and educators.
IMO vote with your dollars - if you don't like what your kids are being taught in that private school, put them in a different one, or send them to public school and spend that money on tutoring. Same goes for the class trip. In the meantime, maybe try to get involved with homework when you can? See what specific awfulness they're making your kids learn, so you can try to take steps to counteract it.
* - nowadays I realize their concerns may have been more racist/classist than realistic, but not really on topic
I wouldn't worry too much about offending flat earthers, they're a hardy bunch.
Pull them out of that fucking place