Honestly. That school is indoctrinating every one of their friends. It's not your word agaisnt mean ol' Teacher, here, their entire social experience is going to be steeped in this doctrine as long as they're there.
Best case scenario: Your kids don't buy into to homosexuality being wrong, or YEC, or whatever else you object to, and are then forced to hide that view or be ostracized for it until they get out of there (and make all new friends anyway).
Sending a kid to a place that teaches homosexuality is wrong before you can know whether the kid is gay ought to be child abuse.
And chances are, you won't find out they're gay until their late teens/their 20s (or even later) because they're afraid to admit it to other people (or even to themselves). Thankfully I went to public school in liberal places (the West coast) growing up, so I don't have any horror stories about growing up bisexual and fucked up, but I've heard plenty of stories from people who ended up in really unfortunate situations because of being raised to think being queer is wrong. It's not something I'd feel super happy risking with my kids (let alone the issue that they might grow up a bigot if they're straight) if I had reasonable alternatives.
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Zxerolfor the smaller pieces, my shovel wouldn't doso i took off my boot and used my shoeRegistered Userregular
edited September 2017
Seriously, you're going to have to ask yourself if having your kids indoctrinated to ignorance and bigotry while they're at their most impressionable stages of their lives, for what, some marginally higher standardized test scores maybe?
Look, I don't have kids and that's something that's not going to change anytime soon, but all my inclinations are to nope the fuck out since yesterday.
edit: and to be fair, I also don't have a longtime partner who has a completely different thought on this kind of thing, but if the school's curriculum involves saying an entire group of people are lesser because of XYZ, this is personally something of a red line, and something you should think deep and hard about having a conversation about.
It's also completely okay to not be accepting of dumbass viewpoints.
If the viewpoints are "being gay is wrong" or "the world is flat" it's okay to admonish and declare how stupid those people are. You don't have to be accepting of people who push those ideas.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Seriously, you're going to have to ask yourself if having your kids indoctrinated to ignorance and bigotry while they're at their most impressionable stages of their lives, for what, some marginally higher standardized test scores maybe?
Look, I don't have kids and that's something that's not going to change anytime soon, but all my inclinations are to nope the fuck out since yesterday.
I do have kids. And I actually send my kids to a school like this, because they're in Kindergarten, and the day care is cheap.
I appreciate that they're making friends I am going to rob them of when they hit primary school, but their future in that curriculum is academicly fraudulent science, utterly toxic social views, and a wrecklessly negligent sexual education. No standardized test score is worth that, and as mentioned, those trends more closely correlate to their environment outside of school.
They will make new friends.
My comment about ostracism being the best outcome of resisting the indoctrination wasn't based on nothing. I know several adults who went 6-12 through that school and weren't YEC homophobes. They said it was a nightmare, were mortified that we'd sent the kids there, and were... adamant that we remove them ASA-fucking-P. Aspersions may have been cast on our parental judgement.
In addition to peer-based friction, they were labeled "troublemakers" by the schools and therefore subjected to all the fun times and academic success that tends to get you.
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
Wow, I didn't expect to get so many responses. especially those telling me to take them out of the school. I don't think I'm willing to do that. The hassle with my wife and the upheaval of removing the kids from their friends I think out weighs this singular issue, at least for me.
I spoke to them about the field trip yesterday. We are already planning a 7 day Disney Trip next year. I told them cost wise an out of state field trip would put us behind in our saving for it, which is the truth. I spoke to them about how I felt regarding creationism and what I was taught growing up in a Catholic school.(A Dominican Brother told me the first 5 books of the Bible were parable to show the power of God which is much different from their Church's literal interpretation.) I may have taken it too far when I compared Creationists to flat Earthers but no one is perfect. So, I told them they weren't going.
It did irk me that they will have to "help" teachers in younger grades while the other students are going. At least they could teach them something instead of wasting a couple days of their time. I am tempted to take vacation and go do something with them at least one of the days.
This chat has gotten me thinking about other things. I am unsure what they teach for sex ed. I know they teach homosexuality is wrong and I'd like to teach them that life is short, as long as you're hurting no one, try to be happy. I will find out what if anything they do for sex ed.
There is absolutely no way this is a singular issue. The school and their peers are going to be doing everything in their power to indoctrinate the children against the more reasoned perspectives you're pushing, and at best your kids are going to end up hugely conflicted and might end up pretty fucked up.
A couple months of upheaval are easily worth avoiding the long-term issues this will cause.
I feel that the conflict between your views and the school's views might end up causing difficulties for your kids. Either they agree with you and reject the school's teachings, which puts them in conflict with their entire social group, or they accept the school's teachings and end up in conflict with you. Being a schoolkid can be difficult enough without exposing the kids to additional tension. I'm sure you could navigate these waters with excellent parenting, but is it really worth the effort when you could instead choose to educate them in an environment more conducive to raising happy, well-adjusted teenagers and adults.
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
You have a lot of research and thinking to do. Good luck.
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
Your kids will test well but will be improperly educated on some pretty important subjects and unable to reason critically. If you love them and want what's best for them, send them somewhere else. It's worth the hassle.
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
The immediate problem with teaching your kid to hate gay people is the consequences. Since it is enforced by his entire peer group it will become deeply seated in his moral world. Even if he decides intellectually it is untrue as an adult, it will influence him. If he turns out to be gay, this could have grave consequences- mental health issues even up to suicide. If he isn't, but his own child is gay, he may make your grandchild's life a misery.
It's also just plain wrong and a moral evil.
This reminds me of the people who send their kids to extreme Islamist Madrassas in third world countries because they can't afford any schools otherwise. The poor kids might come out of it able to read and write, but if they become extremists because of it, who cares? Extremists never have happy lives.
My parents sent me to a religious school even though they were not religious and were slightly disturbed at how religious I became. And that school had a very sunshiny message of love and kindness, not the dark universe that the OP's post describes. Don't send your kid to a religious school whose message you disagree with. Be prepared for them to become what the school preaches.
My advice would be to have a big family meeting where everyone honestly airs their concerns and really listens to each other. Including your kids if they are old enough to give quality input.
Dude, your kids are in a school that teaches them the wrong thing on purpose because they dont like the implication of what the actual facts say. It's not a school anymore, it's a propaganda tool.
Sending a kid to a place that teaches homosexuality is wrong before you can know whether the kid is gay ought to be child abuse.
This is really unnecessary and overly judgmental and let's not be assholes and do this. This is the only warning.
I will amend it, sorry.
It'd suck to place your child in an environment that drives them to depression and/or suicide as a result of their identity. I wouldn't want to do that as a parent.
Wow, I didn't expect to get so many responses. especially those telling me to take them out of the school. I don't think I'm willing to do that. The hassle with my wife and the upheaval of removing the kids from their friends I think out weighs this singular issue, at least for me.
I spoke to them about the field trip yesterday. We are already planning a 7 day Disney Trip next year. I told them cost wise an out of state field trip would put us behind in our saving for it, which is the truth. I spoke to them about how I felt regarding creationism and what I was taught growing up in a Catholic school.(A Dominican Brother told me the first 5 books of the Bible were parable to show the power of God which is much different from their Church's literal interpretation.) I may have taken it too far when I compared Creationists to flat Earthers but no one is perfect. So, I told them they weren't going.
It did irk me that they will have to "help" teachers in younger grades while the other students are going. At least they could teach them something instead of wasting a couple days of their time. I am tempted to take vacation and go do something with them at least one of the days.
This chat has gotten me thinking about other things. I am unsure what they teach for sex ed. I know they teach homosexuality is wrong and I'd like to teach them that life is short, as long as you're hurting no one, try to be happy. I will find out what if anything they do for sex ed.
I actually have another question that is pretty important.
Why is this a hassle with your wife?
Does she agree with the things they teach?
Does she just not care and thinks it isn't a big deal compared to being in a school she thinks is the best there?
If she just doesn't see why creationism or "gays are bad" is really bad to teach kids (along with whatever wrong information they are teaching), then you are facing a much bigger uphill battle than just the school. Since you will be one of, if not the only, person trying to contradict the schools views. Her fighting to keep them in the school can be seen by them as an implicit show of support for what they are being taught there.
Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Yeah, I agree. If you do not want to discuss this with your wife because you believe that she agrees with what is being taught, then there are larger issues at play here that I'm not certain can be resolved without the help of someone like a marriage counselor.
Otherwise, you can continue to do what you are doing now, which is essentially playing on the margins and hoping that your own private conversations will outweigh whatever your children are being bombarded with in school and their social lives.
Speaking as someone who was raised evangelical and went to a private evangelical school until the 7th grade, I will tell you from personal experience that it can be a difficult transition to go from thinking that Creationism is "good science" to discovering that it is basically bullshit. There are a number of ways people can react to that information, from the extreme (digging in even further, rejecting all forms of religion as evil, etc.) to the more muted (slowly falling away from religion) to even somehow taking it all in stride and adjusting well. There's no way to know how your kids will manage, given each person is different.
Also, keep in mind that this is not something that is as simple as a conflict between whether they believe that Creationism is actual science or not. Other people have said it in stronger terms, but they are not wrong. When you are raised in a religious environment, everything in your life is necessarily shaped by that perspective. In particular, your social circle will largely consist of people who agree with your worldview, and may turn into an active repudiation of everyone who disagrees. This is not a small thing. Consider that all of your kid's friends will likely be people who devoutly agree with everything the school is teaching, and how that might shape your own children's attitudes and perspectives. One trip to the Natural History Museum is not going to do all that much in comparison to the all day, every day impact of their social and school lives.
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
Sending a kid to a place that teaches homosexuality is wrong before you can know whether the kid is gay ought to be child abuse.
This is really unnecessary and overly judgmental and let's not be assholes and do this. This is the only warning.
I will amend it, sorry.
It'd suck to place your child in an environment that drives them to depression and/or suicide as a result of their identity. I wouldn't want to do that as a parent.
Much better.
Also, I think marriage counseling is a bit outside the scope of the question being asked here. The thread is sort of going off the rails and jumping to the worst possible outcomes, when that's not really called for here. I do agree that this situation is no good on a number of levels and that's appropriate to point out. The OP can do better for a school in any number of ways, and that's also appropriate to point out.
But I think, as with most of the questions we get in H/A, this one can probably best be addressed through communication with his wife.
@Riboflavin you seriously need to talk to you wife. She's their mom, and of course she wants what's best for them and so do you. But if you're really not seeing eye-to-eye on this, you need to talk to her. And I don't mean "maybe this is not the best school to send them to" but rather "I have become deeply uncomfortable with the direction their science education has been taking up to this point and I don't think I can accept it for much longer. It is very important to me and I feel it needs to be addressed now, before it has a chance to go further."
Just maybe together you can find a solution that doesn't come down to changing schools. I think it's unlikely, and if this is really something that bothers you then you both need to be open to considering changing schools as an option. All their friends may be there, and that's important, but you guys are still the grownups, and most likely better equipped to make the decision about what constitutes a good education for your kids.
I would also like to point out that you guys aren't moving. There's nothing saying that they can't still see their friends, and it's a little ridiculous to suggest otherwise. My best friend in 7th grade went to a different school, and I was crushed, but we still saw each other all the time because we cared about maintaining the friendship. We didn't read all the same books in English class, or the same books at the same time, but if we were interested in what the other was reading we could get a copy and read it ourselves. That was a good thing! We actually did that once or twice. Another friend and I grew apart after she changed schools, but it's because she did move. We made new friends, and it was over the course of a coupe years; frankly we would have grown apart anyway when we went to college. You won't be driving the wedge between her and her friends that it may seem at first if they're still allowed to see each other outside of school (RECOMMENDED).
It wouldn't be easy, but it also wouldn't be the end of the world. It's worth considering, but it's one time. You aren't talking about changing schools every single year and killing every friendship they ever make; it's one jump to a new social setting. Despite how your kids may react to the news in the moment, no one will die, or even be scarred for life. Lots of kids have to move at least once before they start college, and social media being what it is now, they may only barely notice the difference. :P So if cutting them off from their friends is your biggest concern it can be overcome. It can certainly be overcome more easily that a limited or faulty science education.
I hope you and your wife can take that into consideration... if they do need to change schools, socially speaking for them the world will not end.
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
I went to a mid sized private school like this my freshman and sophomore years. I also am a high school math teacher.
1) Regardless of what the school teaches, the kids and the community exist in 2017. You are going to have a wide diversity of beliefs at the school. Also, you are likely in area where the beliefs espoused by the school are common place. Plenty (probably a majority) of the students at the school will believe in evolution and whatever ever else and public schools won't be an escape from any particular belief either. Also, it was never stated if the school exclusively taught creationism. The school surely has openly gay students and again, this is 2017 if anything crazy was going on, it'd be on every news channel.
2) My brother's roommate in college was a creationist. He majored in biology and is now a neurosurgeon. I don't understand it either. So just because the school teaches creationism doesn't mean the science curriculum is garbage. Also, I doubt it's taught exclusively. I'm sure their biology program is more rigorous than having students answer every question with 'because god said so'.
3) At the school I went to, I opted out of religion class because I am agnostic. In retrospect, if I were to go back I would take religion. I'd probably feel out of place but I'd get over it.
On the other hand....
4) As was pointed out, test scores tend to correlate to high SES areas. Some of the lower SES schools where I live have great AP tracks and STEM options. Some of low SES schools where I live aggressively track students and high performing students get a great education even if the average test scores are low. In fact, one of them just won a national robotics competition. This is another can of worms. Many of my 'honors' track students seem to perform better simply because they are separated from the other non-honors students who are likely conversely (contrapositively? lol) harmed by the same mechanism.
I live in a mid-sized Midwestern area and we have a school kind of like the one mentioned. Granted, I'm making a few assumptions about the school based on my experiences.
So in short, I wouldn't let the creationism or religion class or homosexuality is wrong keep me from sending my son to a school like that. However, I wouldn't pay extra to send him there for ACT scores. Unless my other options made me fear for my son's safety ie rampant drug use or criminal behavior at the school I wouldn't consider it.
Typically in schools that teach creationism the science programs are garbage because they are disjunctive in regards to the ideas of science.
The gay children will be ostracized in a school that teaches that gay people are wrong. They won't be openly gay. It's 2017, but in places that are not friendly to gays, it won't be a thing.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Typically in schools that teach creationism the science programs are garbage because they are disjunctive in regards to the ideas of science.
The gay children will be ostracized in a school that teaches that gay people are wrong. They won't be openly gay. It's 2017, but in places that are not friendly to gays, it won't be a thing.
Is this based on personal experience? There were several openly gay students at the religious private school I was at. This was in Iowa during the 90s. Plus our art teacher was gay, though I guess he was never open about it. Not that it was a secret however.
What are you basing your opinions on? I'm just interested. These places you are talking about, have you been to them?
I'm also trying to imagine a school administration hiring teachers that are 'not friendly' to gays and teachers with a science endorsement that don't believe in evolution.
If they somehow accomplished that feat, they are wizards.
I'm also trying to imagine a school administration hiring teachers that are 'not friendly' to gays and teachers with a science endorsement that don't believe in evolution.
If they somehow accomplished that feat, they are wizards.
I don't know. If they are teaching that Creationism is fact, and that evolution thing is just wrong... I'm pretty sure the selection process is going to ensure they are not getting candidates that would be the top picks in any secular school.
Nor would any openly gay teacher ever wish to teach at a school that was teaching that they were living in sin, etc.
You may have gone to a religious school, but plenty of those are still pretty secular in terms of curriculum and such. Not all of them are teaching creationism or anti gay material.
I've known plenty of people who have gone to religious schools where that kind of thing was absolutely not taught.
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
I'm also trying to imagine a school administration hiring teachers that are 'not friendly' to gays and teachers with a science endorsement that don't believe in evolution.
Then your imagination is incredibly limited. "It's 2017" is not a magic shield against homophobic bullying, bad school administrations, or teachers who think science is for losers and creationism is real. I reckon a bunch of students who went through those programs are sitting in our government making decisions for us right now, while telling us climate change is a hoax and trans people should be forced out of the military.
I think we're done hearing the Devil's case now. He has enough help that he really doesn't need yours. If you'd like to have a conversation about whether or not these things are a problem, you can find or make a thread in D&D. For the moment, though, I think we're done with it in this one.
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Every situation is different. I'm sure you can find plenty of anecdotal evidence that will support the idea of a religious institution which teaches Creationism which is also supportive of homosexuality. Short of having some kind of school survey, it is impossible for us or the OP to know whether that's the case here. There is, however, a very strong correlation between the idea that Creationism is a science and the moral belief that homosexuality is a sin. Even if the school itself avoids teaching the latter, you will invariably find more people who attend/support that school who adhere to that belief than you would elsewhere.
Like I said before, I went to an evangelical school in California in the 80's/90's, and it was 100% part of the "curriculum" there that homosexuality is a sin.
OP, I this boils down to your own personal values. If you think that having a slightly higher ACT score is worth the trade-offs being described in this thread, then that's your prerogative. But there are other ways to improve ACT scores with stronger causal evidence than a self-selecting private school population that don't come with such costs. If there are other factors at play here that are more significant, then like I said I'm not sure an internet forum is going to have the tools to help you out.
I'm also trying to imagine a school administration hiring teachers that are 'not friendly' to gays and teachers with a science endorsement that don't believe in evolution.
If they somehow accomplished that feat, they are wizards.
Private schools may not be using teachers with any kind of endorsement or certificate. I was actually offered a job teaching math at one before I finished college because I was tutoring my neice and several students there and they were all doing very well after struggling for years (Offer was withdrawn because I was Catholic). Nearly all of the teachers there were members of the churches affiliated with it who had an avid but institutionally approved interest in their subject.
Many are a lot better than that, but they are all allowed to skirt certification rules that are only binding on well regulated public schools in areas where approved curriculum trumps proper teaching.
Also, remember there are colleges just like this school, which will hand otherwise-worthless uncertified diplomas to the exact kind of teachers they need.
Hevach on
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amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
OP if you're still reading, you need to first sit down and have a long talk with your wife. It sounds (from what I've read, so I could be way off base) that you two may have conflicting viewpoints on how to raise your child and that's perfectly normal and fine, but there has to be some give and take.
Talk to your wife first. That should be step 1. That's all I've got.
Wow, I didn't expect to get so many responses. especially those telling me to take them out of the school
Of course you did. This forum is mostly populated by pretty rabid atheists, so it's going to be an echo chamber in here. Unfortunately that isn't the best when looking for advice, it's bound to amplify your set beliefs. May as well go to a MAGA forum and ask how great is Trump. I'd try asking a more neutral place to get a well balanced picture of the situation.
Wow, I didn't expect to get so many responses. especially those telling me to take them out of the school
Of course you did. This forum is mostly populated by pretty rabid atheists, so it's going to be an echo chamber in here. Unfortunately that isn't the best when looking for advice, it's bound to amplify your set beliefs. May as well go to a MAGA forum and ask how great is Trump. I'd try asking a more neutral place to get a well balanced picture of the situation.
A lot of people here are religious and also don't believe in creationism, because creationism is dumb. For instance, the catholic church and their private schools are a big proponent of the big bang and evolutionary sciences.
You only see this weird horseshit in midwestern schools, especially ones under the iron thumb of Mormons or Baptists.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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MayabirdPecking at the keyboardRegistered Userregular
Also what's this supposed neutral ground between "being taught that homosexuality is wrong" and "not being taught that homosexuality is wrong"?
That's an interesting hypothesis. Let me ask this, are you religious? Who here that replied is? Also, I'm pretty sure the catholic church isn't real happy with the whole gay thing either, unless you are saying that creationism is weird horseshit, but gay as a sin is cool?
My point here really is just that this is a good forum for asking a lot of different questions, however, religiously charged ones are a bad idea.
That's an interesting hypothesis. Let me ask this, are you religious? Who here that replied is? Also, I'm pretty sure the catholic church isn't real happy with the whole gay thing either, unless you are saying that creationism is weird horseshit, but gay as a sin is cool?
My point here really is just that this is a good forum for asking a lot of different questions, however, religiously charged ones are a bad idea.
The former students who lectured my progressive, athiest ass about sending my kids there are god fearing Trump voters. They just like science, and don't hate gay people.
That's an interesting hypothesis. Let me ask this, are you religious? Who here that replied is? Also, I'm pretty sure the catholic church isn't real happy with the whole gay thing either, unless you are saying that creationism is weird horseshit, but gay as a sin is cool?
My point here really is just that this is a good forum for asking a lot of different questions, however, religiously charged ones are a bad idea.
There are several religious people who have agreed with the atheists or have replied themselves.
This forum is an echo chamber, but not for the reason you think. We play fucking video games. Most of us are smart enough to come to logical conclusions, like creationism being fucking stupid.
I'm sorry Garick, but the earth is older than 4000 years and organisms do go through evolutionary processes, even humans. Those are scientific facts, not opinions. This rules out almost all of the forms of creationism I'm familiar with.
And also a lot of us are pro gay. So you're not really going to find people who are going to side with a place that teaches that gay people are wrong or bad. Because that's fucking dumb too.
Like I said earlier, it's okay to call out people who say dumb shit like that.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
That's an interesting hypothesis. Let me ask this, are you religious? Who here that replied is? Also, I'm pretty sure the catholic church isn't real happy with the whole gay thing either, unless you are saying that creationism is weird horseshit, but gay as a sin is cool?
My point here really is just that this is a good forum for asking a lot of different questions, however, religiously charged ones are a bad idea.
There are several religious people who have agreed with the atheists or have replied themselves.
This forum is an echo chamber, but not for the reason you think. We play fucking video games. Most of us are smart enough to come to logical conclusions, like creationism being fucking stupid.
I'm sorry Garick, but the earth is older than 4000 years and organisms do go through evolutionary processes, even humans. Those are scientific facts, not opinions. This rules out almost all of the forms of creationism I'm familiar with.
And also a lot of us are pro gay. So you're not really going to find people who are going to side with a place that teaches that gay people are wrong or bad. Because that's fucking dumb too.
Like I said earlier, it's okay to call out people who say dumb shit like that.
More to the point, the OP already stated these teachings were objectionable. This thread was made seeking advice on how to deal with a school teaching your children things you object to.
The general sentiment expressed here is that it will be an uphill battle, and victory may still come with negative consequences.
I would* give the same advice to someone who didn't like that their child's school didn't teach creationism and that gays are evil. The views themselves aren't central to the issue; the issue is that you're marinating them in something you hate, and hoping you can counteract it with the right wine and a little salt and pepper after the fact
*(Would, here being applied to a hypothetical where I were somehow compelled to offer constructive advice to such a person, and not just yell at them.)
I'm a Christian who went to a religious school and I think ArbitraryDescriptor is making a mistake sending his kids to a school that teaches incorrect science due to dogma, and homophobia. There are many good religious schools that provide a good education and a positive environment of love for children. Preaching hate and falsehood is not a natural part of Christianity; quite the opposite in my opinion. Religious schools can be wonderful schools - but being religious does not excuse them when they fail.
My advice is still to have a family meeting and discuss this openly. If the children are old enough to understand they may have useful input. They may be uncomfortable with the school but not feel able to criticize it to their parents, since kids don't necessarily understand the difference between "I hate science because Mr Jones sets too much homework and smells bad" and "I hate science because Mr Jones sends me to detention when I say that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago." They don't know that in the latter case they have valid objections and aren't just being rebellious.
Let me speak to this as a regularly attending member of the Episcopal Church, a protestant denomination that dates back to the Revolution, and also as a parent of 3 kids, two of whom are now active forum members right here at Penny Arcade.
- If you disagree with the moral structure of the school where your kids are attending, you should remove them to public school. Public school will not doom their chances of success in college, and a school with such a strong evangelical / Pentecostal bent is going to harm or limit their success when applying for college (assuming it does K-12) or set them up for a dramatic, upsetting culture shock when they move on if not.
- If your wife disagrees with you, you need to get yourselves on the same page immediately.
- If you think you'll win the battle of influence where you are on the one side of a religious issue, and literally everyone else in their lives are on the other, you are probably wrong.
- The lessons they learn at a young age are more deeply ingrained and more impactful than the classes they actually take. Now is the time to change course.
- ACTs are basically irrelevant. They aren't even the preferred test for college admissions, and unless you expect one of your kids to blow the doors off their entire educational life, they'll get good enough scores with dedication and hard work to get into a raft of state schools with whatever SAT / ACT scores they get from a public education.
Personally, and again as a churchgoer and believer, my opinion is that your kids are attending a school that does not value critical thinking skills. This doesn't sound like a Jesuit academy that demands a questioning mind and turns out scientists who also maintain a deep faith.
I would strongly, strongly consider removing them.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
Wow, I didn't expect to get so many responses. especially those telling me to take them out of the school
Of course you did. This forum is mostly populated by pretty rabid atheists, so it's going to be an echo chamber in here. Unfortunately that isn't the best when looking for advice, it's bound to amplify your set beliefs. May as well go to a MAGA forum and ask how great is Trump. I'd try asking a more neutral place to get a well balanced picture of the situation.
I'm not an athiest, I'm a devout Christian. I would not send my child to a school that refused to teach evolution, and I think that the OP is probably setting his kids back education-wise if he doesn't at minimum supplement their education on geology and other earth sciences.*
*Probably this kind of supplementation will not be particularly useful at this point, probably would have been better to try to install an interest in planetary science when they were much younger, before that school got hold.
Cambiata on
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
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Honestly. That school is indoctrinating every one of their friends. It's not your word agaisnt mean ol' Teacher, here, their entire social experience is going to be steeped in this doctrine as long as they're there.
Best case scenario: Your kids don't buy into to homosexuality being wrong, or YEC, or whatever else you object to, and are then forced to hide that view or be ostracized for it until they get out of there (and make all new friends anyway).
Look, I don't have kids and that's something that's not going to change anytime soon, but all my inclinations are to nope the fuck out since yesterday.
edit: and to be fair, I also don't have a longtime partner who has a completely different thought on this kind of thing, but if the school's curriculum involves saying an entire group of people are lesser because of XYZ, this is personally something of a red line, and something you should think deep and hard about having a conversation about.
If the viewpoints are "being gay is wrong" or "the world is flat" it's okay to admonish and declare how stupid those people are. You don't have to be accepting of people who push those ideas.
I appreciate that they're making friends I am going to rob them of when they hit primary school, but their future in that curriculum is academicly fraudulent science, utterly toxic social views, and a wrecklessly negligent sexual education. No standardized test score is worth that, and as mentioned, those trends more closely correlate to their environment outside of school.
They will make new friends.
My comment about ostracism being the best outcome of resisting the indoctrination wasn't based on nothing. I know several adults who went 6-12 through that school and weren't YEC homophobes. They said it was a nightmare, were mortified that we'd sent the kids there, and were... adamant that we remove them ASA-fucking-P. Aspersions may have been cast on our parental judgement.
In addition to peer-based friction, they were labeled "troublemakers" by the schools and therefore subjected to all the fun times and academic success that tends to get you.
There is absolutely no way this is a singular issue. The school and their peers are going to be doing everything in their power to indoctrinate the children against the more reasoned perspectives you're pushing, and at best your kids are going to end up hugely conflicted and might end up pretty fucked up.
A couple months of upheaval are easily worth avoiding the long-term issues this will cause.
This is really unnecessary and overly judgmental and let's not be assholes and do this. This is the only warning.
It's also just plain wrong and a moral evil.
This reminds me of the people who send their kids to extreme Islamist Madrassas in third world countries because they can't afford any schools otherwise. The poor kids might come out of it able to read and write, but if they become extremists because of it, who cares? Extremists never have happy lives.
My parents sent me to a religious school even though they were not religious and were slightly disturbed at how religious I became. And that school had a very sunshiny message of love and kindness, not the dark universe that the OP's post describes. Don't send your kid to a religious school whose message you disagree with. Be prepared for them to become what the school preaches.
My advice would be to have a big family meeting where everyone honestly airs their concerns and really listens to each other. Including your kids if they are old enough to give quality input.
I will amend it, sorry.
It'd suck to place your child in an environment that drives them to depression and/or suicide as a result of their identity. I wouldn't want to do that as a parent.
I actually have another question that is pretty important.
Why is this a hassle with your wife?
Does she agree with the things they teach?
Does she just not care and thinks it isn't a big deal compared to being in a school she thinks is the best there?
If she just doesn't see why creationism or "gays are bad" is really bad to teach kids (along with whatever wrong information they are teaching), then you are facing a much bigger uphill battle than just the school. Since you will be one of, if not the only, person trying to contradict the schools views. Her fighting to keep them in the school can be seen by them as an implicit show of support for what they are being taught there.
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Otherwise, you can continue to do what you are doing now, which is essentially playing on the margins and hoping that your own private conversations will outweigh whatever your children are being bombarded with in school and their social lives.
Speaking as someone who was raised evangelical and went to a private evangelical school until the 7th grade, I will tell you from personal experience that it can be a difficult transition to go from thinking that Creationism is "good science" to discovering that it is basically bullshit. There are a number of ways people can react to that information, from the extreme (digging in even further, rejecting all forms of religion as evil, etc.) to the more muted (slowly falling away from religion) to even somehow taking it all in stride and adjusting well. There's no way to know how your kids will manage, given each person is different.
Also, keep in mind that this is not something that is as simple as a conflict between whether they believe that Creationism is actual science or not. Other people have said it in stronger terms, but they are not wrong. When you are raised in a religious environment, everything in your life is necessarily shaped by that perspective. In particular, your social circle will largely consist of people who agree with your worldview, and may turn into an active repudiation of everyone who disagrees. This is not a small thing. Consider that all of your kid's friends will likely be people who devoutly agree with everything the school is teaching, and how that might shape your own children's attitudes and perspectives. One trip to the Natural History Museum is not going to do all that much in comparison to the all day, every day impact of their social and school lives.
Much better.
Also, I think marriage counseling is a bit outside the scope of the question being asked here. The thread is sort of going off the rails and jumping to the worst possible outcomes, when that's not really called for here. I do agree that this situation is no good on a number of levels and that's appropriate to point out. The OP can do better for a school in any number of ways, and that's also appropriate to point out.
But I think, as with most of the questions we get in H/A, this one can probably best be addressed through communication with his wife.
@Riboflavin you seriously need to talk to you wife. She's their mom, and of course she wants what's best for them and so do you. But if you're really not seeing eye-to-eye on this, you need to talk to her. And I don't mean "maybe this is not the best school to send them to" but rather "I have become deeply uncomfortable with the direction their science education has been taking up to this point and I don't think I can accept it for much longer. It is very important to me and I feel it needs to be addressed now, before it has a chance to go further."
Just maybe together you can find a solution that doesn't come down to changing schools. I think it's unlikely, and if this is really something that bothers you then you both need to be open to considering changing schools as an option. All their friends may be there, and that's important, but you guys are still the grownups, and most likely better equipped to make the decision about what constitutes a good education for your kids.
I would also like to point out that you guys aren't moving. There's nothing saying that they can't still see their friends, and it's a little ridiculous to suggest otherwise. My best friend in 7th grade went to a different school, and I was crushed, but we still saw each other all the time because we cared about maintaining the friendship. We didn't read all the same books in English class, or the same books at the same time, but if we were interested in what the other was reading we could get a copy and read it ourselves. That was a good thing! We actually did that once or twice. Another friend and I grew apart after she changed schools, but it's because she did move. We made new friends, and it was over the course of a coupe years; frankly we would have grown apart anyway when we went to college. You won't be driving the wedge between her and her friends that it may seem at first if they're still allowed to see each other outside of school (RECOMMENDED).
It wouldn't be easy, but it also wouldn't be the end of the world. It's worth considering, but it's one time. You aren't talking about changing schools every single year and killing every friendship they ever make; it's one jump to a new social setting. Despite how your kids may react to the news in the moment, no one will die, or even be scarred for life. Lots of kids have to move at least once before they start college, and social media being what it is now, they may only barely notice the difference. :P So if cutting them off from their friends is your biggest concern it can be overcome. It can certainly be overcome more easily that a limited or faulty science education.
I hope you and your wife can take that into consideration... if they do need to change schools, socially speaking for them the world will not end.
I went to a mid sized private school like this my freshman and sophomore years. I also am a high school math teacher.
1) Regardless of what the school teaches, the kids and the community exist in 2017. You are going to have a wide diversity of beliefs at the school. Also, you are likely in area where the beliefs espoused by the school are common place. Plenty (probably a majority) of the students at the school will believe in evolution and whatever ever else and public schools won't be an escape from any particular belief either. Also, it was never stated if the school exclusively taught creationism. The school surely has openly gay students and again, this is 2017 if anything crazy was going on, it'd be on every news channel.
2) My brother's roommate in college was a creationist. He majored in biology and is now a neurosurgeon. I don't understand it either. So just because the school teaches creationism doesn't mean the science curriculum is garbage. Also, I doubt it's taught exclusively. I'm sure their biology program is more rigorous than having students answer every question with 'because god said so'.
3) At the school I went to, I opted out of religion class because I am agnostic. In retrospect, if I were to go back I would take religion. I'd probably feel out of place but I'd get over it.
On the other hand....
4) As was pointed out, test scores tend to correlate to high SES areas. Some of the lower SES schools where I live have great AP tracks and STEM options. Some of low SES schools where I live aggressively track students and high performing students get a great education even if the average test scores are low. In fact, one of them just won a national robotics competition. This is another can of worms. Many of my 'honors' track students seem to perform better simply because they are separated from the other non-honors students who are likely conversely (contrapositively? lol) harmed by the same mechanism.
I live in a mid-sized Midwestern area and we have a school kind of like the one mentioned. Granted, I'm making a few assumptions about the school based on my experiences.
So in short, I wouldn't let the creationism or religion class or homosexuality is wrong keep me from sending my son to a school like that. However, I wouldn't pay extra to send him there for ACT scores. Unless my other options made me fear for my son's safety ie rampant drug use or criminal behavior at the school I wouldn't consider it.
The gay children will be ostracized in a school that teaches that gay people are wrong. They won't be openly gay. It's 2017, but in places that are not friendly to gays, it won't be a thing.
Is this based on personal experience? There were several openly gay students at the religious private school I was at. This was in Iowa during the 90s. Plus our art teacher was gay, though I guess he was never open about it. Not that it was a secret however.
What are you basing your opinions on? I'm just interested. These places you are talking about, have you been to them?
If they somehow accomplished that feat, they are wizards.
I don't know. If they are teaching that Creationism is fact, and that evolution thing is just wrong... I'm pretty sure the selection process is going to ensure they are not getting candidates that would be the top picks in any secular school.
Nor would any openly gay teacher ever wish to teach at a school that was teaching that they were living in sin, etc.
You may have gone to a religious school, but plenty of those are still pretty secular in terms of curriculum and such. Not all of them are teaching creationism or anti gay material.
I've known plenty of people who have gone to religious schools where that kind of thing was absolutely not taught.
Then your imagination is incredibly limited. "It's 2017" is not a magic shield against homophobic bullying, bad school administrations, or teachers who think science is for losers and creationism is real. I reckon a bunch of students who went through those programs are sitting in our government making decisions for us right now, while telling us climate change is a hoax and trans people should be forced out of the military.
I think we're done hearing the Devil's case now. He has enough help that he really doesn't need yours. If you'd like to have a conversation about whether or not these things are a problem, you can find or make a thread in D&D. For the moment, though, I think we're done with it in this one.
Like I said before, I went to an evangelical school in California in the 80's/90's, and it was 100% part of the "curriculum" there that homosexuality is a sin.
OP, I this boils down to your own personal values. If you think that having a slightly higher ACT score is worth the trade-offs being described in this thread, then that's your prerogative. But there are other ways to improve ACT scores with stronger causal evidence than a self-selecting private school population that don't come with such costs. If there are other factors at play here that are more significant, then like I said I'm not sure an internet forum is going to have the tools to help you out.
Private schools may not be using teachers with any kind of endorsement or certificate. I was actually offered a job teaching math at one before I finished college because I was tutoring my neice and several students there and they were all doing very well after struggling for years (Offer was withdrawn because I was Catholic). Nearly all of the teachers there were members of the churches affiliated with it who had an avid but institutionally approved interest in their subject.
Many are a lot better than that, but they are all allowed to skirt certification rules that are only binding on well regulated public schools in areas where approved curriculum trumps proper teaching.
Also, remember there are colleges just like this school, which will hand otherwise-worthless uncertified diplomas to the exact kind of teachers they need.
Talk to your wife first. That should be step 1. That's all I've got.
Of course you did. This forum is mostly populated by pretty rabid atheists, so it's going to be an echo chamber in here. Unfortunately that isn't the best when looking for advice, it's bound to amplify your set beliefs. May as well go to a MAGA forum and ask how great is Trump. I'd try asking a more neutral place to get a well balanced picture of the situation.
A lot of people here are religious and also don't believe in creationism, because creationism is dumb. For instance, the catholic church and their private schools are a big proponent of the big bang and evolutionary sciences.
You only see this weird horseshit in midwestern schools, especially ones under the iron thumb of Mormons or Baptists.
My point here really is just that this is a good forum for asking a lot of different questions, however, religiously charged ones are a bad idea.
The former students who lectured my progressive, athiest ass about sending my kids there are god fearing Trump voters. They just like science, and don't hate gay people.
It's not exactly a controversial position.
I would also like to add, calling yourself Christian doesn't make you Christian.
Trump may call himself Christian, but he breaks about every rule of them.
There are several religious people who have agreed with the atheists or have replied themselves.
This forum is an echo chamber, but not for the reason you think. We play fucking video games. Most of us are smart enough to come to logical conclusions, like creationism being fucking stupid.
I'm sorry Garick, but the earth is older than 4000 years and organisms do go through evolutionary processes, even humans. Those are scientific facts, not opinions. This rules out almost all of the forms of creationism I'm familiar with.
And also a lot of us are pro gay. So you're not really going to find people who are going to side with a place that teaches that gay people are wrong or bad. Because that's fucking dumb too.
Like I said earlier, it's okay to call out people who say dumb shit like that.
More to the point, the OP already stated these teachings were objectionable. This thread was made seeking advice on how to deal with a school teaching your children things you object to.
The general sentiment expressed here is that it will be an uphill battle, and victory may still come with negative consequences.
I would* give the same advice to someone who didn't like that their child's school didn't teach creationism and that gays are evil. The views themselves aren't central to the issue; the issue is that you're marinating them in something you hate, and hoping you can counteract it with the right wine and a little salt and pepper after the fact
*(Would, here being applied to a hypothetical where I were somehow compelled to offer constructive advice to such a person, and not just yell at them.)
My advice is still to have a family meeting and discuss this openly. If the children are old enough to understand they may have useful input. They may be uncomfortable with the school but not feel able to criticize it to their parents, since kids don't necessarily understand the difference between "I hate science because Mr Jones sets too much homework and smells bad" and "I hate science because Mr Jones sends me to detention when I say that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago." They don't know that in the latter case they have valid objections and aren't just being rebellious.
Let me speak to this as a regularly attending member of the Episcopal Church, a protestant denomination that dates back to the Revolution, and also as a parent of 3 kids, two of whom are now active forum members right here at Penny Arcade.
- If you disagree with the moral structure of the school where your kids are attending, you should remove them to public school. Public school will not doom their chances of success in college, and a school with such a strong evangelical / Pentecostal bent is going to harm or limit their success when applying for college (assuming it does K-12) or set them up for a dramatic, upsetting culture shock when they move on if not.
- If your wife disagrees with you, you need to get yourselves on the same page immediately.
- If you think you'll win the battle of influence where you are on the one side of a religious issue, and literally everyone else in their lives are on the other, you are probably wrong.
- The lessons they learn at a young age are more deeply ingrained and more impactful than the classes they actually take. Now is the time to change course.
- ACTs are basically irrelevant. They aren't even the preferred test for college admissions, and unless you expect one of your kids to blow the doors off their entire educational life, they'll get good enough scores with dedication and hard work to get into a raft of state schools with whatever SAT / ACT scores they get from a public education.
Personally, and again as a churchgoer and believer, my opinion is that your kids are attending a school that does not value critical thinking skills. This doesn't sound like a Jesuit academy that demands a questioning mind and turns out scientists who also maintain a deep faith.
I would strongly, strongly consider removing them.
I'm not an athiest, I'm a devout Christian. I would not send my child to a school that refused to teach evolution, and I think that the OP is probably setting his kids back education-wise if he doesn't at minimum supplement their education on geology and other earth sciences.*
*Probably this kind of supplementation will not be particularly useful at this point, probably would have been better to try to install an interest in planetary science when they were much younger, before that school got hold.