Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA
The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

[WH40K] The FAQ has arrived

1910121415101

Posts

  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    I am still curious to see the full changes. So far conscripts are still very good. But again we haven't seen points or a lot of other areas they have so far used to balance things.

    I am hoping that plasma gets equalized to match everyone else at 13 points for a gun instead of 7. Simple small point changes will do a lot to equalize things out.

    I mean making scrips cost one more point would add up a lot.

    03x29di.png
  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt (effective against the Irish) Registered User regular
    Every time I see this thread title, I think it should be, 'They're just Morties, robot. It's okay to shoot them.' :rotate:

  • Dr_KeenbeanDr_Keenbean Dumb as a butt Planet Express ShipRegistered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    I am hoping that plasma gets equalized to match everyone else at 13 points for a gun instead of 7. Simple small point changes will do a lot to equalize things out.

    A plasma gun in the hands of a guardsman is not nearly as effective as a plasma gun in the hands of a space marine.

    That was a fundamental problem with the last several editions. It's good that they've made an effort to fix it.

    PSN: Dr_Keenbean LIVE: Dr Keenbean Battle.net Drkeenbean#1951
    No-Quartervalhalla130
  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    I am hoping that plasma gets equalized to match everyone else at 13 points for a gun instead of 7. Simple small point changes will do a lot to equalize things out.

    A plasma gun in the hands of a guardsman is not nearly as effective as a plasma gun in the hands of a space marine.

    That was a fundamental problem with the last several editions. It's good that they've made an effort to fix it.

    That's why the guardsman himself is cheaper I'd say. It also doesn't hurt as much if he fries himself with the gun.

    Mazzyx
  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    I am hoping that plasma gets equalized to match everyone else at 13 points for a gun instead of 7. Simple small point changes will do a lot to equalize things out.

    A plasma gun in the hands of a guardsman is not nearly as effective as a plasma gun in the hands of a space marine.

    That was a fundamental problem with the last several editions. It's good that they've made an effort to fix it.

    Wait, what? Ignoring the point about "that's accounted for in the cost of the Guardsman vs. the cost of the Marine", that just isn't true.

    A BS3+ Space Marine and a BS3+ Guardsman get the exact same value out of a plasmagun, and in fact the guardsman often has several advantages (e.g. Deepstriking & being Troops).

  • Dr_KeenbeanDr_Keenbean Dumb as a butt Planet Express ShipRegistered User regular
    edited September 2017
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    I am hoping that plasma gets equalized to match everyone else at 13 points for a gun instead of 7. Simple small point changes will do a lot to equalize things out.

    A plasma gun in the hands of a guardsman is not nearly as effective as a plasma gun in the hands of a space marine.

    That was a fundamental problem with the last several editions. It's good that they've made an effort to fix it.

    Wait, what? Ignoring the point about "that's accounted for in the cost of the Guardsman vs. the cost of the Marine", that just isn't true.

    A BS3+ Space Marine and a BS3+ Guardsman get the exact same value out of a plasmagun, and in fact the guardsman often has several advantages (e.g. Deepstriking & being Troops).

    Except dying way easier. You're not factoring in BS, T, and Sv altogether. No guard infantry is on par. Even Scions are still T3/Sv4+.

    Marines cost more because they shoot better, fight better, and live longer overall. Their weapon's output benefits directly from this which is why they need to be costed on their own. Otherwise you end up charging the IG player too much for a plasma gun that will barely get used or you charge a marine player too much for a marine because it could carry a plasma gun.

    Dr_Keenbean on
    PSN: Dr_Keenbean LIVE: Dr Keenbean Battle.net Drkeenbean#1951
  • VoroVoro Registered User regular
    No-Quarter wrote: »
    Would you be willing to trade up 1 u it if Blightlords for another unit of Plague Marines, @Voro ?

    It would give your list more flexibility AND give you another 100 points to play with. That's another 20 Poxwalkers, so you would have 2 units of 30. A Tallyman or Plague Surgeon would also increase the effectiveness of your Poxwalkers by giving them rerolls to hit/ better resilence. You could also find some room elsewhere in the list to add a Helbrute for some heavy close combat punch.

    I'll run the numbers when I'm home, but I've already got the two units of blightlords. I'm also short the poxwalkers in my current list, so that's 40 to buy and paint if I change it up. I also need to figure out what to do about my marines since the DI and easy to build boxes don't quite match what I need.

    I looked at the drones, and two w/ plaguespitters is way over what I can fit. I was actually thinking of dropping them and going to three plagueburst crawlers, a terminator lord, and a biologous putrifier (I think I had to swap to combi bolters for that list).

    XBL GamerTag: Comrade Nexus
  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    I am hoping that plasma gets equalized to match everyone else at 13 points for a gun instead of 7. Simple small point changes will do a lot to equalize things out.

    A plasma gun in the hands of a guardsman is not nearly as effective as a plasma gun in the hands of a space marine.

    That was a fundamental problem with the last several editions. It's good that they've made an effort to fix it.

    Wait, what? Ignoring the point about "that's accounted for in the cost of the Guardsman vs. the cost of the Marine", that just isn't true.

    A BS3+ Space Marine and a BS3+ Guardsman get the exact same value out of a plasmagun, and in fact the guardsman often has several advantages (e.g. Deepstriking & being Troops).

    Except dying way easier. You're not factoring in BS, T, and Sv altogether. No guard infantry is on par. Even Scions are still T3/Sv4+.

    Marines cost more because they shoot better, fight better, and live longer overall. Their weapon's output benefits directly from this which is why they need to be costed on their own. Otherwise you end up charging the IG player too much for a plasma gun that will barely get used or you charge a marine player too much for a marine because it could carry a plasma gun.

    I feel this may have been true in past editions.

    At this point guard have the best access to special weapons, plasma especially, than anyone else. Marines still drop like flies in 8th due to the volume and power of fire and first strikes. There is a reason most list have a giant chaff unit if they want to be competitive.

    Guards weakness is basically a huge volume of bolter shots but with how they are built and how many list are built it doesn't matter because you should be able to get your double tap off at the juicy targets first or second turn anyway.

    03x29di.png
  • Dr_KeenbeanDr_Keenbean Dumb as a butt Planet Express ShipRegistered User regular
    I'm not saying plasma doesn't need a points bump for IG just that you are not going to see the same return on the investment across all armies so it shouldn't be a flat cost for them.

    It should really be costed per unit like the old days, something like:
    Scions 12-13pts
    Vets 10pts
    Guardsman 8pts

    Because just like marine vs guardsman a scion will have a higher overall output per game than a vet will and so on.

    PSN: Dr_Keenbean LIVE: Dr Keenbean Battle.net Drkeenbean#1951
  • BadablackBadablack Registered User regular
    Can the Forgeworld Deathguard guy Necrosius be taken in a Deathguard army without breaking the detachment? He’s got a nice poxwalkers buff, just dunno if he can actually be taken in list now if he’s still a specific warband character.

    FC: 1435-5383-0883
  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    Badablack wrote: »
    Can the Forgeworld Deathguard guy Necrosius be taken in a Deathguard army without breaking the detachment? He’s got a nice poxwalkers buff, just dunno if he can actually be taken in list now if he’s still a specific warband character.

    If he has the Death Guard keyword I would say yes.

    03x29di.png
    Haphazard
  • TIFunkaliciousTIFunkalicious Kicking back in NebraskaRegistered User regular
    A local tournament is making detachments unique, so you couldn't take 2 battalions for instance

    It doesn't seem too crazy, but it doesn't seem normal either

  • TraceofToxinTraceofToxin King Nothing Registered User regular
    ITC standard is just 3 detachment limit.

    Everyday I wake up is the worst day of my life.
  • BadablackBadablack Registered User regular
    That seems designed to screw over armies that don’t have a lot of decent troops options. I run a Night Lords jump pack army with lots of raptors, and I need multiple fast attack detachments to get my meager 6 command points.

    The average Chaos Marine army has cultists and marine squads, neither of which are all that great at more than eating bullets and don’t have any particularly good synergies or traits. A Guard army, on the other hand, has multiple traits, command abilities and characters that make their troops units better.

    FC: 1435-5383-0883
  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    Badablack wrote: »
    That seems designed to screw over armies that don’t have a lot of decent troops options. I run a Night Lords jump pack army with lots of raptors, and I need multiple fast attack detachments to get my meager 6 command points.

    The average Chaos Marine army has cultists and marine squads, neither of which are all that great at more than eating bullets and don’t have any particularly good synergies or traits. A Guard army, on the other hand, has multiple traits, command abilities and characters that make their troops units better.

    Cultist are an important part of my army as EC/Alpha Legion hybrid. The bubble wrap protects my shooty back line from deep strikes and nasty charges. Also are decent at holding points. I sadly have dropped normal CSM from my roster but use Noise Marines in an EC battalion instead.

    Its hard to not use cultist now, just an all around good unit.

    03x29di.png
  • TIFunkaliciousTIFunkalicious Kicking back in NebraskaRegistered User regular
    It looks like nothing they're changing will affect me. My army list is usually 1 battallion + 1 vanguard

    It just seems like they shotgunned a few rules changes to react to stuff that has won other tournaments, there's weird restrictions on forgeworld stuff too which I didn't read because I only have codex units atm

    their event, their rules I guess. When I've played other games competitively I've seen local rules changes and ban lists. It can leave the players who want to travel to other tournaments unprepared which is offputting

  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    It looks like nothing they're changing will affect me. My army list is usually 1 battallion + 1 vanguard

    It just seems like they shotgunned a few rules changes to react to stuff that has won other tournaments, there's weird restrictions on forgeworld stuff too which I didn't read because I only have codex units atm

    their event, their rules I guess. When I've played other games competitively I've seen local rules changes and ban lists. It can leave the players who want to travel to other tournaments unprepared which is offputting

    I can see limitations on the number of forge world or at least making people have the models. Maelific Lord spam is broken and even as a Chaos player I would not run it.

    03x29di.png
  • No-QuarterNo-Quarter Nothing To Fear But Fear ItselfRegistered User regular
    Badablack wrote: »
    Can the Forgeworld Deathguard guy Necrosius be taken in a Deathguard army without breaking the detachment? He’s got a nice poxwalkers buff, just dunno if he can actually be taken in list now if he’s still a specific warband character.

    This was faqd, he had the Deathguard keyword now in addition to The Tainted.

    The same happened with Zhufor for World Eaters and the Alpha Legion guy.

  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    Armaggeddon Steel Legion

    https://warhammer-community.com/2017/09/29/regimental-focus-armageddon-sep29gw-homepage-post-2/

    Also a few artifacts. Kurovs Aquila seems amazing.

    New Character! Ogryn Bodyguard! That's cool but also annoys me in that that Mechanicus didn't get the Skitarii Alpha Primus which could've easily been made from the existing plasitc kits.

  • BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    What's this GW posting female imperial guard?
    ag5egty5itqa.png



    Well I might get the book and dig my steel legion out of the pile of 40k stuff
    But it's odd they got away from the conscripts with them but still kind of did the armored fist angle with them

    tzeentchling
  • NorgothNorgoth cardiffRegistered User regular
    No-Quarter wrote: »
    Badablack wrote: »
    Can the Forgeworld Deathguard guy Necrosius be taken in a Deathguard army without breaking the detachment? He’s got a nice poxwalkers buff, just dunno if he can actually be taken in list now if he’s still a specific warband character.

    This was faqd, he had the Deathguard keyword now in addition to The Tainted.

    The same happened with Zhufor for World Eaters and the Alpha Legion guy.

    The buff suffers from the same problem as the plauge surgeon (being the same) in that it takes 33% chance to pass to 38%, hardly worth the points. The reason to take that guy is for some reason he denies 3 times .

  • No-QuarterNo-Quarter Nothing To Fear But Fear ItselfRegistered User regular
    Norgoth wrote: »
    No-Quarter wrote: »
    Badablack wrote: »
    Can the Forgeworld Deathguard guy Necrosius be taken in a Deathguard army without breaking the detachment? He’s got a nice poxwalkers buff, just dunno if he can actually be taken in list now if he’s still a specific warband character.

    This was faqd, he had the Deathguard keyword now in addition to The Tainted.

    The same happened with Zhufor for World Eaters and the Alpha Legion guy.

    The buff suffers from the same problem as the plauge surgeon (being the same) in that it takes 33% chance to pass to 38%, hardly worth the points. The reason to take that guy is for some reason he denies 3 times .

    Isn't Necrosious only 10 points more than a Blightcaster? 1 extra wound, a better pistol, and the Poxwalker buff is really good.

    Now, while I wouldnt take the Plague Surgeon every game, you are going to be rolling those Resilience dice anyway, and every passed save forces another shot out of your opponent. This is especially useful against multi dmg weapons as you get a DR roll for each instance of dmg.

    Now the Surgeon really shines when fighting Loyalist Marines, because he gets +1 to hit and wound from Gene--Seed Thief. While useful in and of itself, this also makes it easier to trigger Death to the False Emperor for extra attacks.

    It gets better. He's rerolling 1s to wound because of his Balesword normally, but if you give him the Plaguebringer he causes mortal wounds on a 6 to wound. Combine that with the bonuses from Gene--Seed Thief when fighting Loyal marines and he us suddenly causing mortal wounds on a 5.

    So in total, that gives him 3 attacks, hitting on 2s with extra attacks on 6s, Strength 5 rerolling to wound on 1s and causing mortals on 5s.

    Yep.

  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    Guard codex is more or less out. Plasma more expensive, conscripts still 3 points. Superheavies cheaper with some much improved main guns, like the shadow sword now has 3d3 shots which is some insane firepower for not that much more than a land raider. Codex Looks really really strong.

  • VikingViking Registered User regular
    my local GW store had its birthday today, so I was able to grab one of the exclusive "primaris captains with powerfist" that they make available for just such an occasion.
    Been a while since I hadn't just online ordered what I was wanting.

    steam_sig.png
    Bravely Default / 3DS Friend Code = 3394-3571-1609
  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    edited September 2017
    Oh, while conscripts are now capped at 30 models you can merge any two squads at the end of a movement phase for one CP.

    Tallarns can outflank 3 units at the start of the game for 3cp. Including superheavy tanks.

    Fun combination: Warlord trait Grand Strategist and relic Kurov's Aquila. You can now get a cp on a 5+ whenever you or your opponent uses a stratagem.

    honovere on
  • valhalla130valhalla130 13 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered User regular
    How does indirect fire work now? Just measure and roll to hit?

  • NorgothNorgoth cardiffRegistered User regular
    How does indirect fire work now? Just measure and roll to hit?

    Yep, it just ignores LOS, everything else is the same as normal shooting.

  • No-QuarterNo-Quarter Nothing To Fear But Fear ItselfRegistered User regular
    So the Citadel Paint app is both free and AWEEEEEESOME, holy crap.

    valhalla130
  • McGibsMcGibs TorontoRegistered User regular
    edited September 2017
    honovere wrote: »
    Tallarns can outflank 3 units at the start of the game for 3cp. Including superheavy tanks.

    CREEEEEEEEEE -
    er...

    TALLARRRRRRRN!

    McGibs on
    website_header.jpg
  • SmokeStacksSmokeStacks The Myth, the Legend, the Bowman, the Shambler FuckerRegistered User regular
    No-Quarter wrote: »
    So the Citadel Paint app is both free and AWEEEEEESOME, holy crap.

    It's nicer on a tablet if you have one.

    gRAhjXV.gif
  • No-QuarterNo-Quarter Nothing To Fear But Fear ItselfRegistered User regular
    Putting my Dark Imperium Deathguard together. They're so nice looking. Can't wait for a Plague Marine kit.

  • BadablackBadablack Registered User regular
    Just picked up some super cheap stuff at a local swap event. My main savings came from snatching up models people put together badly with crappy superglue, which later split and fell apart. Why would you buy a horribly expensive model but then skimp when it comes to the literal foundation that holds it all together?

    Also, plastic glue is so much better for large multipart kits. Smaller infantry, sure use CA if you might snap stuff off down the road, but a super heavy tank chassis? Cement that thing airtight.

    FC: 1435-5383-0883
  • TraceofToxinTraceofToxin King Nothing Registered User regular
    edited September 2017
    Badablack wrote: »
    Just picked up some super cheap stuff at a local swap event. My main savings came from snatching up models people put together badly with crappy superglue, which later split and fell apart. Why would you buy a horribly expensive model but then skimp when it comes to the literal foundation that holds it all together?

    Also, plastic glue is so much better for large multipart kits. Smaller infantry, sure use CA if you might snap stuff off down the road, but a super heavy tank chassis? Cement that thing airtight.

    I always use loctite super glue. Holds together anything super tight. If you want to break something off, you better freeze it and hope, cause it's not breaking unless you only used a dab.

    [Edit] Anyone got push-fit primaris reivers or characters they're looking to get rid of?

    TraceofToxin on
    Everyday I wake up is the worst day of my life.
  • SmokeStacksSmokeStacks The Myth, the Legend, the Bowman, the Shambler FuckerRegistered User regular
    I got a few IG vehicles (a Chimera, Basilisk, and a Russ) right after I started playing that came from a guy who got them from a guy, and whoever assembled then originally used Elmer's glue.

    They were primed but had sat in a garage for years before I got them, so when I rinsed them in warm water to get rid of the caked on dust they literally fell apart in my hands. Made stripping them to sell a whole lot easier but holy crap.

    Kinda wishing I had held on to them since Guard is getting more interesting now and I'm thinking of picking something up to ally in with my Space Marines. I'm considering picking up the IG start collecting box and running it as an allied Patrol Detachment but I'm not sure.

    gRAhjXV.gif
  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    IG reviews are going up.

    03x29di.png
  • VoroVoro Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    Well that's unfortunate. Just got my Blightlords, and among other things, they only come with 3 bubotic axes so you're short even if you have one armed with the flail. Oh, and the way shoulders are setup, it looks like the pads will need to be magnetized. Hard to do a full inventory until they're off the sprue, though.

    Edit: Looks like 11 arms that need shoulder pads, and 11 shoulder pads available. Definitely 3 Baleswords and 3 Bubotic Axes. So you're not going to have a full squad of one or the other, unless you buys two sets or green stuff one. Need to get everything off the sprue and start dry fitting so I can figure out which magnets everything needs.

    Voro on
    XBL GamerTag: Comrade Nexus
  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    Voro wrote: »
    Well that's unfortunate. Just got my Blightlords, and among other things, they only come with 3 bubotic axes so you're short even if you have one armed with the flail. Oh, and the way shoulders are setup, it looks like the pads will need to be magnetized. Hard to do a full inventory until they're off the sprue, though.

    Edit: Looks like 11 arms that need shoulder pads, and 11 shoulder pads available. Definitely 3 Baleswords and 3 Bubotic Axes. So you're not going to have a full squad of one or the other, unless you buys two sets or green stuff one. Need to get everything off the sprue and start dry fitting so I can figure out which magnets everything needs.

    On chaos infantry, I always use a green stuff tentacle for their melee weapon arm. That way, I don't have to make any swaps and "tentacle arms are power axes" (or whatever) is, I think, an acceptable proxy.

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
    Voro
  • VoroVoro Registered User regular
    Voro wrote: »
    Well that's unfortunate. Just got my Blightlords, and among other things, they only come with 3 bubotic axes so you're short even if you have one armed with the flail. Oh, and the way shoulders are setup, it looks like the pads will need to be magnetized. Hard to do a full inventory until they're off the sprue, though.

    Edit: Looks like 11 arms that need shoulder pads, and 11 shoulder pads available. Definitely 3 Baleswords and 3 Bubotic Axes. So you're not going to have a full squad of one or the other, unless you buys two sets or green stuff one. Need to get everything off the sprue and start dry fitting so I can figure out which magnets everything needs.

    On chaos infantry, I always use a green stuff tentacle for their melee weapon arm. That way, I don't have to make any swaps and "tentacle arms are power axes" (or whatever) is, I think, an acceptable proxy.

    Oooh, I might actually be able to combine that with a press mold and get the axe teeth sticking out of the tentacle! Thanks for the advice, definitely going to give that a shot.


    In other news, I might just pickup two plagueburst crawlers. I like the idea of throwing a helbrute or two in, though I don't know how punchy or shooty I'd want them. List is a bit rough for now, just threw in a couple more marines and an icon to pad the remaining points. Not sure if I want to drop the lord and try to fit another brute in. I already have one helbrute from the start collecting box, and I think that's the good one that actually has all the standalone options.
    ++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Death Guard) [105 PL, 1986pts] ++

    + HQ +

    Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour [6 PL, 111pts]: Combi-bolter, Plaguebringer

    Malignant Plaguecaster [6 PL, 110pts]: Miasma of Pestilence, Putrescent Vitality

    Typhus [9 PL, 175pts]: Miasma of Pestilence, Putrescent Vitality

    + Troops +

    Plague Marines [13 PL, 222pts]: Icon of Despair
    . Plague Champion: Plague knife, Plasma gun
    . 6x Plague Marine w/ boltgun
    . Plague Marine w/ Special Weapon: Blight launcher
    . Plague Marine w/ Special Weapon: Blight launcher

    Poxwalkers [6 PL, 120pts]: 20x Poxwalker

    Poxwalkers [6 PL, 120pts]: 20x Poxwalker

    + Elites +

    Blightlord Terminators [14 PL, 241pts]
    . Blightlord Terminator: Flail of Corruption
    . Blightlord Terminator: Bubotic Axe, Reaper autocannon
    . Blightlord Terminator: Bubotic Axe, Combi-bolter
    . Blightlord Terminator: Bubotic Axe, Combi-bolter
    . Blightlord Terminator Champion: Bubotic Axe, Combi-bolter

    Blightlord Terminators [14 PL, 241pts]
    . Blightlord Terminator: Flail of Corruption
    . Blightlord Terminator: Bubotic Axe, Reaper autocannon
    . Blightlord Terminator: Bubotic Axe, Combi-bolter
    . Blightlord Terminator: Bubotic Axe, Combi-bolter
    . Blightlord Terminator Champion: Bubotic Axe, Combi-bolter

    Helbrute [7 PL, 179pts]: Twin lascannon
    . Helbrute fist: Heavy flamer

    Noxious Blightbringer [4 PL, 70pts]: Plasma pistol

    + Heavy Support +

    Plagueburst Crawler [8 PL, 156pts]: 2x Entropy cannon, Heavy Slugger

    Plagueburst Crawler [8 PL, 156pts]: 2x Entropy cannon, Heavy Slugger

    + Dedicated Transport +

    Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 85pts]: Combi-bolter, Combi-bolter, Havoc launcher

    ++ Total: [105 PL, 1986pts] ++

    Created with BattleScribe

    XBL GamerTag: Comrade Nexus
  • DayspringDayspring the Phoenician Registered User regular
    I feel like if you’re going lascannon helbrute you’re better off taking a missile launcher instead of the fist as it’s cheaper and you’ll be less tempted to run around and get -1BS with the lascannons.

  • ChrysisChrysis Registered User regular
    Dayspring wrote: »
    I feel like if you’re going lascannon helbrute you’re better off taking a missile launcher instead of the fist as it’s cheaper and you’ll be less tempted to run around and get -1BS with the lascannons.

    Or be like me and just forget the whole -1 on BS for moving, because the Helbrute is the only thing it effects.

    Whoops. Sorry.

    Tri-Optimum reminds you that there are only one-hundred-sixty-three shopping days until Christmas. Just 1 extra work cycle twice a week will give you the spending money you need to make this holiday a very special one.
This discussion has been closed.