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Las Vegas Shooting (Sunday night Oct. 1)

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Posts

  • KnobKnob TURN THE BEAT BACK InternetModerator mod
    If this goes to a shit place with people being shit at each other, I will lock the doors and make you go to D&D to talk about it.

    So don't be dicks to each other, there are plenty of other places to get mad at people on the internet.

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  • chrishallett83chrishallett83 Hi! Registered User regular
    In the USA 98% of mass shootings are perpetrated by men, and 90% of all gun homicides are perpetrated by men.
    And 60% of all mass shootings are perpetrated by white men, so banning white men from owning any firearms should cause mass shootings and homicides across the country to plummet, it's just a matter of relieving them of ownership of their current arsenal.

  • cursedkingcursedking regular Registered User regular
    it's a stupid as hell argument because it has zero basis in something that would ever be seriously considered in any way, shape, or form.

    And as someone just said, it's a weird argument to make when the statistics line up with the demographics of the country.

    It's just stupid. We need actual gun control laws and it doesn't need to be based on race, that's literally insane

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  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA regular Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    In the USA 98% of mass shootings are perpetrated by men, and 90% of all gun homicides are perpetrated by men.
    And 60% of all mass shootings are perpetrated by white men, so banning white men from owning any firearms should cause mass shootings and homicides across the country to plummet, it's just a matter of relieving them of ownership of their current arsenal.

    Why not just make gun ownership only legal for women? Just say men are too prone to violence to be trusted with firearms.

    To take this in a more productive direction, why are men so much more likely than women to commit gun violence? Why are they so angry?

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  • chrishallett83chrishallett83 Hi! Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    In the USA 98% of mass shootings are perpetrated by men, and 90% of all gun homicides are perpetrated by men.
    And 60% of all mass shootings are perpetrated by white men, so banning white men from owning any firearms should cause mass shootings and homicides across the country to plummet, it's just a matter of relieving them of ownership of their current arsenal.

    Why not just make gun ownership only legal for women? Just say men are too prone to violence to be trusted with firearms.

    Sounds good!

    Magic Pink
  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    I'm pretty sure "ban white oeople from owning guns" wasn't like, a serious policy proposal

    It was just a means of pointing out how the people that do these big awful record breaking mass shootings are overwhelmingly white

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  • TubeTube admin Administrator, ClubPA admin
    Knob wrote: »
    If this goes to a shit place with people being shit at each other, I will lock the doors and make you go to D&D to talk about it.

    So don't be dicks to each other, there are plenty of other places to get mad at people on the internet.

    Hobnail wrote: »
    This forum has taken everything from me
    This hurts but I deserve it

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  • DrDinosaurDrDinosaur regular Registered User regular
    We'll gather up all the guns, and put them on an island, then get 100 men together and have them jump out of a plane over the island...

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  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D regular Registered User regular
    DrDinosaur wrote: »
    We'll gather up all the guns, and put them on an island, then get 100 men together and have them jump out of a plane over the island...

    And then not include any ammo.

    To answer the WTF men question: probably mostly cultural. Women are quite capable of incredibly fucked up things but the macho bullshit culture men get thrown at them encourages direct violence a lot more.

  • nightmarennynightmarenny regular Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    In the USA 98% of mass shootings are perpetrated by men, and 90% of all gun homicides are perpetrated by men.
    And 60% of all mass shootings are perpetrated by white men, so banning white men from owning any firearms should cause mass shootings and homicides across the country to plummet, it's just a matter of relieving them of ownership of their current arsenal.

    Why not just make gun ownership only legal for women? Just say men are too prone to violence to be trusted with firearms.

    To take this in a more productive direction, why are men so much more likely than women to commit gun violence? Why are they so angry?

    Our culture tends to tell men that they are owed success and happiness and also that if they can they have the right to take "what they are owed" from others.

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  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA regular Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    DrDinosaur wrote: »
    We'll gather up all the guns, and put them on an island, then get 100 men together and have them jump out of a plane over the island...

    And then not include any ammo.

    To answer the WTF men question: probably mostly cultural. Women are quite capable of incredibly fucked up things but the macho bullshit culture men get thrown at them encourages direct violence a lot more.

    Wikipedia's article on mass shootings has an interesting related point:
    In relation, criminologist James Alan Fox contends that mass murderers are "enabled by social isolation" and typically experience "years of disappointment and failure that produce a mix of profound hopelessness and deep-seated resentment."

    In considering the frequency of mass shootings in the United States, criminologist and gun-control advocate Peter Squires says that the individualistic culture in the United States puts the country at greater risk for mass shootings than other countries.

    If I had to guess, I'd say men are probably more likely to be socially isolated (due in part to toxic masculinity causing men not to form strong emotional bonds and ostracizing men who violate cultural standards of how a normal man should behave) and expected to meet some sort of standard of career and financial "success" than women are (I recently saw a study showing that, for example, married white and hispanic women are less likely to value the ability to make enough money to hypothetically support their family alone than married white and hispanic men are).

    Maybe society gives men less of an ability to find emotional support and more reasons to feel like failures and develop feelings of anger, resentment and hopelessness than it does women?

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  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore regular Registered User regular
    I'm pretty sure "ban white oeople from owning guns" wasn't like, a serious policy proposal

    It was just a means of pointing out how the people that do these big awful record breaking mass shootings are overwhelmingly white

    Yeah, and this is a means of pointing out that they're "overwhelmingly white" because this country is overwhelmingly white. I think that's an important point because I keep seeing these headlines and tweets making it sound like it's a statistical anomaly when it really, really is not.
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    DrDinosaur wrote: »
    We'll gather up all the guns, and put them on an island, then get 100 men together and have them jump out of a plane over the island...

    And then not include any ammo.

    To answer the WTF men question: probably mostly cultural. Women are quite capable of incredibly fucked up things but the macho bullshit culture men get thrown at them encourages direct violence a lot more.

    Wikipedia's article on mass shootings has an interesting related point:
    In relation, criminologist James Alan Fox contends that mass murderers are "enabled by social isolation" and typically experience "years of disappointment and failure that produce a mix of profound hopelessness and deep-seated resentment."

    In considering the frequency of mass shootings in the United States, criminologist and gun-control advocate Peter Squires says that the individualistic culture in the United States puts the country at greater risk for mass shootings than other countries.

    If I had to guess, I'd say men are probably more likely to be socially isolated (due in part to toxic masculinity causing men not to form strong emotional bonds and ostracizing men who violate cultural standards of how a normal man should behave) and expected to meet some sort of standard of career and financial "success" than women are (I recently saw a study showing that, for example, married white and hispanic women are less likely to value the ability to make enough money to hypothetically support their family alone than married white and hispanic men are).

    Maybe society gives men less of an ability to find emotional support and more reasons to feel like failures and develop feelings of anger, resentment and hopelessness than it does women?

    I'm sure it's closely tied to whatever makes men much more likely to commit suicide.

    Hexmage-PAFatWagon
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA regular Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    I also wonder when people talk about "mental health" in relation to gun violence if perhaps they should instead focus on toxic perspectives.

    As a man who often feels socially isolated myself, it's easy to get caught up in your own thoughts and develop unhealthy beliefs and perspectives from solo mental rumination. You judge yourself by what you believe is normal and have little opportunity to have those erroneous beliefs challenged. It can be helpful to hear more positive perspectives from others to give you healthier ways to look at the world and at your life.
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    In the USA 98% of mass shootings are perpetrated by men, and 90% of all gun homicides are perpetrated by men.
    And 60% of all mass shootings are perpetrated by white men, so banning white men from owning any firearms should cause mass shootings and homicides across the country to plummet, it's just a matter of relieving them of ownership of their current arsenal.

    Why not just make gun ownership only legal for women? Just say men are too prone to violence to be trusted with firearms.

    To take this in a more productive direction, why are men so much more likely than women to commit gun violence? Why are they so angry?

    Our culture tends to tell men that they are owed success and happiness and also that if they can they have the right to take "what they are owed" from others.

    Is it really that men are taught they are "owed" happiness and success, or are they taught toxic beliefs that make them more likely to feel unhappy and unsuccessful?

    For example, I'm single and just turned 29, so it didn't help my self-esteem when my father said recently that anyone who is unmarried after 25 probably has something wrong with them.

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  • chrishallett83chrishallett83 Hi! Registered User regular
    Well holy shit, the NRA has actually come out and said "hey maybe bump-stocks are a bad idea?"

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-lasvegas-shooting-guns/nra-calls-for-more-regulation-after-vegas-shooting-idUSKBN1CA2FH

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  • DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    I'm pretty sure "ban white oeople from owning guns" wasn't like, a serious policy proposal

    It was just a means of pointing out how the people that do these big awful record breaking mass shootings are overwhelmingly white

    :+1:

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  • OmnipotentBagelOmnipotentBagel floof Registered User regular
    I'm pretty sure "ban white oeople from owning guns" wasn't like, a serious policy proposal

    It was just a means of pointing out how the people that do these big awful record breaking mass shootings are overwhelmingly white

    Yeah, and this is a means of pointing out that they're "overwhelmingly white" because this country is overwhelmingly white. I think that's an important point because I keep seeing these headlines and tweets making it sound like it's a statistical anomaly when it really, really is not.

    When people are talking about this sort of thing they are often discussing the issue from a much more wholistic viewpoint than simply population density and a statistical breakdown of shooter demographics.

    Statistics are only useful as tools with context and even then are only a single piece in whatever puzzle they are being applied to. It is very convenient to say "there are more white people in this country so of course there are more white mass murderers in this country" but that correlation tells us nothing useful and is hardly reason to close the case. Let's revisit the comment that kicked off this discussion (the one that directly informs the "ban white people from owning guns" comment)
    Dubh wrote: »
    have we gotten into how gun laws disproportionately target people of color, and when gun ownership protects vulnerable groups when the state utterly fails to stop (and outright encourages) violence against them? like how black panthers open carrying stopped a bunch of police violence from occurring decades ago

    because this issue is even more substantial than simply banning firearms, and I'm hoping beyond hope folk keep their perspective as broad as possible when solving this huge fucking problem

    The issue of reasons why gun violence happen is a complex one and simplifying it to one of simple population density willfully ignores any and all context of the actual incidents. There is overwhelming evidence in the social fabric of US culture that racial tensions are a major problem and it is incredibly irresponsible to not consider that in the context of gun violence.

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  • DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    I dread discussion about mental health lists being a thing the government uses as a primary means of gun control

    just what I don't want: a big list of people who are automatically considered a danger to society

    that's bad enough, but when it comes asking what exactly the government considers 'dangerous,' we can look to shit like juggalos getting classified as a gang

    plus we already live in a super ableist society as it is

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  • LabelLabel regular Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    Well, calling on the BATFE to review whether bump stocks comply with the law is a red herring.
    “The National Rifle Association is calling on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to immediately review whether these devices comply with federal law,” the powerful gun lobby group said in a statement.
    The question has already been examined, and they comply. As far as I know, they are legally unregulated, and have been for many many years.

    Now, if they're serious about this portion, that is new.
    “The NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations,” it said.

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  • EinzelEinzel regular Registered User regular
    It's almost like when bump stocks got the green light people were saying this would happen...

    chrishallett83Mortal Sky
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA regular Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    Dubh wrote: »
    I dread discussion about mental health lists being a thing the government uses as a primary means of gun control

    just what I don't want: a big list of people who are automatically considered a danger to society

    that's bad enough, but when it comes asking what exactly the government considers 'dangerous,' we can look to shit like juggalos getting classified as a gang

    plus we already live in a super ableist society as it is

    As I mentioned before, I think "mental health" isn't the right focus, but toxic worldviews. It's not that these people are hearing voices telling them to kill or whatever, but that often they feel miserable due to cultural messaging telling them they have failed in some way, have developed an erroneous explanation for why they feel miserable, and want to either feel in control or exact revenge upon those they think are responsible for their misery. We need to find a way to stop men from believing that they are hopeless failures that might as well either kill themselves directly or effectively commit suicide through mass violence against supposed oppressors that ends with their own demise (either by killing themselves or being killed by the police).

    I know "straight white male" is considered the most privileged class of person, but even individuals in that group can suffer from various insecurities and hardships that can leave them feeling hopeless and bitter (even if objectively they are still fairly well off; subjective feelings don't often correlate with objective reality). Even the person responsible for this most recent shooting, a wealthy white man, might could have invented some kind of deep dissatisfaction with his life and circumstances that motivated his abhorrent actions (not that this would absolve him of his actions, of course).

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  • bsjezzbsjezz regular Registered User regular
    white men are overpriveleged jerks with their special kinda violently toxic psyches all around the western world

    in only one country can they anonymously own 40 machine guns and wheel them around public spaces without breaking the law or raising the slightest attention

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  • chrishallett83chrishallett83 Hi! Registered User regular
    bsjezz wrote: »
    white men are overpriveleged jerks with their special kinda violently toxic psyches all around the western world

    in only one country can they anonymously own 40 machine guns and wheel them around public spaces without breaking the law or raising the slightest attention

    Now now, to own a machine gun you have to pay an extra fee for a special bit of paper and buy a machine gun that was initially sold before the ban came in in 1986, which makes them kind of rare and fairly expensive.

    But you can buy a semi-automatic rifle and a 100 round magazine and just pull the trigger really fast for basically the exact same effect.

  • nightmarennynightmarenny regular Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    I also wonder when people talk about "mental health" in relation to gun violence if perhaps they should instead focus on toxic perspectives.

    As a man who often feels socially isolated myself, it's easy to get caught up in your own thoughts and develop unhealthy beliefs and perspectives from solo mental rumination. You judge yourself by what you believe is normal and have little opportunity to have those erroneous beliefs challenged. It can be helpful to hear more positive perspectives from others to give you healthier ways to look at the world and at your life.
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    In the USA 98% of mass shootings are perpetrated by men, and 90% of all gun homicides are perpetrated by men.
    And 60% of all mass shootings are perpetrated by white men, so banning white men from owning any firearms should cause mass shootings and homicides across the country to plummet, it's just a matter of relieving them of ownership of their current arsenal.

    Why not just make gun ownership only legal for women? Just say men are too prone to violence to be trusted with firearms.

    To take this in a more productive direction, why are men so much more likely than women to commit gun violence? Why are they so angry?

    Our culture tends to tell men that they are owed success and happiness and also that if they can they have the right to take "what they are owed" from others.

    Is it really that men are taught they are "owed" happiness and success, or are they taught toxic beliefs that make them more likely to feel unhappy and unsuccessful?

    For example, I'm single and just turned 29, so it didn't help my self-esteem when my father said recently that anyone who is unmarried after 25 probably has something wrong with them.

    Well it's both isn't it? Our culture creates a sense of entitlement and white men and then shames them for needing a motional support when they can't get with their expected to have.

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  • chrishallett83chrishallett83 Hi! Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    I also wonder when people talk about "mental health" in relation to gun violence if perhaps they should instead focus on toxic perspectives.

    As a man who often feels socially isolated myself, it's easy to get caught up in your own thoughts and develop unhealthy beliefs and perspectives from solo mental rumination. You judge yourself by what you believe is normal and have little opportunity to have those erroneous beliefs challenged. It can be helpful to hear more positive perspectives from others to give you healthier ways to look at the world and at your life.
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    In the USA 98% of mass shootings are perpetrated by men, and 90% of all gun homicides are perpetrated by men.
    And 60% of all mass shootings are perpetrated by white men, so banning white men from owning any firearms should cause mass shootings and homicides across the country to plummet, it's just a matter of relieving them of ownership of their current arsenal.

    Why not just make gun ownership only legal for women? Just say men are too prone to violence to be trusted with firearms.

    To take this in a more productive direction, why are men so much more likely than women to commit gun violence? Why are they so angry?

    Our culture tends to tell men that they are owed success and happiness and also that if they can they have the right to take "what they are owed" from others.

    Is it really that men are taught they are "owed" happiness and success, or are they taught toxic beliefs that make them more likely to feel unhappy and unsuccessful?

    For example, I'm single and just turned 29, so it didn't help my self-esteem when my father said recently that anyone who is unmarried after 25 probably has something wrong with them.

    Well it's both isn't it? Our culture creates a sense of entitlement and white men and then shames them for needing a motional support when they can't get with their expected to have.

    Australia is the exact same w/r/t toxic masculinity and entitlement culture, and yet don't have regular gun massacres.

  • SimBenSimBen regular Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    I also wonder when people talk about "mental health" in relation to gun violence if perhaps they should instead focus on toxic perspectives.

    As a man who often feels socially isolated myself, it's easy to get caught up in your own thoughts and develop unhealthy beliefs and perspectives from solo mental rumination. You judge yourself by what you believe is normal and have little opportunity to have those erroneous beliefs challenged. It can be helpful to hear more positive perspectives from others to give you healthier ways to look at the world and at your life.
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    In the USA 98% of mass shootings are perpetrated by men, and 90% of all gun homicides are perpetrated by men.
    And 60% of all mass shootings are perpetrated by white men, so banning white men from owning any firearms should cause mass shootings and homicides across the country to plummet, it's just a matter of relieving them of ownership of their current arsenal.

    Why not just make gun ownership only legal for women? Just say men are too prone to violence to be trusted with firearms.

    To take this in a more productive direction, why are men so much more likely than women to commit gun violence? Why are they so angry?

    Our culture tends to tell men that they are owed success and happiness and also that if they can they have the right to take "what they are owed" from others.

    Is it really that men are taught they are "owed" happiness and success, or are they taught toxic beliefs that make them more likely to feel unhappy and unsuccessful?

    For example, I'm single and just turned 29, so it didn't help my self-esteem when my father said recently that anyone who is unmarried after 25 probably has something wrong with them.

    Well it's both isn't it? Our culture creates a sense of entitlement and white men and then shames them for needing a motional support when they can't get with their expected to have.

    Australia is the exact same w/r/t toxic masculinity and entitlement culture, and yet don't have regular gun massacres.

    Because there's no guns.

    I'm sure there are plenty of angry white male Australians who blame all their problems on minorities and women but they don't shoot 50 people because they'd look silly pointing finger guns at 50 people.

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  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA regular Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    I also wonder when people talk about "mental health" in relation to gun violence if perhaps they should instead focus on toxic perspectives.

    As a man who often feels socially isolated myself, it's easy to get caught up in your own thoughts and develop unhealthy beliefs and perspectives from solo mental rumination. You judge yourself by what you believe is normal and have little opportunity to have those erroneous beliefs challenged. It can be helpful to hear more positive perspectives from others to give you healthier ways to look at the world and at your life.
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    In the USA 98% of mass shootings are perpetrated by men, and 90% of all gun homicides are perpetrated by men.
    And 60% of all mass shootings are perpetrated by white men, so banning white men from owning any firearms should cause mass shootings and homicides across the country to plummet, it's just a matter of relieving them of ownership of their current arsenal.

    Why not just make gun ownership only legal for women? Just say men are too prone to violence to be trusted with firearms.

    To take this in a more productive direction, why are men so much more likely than women to commit gun violence? Why are they so angry?

    Our culture tends to tell men that they are owed success and happiness and also that if they can they have the right to take "what they are owed" from others.

    Is it really that men are taught they are "owed" happiness and success, or are they taught toxic beliefs that make them more likely to feel unhappy and unsuccessful?

    For example, I'm single and just turned 29, so it didn't help my self-esteem when my father said recently that anyone who is unmarried after 25 probably has something wrong with them.

    Well it's both isn't it? Our culture creates a sense of entitlement and white men and then shames them for needing a motional support when they can't get with their expected to have.

    I'm admittedly not well versed in this idea of "entitlement culture". I understand it more as "successful men get high-status jobs, and men who don't are stupid or weak-willed or socially incompetent".

    I guess I could understand it in terms of white men in general being more likely to achieve their goals due in part to white male privilege, leaving those white men who don't achieve those goals feeling more inferior in comparison to their successful peers than men in oppressed social groups would.

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  • bsjezzbsjezz regular Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    I also wonder when people talk about "mental health" in relation to gun violence if perhaps they should instead focus on toxic perspectives.

    As a man who often feels socially isolated myself, it's easy to get caught up in your own thoughts and develop unhealthy beliefs and perspectives from solo mental rumination. You judge yourself by what you believe is normal and have little opportunity to have those erroneous beliefs challenged. It can be helpful to hear more positive perspectives from others to give you healthier ways to look at the world and at your life.
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    In the USA 98% of mass shootings are perpetrated by men, and 90% of all gun homicides are perpetrated by men.
    And 60% of all mass shootings are perpetrated by white men, so banning white men from owning any firearms should cause mass shootings and homicides across the country to plummet, it's just a matter of relieving them of ownership of their current arsenal.

    Why not just make gun ownership only legal for women? Just say men are too prone to violence to be trusted with firearms.

    To take this in a more productive direction, why are men so much more likely than women to commit gun violence? Why are they so angry?

    Our culture tends to tell men that they are owed success and happiness and also that if they can they have the right to take "what they are owed" from others.

    Is it really that men are taught they are "owed" happiness and success, or are they taught toxic beliefs that make them more likely to feel unhappy and unsuccessful?

    For example, I'm single and just turned 29, so it didn't help my self-esteem when my father said recently that anyone who is unmarried after 25 probably has something wrong with them.

    Well it's both isn't it? Our culture creates a sense of entitlement and white men and then shames them for needing a motional support when they can't get with their expected to have.

    in a way i sort of disagree. if a white man feels he needs emotional support, there's a whole sector of popular culture that will pander to that and champion his sensitivity. we have that to fall on: the knowledge that when our hardness falls, if the edgy schtick fails, we will always be babied back to our egos

    a recent example of the kind of modern male with a foot in both camps, so to speak, is anthony fantano: posting sensitive spiels on his review channel about why he never utters the n-word, while concurrently being a horribly offensive idiot pandering to alt-right memes as an alternate business strategy. this isn't the victim of a binary notion of masculinity, and i don't think many men are these days. it's a guy who knows he can have his cake and eat it too

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  • SimBenSimBen regular Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    I also wonder when people talk about "mental health" in relation to gun violence if perhaps they should instead focus on toxic perspectives.

    As a man who often feels socially isolated myself, it's easy to get caught up in your own thoughts and develop unhealthy beliefs and perspectives from solo mental rumination. You judge yourself by what you believe is normal and have little opportunity to have those erroneous beliefs challenged. It can be helpful to hear more positive perspectives from others to give you healthier ways to look at the world and at your life.
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    In the USA 98% of mass shootings are perpetrated by men, and 90% of all gun homicides are perpetrated by men.
    And 60% of all mass shootings are perpetrated by white men, so banning white men from owning any firearms should cause mass shootings and homicides across the country to plummet, it's just a matter of relieving them of ownership of their current arsenal.

    Why not just make gun ownership only legal for women? Just say men are too prone to violence to be trusted with firearms.

    To take this in a more productive direction, why are men so much more likely than women to commit gun violence? Why are they so angry?

    Our culture tends to tell men that they are owed success and happiness and also that if they can they have the right to take "what they are owed" from others.

    Is it really that men are taught they are "owed" happiness and success, or are they taught toxic beliefs that make them more likely to feel unhappy and unsuccessful?

    For example, I'm single and just turned 29, so it didn't help my self-esteem when my father said recently that anyone who is unmarried after 25 probably has something wrong with them.

    Well it's both isn't it? Our culture creates a sense of entitlement and white men and then shames them for needing a motional support when they can't get with their expected to have.

    I'm admittedly not well versed in this idea of "entitlement culture". I understand it more as "successful men get high-status jobs, and men who don't are stupid or weak-willed or socially incompetent".

    I guess I could understand it in terms of white men in general being more likely to achieve their goals due in part to white male privilege, leaving those white men who don't achieve those goals feeling more inferior in comparison to their successful peers than men in oppressed social groups would.

    Virtually all media shows heroes that achieve all their goals and get everything they want, in many cases because they're "the chosen one" and in many other cases through violent means. It's very easy for white males to grow up identifying to those heroic figures.

    Then when they fail in their lives because they are decidedly not the chosen one, that's when they start blaming outside factors for their failings, real or perceived.

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  • SimBenSimBen regular Registered User regular
    It's not that white men don't have privilege or access to all the help and comfort they need, they absolutely do, as a demographic, have a better hand than literally anybody else

    it's that they don't see that, all they see is culture saying that if they're not the best in the world at what they're trying to do, the absolute top-dog alpha grrrr get the girl-type, then they are pathetic losers who are beyond help

    and that same culture tells them that shooting the bad guys is how heroes get all that they want

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  • bsjezzbsjezz regular Registered User regular
    SimBen wrote: »
    if they're not the best in the world at what they're trying to do, the absolute top-dog alpha grrrr get the girl-type, then they are pathetic losers who are beyond help

    i don't think this sort of case aligns with our problem of overwhelmingly male violence, though

    it's my argument, perhaps, that not enough men end up having their egos even slightly dinted

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  • DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    if we want to talk about correlations

    the connection between men who commit domestic violence and men who shoot people en masse is a pretty strong one

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  • XehalusXehalus lofi Registered User regular
    men are raised to hold everything in

    it's not good

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  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA regular Registered User regular
    SimBen wrote: »
    ...that same culture tells them that shooting the bad guys is how heroes get all that they want

    I'm not convinced on this part, because just perusing a list of mass shooting shows that the people doing these shootings often wind up dead either by their own hand or by the authorities.

    It seems more likely to me that if a man feels powerless and believes someone else is to blame for their powerlessness that using a firearm against their supposed oppressor is the ultimate means to regain power against them, if even for a moment. They're probably going to die if they go through with this, but in their mind their lives are already FUBAR so what is their to lose?

    Say a man is timid and has had other, more confident and aggressive men walk over them their entire life to the point that they believe their own life has been severely negatively impacted by other men bullying them and destroying their self-confidence. What item could an otherwise timid man use to assert his dominance and exact revenge? What implement could cause the biggest bully to beg for their life?

    To these men, guns are the ultimate means to correct a power imbalance that they believe has oppressed them and ruined their one and only chance at life. I bet even with a lot of men who own guns and never commit gun violence that having a firearm is like a safety net, something that makes them feel secure that they have a powerful weapon that would give them the advantage.

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  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA regular Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    SimBen wrote: »
    It's not that white men don't have privilege or access to all the help and comfort they need, they absolutely do, as a demographic, have a better hand than literally anybody else

    This is speaking in very general terms, though. For example, a white man living in a rural area probably has very limited access (or no access) to mental health professionals, and also likely lives in a culture that denigrates the mental health profession, which would discourage them from seeking help if they need it. A white man living in an urban area would likely both have greater access to mental health professionals and have grown up in a culture more accepting of mental health work.

    I can't help but wonder if there has been any research into where white male mass shooters most often originate from. I'd be willing to bet most are from more rural and/or conservative communities.

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  • JarsJars regular Registered User regular
    I'm shocked that the number of shootings committed by men isn't 100%

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  • NeoTomaNeoToma regular Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    So I follow a lot of indigenous folks on Twitter, and people keep calling this "the worst mass shooting in American history," and this has been sticking in the craw of many of those folks I follow. Because it erases indigenous massacres from history, or says they "don't count" as mass shootings, for no reason that carries water.

    And I see these tweets, and I find part of myself going, "Jeez, y'all, it isn't a competition." But then other parts of myself say, "Well, they weren't the ones turning it into one by describing this horrible event with superlatives like 'worst.'"

    So they're stuck in this position of like, "Do I stay silent about this, and let this narrative go on, and further (however slightly) the erasure of shit America did to my people? Or do I speak up, and look like I'm trying to diminish the severity of this attack?" They certainly aren't trying to do the latter - the issue is with the framing, not with the horror people are feeling, but good luck getting most folks to recognize the distinction.

    Which ends up becoming a synecdoche for a lot of conversations about America v. indigenous people. Any attempt to remind people, "Hey, this happened" is interpreted as an attack, as a minimization of the present. When not remembering is a minimization of the past.

    I don't have a concise concluding point, or anything. Just something that's been gnawing at me.

    I've been feeling similar feelings about the Greenwood Tulsa being mentioned.
    Which, when I was growing up Greenwood was THE caustionary tale my grandpa would tell me about white folks. Did you know there was a city of black folks being successful and starting their own businesses? And it thrived, all black owed, Black Wall Street they called it.

    And white folks destroyed it.
    Like the government razed it to the ground.

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  • Blake TBlake T regular Registered User regular
    SimBen wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    I also wonder when people talk about "mental health" in relation to gun violence if perhaps they should instead focus on toxic perspectives.

    As a man who often feels socially isolated myself, it's easy to get caught up in your own thoughts and develop unhealthy beliefs and perspectives from solo mental rumination. You judge yourself by what you believe is normal and have little opportunity to have those erroneous beliefs challenged. It can be helpful to hear more positive perspectives from others to give you healthier ways to look at the world and at your life.
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    In the USA 98% of mass shootings are perpetrated by men, and 90% of all gun homicides are perpetrated by men.
    And 60% of all mass shootings are perpetrated by white men, so banning white men from owning any firearms should cause mass shootings and homicides across the country to plummet, it's just a matter of relieving them of ownership of their current arsenal.

    Why not just make gun ownership only legal for women? Just say men are too prone to violence to be trusted with firearms.

    To take this in a more productive direction, why are men so much more likely than women to commit gun violence? Why are they so angry?

    Our culture tends to tell men that they are owed success and happiness and also that if they can they have the right to take "what they are owed" from others.

    Is it really that men are taught they are "owed" happiness and success, or are they taught toxic beliefs that make them more likely to feel unhappy and unsuccessful?

    For example, I'm single and just turned 29, so it didn't help my self-esteem when my father said recently that anyone who is unmarried after 25 probably has something wrong with them.

    Well it's both isn't it? Our culture creates a sense of entitlement and white men and then shames them for needing a motional support when they can't get with their expected to have.

    Australia is the exact same w/r/t toxic masculinity and entitlement culture, and yet don't have regular gun massacres.

    Because there's no guns.

    I'm sure there are plenty of angry white male Australians who blame all their problems on minorities and women but they don't shoot 50 people because they'd look silly pointing finger guns at 50 people.

    I don't think it is that simple, you can point at the US's neighbours next door in Canada, gun ownership levels are at similar levels and they still don't have the same problem.

    The big problem is the idea in America is that you need a gun for protection against other people. There are very few other places in the world where people think guns are an OK thing to use against other people. People might own guns for sport or for hunting in other countries, but there isn't the culture that it is OK to shoot other people.

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  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. like fire Registered User regular
    I don't think I would say there are few places in the world where that's the viewpoint, but I would say that the places we associate with being like that are not places that we think are like first world countries like America. Unstable regions, places where violence against ethnic groups is recent, that sort of thing.

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  • SassoriSassori regular Registered User regular
    America was founded by white men who were afraid someone was going to show up at any moment and take their guns and also force them to let soilders live in their homes.

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  • SorceSorce regular Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    So after googling, I know what a bump stock is and why the LV shooter used one. How were these things legal?

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