The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
Yes, I'd considering suddenly finding a spreadsheet while playing a videogame 'ugly' :P
I also consider the pack-ratting and hoarding I've done in these sorts of games bad habits, so I'm biased there as SkyUI encourages that sort of thing.
Yes, I'd considering suddenly finding a spreadsheet while playing a videogame 'ugly' :P
I also consider the pack-ratting and hoarding I've done in these sorts of games bad habits, so I'm biased there as SkyUI encourages that sort of thing.
IMO Bethesda games in general encourage that sort of thing, and it's better to have a UI that jibes with the gameplay like that instead of being at odds.
But if we aren't supposed to pack rat, why do they give us houses?
Not a house. Multiple houses. In which to store our hoard too large for one house.
Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, be warned: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
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AxenMy avatar is Excalibur.Yes, the sword.Registered Userregular
But if we aren't supposed to pack rat, why do they give us houses?
Not a house. Multiple houses. In which to store our hoard too large for one house.
So that you can choose where you'd like to live. If you feel compelled to be a high roller and buy every house available for no real reason that's on you :P
I won't defend the aesthetic qualities of SkyUI, but I do think that its utility more than makes up for any of aesthetic missteps. I find the text search to be tremendously useful (honestly, I feel like at this point all games with a non-trivial inventory should implement it), the icons to be great for quickly parsing what item's what, the smaller font (and so more items on screen) to be a time-saver, and so on.
Obviously, if one doesn't like SkyUI specifically, or prefers the default UI, one should absolutely not use SkyUI. For me, personally, it's a drastic quality of life improvement. Most of the mods that I shove in there are either shiny things (like better visuals or whatever) or fun toys, but SkyUI is something that removes active frustrations, and for that reason might actually be the most important mod in my list.
Incidentally, I think they did a good job with improving the hoarding thing in Fallout 4: all the trash you pick up is actually useful for something, so while it doesn't fix the I-need-to-pick-up-every-fork-and-plate impulse, it does mean that you get to do something cool with them once you have them (and, in theory, means that you occasionally empty out your inventory to turn the junk into cool stuff).
I really liked the Complete Crafting Overhaul mod for Skyrim because it let me melt down swords into iron (so I could then make hinges or nails for my palatial estates); the clutter-to-crafting system in Fallout 4 seemed like a natural evolution of that.
Yeah the melting down swords and armour thing made a big difference to me. It also take the grind out of smithing almost entirely without making it trivial.
The issue here is more that the game is a lot more fun if you don't pack rat and the game should be designed around preventing you from doing that.
Then reducing worthless clutter, and giving merchants much more gold to buy things, would have been much better move instead of making a horrible UI that makes managing your inventory a pain in the ass.
Even trying to avoid looting anything that is not useful to me, or give boatloads of money, i end up carrying anywhere between 100 to 200 weight in my inventory, when entering a dungeon, even when using heavy armor, because there is nowhere to sell all my loot from previous dungeon (though dozens upon dozens of soulgems do not help).
Fallout 4 really took a step forward in how loot was handled, the UI continued to be horrible, though less so than in skyrim (except the fucking dialogue wheel), but even there i could forgive much due to the pip boy theme (inventory should have been separate though).
Bethesda have a few departments that just don't seem to do good work. UI is one, animation is another. I think it's because they used small teams over long dev cycles, they have expertise gaps.
So the Elder Scrolls Legends card game now has this thing that the first time you log on every day you get this little bonus - an extra card, some free gold, whatever.
Well, I see what they're doing there. Trying to get me to start up the game more, play more, tempt me into spending actual money.
Kinda working, too. Except for the spending money part. So far. Kinda want the Dark Brotherhood story.
The Creation Club has launched on Skyrim Special Edition, and of course it's pretty much the same garbage (in some cases literally the same garbage) as Fallout 4. The one difference is they put a new Survival Mode, which is similar to FO4's but also forces the player to deal with cold as well as tiredness, disease, and hunger (but not thirst, for some reason).
On one hand, this is a sign of Bethesda's ever-escalating greed as now they're going to charge $8 for something they added free into FO4. On the other hand, for anyone who acts quickly, the Survival Mode is currently on 100% discount, so if you've any interest, grab it now before they charge for it.
The Creation Club has launched on Skyrim Special Edition, and of course it's pretty much the same garbage (in some cases literally the same garbage) as Fallout 4. The one difference is they put a new Survival Mode, which is similar to FO4's but also forces the player to deal with cold as well as tiredness, disease, and hunger (but not thirst, for some reason).
On one hand, this is a sign of Bethesda's ever-escalating greed as now they're going to charge $8 for something they added free into FO4. On the other hand, for anyone who acts quickly, the Survival Mode is currently on 100% discount, so if you've any interest, grab it now before they charge for it.
Yeah if anyone is interested act fast. While it may be priced at 800 credits after this week it will actually cost you roughly $15 to actually get it. Because reasons.
Smallest amount of credits you can buy is 750 ($7.99) and the second smallest is 1500 ($14.99).
edit- or just download Frostfall which is literally the same thing.
Axen on
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
Frostfall for SE is still pretty rough though. And all the hunger/thirst mods I know of have bugs or are unfinished as well. I will probably go ahead and get survival while it is free. It is beyond shitty though to charge 800 credits for anything when you only sell them in 750 credit increments.
So the one paid mod that's actually kind of worth having is the one Bethesda is giving away for free for a very limited amount of time?
Somehow I think this is just Bethesda trying to get any kind of positive press for their Creation Club nonsense for once and also trying to hook people into their new money-making scheme.
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MongerI got the ham stink.Dallas, TXRegistered Userregular
edit- or just download Frostfall which is literally the same thing.
No joke here. Literally the same thing. There hasn't been any official confirmation that Chesko made Survival, but people who have poked into it are saying it's pretty clear that it's built on code from a previous release of Frostfall. If you run Survival with the alpha release of SkyUI, it will apparently even give you Frostfall error messages that you don't have Campfire installed.
Which, you know, is interesting considering one of Bethesda's terms for Creation Club content is supposed to be that you can't submit an existing mod. It is of interest that this is where we are right now. I have found myself interested in this and what it is that it means.
Even if it's based on Frostfall, it has a lot of stuff that isn't in Frostfall. As long as it isn't actually being ripped off and the author is involved, watch me give a shit.
It's really weird how heavily they are leaning on it not being paid mods again. It's blatantly paid mods.
But that's fine as long as free mods still exist and that the creators they chose are happy with the arrangement. If it was the same person who made Frostfall who made Survival Mode then great, Frostfall is really good and it's nice that they are getting recognition and money. Even if Frostfall never got updated after this it would be fine because it works well as it is.
The entire problem has been their implementation on how they get installed and how you have to pay for them.
That would be pretty terrible, and its suspicious...
Maybe chesko just got hired to do the full mod, and is free to continue porting updates to the base Frostfall?
If the choice is "Here is Frostfall which is still unfinished, or get the paid mod with a bunch of extra features and a proper UI", then that is pretty terrible and contradicts a bunch of stuff they said in the past.
Is Frostfall unfinished? It seemed pretty solid to me when I played with it on, probably over a year ago.
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AxenMy avatar is Excalibur.Yes, the sword.Registered Userregular
edited October 2017
Man I know I am being paranoid when I think this, but I wouldn't be surprised if their future games do not have mod support.
There isn't anything they can do about their current crop of games, but future titles? Why not?
On top of that, to make things even more insidious, they typically don't release the modding tools for their games until a couple months after launch. The vast majority of their sales would be done by the time anyone realizes they're not releasing mod tools.
edit- On a different note though. The one thing I do find completely fucking reprehensible is the use of micro-transaction FunBux. That is complete and utter garbage. No matter what game it appears in. That practice is pure, unadulterated greed made manifest.
Axen on
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
Man I know I am being paranoid when I think this, but I wouldn't be surprised if their future games do not have mod support.
There isn't anything they can do about their current crop of games, but future titles? Why not?
On top of that, to make things even more insidious, they typically don't release the modding tools for their games until a couple months after launch. The vast majority of their sales would be done by the time anyone realizes they're not releasing mod tools.
edit- On a different note though. The one thing I do find completely fucking reprehensible is the use of micro-transaction FunBux. That is complete and utter garbage. No matter what game it appears in. That practice is pure, unadulterated greed made manifest.
Funbux are an obfuscation layer to remove you from the actual value of money, especially if its been sitting on your account for a few months.
Its easier to get someone to spend 3 dollars of funbux on something stupid, than it is to get them to spend 3 bucks directly on something stupid.
Is Frostfall unfinished? It seemed pretty solid to me when I played with it on, probably over a year ago.
I would not call frostfall on SE finished after playing the mod on oldrim. Night and day difference in clarity of what is going on and general usability, but a lot of that is from not having SKSE and Skyui access. I honestly haven't played the new survival mode so I don't know how much of that if any is UI integrated, but I would certainly say Frostfall on oldrim is a lot more usable and in a lot better shape that Frostfall on Skyrim SE.
No mod tools = much smaller modding community = no one to create for the club.
Not that they wouldn't do it, this is Zenimax being stupid about their previously successful properties so is entirely in their wheelhouse, but it would be shooting themselves in the foot.
Man I know I am being paranoid when I think this, but I wouldn't be surprised if their future games do not have mod support.
There isn't anything they can do about their current crop of games, but future titles? Why not?
On top of that, to make things even more insidious, they typically don't release the modding tools for their games until a couple months after launch. The vast majority of their sales would be done by the time anyone realizes they're not releasing mod tools.
edit- On a different note though. The one thing I do find completely fucking reprehensible is the use of micro-transaction FunBux. That is complete and utter garbage. No matter what game it appears in. That practice is pure, unadulterated greed made manifest.
This is exactly a fear I have expressed in the recent patch, that Bethesda would release their next Elder Scrolls game, for example, and we all buy it because it's Elder Scrolls plus we all look forward to the awesome mods that will be created. They make vague claims about the Creation Kit, but hey meanwhile, the Creation Club is available right now and there are doodads you can buy right now so why not take a look?
I find it difficult to believe Bethesda would cut off mod support, not because they are the least bit virtuous, but because there would be mass outrage. However, I could totally see them holding it back just a little bit longer than usual to try and push not-mod sales.
As to the latter issue, having to purchase their currency in order to buy a not-mod is basically a guarantee that I will never purchase anything from them, even if somehow they do manage to come up with any interesting content.
MongerI got the ham stink.Dallas, TXRegistered Userregular
I don't think it would do any good to hold out on mod tools. Creation Club is outsourced content, and they need people to have access to those tools to get the service working in the first place. If they were going to do a closed release, they'd just end up in the same position they're in right now: not enough worthwhile content to get anyone to buy in. Plus, they're still going to have competition from the normal mod community anyway. Skyrim and FO4 both had delayed CK releases, and it didn't really even set the community back that much. Skyrim had mods within a week. FO4 had mods day one. Unless they completely scrap and redesign their modding system (they won't), people will just hack the old tools to work with the new game. Again.
Granted, Zenimax is clearly dumb enough to try, and they've dug themselves a deep enough hole that I don't think they see the incentive in trying to climb out.
It's kind of crazy the extent the amount that people have decided Zenimax and Bethesda owe them. They support mods more than perhaps any developer on the planet and all anyone wants to talk about is "but they're planning on taking it away right? Those secret bastards?"
It's kind of crazy the extent the amount that people have decided Zenimax and Bethesda owe them. They support mods more than perhaps any developer on the planet and all anyone wants to talk about is "but they're planning on taking it away right? Those secret bastards?"
It's kind of crazy the logical leaps people make to criticize those who express worry that something they enjoy might be scaled back or taken away. I haven't seen a single post here mention 'being owed' anything, but let's be real here... modding in Bethesda games is about as intrinsic as shooting in a Call of Duty game. Mod-makers for years now have not only altered the games for different tastes, but they've improved the games and fixed gaping holes that Bethesda could give no fucks about patching themselves. Now Zenimax and Bethesda want a piece of that pie, and instead of trying to add to the modding community's efforts, they've shown repeatedly that they want to take the shortest path to cashing in on those efforts and the good will they've generated while expending the minimal amount of effort possible.
For example, the new Survival Mode for Skyrim: Special Edition is nothing more complicated than the one for Fallout 4. However, in FO4 it was free because at the time there was no way to make it a microtransaction, so of course slapping a price tag on this one is inevitable now that Creation Club is here. But wouldn't you know it? The Unofficial Patch, as well as another guy who made his own mod, have had to patch Survival Mode because of course Bethesda half-assed it.
No one's debating (here at least) whether Bethesda has the right to do this. It's their game, they can do what they want. But fuck anyone who says that I don't have the right to complain about it.
I haven't seen a single post here mention 'being owed' anything, but let's be real here... modding in Bethesda games is about as intrinsic as shooting in a Call of Duty game.
Yeah, I remember all those Call of Duty games released on consoles where you couldn't shoot. Strange how they got such good reviews, these non-shooting shooters.
I haven't seen a single post here mention 'being owed' anything, but let's be real here... modding in Bethesda games is about as intrinsic as shooting in a Call of Duty game.
Yeah, I remember all those Call of Duty games released on consoles where you couldn't shoot. Strange how they got such good reviews, these non-shooting shooters.
That's mildly funny, but his central point remains: a core expectation (at least for PC players) is that the mod community will come in and iron out all the bugs and stuff the (already full) game world full of newer things. It was a huge part of Morrowwind, Oblivion, Fallout 3, Skyrim, and Fallout 4.
To have a Bethesda game without the community of free mods going gangbusters would be... well.... odd. A lessening of the experience. and since the experience, at it's core, isn't combat or magic or (god don't we know it) story, but instead is exploration, being able to continually explore newer creations is a pretty core component to the whole "thing."
I get that they are in business to make money, and there's probably a good way to monetize the modular aspect of their games, especially if there's a quality bar. I wasn't super against the paid mods thing when it debuted. But these moves and the way they were rolled out understandably give some folks concerns about the direction of where things are headed.
I think if you're deliberately trying to make your argument sound absurd, starting it by comparing third party mods that are used by at most a fifth of the userbase to shooting in COD is a pretty good start.
It's pretty unfair to say that anyone expressing disappointment with a decision or possible decision also believes that they are owed the results that are favorable to them. It's just an opinion being expressed.
Aistan on
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
I'll admit my ignorance here--does this creator studio thing stop third-party modding in any way? Like, will them releasing a paid survival mod prevent you from just downloading and using Frostfall's survival mod? If it is, that can be a problem, but if not they're just releasing shitty DLC that you ignore.
I don't feel owed anything.
On the other hand, I don't owe it to Bethesda to keep buying their games. I haven't bought FO4, for various reasons, and at this rate, I'm likely to not buy the next Elder Scrolls either.
+1
L Ron HowardThe duckMinnesotaRegistered Userregular
If past trends are any indication, and they are obviously not necessarily, the next TES game will be another console port to the PC, with the horrible console UI. To make it work better with the mouse, with more functionality, like SkyUI, expect to pay the $15 for those "fixes". IIRC, SkyUI, when paid mods became a thing originally, was $15. So now you have to pay $60 for the game, if FO4 is any indication another $40+ for the Season Pass or individually for any new official content, like horse armor, and you now have to pay yet another $15 to make the UI work with a fucking mouse. Why not expect to have to pay $30+ for the unofficial patches to fix what Bethesda won't? And $5 apiece for crash fixes, broken dialog boxes and poor integration, based on the couple of other mods I have to fix very simple things so that I can use the mouse to select dialog or interact with the menus. Character customization will be the worst. Having to pay $10 for Better Females by Bella, $30 for CBBE, $20 for ApachiiSky Hair. Live another Life or any alternate start mod is going to be $30. Basically, this has turned into those awful train simulators that we all make fun of on Steam that have $5k for all the different trains. The worst part being there is no way to earn it in game, so you have to pay.
I mean, I can see it going that way very easily. And that might make it so that I never play another Bethesda game. FO4 is pretty terrible as it is with consolitis.
I'll admit my ignorance here--does this creator studio thing stop third-party modding in any way? Like, will them releasing a paid survival mod prevent you from just downloading and using Frostfall's survival mod? If it is, that can be a problem, but if not they're just releasing shitty DLC that you ignore.
No. Most of the complaining is over how badly the thing has been implemented even if people were interested in buying those creations (though it's getting better), and also concern about what might happen in the future based on these trends.
Posts
How could you? o.0
*leaves to find a fainting couch*
Yes but it's been shown by actual scientists that you are insane.
You moderate here, for example.
I also consider the pack-ratting and hoarding I've done in these sorts of games bad habits, so I'm biased there as SkyUI encourages that sort of thing.
Now of course that's different from their Creation Club thing which I doubt they'll be able to resist including whenever that happens since it's $$$.
IMO Bethesda games in general encourage that sort of thing, and it's better to have a UI that jibes with the gameplay like that instead of being at odds.
Not a house. Multiple houses. In which to store our hoard too large for one house.
Not to mention "Companions" to be used as mules!
So that you can choose where you'd like to live. If you feel compelled to be a high roller and buy every house available for no real reason that's on you :P
Obviously, if one doesn't like SkyUI specifically, or prefers the default UI, one should absolutely not use SkyUI. For me, personally, it's a drastic quality of life improvement. Most of the mods that I shove in there are either shiny things (like better visuals or whatever) or fun toys, but SkyUI is something that removes active frustrations, and for that reason might actually be the most important mod in my list.
I really liked the Complete Crafting Overhaul mod for Skyrim because it let me melt down swords into iron (so I could then make hinges or nails for my palatial estates); the clutter-to-crafting system in Fallout 4 seemed like a natural evolution of that.
Even trying to avoid looting anything that is not useful to me, or give boatloads of money, i end up carrying anywhere between 100 to 200 weight in my inventory, when entering a dungeon, even when using heavy armor, because there is nowhere to sell all my loot from previous dungeon (though dozens upon dozens of soulgems do not help).
Fallout 4 really took a step forward in how loot was handled, the UI continued to be horrible, though less so than in skyrim (except the fucking dialogue wheel), but even there i could forgive much due to the pip boy theme (inventory should have been separate though).
Well, I see what they're doing there. Trying to get me to start up the game more, play more, tempt me into spending actual money.
Kinda working, too. Except for the spending money part. So far. Kinda want the Dark Brotherhood story.
On one hand, this is a sign of Bethesda's ever-escalating greed as now they're going to charge $8 for something they added free into FO4. On the other hand, for anyone who acts quickly, the Survival Mode is currently on 100% discount, so if you've any interest, grab it now before they charge for it.
Yeah if anyone is interested act fast. While it may be priced at 800 credits after this week it will actually cost you roughly $15 to actually get it. Because reasons.
Smallest amount of credits you can buy is 750 ($7.99) and the second smallest is 1500 ($14.99).
edit- or just download Frostfall which is literally the same thing.
Somehow I think this is just Bethesda trying to get any kind of positive press for their Creation Club nonsense for once and also trying to hook people into their new money-making scheme.
Which, you know, is interesting considering one of Bethesda's terms for Creation Club content is supposed to be that you can't submit an existing mod. It is of interest that this is where we are right now. I have found myself interested in this and what it is that it means.
All right, people. It is not a gerbil. It is not a hamster. It is not a guinea pig. It is a death rabbit. Death. Rabbit. Say it with me, now.
But that's fine as long as free mods still exist and that the creators they chose are happy with the arrangement. If it was the same person who made Frostfall who made Survival Mode then great, Frostfall is really good and it's nice that they are getting recognition and money. Even if Frostfall never got updated after this it would be fine because it works well as it is.
The entire problem has been their implementation on how they get installed and how you have to pay for them.
Maybe chesko just got hired to do the full mod, and is free to continue porting updates to the base Frostfall?
If the choice is "Here is Frostfall which is still unfinished, or get the paid mod with a bunch of extra features and a proper UI", then that is pretty terrible and contradicts a bunch of stuff they said in the past.
There isn't anything they can do about their current crop of games, but future titles? Why not?
On top of that, to make things even more insidious, they typically don't release the modding tools for their games until a couple months after launch. The vast majority of their sales would be done by the time anyone realizes they're not releasing mod tools.
edit- On a different note though. The one thing I do find completely fucking reprehensible is the use of micro-transaction FunBux. That is complete and utter garbage. No matter what game it appears in. That practice is pure, unadulterated greed made manifest.
Funbux are an obfuscation layer to remove you from the actual value of money, especially if its been sitting on your account for a few months.
Its easier to get someone to spend 3 dollars of funbux on something stupid, than it is to get them to spend 3 bucks directly on something stupid.
I would not call frostfall on SE finished after playing the mod on oldrim. Night and day difference in clarity of what is going on and general usability, but a lot of that is from not having SKSE and Skyui access. I honestly haven't played the new survival mode so I don't know how much of that if any is UI integrated, but I would certainly say Frostfall on oldrim is a lot more usable and in a lot better shape that Frostfall on Skyrim SE.
Not that they wouldn't do it, this is Zenimax being stupid about their previously successful properties so is entirely in their wheelhouse, but it would be shooting themselves in the foot.
This is exactly a fear I have expressed in the recent patch, that Bethesda would release their next Elder Scrolls game, for example, and we all buy it because it's Elder Scrolls plus we all look forward to the awesome mods that will be created. They make vague claims about the Creation Kit, but hey meanwhile, the Creation Club is available right now and there are doodads you can buy right now so why not take a look?
I find it difficult to believe Bethesda would cut off mod support, not because they are the least bit virtuous, but because there would be mass outrage. However, I could totally see them holding it back just a little bit longer than usual to try and push not-mod sales.
As to the latter issue, having to purchase their currency in order to buy a not-mod is basically a guarantee that I will never purchase anything from them, even if somehow they do manage to come up with any interesting content.
Granted, Zenimax is clearly dumb enough to try, and they've dug themselves a deep enough hole that I don't think they see the incentive in trying to climb out.
All right, people. It is not a gerbil. It is not a hamster. It is not a guinea pig. It is a death rabbit. Death. Rabbit. Say it with me, now.
It's kind of crazy the logical leaps people make to criticize those who express worry that something they enjoy might be scaled back or taken away. I haven't seen a single post here mention 'being owed' anything, but let's be real here... modding in Bethesda games is about as intrinsic as shooting in a Call of Duty game. Mod-makers for years now have not only altered the games for different tastes, but they've improved the games and fixed gaping holes that Bethesda could give no fucks about patching themselves. Now Zenimax and Bethesda want a piece of that pie, and instead of trying to add to the modding community's efforts, they've shown repeatedly that they want to take the shortest path to cashing in on those efforts and the good will they've generated while expending the minimal amount of effort possible.
For example, the new Survival Mode for Skyrim: Special Edition is nothing more complicated than the one for Fallout 4. However, in FO4 it was free because at the time there was no way to make it a microtransaction, so of course slapping a price tag on this one is inevitable now that Creation Club is here. But wouldn't you know it? The Unofficial Patch, as well as another guy who made his own mod, have had to patch Survival Mode because of course Bethesda half-assed it.
No one's debating (here at least) whether Bethesda has the right to do this. It's their game, they can do what they want. But fuck anyone who says that I don't have the right to complain about it.
Yeah, I remember all those Call of Duty games released on consoles where you couldn't shoot. Strange how they got such good reviews, these non-shooting shooters.
That's mildly funny, but his central point remains: a core expectation (at least for PC players) is that the mod community will come in and iron out all the bugs and stuff the (already full) game world full of newer things. It was a huge part of Morrowwind, Oblivion, Fallout 3, Skyrim, and Fallout 4.
To have a Bethesda game without the community of free mods going gangbusters would be... well.... odd. A lessening of the experience. and since the experience, at it's core, isn't combat or magic or (god don't we know it) story, but instead is exploration, being able to continually explore newer creations is a pretty core component to the whole "thing."
I get that they are in business to make money, and there's probably a good way to monetize the modular aspect of their games, especially if there's a quality bar. I wasn't super against the paid mods thing when it debuted. But these moves and the way they were rolled out understandably give some folks concerns about the direction of where things are headed.
On the other hand, I don't owe it to Bethesda to keep buying their games. I haven't bought FO4, for various reasons, and at this rate, I'm likely to not buy the next Elder Scrolls either.
I mean, I can see it going that way very easily. And that might make it so that I never play another Bethesda game. FO4 is pretty terrible as it is with consolitis.
No. Most of the complaining is over how badly the thing has been implemented even if people were interested in buying those creations (though it's getting better), and also concern about what might happen in the future based on these trends.