deck diversity at high levels is absolutely a problem and it's one that the MWL was intended to address, with a degree of success that varies depending on who you ask; most people would say that Faust needs to be on there but I'd say, maybe, but if you added Faust there wouldn't be a huge shift in the meta, you'd just see people cut the clone chips (or whatever) from their Whizzard decks*, much like what happened with NBN rush decks--they didn't stop putting three Astros in, they just cut three other influence because none of it was necessary anyway
FFG also has historically also had problems with playtesting; I'm not privy to the playtesting messageboard, so I don't know if it's a problem with the playtesters just not being any good at it, or there not being enough of them, or if the devteam just doesn't listen to them
if forced to guess I'd say it's probably some combination of the latter two--I have a hard time believing that they selected a bunch of people who are both very interested in netrunner and very bad at netrunner
further, Damon Stone has a demonstrable history of statements to the effect that the playerbase just doesn't know how to deckbuild and that the strongest decks aren't actually that; it stands to reason that he would hold a similar position on playtester feedback (that is, that he knows better for whatever reason)
now, all that said, it ultimately comes down to what your threshold is for playing against the top decks, and what's more, you can use that information to your advantage, since Whizzard still has bad matchups (this is the main reason I've been able to take jinteki PE past the cut at multiple store championships, for example)
*
this actually speaks to what I think is the bigger problem with netrunner competitive play right now, which is that there doesn't seem to be any serious appraisal of the root cause of consistency in runnerside deckbuilding. it's clear that it exists, but I'd say the reason for that is less because anarch is exceptionally powerful and more because the corp asset game is so good that by not playing the orange cards you're basically handicapping yourself (I know this is kind of a weird distinction since all cards are evaluated against each other but it seems important to me). this is partly due to the fact that the color pie is all jacked up right now (d4v1d is obviously a criminal card, for example--it eliminates risk in toto, on a temporary basis, like faerie but even moreso, but it went to the faction that's supposed to be about embracing risk in return for large rewards), but also because they printed a ton of powerful assets all at once without giving runners the tools they need to deal with them--anarchs have the best anti-asset game but like I said in my above post, asset decks still make up the majority of the corpside meta despite whizzard approaching 50% of the runnerside meta.
basically, they need to diversify corpside options so that asset spam decks aren't your best course to victory even in a whizzard-heavy meta (it's heartening to see some operation-heavy power shutdown combo decks see a bit of a resurgence, as much as I hate playing against them) and start fixing the runnerside color pie instead of playing MWL whack-a-mole.
DDOS is also a very, very clearly Criminal card (it's bypass! bypass is blue!) that was printed in Anarch. I could see EMP Device as blue as well, but I haven't seen a good enough use for that card yet anyway.
Anarch has always had a fairly strong card pool overall, it's just that until recently they haven't had draw or filtering without drawbacks, which meant they needed to include multiple copies of important cards and weren't guaranteed to find what they needed in time. The downside of Wyldside was solved with Adjusted Chronotype, and various other draw/filter engines have been added of late (IHW, Inject, Making an Entrance, Street Peddler) that speed up the game immensely. Faust then allowed Anarchs to say, well, now I don't need to put in multiple copies of various breakers to ensure I find them in order to actually run, and if I draw my redundant other cards I can use this cool breaker to not have them junk up my hand. D4v1D addressed one of the fixed-breaker weaknesses incredibly directly, and indirectly helped Faust by allowing you to get past high strength ice without tossing your whole hand.
No other faction has had their weaknesses addressed in such a direct way, save maybe Jinteki.
and I would actually say that adjusted chronotype itself is a Shaper card; manipulating your own clicks is very much part of the Shaper color pie and has been since at least the genesis cycle
I think I am going to try a new spin on my old HB Punitive Counterstrike deck now that Salem's Hospitality and Ravana 1.0 are out. I'll just cut my architects for wraparounds (it hurts it hurts but must be done) to fit in the Salem's, slot a couple of Jeeves to make for even more killing, and see how that goes with the extra taxing bioroids from this cycle (vikram is p great).
Should be fun to see how effective it is against anarch.
Sadly the MWL did gut my old deck list for this, but it'll be fine to pull out a new version of my regionals 2015 deck
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tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
yeah, and I honestly think that if Netrunner was being run by Wizards of the Coast, it would probably have a banlist in addition to the MWL
the issue is that the MWL and some other stuff that falls under the purview of organized play isn't actually handled by their organized play team, it's handled by the development team
and no disrespect to them, but that simply isn't part of their job and it's wrong to expect them to be able to make that kind of decision; that's a lesson that WotC already learned like twenty years ago, and it wasn't just an idle decision--developers and designers simply don't have the time it takes to analyze tournament data and make calls on what is warping the metagame in a way that results in negative play experiences
I mean, I can't see Damon (yet) admitting that it's something they can't handle. Their job - in this regard - should be to look at what the organized play finds most disruptive, and take it into account when building new cards so that that design or theme does not get repeated. Additionally, issue official errata once said cards have made it onto a given list, if deemed necessary (ie revisit notes made during playtesting and see if they suggested a more conservative approach). Instead, problems to the player base are not problems to them, because they are too far ahead in their card pool, and so reactive solutions such as the MWL make the most sense.
I don't think the Organized Play wing of FFG is nearly as dominant as the Design wing though, which makes total sense - that's the focus of the company. The OrgPlay part developed because it had to, due to the popularity and the public demand for such a thing, and as such isn't as firmly entrenched or powerful enough to make demands or changes to these cards, nor do they have probably enough experience to argue for that power. Magic has had years, and the OrgPlay component of their company is far more influential.
Does anyone have some kind of... decent guide to Netrunner? Like, I've decided to keep the game, and I like it a lot, but other than knowing the rules I have no idea what a good strategy is.
Does anyone have some kind of... decent guide to Netrunner? Like, I've decided to keep the game, and I like it a lot, but other than knowing the rules I have no idea what a good strategy is.
Have a look at the first couple posts of the thread in CF is one place I'd recommend starting!
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Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
stimhack.com is a good resource for Getting Gud at Netrunner
Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
basically it's like Pandemic: Legacy
so the box allows for two people to play a series of games which tell a story, and presumably wins/losses will contribute to that in some way, and there will also be other things that affect the games in some way? basically you play a series of games with some rules that change as you play, and stuff like that
hard to say exactly since they didn't show any of the actual content but it seems neat
oh it will also have cards that will be legal for standard play as well, which is nice
I finally have a copy of that campaign expansion coming and I bought one of the deluxe ones
Wanna get back into this game real bad
Unfortunately the two other expansions I had already bought have been cycled out, I guess?
So I'm down to pretty much just the core set again
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Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
yep. the first rotation finally happened, so the first two cycles of small expansions are no longer legal for tournament play; most regular netrunner meetups use the same card pool
also FFG did a weird thing where some cards in the core set were rotated and some cards in the first two cycles were actually not, because they are planning on doing a Revised Core Set (which most folks are calling core 2.0), which will not have any new cards in it, just cards that have already been printed
Anybody have any advice on like, core tenants of deckbuilding?
This is basically the only deckbuilding game I've ever played and I still have trouble getting down the sorts of things I should be thinking about
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Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
if you're the runner:
1) decide how you're going to aggress. this is really about what faction you want to play, and it informs all your other choices. one example would be to plan on hitting R&D hard with indexing and maker's eye, and a standard software suite, in which case you'd play Shaper. this is the most important decision, as it determines what breakers you pick to create your win condition.
2) decide on what your economy looks like. are you going to play Magnum Opus, or something more burst-y, with Career Fair, Daily Casts, Aesop's Pawnshop, etc.? this is also when you would decide what kind of card draw you want. so, you might run Opus, Sure Gamble, Diesel, Dirty Laundry, and nothing else, or you might want something faster/flashier and go for Career Fair/Earthrise Hotel/Daily Casts/Aesop's Pawnshop/Cache/Deuces Wild.
3) add utility. does your deck lose automatically to anything, and can you fix that with a couple tech cards like Film Critic? do you need to add Scrubber to deal with asset spam? maybe you want a couple Turning Wheels for some extra kick, or Notoriety to close out the game.
if you're the corp:
how are you getting to 7? if you're playing Jinteki this doesn't matter as much because you're mainly trying to kill them, but you need to be able to pressure the scoreboard to force disadvantageous runs. otherwise, you're probably taxing the runner with ice, assets, or a mix of both. start with 15 ice, 3 hedge funds, 10 agendas, then add things that contribute to your game plan. an HB Architects of Tomorrow deck needs lots of bioroids and money, plus Sandburg to make your ice spookier and Biotic Labor to close out the game. Weyland Gagarin wants lots and lots of assets, plus tour guide and something to punish the runner for being poor all the time.
Honestly the easiest step to improve 90% of first deck drafts is to finish it and then add about a third more economy cards. Which is obviously really reductive but the simple fact of the game is that money will never be truly uneccessary and most players get hung up filling their decks with cool toys over practical options.
As the runner decise which phase of the game you want to be strong in. Early game (corp is poor and has little ice) and late gamr (runner has a full rig and money) are both good times for the runner. Your deck should be able to run in all phases, but are you going to extend the early game by derezzing and trashing ice and stealing money from the corp? Or are you going to spend your resources into building your rig as fast as you can while still pressuring the corp?
Also as the runner you need to weigh of your deck is aiming towards quantity of access or quality of access. Quantity of access means you are getting into servers, a lot, and running a lot, which means cards that give you money for successful runs like dirty laundry, or make repeated runs cheaper like datasucker. Quality of runs means seeing lots of
cards, or manipulating what you see to get a better chance of agendas per run. Cards like HQ interface increase the quality of runs.
I like to run early game focused, quantity of access focused decks. So, aggressive criminal with emergency shutdowns, account siphons, desperado, etc. Yes my decks have a late game but it’s not where my focus is. You can mix elements of the above, but I find accounting for those two
things gives me a gameplan.
For the corp I typically decide how I want to win and then build deck around that, the three main ways being score 4 agendas, score 3 agendas, or flatline the runner.
Score 4 agendas looks to score 3/2 agendas out of hand using stuff like san san city grid or biotic labor, and looks to rush to mid game by putting out cheap end the rub ice of different types over their core servers.
Score 3 agendas looks to score, ideally, two 5/3 agendas and one 2/1 or 3/1 agenda. They need to build a proper remote server to do this so look to include larger, more taxing ice against the runner and create scoring windows by doing things like baiting the runner into expensive unproductive runs or trashing programs.
Flatline the runner looks to kill the runner. They can still win by agenda, but their agenda selection focuses on ones that make it easier to flatline the runner when scored and generally like to pack less ice that also facilitates killing the runner.
Again, this kind of thinking helps me build focused corp decks that have a gameplan instead of trying to do too many things at once.
Also this info is outdated as I haven’t played in a while but am hoping to get back in post rotation. But I’d imagine most of it still holds up,
yeah i was about to say, account siphon and desperado are both illegal now
Same concepts still apply, but yeah the specific cards will differ. Agressively running ice to make the corp rez it and then derezzing or trashing the ice keeps them poor, though less blatantly than account siphon. System Testing or Temujin Contract promotes running a lot, etc. (I think Temujin is getting banned though?)
I'm digging this up because it's been on my mind again lately, I've actually been playing it more now that I finally know someone that wants to play regularly
I feel like I'm finally getting into the mindset of it, I was playing with Little Stevie Cambridge out of the Terminal Directive set and I was combining Spear Phishing and economy cards with his ability to pull stuff out of the graveyard and I was just an unstoppable nightmare
The only bad part was where I had to have a 10 minute argument with the person I was playing with because he didn't believe I could just take the hits from his ice and keep going without strengthing up first to even be able to meet the ice
I really wanna get the Data & Destiny pack because that dude Adam sounds like he's super super fun, and I already have some cards for him I can't do anything with, I wanna play the campaign finally, I need to get the revised core as soon as it's back in print
I might even start going to a weekly at a local shop
God this game rulesssssss and I'm so happy finally getting my head around it after playing it very infrequently over the last like two years
This game is very good, and I wish I had more people to play it with
And also that there was a way to play it digitally that was a little cleaner than jinteki.net
Someday I hope someone makes a fully fledged, filled out version of Why I Run. It wouldn't work great for PvP, but I love the flavor it provides to the universe.
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Blue mapHello darkness, my old friend.Registered Userregular
I still play this game. The meta's in the best place it's been in a long, long time. Maybe ever tbh.
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But you're right that shouldn't be their job at all
and I would actually say that adjusted chronotype itself is a Shaper card; manipulating your own clicks is very much part of the Shaper color pie and has been since at least the genesis cycle
Should be fun to see how effective it is against anarch.
Sadly the MWL did gut my old deck list for this, but it'll be fine to pull out a new version of my regionals 2015 deck
I mean, I can't see Damon (yet) admitting that it's something they can't handle. Their job - in this regard - should be to look at what the organized play finds most disruptive, and take it into account when building new cards so that that design or theme does not get repeated. Additionally, issue official errata once said cards have made it onto a given list, if deemed necessary (ie revisit notes made during playtesting and see if they suggested a more conservative approach). Instead, problems to the player base are not problems to them, because they are too far ahead in their card pool, and so reactive solutions such as the MWL make the most sense.
I don't think the Organized Play wing of FFG is nearly as dominant as the Design wing though, which makes total sense - that's the focus of the company. The OrgPlay part developed because it had to, due to the popularity and the public demand for such a thing, and as such isn't as firmly entrenched or powerful enough to make demands or changes to these cards, nor do they have probably enough experience to argue for that power. Magic has had years, and the OrgPlay component of their company is far more influential.
Or just not enough really; external play-testers aren't full time and the internal pool is limited and have their foibles.
Does anyone have some kind of... decent guide to Netrunner? Like, I've decided to keep the game, and I like it a lot, but other than knowing the rules I have no idea what a good strategy is.
Have a look at the first couple posts of the thread in CF is one place I'd recommend starting!
http://stimhack.com/new-players/
from there, the Classic articles are a solid next step
and nothing beats playing it
I strongly recommend jumping in and playing on jinteki.net
Uh, probably dodge that while you're learning.
https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2016/7/12/2016-july-rules-update/
The latest expansion...adds a campaign?
I don't understand
so the box allows for two people to play a series of games which tell a story, and presumably wins/losses will contribute to that in some way, and there will also be other things that affect the games in some way? basically you play a series of games with some rules that change as you play, and stuff like that
hard to say exactly since they didn't show any of the actual content but it seems neat
oh it will also have cards that will be legal for standard play as well, which is nice
Good gravy.
Like their official post indicates that you pick a pack at the start and then you're locked into that forever
If you want to play a different path of the campaign, does that mean you have to rebuy the expansion?
probably? but it's hard to say for sure
the company that does the Legacy games has sold recharge kits for their games so they can be replayed for less money
I don't know whether FFG will do the same
(I'm really excited for this).
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
Steam ID
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Wanna get back into this game real bad
Unfortunately the two other expansions I had already bought have been cycled out, I guess?
So I'm down to pretty much just the core set again
also FFG did a weird thing where some cards in the core set were rotated and some cards in the first two cycles were actually not, because they are planning on doing a Revised Core Set (which most folks are calling core 2.0), which will not have any new cards in it, just cards that have already been printed
they've also implemented a ban/restricted list
post-rotation Netrunner is a very different game
people are trying some other things to play without him
I just play Jinteki PE and install everything
This is basically the only deckbuilding game I've ever played and I still have trouble getting down the sorts of things I should be thinking about
1) decide how you're going to aggress. this is really about what faction you want to play, and it informs all your other choices. one example would be to plan on hitting R&D hard with indexing and maker's eye, and a standard software suite, in which case you'd play Shaper. this is the most important decision, as it determines what breakers you pick to create your win condition.
2) decide on what your economy looks like. are you going to play Magnum Opus, or something more burst-y, with Career Fair, Daily Casts, Aesop's Pawnshop, etc.? this is also when you would decide what kind of card draw you want. so, you might run Opus, Sure Gamble, Diesel, Dirty Laundry, and nothing else, or you might want something faster/flashier and go for Career Fair/Earthrise Hotel/Daily Casts/Aesop's Pawnshop/Cache/Deuces Wild.
3) add utility. does your deck lose automatically to anything, and can you fix that with a couple tech cards like Film Critic? do you need to add Scrubber to deal with asset spam? maybe you want a couple Turning Wheels for some extra kick, or Notoriety to close out the game.
if you're the corp:
how are you getting to 7? if you're playing Jinteki this doesn't matter as much because you're mainly trying to kill them, but you need to be able to pressure the scoreboard to force disadvantageous runs. otherwise, you're probably taxing the runner with ice, assets, or a mix of both. start with 15 ice, 3 hedge funds, 10 agendas, then add things that contribute to your game plan. an HB Architects of Tomorrow deck needs lots of bioroids and money, plus Sandburg to make your ice spookier and Biotic Labor to close out the game. Weyland Gagarin wants lots and lots of assets, plus tour guide and something to punish the runner for being poor all the time.
As the runner decise which phase of the game you want to be strong in. Early game (corp is poor and has little ice) and late gamr (runner has a full rig and money) are both good times for the runner. Your deck should be able to run in all phases, but are you going to extend the early game by derezzing and trashing ice and stealing money from the corp? Or are you going to spend your resources into building your rig as fast as you can while still pressuring the corp?
Also as the runner you need to weigh of your deck is aiming towards quantity of access or quality of access. Quantity of access means you are getting into servers, a lot, and running a lot, which means cards that give you money for successful runs like dirty laundry, or make repeated runs cheaper like datasucker. Quality of runs means seeing lots of
cards, or manipulating what you see to get a better chance of agendas per run. Cards like HQ interface increase the quality of runs.
I like to run early game focused, quantity of access focused decks. So, aggressive criminal with emergency shutdowns, account siphons, desperado, etc. Yes my decks have a late game but it’s not where my focus is. You can mix elements of the above, but I find accounting for those two
things gives me a gameplan.
For the corp I typically decide how I want to win and then build deck around that, the three main ways being score 4 agendas, score 3 agendas, or flatline the runner.
Score 4 agendas looks to score 3/2 agendas out of hand using stuff like san san city grid or biotic labor, and looks to rush to mid game by putting out cheap end the rub ice of different types over their core servers.
Score 3 agendas looks to score, ideally, two 5/3 agendas and one 2/1 or 3/1 agenda. They need to build a proper remote server to do this so look to include larger, more taxing ice against the runner and create scoring windows by doing things like baiting the runner into expensive unproductive runs or trashing programs.
Flatline the runner looks to kill the runner. They can still win by agenda, but their agenda selection focuses on ones that make it easier to flatline the runner when scored and generally like to pack less ice that also facilitates killing the runner.
Again, this kind of thinking helps me build focused corp decks that have a gameplan instead of trying to do too many things at once.
Also this info is outdated as I haven’t played in a while but am hoping to get back in post rotation. But I’d imagine most of it still holds up,
http://www.audioentropy.com/
Same concepts still apply, but yeah the specific cards will differ. Agressively running ice to make the corp rez it and then derezzing or trashing the ice keeps them poor, though less blatantly than account siphon. System Testing or Temujin Contract promotes running a lot, etc. (I think Temujin is getting banned though?)
I feel like I'm finally getting into the mindset of it, I was playing with Little Stevie Cambridge out of the Terminal Directive set and I was combining Spear Phishing and economy cards with his ability to pull stuff out of the graveyard and I was just an unstoppable nightmare
The only bad part was where I had to have a 10 minute argument with the person I was playing with because he didn't believe I could just take the hits from his ice and keep going without strengthing up first to even be able to meet the ice
I really wanna get the Data & Destiny pack because that dude Adam sounds like he's super super fun, and I already have some cards for him I can't do anything with, I wanna play the campaign finally, I need to get the revised core as soon as it's back in print
I might even start going to a weekly at a local shop
God this game rulesssssss and I'm so happy finally getting my head around it after playing it very infrequently over the last like two years
And also that there was a way to play it digitally that was a little cleaner than jinteki.net
http://www.audioentropy.com/
Someday I hope someone makes a fully fledged, filled out version of Why I Run. It wouldn't work great for PvP, but I love the flavor it provides to the universe.
I don't think I've played since rotation
I need to rotate my collection and then learn how to build decks again, I've been hankering to play
I have won...once
Scumbag Stevie Cambridge is a real motherfucker
Though the one time I won, I won real fast and real hard, because Scorched Earth is also a motherfucker
I miss this game