If the game really emphasized different character combinations depending on the map or mode the World Cup wouldn’t have been Mercy, Tracer and 76 all the time.
This is what Blizzard has created and pushed forward, they don’t get to play dumb or act tough when someone does the same thing only in a non pre approved fashion. That the guy has a 58% winrate shows he’s not a detriment to the team and was effective, either by being a good Torb or so incensing his team they achieved anime power up and won despite the guy.
All it shows is that he lost the game for his team only 42% of the time. If he plays 100 games that's 220 reports. Not even factoring in to what extent he forced the entire team to play around him even in the games he won or to what extent he got carried in those games.
People bring up Soldier but the fact is that Soldier is versatile. He can work in death balls, he can work in dive comp, he works on all the maps, and he doesn't have any hard counters. He is almost always a decent pick and I think Soldier players who flip out when someone else picks Soldier first are rarer.
This is assuming, of course, that his character pick is the sole reason for his team's loss 42% of the time rather than random throwers, poor play from other teammates or just flat out being outplayed.
If the game really emphasized different character combinations depending on the map or mode the World Cup wouldn’t have been Mercy, Tracer and 76 all the time.
This is what Blizzard has created and pushed forward, they don’t get to play dumb or act tough when someone does the same thing only in a non pre approved fashion. That the guy has a 58% winrate shows he’s not a detriment to the team and was effective, either by being a good Torb or so incensing his team they achieved anime power up and won despite the guy.
All it shows is that he lost the game for his team only 42% of the time. If he plays 100 games that's 220 reports. Not even factoring in to what extent he forced the entire team to play around him even in the games he won or to what extent he got carried in those games.
People bring up Soldier but the fact is that Soldier is versatile. He can work in death balls, he can work in dive comp, he works on all the maps, and he doesn't have any hard counters. He is almost always a decent pick and I think Soldier players who flip out when someone else picks Soldier first are rarer.
Has anybody given any actual statistical proof that a poorly-played but appropriate character is a better choice than a well-played but ill-suited character?
+2
AxenMy avatar is Excalibur.Yes, the sword.Registered Userregular
edited November 2017
Yeah some characters are straight up designed to be, at the least, a decent pick anytime. Generally designed to be the type of characters that are good for new players to jump in to without much fuss.
Others are designed to be a good picks for certain maps or good picks for certain hero combos or just good counters to certain characters.
Point is, it is just the nature of the beast. You're going to have certain characters generally always being good picks.
That said, I think it is a bit disingenuous to say the Torb dude lost the game for his team 42% of the time. Likewise it also doesn't make sense to say his Torb won the game for his team either. That said, a 58% winrate IMHO points to him being fairly exceptional as Torb to the point where I doubt he was ever really a true detriment to his team. Certainly not in a fashion I've personal witnessed from other OTPs who not only never changed heroes, but weren't very great with their chosen hero either.
Has anybody given any actual statistical proof that a poorly-played but appropriate character is a better choice than a well-played but ill-suited character?
Honestly I think this is a good facet of the problem.
I mean your actually good player on a poor pick can usually still play the objective and defend points compared to the poorly played correct pick. Like Widowmaker might be the right choice for the map/enemy comp, but if the player sucks ass at sniping she isn't going to be doing much good.
Axen on
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
0
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
It's not the player's fault for preferring or being good with a character who is deemed conditional over a character who is deemed versatile. Blizzard has put them there and tweaked things to make one more viable than the other. Maybe instead of punishing the off-meta conditional character you tweak the versatile one so he is also more conditional, that way you have more of a rock paper scissor situation than always Mercy/Rein/76/Tracer + whatever other two are deigned good enough to not be crapped on for the season.
Is there a group of y'all that play on PC on the regular with like a discord server or somesuch? I am so sick of randos.
There's a link to the list in the OP. Most nights can usually get a full group going. Range of level and abilities so we mostly just play Quick Play together.
Any discord or something? I always feel weird randomly trying to friend people off of spreadsheets.
I have three PA forums related Discords that have Overwatch channels that no one uses. There's the Social channel in Battle.net but no one uses that either. We just invite each other in-game when we log in and go from there.
Mind if I friend you on battle.net and get in on that action? You're not listed in the OP's link.
0
AxenMy avatar is Excalibur.Yes, the sword.Registered Userregular
edited November 2017
Actually in regards to the Torb Dude I can easily picture this scenario leading up to his banning.
Clearly he wins more than he loses, but for every game lost I can see a few teammates blaming the Torb instead of anything else.
I mean we all know that a lot can lead to losing. Maybe your team wasn't communicating or playing the objective well or the other team was just better. Cause Lord knows if your team loses it certainly cannot possibly be your fault. So players find a scapegoat in the Torb Dude.
Axen on
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
Actually in regards to the Torb Dude I can easily picture this scenario leading up to his banning.
Clearly he wins more than he loses, but for every game lost I can see a few teammates blaming the Torb instead of anything else.
I mean we all know that a lot can lead to losing. Maybe your team wasn't communicating or playing the objective well or the other team was just better. Cause Lord knows if your team loses it certainly cannot possibly be your fault. So players find a scapegoat in the Torb Dude.
He's also at the GM level though, where the population is tiny, so more often than not, he's going to be matched against significantly worse players. It's common for the top people to have win rates in the 60%+ range.
ArcTangent on
0
Orphanerivers of redthat run to seaRegistered Userregular
It's not the player's fault for preferring or being good with a character who is deemed conditional over a character who is deemed versatile. Blizzard has put them there and tweaked things to make one more viable than the other. Maybe instead of punishing the off-meta conditional character you tweak the versatile one so he is also more conditional, that way you have more of a rock paper scissor situation than always Mercy/Rein/76/Tracer + whatever other two are deigned good enough to not be crapped on for the season.
Nobody actually knows what behavior was involved in the torb player's banning
Obviously the torb player won't believe they did anything wrong but there have been countless examples of league/overwatch players who claimed to be innocent and turned out they were just literal fonts of asshole behavior
You keep operating off the assumption that the torb player can't have possibly done anything toxic when in fact there is a lot of room for the player to have done something that was banworthy other than just "play a character people don't like on their team"
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AxenMy avatar is Excalibur.Yes, the sword.Registered Userregular
edited November 2017
The dude is a streamer and is a pretty chill and nice guy by all accounts. He's already playing again (unbanned) and telling his fans to just drop the whole banning topic thing.
edit- He was banned by a bot FYI, once people got involved it was overturned.
Axen on
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
The dude is a streamer and is a pretty chill and nice guy by all accounts. He's already playing again (unbanned) and telling his fans to just drop the whole banning topic thing.
edit- He was banned by a bot FYI, once people got involved it was overturned.
Do you have a source on that? All I've seen is a generic "We've reviewed recent stuff, and everything stands as disruptive to other players."
It's not the player's fault for preferring or being good with a character who is deemed conditional over a character who is deemed versatile. Blizzard has put them there and tweaked things to make one more viable than the other. Maybe instead of punishing the off-meta conditional character you tweak the versatile one so he is also more conditional, that way you have more of a rock paper scissor situation than always Mercy/Rein/76/Tracer + whatever other two are deigned good enough to not be crapped on for the season.
Competitive is not the place to play heros just because you like them. If you are not doing work you need to switch.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
+1
AxenMy avatar is Excalibur.Yes, the sword.Registered Userregular
edited November 2017
The guy is back to streaming on his original account. I don't think the ban lasted long since there didn't seem to be much of a break in his video posting.
edit- Mind you this was one particularly odd case. I'm pretty sure the other bans are still very much in effect.
edit 2- Blizz has said that the people banned weren't banned just because they were OTP, but for also for other "toxic behavior". This Torb Dude, from what I've seen, is a friendly enough sort. Doesn't berate his team or say sexist/racist/derogatory things. He doesn't intentionally throw matches. Or other things I'd consider toxic. He just likes playing Torb and he is pretty good with him.
Now granted I certainly am in the "you should switch heroes based on the circumstances of the match" camp, but I also don't think you should ban people for being OTP if that is the only complaint you can level against them.
Axen on
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
It's not the player's fault for preferring or being good with a character who is deemed conditional over a character who is deemed versatile. Blizzard has put them there and tweaked things to make one more viable than the other. Maybe instead of punishing the off-meta conditional character you tweak the versatile one so he is also more conditional, that way you have more of a rock paper scissor situation than always Mercy/Rein/76/Tracer + whatever other two are deigned good enough to not be crapped on for the season.
Competitive is not the place to play heros just because you like them. If you are not doing work you need to switch.
Off-meta and niche pickers are hard to have a policy for.
On the one hand, there are 6 people on your team, and certain roles must, or should, be filled between them. What this means is, there's only room for 1, mayyyyyyybe 2 players to pick weird. And once someone does, the rest of the team should pick extra regular to support that person's pick. And, well, sometimes people get tired of being your cheer squad, y'know? Especially when they check your career profile and see you have a history of forcing your team to pick around you (ie, spamming niche heroes). Sometimes people their turn to pick Sombra too, or at least NOT pick Mercy. So there's an element of what you might call self-centredness in deciding to be a OTP or off-meta picker*.
On the other hand, exactly because people want variety, there should be some generous room to allow people to pick weird. Life is too short to pick Soldier every game. Even if the team wants a reliable hit-scan every game.
I think the onus is on Blizzard to keep tinkering away with the game to make more comps and picks viable. It kinda sucks right now though, where at least half the roster is some degree of 'niche', or at least forces the team's hand.
*This is coming from a notorious Sombra/DF picker. I'm not innocent here either.
I haven't been recording much lately, but I finally got enough to do a Reinhardt video. I've been playing him a bunch lately, he's so darn fun. https://youtu.be/S62gVq2dWhE
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
I tend to favor Pharah because I want to push my rocket accuracy as high as I can, but at the same time I can practice that in deathmatch all I want. I prefer to pick whatever I think will help the situation in quick match or comp. That said I currently only play Lucio as healer because he's the only one I like.
Steam Profile | My Art | NID: DarkMecha (SW-4787-9571-8977) | PSN: DarkMecha
I haven't been recording much lately, but I finally got enough to do a Reinhardt video. I've been playing him a bunch lately, he's so darn fun. https://youtu.be/S62gVq2dWhE
Dude that is some awesome Reining. I can never land my charges!
'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
I haven't been recording much lately, but I finally got enough to do a Reinhardt video. I've been playing him a bunch lately, he's so darn fun. https://youtu.be/S62gVq2dWhE
Dude that is some awesome Reining. I can never land my charges!
Ugh...
It's so cursed. Sometimes I just SPLAT anything. Charge right in an get exactly the squishy I want, or have exactly the time for the opposing Zarya's bubble to pop when I hit the wall, or, or, or....
And sometimes it seems like I'm made of teflon and end up at the other and of the map, alone..
+1
miscellaneousinsanitygrass grows, birds fly, sun shines,and brother, i hurt peopleRegistered Userregular
I think a big part of successful Rein charging is just expecting that you will likely miss, and positioning your charge so that you'll still end up where you can pressure the enemy even if you do.
So like, a lot of times if I'm in an enclosed space with an enemy, and they're standing near an exit, I won't charge at them, I'll charge at the edge of the exit nearest them. Lots of people see a charge coming and immediately dodge for the exit, so you can get an easy pin that way. But if they don't fall for it it's fine, because even if you don't land the charge you'll bounce them away a little, and now you're between them and their escape route, so you can just hammer them to death.
Like the second clip in my vid I mostly just included because lol I totally lost the Mercy in a small enclosed room, but the reason I charged wasn't to hit D.Va at all, she just happened to walk in front of me. I knew I was going to charge the moment I saw Mercy go into the side room. Charging into the wall put me between her and her tank, and that's a positioning win, because at that point D.Va can't save her.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
I think a big part of successful Rein charging is just expecting that you will likely miss, and positioning your charge so that you'll still end up where you can pressure the enemy even if you do.
So like, a lot of times if I'm in an enclosed space with an enemy, and they're standing near an exit, I won't charge at them, I'll charge at the edge of the exit nearest them. Lots of people see a charge coming and immediately dodge for the exit, so you can get an easy pin that way. But if they don't fall for it it's fine, because even if you don't land the charge you'll bounce them away a little, and now you're between them and their escape route, so you can just hammer them to death.
Like the second clip in my vid I mostly just included because lol I totally lost the Mercy in a small enclosed room, but the reason I charged wasn't to hit D.Va at all, she just happened to walk in front of me. I knew I was going to charge the moment I saw Mercy go into the side room. Charging into the wall put me between her and her tank, and that's a positioning win, because at that point D.Va can't save her.
opposite is true too. Even if you get a kill a charge that puts you out of position or in a situation where you're likely to die isn't worth it
Because I had three games before that which were all utterly miserable affairs.
ArcTangent on
+2
H3KnucklesBut we decide which is rightand which is an illusion.Registered Userregular
edited November 2017
I won a Deathmatch on Eichenwald as Reaper today, pretty much the entire match was a back-and-forth between me (skulking around the indoors areas) and a Widowmaker (posting up on that chokepoint overpass) for 1st and 2nd place, with the player in 3rd trailing by a large margin. However, POTG went to another player who was also playing Widowmaker. As it was playing I commented in general chat:
I've never really played Reaper much before today, but I had several good matches in Deathmatch and 3v3 elims with him. I tried a run as Soldier 76 in Deathmatch, but kept watching other people (usually snipers) sneak the killing blow in on people I'd been working down. DM definitely seems to favor characters with more bursty damage, at least in my experience.
BeezelThere was no agreement little morsel..Registered Userregular
From the way I've had it explained to me I figure they could go a long way into figuring out how not to make wins mean everything in Comp. SR kinda functionally means nothing since it only works on wins from what I understand and has nothing to do with stats. I could be wrong? I'm only going by anecdotal accounts but I think it's interesting it works that way if true.
If you guys play in the evening, we usually get a group going almost every evening (sundays not so often). We usually play 8 or 9 'til 11ish and mostly have nice organized games.
We do get salty occasionally but it's a million times more pleasant than solo queue. Just send me a friend invite, Kana#12104
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
+1
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
I need to start keeping a list of the maps that pop up in a week as I rotate quick play and mystery heroes, because yesterday it was nonstop 2CP crap save for a backfill into defending kings row (where the enemy got 2 junkrats, 2 bastions a mercy and a Reinhardt so fuck you balance) and a Junkertown attack that fell apart in the final push because a 3-stack left like pouty Captain Americas.
I would say since the map dropped and after that first week where it was an exclusive option, I have played Junkertown probably 20 Times, which is just an absolute shame because it’s a great map.
From the way I've had it explained to me I figure they could go a long way into figuring out how not to make wins mean everything in Comp. SR kinda functionally means nothing since it only works on wins from what I understand and has nothing to do with stats. I could be wrong? I'm only going by anecdotal accounts but I think it's interesting it works that way if true.
When you win you gain sr, when you lose your sr will go down. Those are hard rules.
The amount of fluctuation depends on the relative cumulative sr between the two teams. So if you are on the higher sr team and win, you gain fewer sr than if you were the lower sr team and won. The converse(or maybe it’s the same, maybe I’ll do some trigonometry later to figure out the logic pattern lol probably not) is true if you lose. So if you are the higher sr team and lose you drop more sr than if you were the lower sr team and lost.
Your personal performance stats do matter but to a much lesser extent, probably a couple sr one way or the other each match. You are compared to the other players that played the characters you did. So if you spent the majority of the match on fire as Winston, you’d see an increase in sr generally.
Or at least that’s how it’s supposed to work! Blizzard isn’t fully forthcoming with their formula but this is how I understand it to work.
I like air dueling other Pharahs because I'm a Tribes nut.
Aside from lobbing the occasional random rocket at her, I try to avoid it in most situations, because dueling Pharahs become such easy targets for people on the ground, which can lead to pretty random outcomes. I might go for it if the enemy Pharah seems to be causing more trouble for my team than I'm doing to theirs, although in that situation I'd usually switch to a 76 or something.
The only exception is if the enemy Pharah moves so badly that I can reliably hit her without wasting much time, in which case I'm never leaving her alone until she switches.
In DM I've noticed Pharahs also generally just ignore each other, preferring to focus on easier pickings and/or bigger threats.
Posts
This is assuming, of course, that his character pick is the sole reason for his team's loss 42% of the time rather than random throwers, poor play from other teammates or just flat out being outplayed.
Has anybody given any actual statistical proof that a poorly-played but appropriate character is a better choice than a well-played but ill-suited character?
Others are designed to be a good picks for certain maps or good picks for certain hero combos or just good counters to certain characters.
Point is, it is just the nature of the beast. You're going to have certain characters generally always being good picks.
That said, I think it is a bit disingenuous to say the Torb dude lost the game for his team 42% of the time. Likewise it also doesn't make sense to say his Torb won the game for his team either. That said, a 58% winrate IMHO points to him being fairly exceptional as Torb to the point where I doubt he was ever really a true detriment to his team. Certainly not in a fashion I've personal witnessed from other OTPs who not only never changed heroes, but weren't very great with their chosen hero either.
Honestly I think this is a good facet of the problem.
I mean your actually good player on a poor pick can usually still play the objective and defend points compared to the poorly played correct pick. Like Widowmaker might be the right choice for the map/enemy comp, but if the player sucks ass at sniping she isn't going to be doing much good.
Mind if I friend you on battle.net and get in on that action? You're not listed in the OP's link.
Clearly he wins more than he loses, but for every game lost I can see a few teammates blaming the Torb instead of anything else.
I mean we all know that a lot can lead to losing. Maybe your team wasn't communicating or playing the objective well or the other team was just better. Cause Lord knows if your team loses it certainly cannot possibly be your fault. So players find a scapegoat in the Torb Dude.
He's also at the GM level though, where the population is tiny, so more often than not, he's going to be matched against significantly worse players. It's common for the top people to have win rates in the 60%+ range.
Nobody actually knows what behavior was involved in the torb player's banning
Obviously the torb player won't believe they did anything wrong but there have been countless examples of league/overwatch players who claimed to be innocent and turned out they were just literal fonts of asshole behavior
You keep operating off the assumption that the torb player can't have possibly done anything toxic when in fact there is a lot of room for the player to have done something that was banworthy other than just "play a character people don't like on their team"
edit- He was banned by a bot FYI, once people got involved it was overturned.
Do you have a source on that? All I've seen is a generic "We've reviewed recent stuff, and everything stands as disruptive to other players."
Competitive is not the place to play heros just because you like them. If you are not doing work you need to switch.
edit- Mind you this was one particularly odd case. I'm pretty sure the other bans are still very much in effect.
edit 2- Blizz has said that the people banned weren't banned just because they were OTP, but for also for other "toxic behavior". This Torb Dude, from what I've seen, is a friendly enough sort. Doesn't berate his team or say sexist/racist/derogatory things. He doesn't intentionally throw matches. Or other things I'd consider toxic. He just likes playing Torb and he is pretty good with him.
Now granted I certainly am in the "you should switch heroes based on the circumstances of the match" camp, but I also don't think you should ban people for being OTP if that is the only complaint you can level against them.
Off-meta and niche pickers are hard to have a policy for.
On the one hand, there are 6 people on your team, and certain roles must, or should, be filled between them. What this means is, there's only room for 1, mayyyyyyybe 2 players to pick weird. And once someone does, the rest of the team should pick extra regular to support that person's pick. And, well, sometimes people get tired of being your cheer squad, y'know? Especially when they check your career profile and see you have a history of forcing your team to pick around you (ie, spamming niche heroes). Sometimes people their turn to pick Sombra too, or at least NOT pick Mercy. So there's an element of what you might call self-centredness in deciding to be a OTP or off-meta picker*.
On the other hand, exactly because people want variety, there should be some generous room to allow people to pick weird. Life is too short to pick Soldier every game. Even if the team wants a reliable hit-scan every game.
I think the onus is on Blizzard to keep tinkering away with the game to make more comps and picks viable. It kinda sucks right now though, where at least half the roster is some degree of 'niche', or at least forces the team's hand.
*This is coming from a notorious Sombra/DF picker. I'm not innocent here either.
hAmmONd IsnT A mAin TAnk
I need to start doing this.
Tbh, the worse you are at the game, the more reason you have to try to focus on only one or two characters to improve with.
Dude that is some awesome Reining. I can never land my charges!
Ugh...
It's so cursed. Sometimes I just SPLAT anything. Charge right in an get exactly the squishy I want, or have exactly the time for the opposing Zarya's bubble to pop when I hit the wall, or, or, or....
And sometimes it seems like I'm made of teflon and end up at the other and of the map, alone..
i wasn't about to risk it, being at 2 hp
But you were going to risk taking four random shots at a Winston as you passed by?
So like, a lot of times if I'm in an enclosed space with an enemy, and they're standing near an exit, I won't charge at them, I'll charge at the edge of the exit nearest them. Lots of people see a charge coming and immediately dodge for the exit, so you can get an easy pin that way. But if they don't fall for it it's fine, because even if you don't land the charge you'll bounce them away a little, and now you're between them and their escape route, so you can just hammer them to death.
Like the second clip in my vid I mostly just included because lol I totally lost the Mercy in a small enclosed room, but the reason I charged wasn't to hit D.Va at all, she just happened to walk in front of me. I knew I was going to charge the moment I saw Mercy go into the side room. Charging into the wall put me between her and her tank, and that's a positioning win, because at that point D.Va can't save her.
opposite is true too. Even if you get a kill a charge that puts you out of position or in a situation where you're likely to die isn't worth it
Was it the one where I inexplicably got PotG as Widow for randomly shooting into a crowd and hitting someone in the head?
Because I had three games before that which were all utterly miserable affairs.
I've never really played Reaper much before today, but I had several good matches in Deathmatch and 3v3 elims with him. I tried a run as Soldier 76 in Deathmatch, but kept watching other people (usually snipers) sneak the killing blow in on people I'd been working down. DM definitely seems to favor characters with more bursty damage, at least in my experience.
"...only mights and maybes."
I'm playing Quickplay and don't even want people to switch. Just try to, I dunno, escort or contest the payload. But nope!
So events only I think for a bit.
We do get salty occasionally but it's a million times more pleasant than solo queue. Just send me a friend invite, Kana#12104
I would say since the map dropped and after that first week where it was an exclusive option, I have played Junkertown probably 20 Times, which is just an absolute shame because it’s a great map.
When you win you gain sr, when you lose your sr will go down. Those are hard rules.
The amount of fluctuation depends on the relative cumulative sr between the two teams. So if you are on the higher sr team and win, you gain fewer sr than if you were the lower sr team and won. The converse(or maybe it’s the same, maybe I’ll do some trigonometry later to figure out the logic pattern lol probably not) is true if you lose. So if you are the higher sr team and lose you drop more sr than if you were the lower sr team and lost.
Your personal performance stats do matter but to a much lesser extent, probably a couple sr one way or the other each match. You are compared to the other players that played the characters you did. So if you spent the majority of the match on fire as Winston, you’d see an increase in sr generally.
Or at least that’s how it’s supposed to work! Blizzard isn’t fully forthcoming with their formula but this is how I understand it to work.
Aside from lobbing the occasional random rocket at her, I try to avoid it in most situations, because dueling Pharahs become such easy targets for people on the ground, which can lead to pretty random outcomes. I might go for it if the enemy Pharah seems to be causing more trouble for my team than I'm doing to theirs, although in that situation I'd usually switch to a 76 or something.
The only exception is if the enemy Pharah moves so badly that I can reliably hit her without wasting much time, in which case I'm never leaving her alone until she switches.
In DM I've noticed Pharahs also generally just ignore each other, preferring to focus on easier pickings and/or bigger threats.