Nobody is legitimate and everyone is, might makes right, it's where people believe the power lies that it lies, etc etc, that's literally the point of the entire narrative.
Dany and Cersei are just as bad as each other, may they both burn each other down!
Nobody is legitimate and everyone is, might makes right, it's where people believe the power lies that it lies, etc etc, that's literally the point of the entire narrative.
Dany and Cersei are just as bad as each other, may they both burn each other down!
No, they aren't.
Sure they are! Both are using violence to put themselves on the throne based on a personal belief they have the right to sit there.
On a personal level, one is more cruel than the other. On a national level? Doesn't really make much difference, ask any of those boys in the Lannister Army she turned to ash if it makes any difference to them, and they're both of questionable sanity as well.
The narrative likes Dany because Season 7 is a bit of exciting fun but actually pretty hacky, but really? For most people? Dany's war of liberation is just one more war that they have to endure. And Dany didn't have to cross, nobody made her, she chose to kick this off. The deaths are on her.
Nobody is legitimate and everyone is, might makes right, it's where people believe the power lies that it lies, etc etc, that's literally the point of the entire narrative.
Dany and Cersei are just as bad as each other, may they both burn each other down!
No, they aren't.
Sure they are! Both are using violence to put themselves on the throne based on a personal belief they have the right to sit there.
On a personal level, one is more cruel than the other. On a national level? Doesn't really make much difference, ask any of those boys in the Lannister Army she turned to ash if it makes any difference to them, and they're both of questionable sanity as well.
The narrative likes Dany because Season 7 is a bit of exciting fun but actually pretty hacky, but really? For most people? Dany's war of liberation is just one more war that they have to endure. And Dany didn't have to cross, nobody made her, she chose to kick this off. The deaths are on her.
By Westeros standards Dany is an average ruler, Cersei is as bad as the Mad King. Dany frees slaves, and tries her best to make the right choice for her people - Cersei wants to conquer and kill, even in the face of monsters like the White Walkers. They have some similar traits, since they are strong women leaders who need to be brutal to stay alive but they're not evil twins by any stretch.
Dany is actually restrained to what she could be doing with her dragons, if Cersei was in her position she'd have torched Dany's home city and slaughtered everyone on the first day. And of course she'd use her dragons on the Lannister army, any leader would be fool to leave that trump card off the field in war. The Lannister's aren't above using pseudo-WMD's themselves to win wars, that's how they won against Stannis, and how Cersei destroyed the Faith of the Seven.
It's just that it's hard to take her seriously while Linda Hamilton still exists.
Don't get me wrong, Emilia Clarke is fine (also fine, damn), but Hamilton infused that role so powerfully that anything short of a revelation is going to come out looking a little like silly cosplay (which is ironic, considering how much silly cosplay there is for Clarke's other character).
And Lena Heady channeled Hamilton enough in the TV show to avoid this unfortunate comparison.
How well known is it that Cersei masterminded the Green Trial/Destruction of the Sept of Balor/whatever the hell it's caused? Obviously everyone knows she benefited from it, but do people know she's responsible?
Because from an aspect of what the Westerosi nobility think, Cersei would be much worse. Dany burned alive one noble lord and his heir. Cersei killed the sitting queen, virtually all of House Tyrell, including the Warden of the South (which apparently Mace Tyrell apparently us, along with being a council member), as well as the entirety of the church leadership (which admittedly was increasingly at odds with the nobility in King's Landing at least). Cersei ensured every noble in the city of her rank or higher was dead, with the exception of her son the King (whom she drove to suicide, though I doubt that's common knowledge).
In a more "realistic" setting, Cersei probably would've been stabbed in a hallway the week after the Sept was destroyed and left to bleed out by one of the countless royal staff who had regular access to her or the areas she crossed in (and had been paid off, if that was even necessary), leading to a power grab race between the middle and lower nobility in the city (that would've already started as soon as House Tyrell was wiped out and the King's death was announced). Of course, in that same setting, the whole scheme might've failed in the first place given how unstable wildfire is as well as its relative rarity as a substance, or word would've gotten out. There's a reason why Feudal Europe was characterized a lot more by successful assassinations and lot less by "decapitation bombings" in major cities.
How well known is it that Cersei masterminded the Green Trial/Destruction of the Sept of Balor/whatever the hell it's caused? Obviously everyone knows she benefited from it, but do people know she's responsible?
We have no clue especially with the time lapsing that happened in the last few scenes of that season.
A lot of the nobles that would be quickest to blame Cersei probably were at the trial hoping to see her go down. Others would have gotten out of King's Landing like Olenna Tyrell did. There may not be much if any overlap between people who suspect Cersei and people still in King's Landing.
It's just that it's hard to take her seriously while Linda Hamilton still exists.
Don't get me wrong, Emilia Clarke is fine (also fine, damn), but Hamilton infused that role so powerfully that anything short of a revelation is going to come out looking a little like silly cosplay (which is ironic, considering how much silly cosplay there is for Clarke's other character).
And Lena Heady channeled Hamilton enough in the TV show to avoid this unfortunate comparison.
I liked Clarke's Sarah as someone for the next generation, and not directly competing against Hamilton - something I think they did deliberately because she's not the right actress to compete with her head to head like that. This goes into personal taste, as well. Among the actresses who played the character she's at the bottom acting wise.
Headey was definitely superior to Clarke, no question.
How well known is it that Cersei masterminded the Green Trial/Destruction of the Sept of Balor/whatever the hell it's caused? Obviously everyone knows she benefited from it, but do people know she's responsible?
Because from an aspect of what the Westerosi nobility think, Cersei would be much worse. Dany burned alive one noble lord and his heir. Cersei killed the sitting queen, virtually all of House Tyrell, including the Warden of the South (which apparently Mace Tyrell apparently us, along with being a council member), as well as the entirety of the church leadership (which admittedly was increasingly at odds with the nobility in King's Landing at least). Cersei ensured every noble in the city of her rank or higher was dead, with the exception of her son the King (whom she drove to suicide, though I doubt that's common knowledge).
In a more "realistic" setting, Cersei probably would've been stabbed in a hallway the week after the Sept was destroyed and left to bleed out by one of the countless royal staff who had regular access to her or the areas she crossed in (and had been paid off, if that was even necessary), leading to a power grab race between the middle and lower nobility in the city (that would've already started as soon as House Tyrell was wiped out and the King's death was announced). Of course, in that same setting, the whole scheme might've failed in the first place given how unstable wildfire is as well as its relative rarity as a substance, or word would've gotten out. There's a reason why Feudal Europe was characterized a lot more by successful assassinations and lot less by "decapitation bombings" in major cities.
We're judging the characters as the audience, not the populace in Westeros - who really don't great access to education or news in our world since they're peasants.
Explain several "Ladies" in charge of major houses then, albeit one could argue they are minor plot points in some regards but Queen of Thornes stands out in particular, though she uses a prudent proxy but anyone paying attention ignores that and deals directly with her and a certain "little" Lady Mormont is a big part of how Jon Snow takes his throne. Those houses those ladies come from? Some are former kingdoms, so its not just Dorne.
Though several times in Westeros histories, Queens ruled from the Iron Throne, sometimes at the same time as the King.
So, WTF are you on about? No, you're wrong by flat out ignoring women in positions of power who succeeded those positions from their dead men in many cases. Pay no heed if you wish but your fictional stand in tried that, the results were the Tarly's starting a new tradition in their family - cremation.
Explain several "Ladies" in charge of major houses then, albeit one could argue they are minor plot points in some regards but Queen of Thornes stands out in particular, though she uses a prudent proxy but anyone paying attention ignores that and deals directly with her and a certain "little" Lady Mormont is a big part of how Jon Snow takes his throne. Those houses those ladies come from? Some are former kingdoms, so its not just Dorne.
Though several times in Westeros histories, Queens ruled from the Iron Throne, sometimes at the same time as the King.
So, WTF are you on about? No, you're wrong by flat out ignoring women in positions of power who succeeded those positions from their dead men in many cases. Pay no heed if you wish but your fictional stand in tried that, the results were the Tarly's starting a new tradition in their family - cremation.
I don't know why you think the things you think. Everything you just said is completely covered by what I (and others) have said on the subject.
I'd explain it, but you're being kind of mean about it now so I'll just leave it with "you're wrong about this and maybe you'll figure out why and maybe not".
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Explain several "Ladies" in charge of major houses then, albeit one could argue they are minor plot points in some regards but Queen of Thornes stands out in particular, though she uses a prudent proxy but anyone paying attention ignores that and deals directly with her and a certain "little" Lady Mormont is a big part of how Jon Snow takes his throne. Those houses those ladies come from? Some are former kingdoms, so its not just Dorne.
Though several times in Westeros histories, Queens ruled from the Iron Throne, sometimes at the same time as the King.
So, WTF are you on about? No, you're wrong by flat out ignoring women in positions of power who succeeded those positions from their dead men in many cases. Pay no heed if you wish but your fictional stand in tried that, the results were the Tarly's starting a new tradition in their family - cremation.
Queen of Thorns has influence because she has proven herself, but she still needs a male heir to give her legitimacy.
Lady Mormont is in charge because all the Mormont men are dead.
That's how it works in Westeros. A woman can have power and influence, but only if the man who is actually (legally) in charge doesn't mind/doesn't realize he's not in control, or if all the men are literally dead (or otherwise illegitimate, such as Jorah). Dorne is the only part of Westeros where a woman can straight up rule a house without any kind of ifs or buts.
Explain several "Ladies" in charge of major houses then, albeit one could argue they are minor plot points in some regards but Queen of Thornes stands out in particular, though she uses a prudent proxy but anyone paying attention ignores that and deals directly with her and a certain "little" Lady Mormont is a big part of how Jon Snow takes his throne. Those houses those ladies come from? Some are former kingdoms, so its not just Dorne.
Though several times in Westeros histories, Queens ruled from the Iron Throne, sometimes at the same time as the King.
So, WTF are you on about? No, you're wrong by flat out ignoring women in positions of power who succeeded those positions from their dead men in many cases. Pay no heed if you wish but your fictional stand in tried that, the results were the Tarly's starting a new tradition in their family - cremation.
There's really no need for hostility in this discussion. Dial it down please.
The show dabbles with the ladies, but there's too many plot points that indicate exactly how the lines of succession go.
The books (and even short stories) go into it in many different story lines. Jon's claim is stronger than Dany's. There really isn't room for debate.
Mmmm... Cocks... on
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DHSChase lizards.....bark at donkeys..Registered Userregular
Also
The Dance of The Dragons.
Literally a war of succession based on primogeniture vs. male inheritance that casts a pall on the entire Targaryen Dynasty.
If it exists for any reason in the story canon is to be a mark of conflict for the very idea that Daenerys could be queen, especially if there are Male heirs.
"Grip 'em up, grip 'em, grip 'em good, said the Gryphon... to the pig."
And prior to the Blackfyres, right back at the start of it all, the whole Targ line of succession was kicked off as a thing by 1 male, 2 females, they ruled together... on Dragons. Huge dragons.
You can't codify over the original code that made the Iron Throne they are all fighting over in the first place or what's the point? Dany is pretty much a direct copy of what made the 7 kingdoms into one Westeros, Iron Throne to rule them all, directly the seed of the last Targ king and yet that's not good enough because you're insisting they follow rules that only part of them follow, males only and only their oldest living male kids as heirs, when that just isn't the facts on the ground in the present part of the story or in the past either.
And just like the Mad King lost his war and some lusty drunk took the throne, doesn't mean a bunch of people who swore fealty to Robert Baratheon weren't secretly harbouring support still for the Targs in exile. And just because the Blackfyres lost, doesn't mean everyone agreed that women would never hold positions of power again either.
Jon's claim is weaksauce if all it has going for it is He-man Women Haters Club screaming "Screw you, you lost that war Blackfyres!", even if he had a dragon, which he doesn't, so...
And prior to the Blackfyres, right back at the start of it all, the whole Targ line of succession was kicked off as a thing by 1 male, 2 females, they ruled together... on Dragons. Huge dragons.
You can't codify over the original code that made the Iron Throne they are all fighting over in the first place or what's the point? Dany is pretty much a direct copy of what made the 7 kingdoms into one Westeros, Iron Throne to rule them all, directly the seed of the last Targ king and yet that's not good enough because you're insisting they follow rules that only part of them follow, males only and only their oldest living male kids as heirs, when that just isn't the facts on the ground in the present part of the story or in the past either.
And just like the Mad King lost his war and some lusty drunk took the throne, doesn't mean a bunch of people who swore fealty to Robert Baratheon weren't secretly harbouring support still for the Targs in exile. And just because the Blackfyres lost, doesn't mean everyone agreed that women would never hold positions of power again either.
Jon's claim is weaksauce if all it has going for it is He-man Women Haters Club screaming "Screw you, you lost that war Blackfyres!", even if he had a dragon, which he doesn't, so...
Yea, folks are saying it's complicated and you're oversimplifying it. It's why some folks wrote like 1600 words on the issue:
And prior to the Blackfyres, right back at the start of it all, the whole Targ line of succession was kicked off as a thing by 1 male, 2 females, they ruled together... on Dragons. Huge dragons.
You can't codify over the original code that made the Iron Throne they are all fighting over in the first place or what's the point? Dany is pretty much a direct copy of what made the 7 kingdoms into one Westeros, Iron Throne to rule them all, directly the seed of the last Targ king and yet that's not good enough because you're insisting they follow rules that only part of them follow, males only and only their oldest living male kids as heirs, when that just isn't the facts on the ground in the present part of the story or in the past either.
When Aegon died, Visenya was still alive. If they ruled together, she would have become the sole monarch of the seven kingdoms.
She wasn't. Aegon's firstborn son Aenys was made king, despite Visenya's assertions that he wasn't fit for kingship, and Visenya was made Dowager Queen.
Visenya and Rhaenys were called queens, but in the power structure of the seven kingdoms they were consorts who served on Aegon's council; they by themselves ruled nothing.
Explain several "Ladies" in charge of major houses then, albeit one could argue they are minor plot points in some regards but Queen of Thornes stands out in particular, though she uses a prudent proxy but anyone paying attention ignores that and deals directly with her and a certain "little" Lady Mormont is a big part of how Jon Snow takes his throne. Those houses those ladies come from? Some are former kingdoms, so its not just Dorne.
Though several times in Westeros histories, Queens ruled from the Iron Throne, sometimes at the same time as the King.
So, WTF are you on about? No, you're wrong by flat out ignoring women in positions of power who succeeded those positions from their dead men in many cases. Pay no heed if you wish but your fictional stand in tried that, the results were the Tarly's starting a new tradition in their family - cremation.
Queen of Thorns has influence because she has proven herself, but she still needs a male heir to give her legitimacy.
Lady Mormont is in charge because all the Mormont men are dead.
That's how it works in Westeros. A woman can have power and influence, but only if the man who is actually (legally) in charge doesn't mind/doesn't realize he's not in control, or if all the men are literally dead (or otherwise illegitimate, such as Jorah). Dorne is the only part of Westeros where a woman can straight up rule a house without any kind of ifs or buts.
I seem to recall hearing somewhere that this was based on an actual English civil war / power struggle where all the men in charge of the houses involved ended up dying in battle leaving women in charge, who promptly went "This is silly" and made peace with little actually accomplished by the men who started the original conflict besides a whole bunch of dead people. I know the whole Stark / Lannister conflict in general is based on the War of the Roses, but GRRM has clearly drawn inspiration from quite a few real-world events.
I was given a Game of Thrones (show) trivia game on Christmas.
It has some neat design elements. On the board are some of the major locations from the show. Each team is given a number of tokens (footmen, cavalry, and crowns). On your turn you choose a location and a token, and then the opposing team draws the next trivia card and reads questions off of it.
Yeah, each card has three questions. If you're placing a footmen token, you only need to answer the first question correctly. If you want to place a cavalry, you must answer questions 2 and 3; and to place a crown requires all three.
The different ratings are also important for end-of-game calculations - each location has 8 or so pie-slices. A footman takes one slice; the cavalry two, and the crown three. If you and I have one footmen each in Harrenhal at the end of the game, we're tied for control of that area, and neither 'owns' it.
The winner is whomever controls the most territory* when the round-counter reaches the end. Or you can win outright by just placing all of your tokens first.
Every three or so rounds, the questions are drawn from a special deck. These have a picture / still from the show on the front and the questions directly relate to it.
Under the 'advanced' rules, there is the addition of a favor deck and currency tokens. Each location has a currency associated with it; and for each question you get right at that location, you earn one token. As we played, successfully placing (e.g.) a crown on Winterfell netted you three raven tokens. You can then spend these to purchase a favor card, which have extremely varied effects: one I saw was almost literally, "pretend you answered the question correctly."
I didn't feel like the questions asked for / required a lot of deep knowledge, with maybe a couple of exceptions. One was, 'which of these people are *not* using Sansa for her inheritance?' and another was 'which keep guards the main eastern pass into the Westerlands?'
In both cases, I was reading the question, but I would have had to guess on both.
At any rate, I'm very happy with it and can recommend it if you're into trivia games.
* This seems more applicable for larger games, because with just two teams I didn't really see much chance to jockey for position.
[sarcasm] This will give GRRM time to publish Winds of Winter [/sarcasm]
All kidding aside, I hope each and every one of the finals episodes are 90-120 minutes long and exceeds all expectations. All in all, I'm glad the series was made so I could share my love of ASoIaF with Mrs. m!ttens, because she got 2 chapters into AGoT before she got bored and put it down.
I just realized that I first started reading this series when I was a freshman in high school, which was 20 years ago! :surprised:
I don't know about 90-120 minutes, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if the final season was all 65-75 minute episodes
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited January 2018
I don't think 90 is out of the question
listening to Binge Mode podcast a bunch lately. why does littlefinger give sansa to the boltons? he has her and thus a claim to the north in a way, and control of the knights of the vale right, why give up any claim to the north AND sansa herself who he clearly loves, to a piece of shit? like even if bolton isn't a piece of shit I don't get the move, that just adds to it.
maybe it has something to do with translating from the book but I kinda got reminded how weird that move is.
listening to Binge Mode podcast a bunch lately. why does littlefinger give sansa to the boltons? he has her and thus a claim to the north in a way, and control of the knights of the vale right, why give up any claim to the north AND sansa herself who he clearly loves, to a piece of shit? like even if bolton isn't a piece of shit I don't get the move, that just adds to it.
maybe it has something to do with translating from the book but I kinda got reminded how weird that move is.
book stuff
In the books Sansa isn't Boltons bride. they just didn't want another nobody character so they swapped her in. It makes zero sense except they wanted a main character at that location
listening to Binge Mode podcast a bunch lately. why does littlefinger give sansa to the boltons? he has her and thus a claim to the north in a way, and control of the knights of the vale right, why give up any claim to the north AND sansa herself who he clearly loves, to a piece of shit? like even if bolton isn't a piece of shit I don't get the move, that just adds to it.
maybe it has something to do with translating from the book but I kinda got reminded how weird that move is.
it's different from what happens in the books. so it's the show writers' fault if it doesn't make sense (it doesn't).
listening to Binge Mode podcast a bunch lately. why does littlefinger give sansa to the boltons? he has her and thus a claim to the north in a way, and control of the knights of the vale right, why give up any claim to the north AND sansa herself who he clearly loves, to a piece of shit? like even if bolton isn't a piece of shit I don't get the move, that just adds to it.
maybe it has something to do with translating from the book but I kinda got reminded how weird that move is.
it's different from what happens in the books. so it's the show writers' fault if it doesn't make sense (it doesn't).
Yeah, bookwise:
Littlefinger provides a fake Arya to the Boltons who Ramsey marries. He keeps the elder sister secretly in his possession. Projected plan is let the Boltons go and Bolton up the north for awhile and then show up with a not psychopathic murderer who is also the beloved daughter of the Starks and backed up with the might of the Vale. That makes a reasonable amount of sense as far as plots go.
Variable, I think it's mostly due to merging some book threads into one show thread:
(book spoilers)
In the books, Petyr Baelish plots with Cersei to dress up a "steward's whelp" (i.e. Jeyne Poole who was the daughter of the steward of Winterfell and one of Sansa's handmaidens in King's Landing) as a fake Arya Stark to cement the Boltons as the ruling lords of Winterfell. Roose Bolton is allegedly aware she is a fraud but nobody really cares or would dare speak out against the Boltons for obvious reasons. Theon eventually rescues Jeyne and they attempt to flee to Stannis's army camp near Winterfell.
Meanwhile, Sansa and Petyr are faffing around in the Vale, ever so slowly strong-arming the Knights of the Vale to back Littlefinger as Regent to Robert Arryn. Littlefinger's plan is that Sansa (pseudonym: Alayne Stone, his "bastard daughter") is to marry a fellow named Harrold Hardyng ("Harry the Heir") who is the presumptive heir to house Arryn should any *ahem* accidents befall little Lord Robert. Once this claim is secure then the likely scenario in future books is that Sansa would claim her actual legitimacy, have the Knights of the Vale at her call and swoop in to retake Winterfell from the Boltons.
So what the show did was take a whole lot of sitting around doing nothing for Sophie Turner, cut out a shit-ton of extraneous characters and merge the two storylines together. No, it makes no sense and is a dumb plan in-universe, but I see why they would do such a thing for the sake of the television show.
As insane as it sounds, I'm starting to subscribe to the idea that GRRM is done TWoW and may be working on ADoS. Hear me out, he does a lot of rewriting. And occasionally a lot of overwriting (books bleeding into the next, things having to be cut for the next book etc). And the splitting of AFFC/ADWD probably contributed to the Meereenese Knot. Mayhaps he's sitting on TWoW just a little bit until he figures out ADoS. Because if we are indeed at the last two books writing himself in a corner without the possibility of rewrites would be painful. The rewriting is something he's described many times.
As insane as it sounds, I'm starting to subscribe to the idea that GRRM is done TWoW and may be working on ADoS. Hear me out, he does a lot of rewriting. And occasionally a lot of overwriting (books bleeding into the next, things having to be cut for the next book etc). And the splitting of AFFC/ADWD probably contributed to the Meereenese Knot. Mayhaps he's sitting on TWoW just a little bit until he figures out ADoS. Because if we are indeed at the last two books writing himself in a corner without the possibility of rewrites would be painful. The rewriting is something he's described many times.
It's plausible that he has begun writing beyond TWoW, but "done" is probably too strong a word.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
He might be done with a first draft or an outline, but the problem is writing the incredibly detailed political machinations that he's implemented in each book, quite a few of which are only in the background for the most observant to piece together. He was obviously fairly annoyed that people figured out Jon Snow's heritage just by following the fairly obvious (in hindsight) clues in the first book, so with each subsequent book the mysteries have gotten more intricate.
As insane as it sounds, I'm starting to subscribe to the idea that GRRM is done TWoW and may be working on ADoS. Hear me out, he does a lot of rewriting. And occasionally a lot of overwriting (books bleeding into the next, things having to be cut for the next book etc). And the splitting of AFFC/ADWD probably contributed to the Meereenese Knot. Mayhaps he's sitting on TWoW just a little bit until he figures out ADoS. Because if we are indeed at the last two books writing himself in a corner without the possibility of rewrites would be painful. The rewriting is something he's described many times.
He's definitely thought about ADoS, and he's almost certainly written some things that will end up in it, but I don't think it's realistic that he has a manuscript for TWoW lying around just waiting for a more fully fleshed ADoS.
That's not to judge how much is done--for all I know he'll announce the completion of Winds tomorrow, unlikely as it is. But he's made it repeatedly clear he doesn't want to wait on a novel any longer than he has to, and there's no way his publishers are going to let him sit on a (more or less) finished manuscript for a few years. When he's done with TWoW, we'll know.
I'm less so saying "this coming book is completely done" and more so saying that he will be able to finish the series. A lot of the nay-saying seems to be that this book has taken him the longest, "so imagine the next one!"
I'm simply suggesting since we're near the end he may be holding onto it longer than what is typical. Sure, if he is doing rewrites it isn't technically done.
It is rather upsetting. I have a long history of not finishing fantasy series. Yet here I am rereading ASOIAF without it being finished. Punishment perhaps.
listening to Binge Mode podcast a bunch lately. why does littlefinger give sansa to the boltons? he has her and thus a claim to the north in a way, and control of the knights of the vale right, why give up any claim to the north AND sansa herself who he clearly loves, to a piece of shit? like even if bolton isn't a piece of shit I don't get the move, that just adds to it.
maybe it has something to do with translating from the book but I kinda got reminded how weird that move is.
I’m WAY late seeing this post so I apologize but... I thought this made sense? Any claim Littlefinger would have on the North by marrying Sansa would be meaningless while Tommen was on the throne and Roose was in Winterfell. Cersei wanted Sansa tortured to death at all costs, and the North is by far the largest of the Seven Kingdoms. If Littlefinger suddenly married Sansa and claimed the North he would have ended up fighting the Boltons, the Lannisters and Stannis for that claim.
By giving Sansa to the Boltons, Littlefinger is able to return to King’s Landing with the news, make himself an indispensable ally and create a mortal enmity between the Lannisters and the Boltons, with Stannis already the enemy of both. All he has to do is advise her to wait for Stannis and the Boltons to kill each other and promise to sweep in with the armies of The Vale to mop up the survivors, and Cersei arranges for Littlefinger to be named Warden of The North. Littlefinger gets exactly what he wants, and instead of fighting three armies and laying siege to Winterfell, he will get to saunter into Winterfell (he knows Sansa would betray the Boltons in a split second) secure his hold over it for the Winter and deal with whatever starving, depleted Lannister army remains in the Spring.
Even if he did know that Ramsay was a little shit, he probably assumed Sansa would be safe until she had a son, especially since the only reason Roose had to betray Cersei and accept Sansa was to try and secure the loyalty of The North in the aftermath of the Red Wedding. Torturing Sansa, if anyone ever found out, would have done the exact opposite; it would have set The North on the Boltons. Literally the only non-Bolton loyalist we see on screen is an old woman who is tortured to death by Ramsay and never gives away that Brienne is keeping watch outside, ready to mount a rescue. I think it’s safe to assume if the wider North had known what was going on, there would have been uproar, and a simmering disloyalty (though probably not outright rebellion.)
TL:DR; All having Sansa gives Littlefinger is Sansa. Giving Sansa to the Boltons gets him the title of Warden of the North, arranges to fatally deplete two of the three remaining armies that could stand between him and that claim, and secures the loyalty of the third until it suits him to betray them.
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No, they aren't.
Sure they are! Both are using violence to put themselves on the throne based on a personal belief they have the right to sit there.
On a personal level, one is more cruel than the other. On a national level? Doesn't really make much difference, ask any of those boys in the Lannister Army she turned to ash if it makes any difference to them, and they're both of questionable sanity as well.
The narrative likes Dany because Season 7 is a bit of exciting fun but actually pretty hacky, but really? For most people? Dany's war of liberation is just one more war that they have to endure. And Dany didn't have to cross, nobody made her, she chose to kick this off. The deaths are on her.
By Westeros standards Dany is an average ruler, Cersei is as bad as the Mad King. Dany frees slaves, and tries her best to make the right choice for her people - Cersei wants to conquer and kill, even in the face of monsters like the White Walkers. They have some similar traits, since they are strong women leaders who need to be brutal to stay alive but they're not evil twins by any stretch.
Dany is actually restrained to what she could be doing with her dragons, if Cersei was in her position she'd have torched Dany's home city and slaughtered everyone on the first day. And of course she'd use her dragons on the Lannister army, any leader would be fool to leave that trump card off the field in war. The Lannister's aren't above using pseudo-WMD's themselves to win wars, that's how they won against Stannis, and how Cersei destroyed the Faith of the Seven.
It's just that it's hard to take her seriously while Linda Hamilton still exists.
Don't get me wrong, Emilia Clarke is fine (also fine, damn), but Hamilton infused that role so powerfully that anything short of a revelation is going to come out looking a little like silly cosplay (which is ironic, considering how much silly cosplay there is for Clarke's other character).
And Lena Heady channeled Hamilton enough in the TV show to avoid this unfortunate comparison.
Because from an aspect of what the Westerosi nobility think, Cersei would be much worse. Dany burned alive one noble lord and his heir. Cersei killed the sitting queen, virtually all of House Tyrell, including the Warden of the South (which apparently Mace Tyrell apparently us, along with being a council member), as well as the entirety of the church leadership (which admittedly was increasingly at odds with the nobility in King's Landing at least). Cersei ensured every noble in the city of her rank or higher was dead, with the exception of her son the King (whom she drove to suicide, though I doubt that's common knowledge).
In a more "realistic" setting, Cersei probably would've been stabbed in a hallway the week after the Sept was destroyed and left to bleed out by one of the countless royal staff who had regular access to her or the areas she crossed in (and had been paid off, if that was even necessary), leading to a power grab race between the middle and lower nobility in the city (that would've already started as soon as House Tyrell was wiped out and the King's death was announced). Of course, in that same setting, the whole scheme might've failed in the first place given how unstable wildfire is as well as its relative rarity as a substance, or word would've gotten out. There's a reason why Feudal Europe was characterized a lot more by successful assassinations and lot less by "decapitation bombings" in major cities.
We have no clue especially with the time lapsing that happened in the last few scenes of that season.
A lot of the nobles that would be quickest to blame Cersei probably were at the trial hoping to see her go down. Others would have gotten out of King's Landing like Olenna Tyrell did. There may not be much if any overlap between people who suspect Cersei and people still in King's Landing.
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I liked Clarke's Sarah as someone for the next generation, and not directly competing against Hamilton - something I think they did deliberately because she's not the right actress to compete with her head to head like that. This goes into personal taste, as well. Among the actresses who played the character she's at the bottom acting wise.
Headey was definitely superior to Clarke, no question.
We're judging the characters as the audience, not the populace in Westeros - who really don't great access to education or news in our world since they're peasants.
Explain several "Ladies" in charge of major houses then, albeit one could argue they are minor plot points in some regards but Queen of Thornes stands out in particular, though she uses a prudent proxy but anyone paying attention ignores that and deals directly with her and a certain "little" Lady Mormont is a big part of how Jon Snow takes his throne. Those houses those ladies come from? Some are former kingdoms, so its not just Dorne.
Though several times in Westeros histories, Queens ruled from the Iron Throne, sometimes at the same time as the King.
So, WTF are you on about? No, you're wrong by flat out ignoring women in positions of power who succeeded those positions from their dead men in many cases. Pay no heed if you wish but your fictional stand in tried that, the results were the Tarly's starting a new tradition in their family - cremation.
I don't know why you think the things you think. Everything you just said is completely covered by what I (and others) have said on the subject.
I'd explain it, but you're being kind of mean about it now so I'll just leave it with "you're wrong about this and maybe you'll figure out why and maybe not".
Queen of Thorns has influence because she has proven herself, but she still needs a male heir to give her legitimacy.
Lady Mormont is in charge because all the Mormont men are dead.
That's how it works in Westeros. A woman can have power and influence, but only if the man who is actually (legally) in charge doesn't mind/doesn't realize he's not in control, or if all the men are literally dead (or otherwise illegitimate, such as Jorah). Dorne is the only part of Westeros where a woman can straight up rule a house without any kind of ifs or buts.
There's really no need for hostility in this discussion. Dial it down please.
The books (and even short stories) go into it in many different story lines. Jon's claim is stronger than Dany's. There really isn't room for debate.
The Dance of The Dragons.
Literally a war of succession based on primogeniture vs. male inheritance that casts a pall on the entire Targaryen Dynasty.
If it exists for any reason in the story canon is to be a mark of conflict for the very idea that Daenerys could be queen, especially if there are Male heirs.
You can't codify over the original code that made the Iron Throne they are all fighting over in the first place or what's the point? Dany is pretty much a direct copy of what made the 7 kingdoms into one Westeros, Iron Throne to rule them all, directly the seed of the last Targ king and yet that's not good enough because you're insisting they follow rules that only part of them follow, males only and only their oldest living male kids as heirs, when that just isn't the facts on the ground in the present part of the story or in the past either.
And just like the Mad King lost his war and some lusty drunk took the throne, doesn't mean a bunch of people who swore fealty to Robert Baratheon weren't secretly harbouring support still for the Targs in exile. And just because the Blackfyres lost, doesn't mean everyone agreed that women would never hold positions of power again either.
Jon's claim is weaksauce if all it has going for it is He-man Women Haters Club screaming "Screw you, you lost that war Blackfyres!", even if he had a dragon, which he doesn't, so...
Yea, folks are saying it's complicated and you're oversimplifying it. It's why some folks wrote like 1600 words on the issue:
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Customs#Inheritance
When Aegon died, Visenya was still alive. If they ruled together, she would have become the sole monarch of the seven kingdoms.
She wasn't. Aegon's firstborn son Aenys was made king, despite Visenya's assertions that he wasn't fit for kingship, and Visenya was made Dowager Queen.
Visenya and Rhaenys were called queens, but in the power structure of the seven kingdoms they were consorts who served on Aegon's council; they by themselves ruled nothing.
I seem to recall hearing somewhere that this was based on an actual English civil war / power struggle where all the men in charge of the houses involved ended up dying in battle leaving women in charge, who promptly went "This is silly" and made peace with little actually accomplished by the men who started the original conflict besides a whole bunch of dead people. I know the whole Stark / Lannister conflict in general is based on the War of the Roses, but GRRM has clearly drawn inspiration from quite a few real-world events.
It has some neat design elements. On the board are some of the major locations from the show. Each team is given a number of tokens (footmen, cavalry, and crowns). On your turn you choose a location and a token, and then the opposing team draws the next trivia card and reads questions off of it.
Yeah, each card has three questions. If you're placing a footmen token, you only need to answer the first question correctly. If you want to place a cavalry, you must answer questions 2 and 3; and to place a crown requires all three.
The different ratings are also important for end-of-game calculations - each location has 8 or so pie-slices. A footman takes one slice; the cavalry two, and the crown three. If you and I have one footmen each in Harrenhal at the end of the game, we're tied for control of that area, and neither 'owns' it.
The winner is whomever controls the most territory* when the round-counter reaches the end. Or you can win outright by just placing all of your tokens first.
Every three or so rounds, the questions are drawn from a special deck. These have a picture / still from the show on the front and the questions directly relate to it.
Under the 'advanced' rules, there is the addition of a favor deck and currency tokens. Each location has a currency associated with it; and for each question you get right at that location, you earn one token. As we played, successfully placing (e.g.) a crown on Winterfell netted you three raven tokens. You can then spend these to purchase a favor card, which have extremely varied effects: one I saw was almost literally, "pretend you answered the question correctly."
I didn't feel like the questions asked for / required a lot of deep knowledge, with maybe a couple of exceptions. One was, 'which of these people are *not* using Sansa for her inheritance?' and another was 'which keep guards the main eastern pass into the Westerlands?'
In both cases, I was reading the question, but I would have had to guess on both.
At any rate, I'm very happy with it and can recommend it if you're into trivia games.
* This seems more applicable for larger games, because with just two teams I didn't really see much chance to jockey for position.
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All kidding aside, I hope each and every one of the finals episodes are 90-120 minutes long and exceeds all expectations. All in all, I'm glad the series was made so I could share my love of ASoIaF with Mrs. m!ttens, because she got 2 chapters into AGoT before she got bored and put it down.
I just realized that I first started reading this series when I was a freshman in high school, which was 20 years ago! :surprised:
A disappointment and also torture...
listening to Binge Mode podcast a bunch lately. why does littlefinger give sansa to the boltons? he has her and thus a claim to the north in a way, and control of the knights of the vale right, why give up any claim to the north AND sansa herself who he clearly loves, to a piece of shit? like even if bolton isn't a piece of shit I don't get the move, that just adds to it.
maybe it has something to do with translating from the book but I kinda got reminded how weird that move is.
book stuff
it's different from what happens in the books. so it's the show writers' fault if it doesn't make sense (it doesn't).
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Yeah, bookwise:
(book spoilers)
Meanwhile, Sansa and Petyr are faffing around in the Vale, ever so slowly strong-arming the Knights of the Vale to back Littlefinger as Regent to Robert Arryn. Littlefinger's plan is that Sansa (pseudonym: Alayne Stone, his "bastard daughter") is to marry a fellow named Harrold Hardyng ("Harry the Heir") who is the presumptive heir to house Arryn should any *ahem* accidents befall little Lord Robert. Once this claim is secure then the likely scenario in future books is that Sansa would claim her actual legitimacy, have the Knights of the Vale at her call and swoop in to retake Winterfell from the Boltons.
So what the show did was take a whole lot of sitting around doing nothing for Sophie Turner, cut out a shit-ton of extraneous characters and merge the two storylines together. No, it makes no sense and is a dumb plan in-universe, but I see why they would do such a thing for the sake of the television show.
:x
Well, sure.
I mean except the show will actually have an end.
It's plausible that he has begun writing beyond TWoW, but "done" is probably too strong a word.
He's definitely thought about ADoS, and he's almost certainly written some things that will end up in it, but I don't think it's realistic that he has a manuscript for TWoW lying around just waiting for a more fully fleshed ADoS.
That's not to judge how much is done--for all I know he'll announce the completion of Winds tomorrow, unlikely as it is. But he's made it repeatedly clear he doesn't want to wait on a novel any longer than he has to, and there's no way his publishers are going to let him sit on a (more or less) finished manuscript for a few years. When he's done with TWoW, we'll know.
I'm simply suggesting since we're near the end he may be holding onto it longer than what is typical. Sure, if he is doing rewrites it isn't technically done.
It is rather upsetting. I have a long history of not finishing fantasy series. Yet here I am rereading ASOIAF without it being finished. Punishment perhaps.
I’m WAY late seeing this post so I apologize but... I thought this made sense? Any claim Littlefinger would have on the North by marrying Sansa would be meaningless while Tommen was on the throne and Roose was in Winterfell. Cersei wanted Sansa tortured to death at all costs, and the North is by far the largest of the Seven Kingdoms. If Littlefinger suddenly married Sansa and claimed the North he would have ended up fighting the Boltons, the Lannisters and Stannis for that claim.
By giving Sansa to the Boltons, Littlefinger is able to return to King’s Landing with the news, make himself an indispensable ally and create a mortal enmity between the Lannisters and the Boltons, with Stannis already the enemy of both. All he has to do is advise her to wait for Stannis and the Boltons to kill each other and promise to sweep in with the armies of The Vale to mop up the survivors, and Cersei arranges for Littlefinger to be named Warden of The North. Littlefinger gets exactly what he wants, and instead of fighting three armies and laying siege to Winterfell, he will get to saunter into Winterfell (he knows Sansa would betray the Boltons in a split second) secure his hold over it for the Winter and deal with whatever starving, depleted Lannister army remains in the Spring.
Even if he did know that Ramsay was a little shit, he probably assumed Sansa would be safe until she had a son, especially since the only reason Roose had to betray Cersei and accept Sansa was to try and secure the loyalty of The North in the aftermath of the Red Wedding. Torturing Sansa, if anyone ever found out, would have done the exact opposite; it would have set The North on the Boltons. Literally the only non-Bolton loyalist we see on screen is an old woman who is tortured to death by Ramsay and never gives away that Brienne is keeping watch outside, ready to mount a rescue. I think it’s safe to assume if the wider North had known what was going on, there would have been uproar, and a simmering disloyalty (though probably not outright rebellion.)
TL:DR; All having Sansa gives Littlefinger is Sansa. Giving Sansa to the Boltons gets him the title of Warden of the North, arranges to fatally deplete two of the three remaining armies that could stand between him and that claim, and secures the loyalty of the third until it suits him to betray them.
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