So, just having played through this for this first time, there were a couple lines that made me wonder [whole game spoilers]:
Did Kreia manipulate the relevant parties into beginning the Mandalorian Wars?
During the Ravager sequence, Mandalore laments that the Mandalorians had been tricked, driven to war with the Republic, and thereby destroyed by the Jedi who met them in battle. Given the Mandalorian code of demonstrating honor and will through strength of arms (which is, to some extent, a shadow of Kreia's growth through conflict doctrine), is it possible that whoever Kreia was at this time - Kreia, Darth Traya, or Arren Kae - convinced the Mandalorians that now was the time to strike at the Republic in order to test themselves? (I have no idea how this might have been done, for whatever that's worth.)
Because this would coincide with her teachings to Revan, while Revan was still her Jedi student, which lead to Revan disregarding the Council's orders and meeting the Mandalorians in battle.
I think Kreia, the Old Teacher, has two motivations, perhaps more: the goal of her younger self, when she was Arren Kae and Darth Traya - to ready the people of the Core Worlds for a war against the True Sith; and the goal of her embittered present self - destruction of the Force through the Exile.
It seems to me that Revan, her best student, being the locus of the Mandalorian Wars, and then the Jedi Civil War, dovetails too firmly with Kreia's goal of preparing the Republic for a war with the True Sith, and doing so by practicing her growth-through-conflict dogma.
Or am I reading too much into a couple throw away lines, and lining it up too much with what she says about Revan preparing for a future war?
One, I think it's pretty clear that Revan did not do what Kreia wanted or expected. Revan walks away from her. Twice. This frustrates her because Revan was her best student and one of the very few people she actually respects. It's one of the very few things that shakes her faith in her beliefs. 'If Revan chose a different path... maybe I'm wrong?'
But yes someone *cough* the sith emperor*cough* manipulated the Mandalorians.
So I've finally gotten her trained as a Jedi, but I think the one thing left is her telling me her name. Anyone know if there's a special requirement for that? Because it's getting a little frustrating going half the game without talking to Visas at all.
So I've finally gotten her trained as a Jedi, but I think the one thing left is her telling me her name. Anyone know if there's a special requirement for that? Because it's getting a little frustrating going half the game without talking to Visas at all.
You should be OK to talk to Visas by now.
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
So, just having played through this for this first time, there were a couple lines that made me wonder [whole game spoilers]:
Did Kreia manipulate the relevant parties into beginning the Mandalorian Wars?
During the Ravager sequence, Mandalore laments that the Mandalorians had been tricked, driven to war with the Republic, and thereby destroyed by the Jedi who met them in battle. Given the Mandalorian code of demonstrating honor and will through strength of arms (which is, to some extent, a shadow of Kreia's growth through conflict doctrine), is it possible that whoever Kreia was at this time - Kreia, Darth Traya, or Arren Kae - convinced the Mandalorians that now was the time to strike at the Republic in order to test themselves? (I have no idea how this might have been done, for whatever that's worth.)
Because this would coincide with her teachings to Revan, while Revan was still her Jedi student, which lead to Revan disregarding the Council's orders and meeting the Mandalorians in battle.
I think Kreia, the Old Teacher, has two motivations, perhaps more: the goal of her younger self, when she was Arren Kae and Darth Traya - to ready the people of the Core Worlds for a war against the True Sith; and the goal of her embittered present self - destruction of the Force through the Exile.
It seems to me that Revan, her best student, being the locus of the Mandalorian Wars, and then the Jedi Civil War, dovetails too firmly with Kreia's goal of preparing the Republic for a war with the True Sith, and doing so by practicing her growth-through-conflict dogma.
Or am I reading too much into a couple throw away lines, and lining it up too much with what she says about Revan preparing for a future war?
the emperor manipulated the mandalorians from the shadows to go on their crusade
To be more specific, the ORIGINAL intention was to have The Mandalorian Wars be caused by:
Agents of the True Sith Empire founded by Naga Sadow, hidden since the Great Hyperspace War, that was Avellone's plan. They were to be an existential threat to the galaxy, capable of solar engineering, creating station sized relics like the Star Forge, having entirely new masteries of the force etc.
And it was going to be about Revan and the Exile, and other old and new party members, finding a way to defeat them.
And pretty much all of that was cooler than what was retconned to be the backstory in TOR.
To be more specific, the ORIGINAL intention was to have The Mandalorian Wars be caused by:
Agents of the True Sith Empire founded by Naga Sadow, hidden since the Great Hyperspace War, that was Avellone's plan. They were to be an existential threat to the galaxy, capable of solar engineering, creating station sized relics like the Star Forge, having entirely new masteries of the force etc.
And it was going to be about Revan and the Exile, and other old and new party members, finding a way to defeat them.
And pretty much all of that was cooler than what was retconned to be the backstory in TOR.
I dunno, everything except the very last part seems just as hackneyed
there was no HK factory? I'm relieved but... did it get cut out again? Hrm.
To me the real ending is Kreia at Dantooine. It still gives me chills after all these years, just an absolutely perfect scene
Did you talk to HK-47 enough? he'll tell you that you need to encounter 3 more HK groups which I think is the trigger. I've only fought one since that dialogue but I think that's how it works
My friend is working on a roguelike game you can play if you want to. (It has free demo)
there was no HK factory? I'm relieved but... did it get cut out again? Hrm.
To me the real ending is Kreia at Dantooine. It still gives me chills after all these years, just an absolutely perfect scene
Did you talk to HK-47 enough? he'll tell you that you need to encounter 3 more HK groups which I think is the trigger. I've only fought one since that dialogue but I think that's how it works
Yeah, you need to ask HK about the sonic thingy you picked up on Peragus that you used to copy voices and he'll mention that the HK droids are using it to follow you. Kill a few groups of HKs and there's a scene on the Ebon Hawk of him torturing one of the droids into revealing the factory. I still don't know how you get there, because I know where it it but I cannot figure out a way for me to actually reach it. Maybe I need to do another planet first.
I just finished Onderon Part 1 and unlocked the HK factory in the process. I'll probably do that next since I'm getting a bit ahead now in the planet list.
To be more specific, the ORIGINAL intention was to have The Mandalorian Wars be caused by:
Agents of the True Sith Empire founded by Naga Sadow, hidden since the Great Hyperspace War, that was Avellone's plan. They were to be an existential threat to the galaxy, capable of solar engineering, creating station sized relics like the Star Forge, having entirely new masteries of the force etc.
And it was going to be about Revan and the Exile, and other old and new party members, finding a way to defeat them.
And pretty much all of that was cooler than what was retconned to be the backstory in TOR.
I guess I didn't talk to him enough. He never mentioned any of that shit to me. I sure as shit didn't let him off the ship. I still got the ending where
he punks Goto though so I don't feel like I missed much.
The cut content around the Malachor section is sometimes good and sometimes should have remained cut. Sometimes having a really rough implementation makes something look worse than simply having nothing at all. Notably the "rescuing your companions" stuff is really weak, as is Atton's dialogue right at the end as you're leaving. That wasn't meant to be in the game.
I did it! I finished Nar Shadaa and all of the sidequests and got my lightsaber.
It was funny how things change after making your lightsaber. I went and turned in some quests and two refugees paid me in lightsabers. Wtf, refugees?
I'm still going solid Gun Jedi, but it doesn't really seem to matter now. Only halfway through the game and Force Storm is already an I Win button, I don't even need to draw my weapons anymore.
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
Why is the AI so dogshit though. I wiped on the yacht because Kreia just ran off by herself through 3 rooms full of droids and died.
I just want her to spam force storm or destroy droid and nothing else but instead she runs up and starts punching dudes???
I really don't want to have to micro manage my party at all times. I just wanna mash master flurry haha.
the game is really old, and as a result the AI is going to be dumb as fuck constantly
I mean, to an extent. But Baldur's Gate had a perfectly robust AI script system nearly a decade earlier, and it was based on an earlier version of the same d20 system. Having ranged and support characters default to random melee attacks is a fixable bug, even in 2005.
KOTOR is part of an uneasy changeover between deep and granular Baldur's Gate and accessible and gameplay focused Mass Effect style. As such the combat and tactical side of things essentially blow. It's not as enjoyable as later games nor as in depth and tactical as others.
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Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
jade empire was also a victim of that transitional period at Bioware
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Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
incidentally, @Wyborn I'd suggest Jade Empire for consideration as the subject of a future LP thread
I think Jade Empire fared a little better because there was less of a party focus and less strategy expected. KOTOR was definitely partly based on the idea that strategic party management was for nerds but not far enough in that they went "let's pull out this archaic garbage system and use something that makes sense in video games"
It is interesting to watch the evolution in Bioware games. I remember JE really frustrated me because the 'point of no return' is chapter, like, 3 out of 7, and I apparently fucked up my romance plotline by not stopping to talk to the character at a specific point during a mission which had no indication.
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Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
yeah it's really easy to miss critical party conversations in that game
Jade Empire was a wonderful idea and I wish they'd been able to iterate on it.
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
JE is a fun game that was made probably 5 years too early
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WhiteZinfandelYour insidesLet me show you themRegistered Userregular
Having played a lot of KotOR and a fair amount of KotOR 2 on xbox, I can confidently say that the combat behavior and UI issues are at least twice as bad on PC. I have no idea why.
His influence is okay...I think. It's been raised 3 or 4 times, and never lowered, but everytime I talk to him, the only options I get is to play pazaak
His influence is okay...I think. It's been raised 3 or 4 times, and never lowered, but everytime I talk to him, the only options I get is to play pazaak
Have you triggered his backstory stuff? You might need to bring him to the refugee camp on Nar Shaddaa to get that to fire.
I guess I’m the only one who didn’t like jade empire . I played it I beat it but I can’t even remember anyone’s name or why I was supposed to care about them.
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WhiteZinfandelYour insidesLet me show you themRegistered Userregular
Jade Empire ranks pretty high on my list of favorite Bioware games. The combat was simple enough not to get in the way, the culture of the people and mystical mythos were vividly realized and different enough to be compelling, the characters were unique enough that every one of them is still burned into my mind years later, and the morality system was actually thoughtful, prominent, and internally consistent throughout the game for the first fucking time in the history of Bioware.
I think one of my favorite things about Kreia and how she talks about the Handmaiden is when she tells you about the Handmaiden's mother, the Exile can go "Wait hold on how do you know that, the Handmaiden's never told anyone" and she doesn't even try to offer an explanation, she just talks past you
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During the Ravager sequence, Mandalore laments that the Mandalorians had been tricked, driven to war with the Republic, and thereby destroyed by the Jedi who met them in battle. Given the Mandalorian code of demonstrating honor and will through strength of arms (which is, to some extent, a shadow of Kreia's growth through conflict doctrine), is it possible that whoever Kreia was at this time - Kreia, Darth Traya, or Arren Kae - convinced the Mandalorians that now was the time to strike at the Republic in order to test themselves? (I have no idea how this might have been done, for whatever that's worth.)
Because this would coincide with her teachings to Revan, while Revan was still her Jedi student, which lead to Revan disregarding the Council's orders and meeting the Mandalorians in battle.
I think Kreia, the Old Teacher, has two motivations, perhaps more: the goal of her younger self, when she was Arren Kae and Darth Traya - to ready the people of the Core Worlds for a war against the True Sith; and the goal of her embittered present self - destruction of the Force through the Exile.
It seems to me that Revan, her best student, being the locus of the Mandalorian Wars, and then the Jedi Civil War, dovetails too firmly with Kreia's goal of preparing the Republic for a war with the True Sith, and doing so by practicing her growth-through-conflict dogma.
Or am I reading too much into a couple throw away lines, and lining it up too much with what she says about Revan preparing for a future war?
But yes someone *cough* the sith emperor*cough* manipulated the Mandalorians.
You should be OK to talk to Visas by now.
And it was going to be about Revan and the Exile, and other old and new party members, finding a way to defeat them.
And pretty much all of that was cooler than what was retconned to be the backstory in TOR.
I dunno, everything except the very last part seems just as hackneyed
To me the real ending is Kreia at Dantooine. It still gives me chills after all these years, just an absolutely perfect scene
Man, KoTOR3 would have been a hell of a thing.
The cut content around the Malachor section is sometimes good and sometimes should have remained cut. Sometimes having a really rough implementation makes something look worse than simply having nothing at all. Notably the "rescuing your companions" stuff is really weak, as is Atton's dialogue right at the end as you're leaving. That wasn't meant to be in the game.
I just want her to spam force storm or destroy droid and nothing else but instead she runs up and starts punching dudes???
I really don't want to have to micro manage my party at all times. I just wanna mash master flurry haha.
It was funny how things change after making your lightsaber. I went and turned in some quests and two refugees paid me in lightsabers. Wtf, refugees?
I'm still going solid Gun Jedi, but it doesn't really seem to matter now. Only halfway through the game and Force Storm is already an I Win button, I don't even need to draw my weapons anymore.
the game is really old, and as a result the AI is going to be dumb as fuck constantly
I mean, to an extent. But Baldur's Gate had a perfectly robust AI script system nearly a decade earlier, and it was based on an earlier version of the same d20 system. Having ranged and support characters default to random melee attacks is a fixable bug, even in 2005.
His influence is okay...I think. It's been raised 3 or 4 times, and never lowered, but everytime I talk to him, the only options I get is to play pazaak
Have you triggered his backstory stuff? You might need to bring him to the refugee camp on Nar Shaddaa to get that to fire.
I'll take this under advisement. I don't remember much about my playthrough of the game from 13 years ago, or the game itself
Not exactly sure how the game's take on a mystical pretend version of China would read to me, now