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Cyberpunk 2077 - It Can't Get Darker Than Night City, Right?

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Posts

  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    edited January 19
    For some reason, this made mit think of this thread

    autono-wally, erotibot300 on
    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
    DarmakHyphyKezzy3clipseNightslyrH3Knuckles
  • DarmakDarmak RAGE Registered User regular
    Donnicton wrote: »
    I want to play a sentient gun. Just a bigass rifle with legs, the stock is the torso, the barrel the neck with some sort of optical system at the muzzle in place of eyes. It will communicate entirely through percussive noises and be deeply committed to nonviolence.

    bastion-gameplay.jpg

    This, uh, made me think of this for some reason



    I'm not sorry

    kORf4o0.png
    PMAvers
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    Apostate wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote: »
    Are there any good female led cyberpunk stories?

    Ghost in the Shell?

    Ghost in the Shell (in most of its incarnations) has a great female lead--that's sort of a trademark of Shiro Masamune's work, and he did the same in Appleseed and Dominion, though not as effectively--but the franchise is consistently and firmly in the realm of post-cyberpunk (well, maybe not the American movie, I haven't seen it). On one hand, it's easy to treat post-cyberpunk as fundamentally cyerbpunk, though on the other hand a lot of fundamental qualities of post-cyberpunk make it anti-cyberpunk in nature (particularly the characteristic of antagonists being anti-punk, i.e. law enforcement, figures of authority or power, etc.). So it depends on your definition--of course, for all we know the game could end up being post-cyberpunk, since you play some sort of law enforcement agency (the strongest portrayals of GitS have the heroine consistently remain in her position of authority and power, that's part of the challenge).

    (What a shock hearing this from me.)

    I see no difference in your definition between cyberpunk and "post cyberpunk." If Ghost in the Shell isn't cyberpunk I don't know what is.

    GitS isn't really dystopian at all, which would be the big dividing line for me from cyberpunk. Corporations are powerful, but far from all-powerful; governments are still in charge and generally seem to enforce their laws quite effectively, though it's not great everywhere. With GitS, something like the vision control from The Laughing Man arc is, though scary and powerful, extremely limited in application and people in control of it; in cyberpunk, that sort of thing would be everywhere and virtually everybody would be living in fear of the Eye Company or something like that suddenly making them all blind.

    Shadowrun Seattle is a risky place to live for just about anybody, but the New Port City of GitS has tens of millions of people that live completely ordinary lives with no concern for things like a company going rogue and suddenly turning an AI droid army loose on the city to take over.

    The GitS setting is definitely something like what you would get if you nuked the Shadowrun setting. The survivors were mad about the corporations fucking everything up, strip their powers away, get governments back in place with a strong motivation to prevent total control by a handful of wealthy elite, and then it's the business of history as usual alongside things like cybertechnology.

    A lot of people tend to miss it, especially American audiences I think (for reasons of economic clout), but GitS has a very anti-dystopian message, especially from a materialist standpoint. The Niihama of GitS, the titular city, has a firmly-established middle class (of both blue and white collar varieties) that tenaciously guards its lifestyle, that some semblance of capitalist economic normalcy (rich, poor, in between), and a middle class culture of bourgeoisie ambitions (their children getting into good schools, securing promotions, going on vacations). And it's not alone in Japan, or in the world either, despite a global nuclear war. Section 9, in some ways, is one of a multitude of defenders of that very imperfect but still desirable status quo (and not exclusively from the right, but occasionally the left as well). That middle-class existence also presses right up against definitions of citizenship and nationhood in the postwar world (indeed, the refugee crisis owes a lot to the fact that the refugees are, in large part, being denied access to that middle-class existence but thanks to modern technology are acutely aware of it).

    GitS is, more than once, the struggle of preserving that middle-class world (and the rich and the poor as well) from that further dystopia that's potentially five or ten years down the line, if certain individuals (like Gouda in Stand Alone Complex). Despite championing the status quo, it's a very effective narrative that's holds up over the decades (it doesn't hurt that the franchise is happy to subvert it too, with revolutionary scenarios, etc.). I get the impression that the Johnasson movie mostly or completely ignored that class dynamic in favor of a more "punkish" flavor, and that was another failure of it in the franchise.

    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
    manwiththemachinegunJepheryNightslyrGSMH3Knuckles
  • QuiotuQuiotu Registered User regular
    This makes me realize I can't think of too many 'happy' cyberpunk environments. I mean you can have fun in the setting, but the setting itself tends to be dystopian, authoritarian and about sticking it to the man... or BEING the man. GitS is a good example of a cyberpunk IP that omitted the 'futuristic noir' aspect that's famous in most others. The Fifth Element is the only other example I can think of.

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  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    edited January 19
    I think that cyberpunk is defined by the idea that technology won't change our fundamental human nature. After sticking a bunch of cybernetic parts on and connecting the mind to the internet, what exists is still a flawed human being.

    That is dystopian if one's view of humanity is negative.

    Contrast utopian Star Trek, where the idea is that technology has allowed the majority of humanity to overcome its base and selfish nature.

    Jephery on
    }
    "Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
    manwiththemachinegunGSMDarkewolfe
  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    Oh man, the Johansson movie got a lot wrong about GitS. Though one of the more annoying sticking points for me was how they made a big deal about how awesome and special and fancy the her cyborg body was. Like, that is the complete opposite from the manga/show. The Major's body is basically an off the shelf Discount Brand body specifically because in her line of work it gets destroyed all the time. It's like if you wear glasses and work a relatively active job where there is a high chance you'll break em you're likely to only wear cheap frames while working cause that shit is expensive to replace.

    manwiththemachinegun3clipseSynthesisMoridin889FencingsaxH3Knuckles
  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Axen wrote: »
    Oh man, the Johansson movie got a lot wrong about GitS. Though one of the more annoying sticking points for me was how they made a big deal about how awesome and special and fancy the her cyborg body was. Like, that is the complete opposite from the manga/show. The Major's body is basically an off the shelf Discount Brand body specifically because in her line of work it gets destroyed all the time. It's like if you wear glasses and work a relatively active job where there is a high chance you'll break em you're likely to only wear cheap frames while working cause that shit is expensive to replace.

    More correctly, in the original anime she had a custom body by megatech that just looked like an off the shelf prosthetic body.

    In sac second gig it goes into a little more detail about how she had off the shelf bodies for most of her life, stretching back into childhood; but the body she used while in Section 9 was milspec.

    As evidenced when the powered armor dude tried to crush her.

    Some days I just want to smack people with a rolled up newspaper. Or a phone book.
    A folding chair is looking like an attractive option right now too...
    3clipseNightslyrRenzoSynthesisMoridin889FencingsaxThe DeliveratorH3KnucklesElvenshae
  • 3clipse3clipse I will build a labyrinth to house the cheese Registered User regular
    The biggest sin about the Johansson movie was the whole "find out who you really are" plot (aside from, you know, the whitewashing and shit).

    The Major knows exactly who she is. And she specifically chooses not to talk about it. Gah.

    Hobnail wrote: »
    It's okay to use Oddjob so long as you don't mind me deliberately obliterating your toilet with a precisely calibrated rectal assault
    MegaMekNightslyrDrakeRenzoGSMSynthesisMoridin889FencingsaxThe DeliveratorH3Knuckles
  • RenzoRenzo Registered User regular
    Axen wrote: »
    Oh man, the Johansson movie got a lot wrong about GitS. Though one of the more annoying sticking points for me was how they made a big deal about how awesome and special and fancy the her cyborg body was. Like, that is the complete opposite from the manga/show. The Major's body is basically an off the shelf Discount Brand body specifically because in her line of work it gets destroyed all the time. It's like if you wear glasses and work a relatively active job where there is a high chance you'll break em you're likely to only wear cheap frames while working cause that shit is expensive to replace.

    More correctly, in the original anime she had a custom body by megatech that just looked like an off the shelf prosthetic body.

    In sac second gig it goes into a little more detail about how she had off the shelf bodies for most of her life, stretching back into childhood; but the body she used while in Section 9 was milspec.

    As evidenced when the powered armor dude tried to crush her.

    Yeah, that's a good point. Miltary-grade, but completely mundane at first glance, by choice.

    H3Knuckles
  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    edited January 20
    One of the most endearing bits of Appleseed is Deunan and Bri have a totally normal long term relationship and he is literally just a brain, spine, and a few organs stuffed in a combat chassis after being blown up by a bomb, and neither of them ever whine about his condition.

    Seeing a cyborg lounging around in a tank top and complaining about his girlfriend's coffee does more to establish the setting than a dozen conversations about technology. It tells you in this world, cyborgs are people.

    manwiththemachinegun on
    NightslyrTaranisSynthesisMoridin889Commander ZoomDrakeFencingsaxschussRisenPhoenixH3KnucklesElvenshae
  • TaranisTaranis Registered User regular
    Renzo wrote: »
    Axen wrote: »
    Oh man, the Johansson movie got a lot wrong about GitS. Though one of the more annoying sticking points for me was how they made a big deal about how awesome and special and fancy the her cyborg body was. Like, that is the complete opposite from the manga/show. The Major's body is basically an off the shelf Discount Brand body specifically because in her line of work it gets destroyed all the time. It's like if you wear glasses and work a relatively active job where there is a high chance you'll break em you're likely to only wear cheap frames while working cause that shit is expensive to replace.

    More correctly, in the original anime she had a custom body by megatech that just looked like an off the shelf prosthetic body.

    In sac second gig it goes into a little more detail about how she had off the shelf bodies for most of her life, stretching back into childhood; but the body she used while in Section 9 was milspec.

    As evidenced when the powered armor dude tried to crush her.

    Yeah, that's a good point. Miltary-grade, but completely mundane at first glance, by choice.

    It was also owned by the government. IIRC

    / steam / [blizzard] taranis#1834 /
    SynthesisNightslyrMoridin889The DeliveratorH3KnucklesElvenshae
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited January 19
    Renzo wrote: »
    Axen wrote: »
    Oh man, the Johansson movie got a lot wrong about GitS. Though one of the more annoying sticking points for me was how they made a big deal about how awesome and special and fancy the her cyborg body was. Like, that is the complete opposite from the manga/show. The Major's body is basically an off the shelf Discount Brand body specifically because in her line of work it gets destroyed all the time. It's like if you wear glasses and work a relatively active job where there is a high chance you'll break em you're likely to only wear cheap frames while working cause that shit is expensive to replace.

    More correctly, in the original anime she had a custom body by megatech that just looked like an off the shelf prosthetic body.

    In sac second gig it goes into a little more detail about how she had off the shelf bodies for most of her life, stretching back into childhood; but the body she used while in Section 9 was milspec.

    As evidenced when the powered armor dude tried to crush her.

    Yeah, that's a good point. Miltary-grade, but completely mundane at first glance, by choice.

    (I'm a little surprised we're still talking about this, but wheee!)

    That had to do with the TV series having more time to elaborate on the actual consumer android/cyberbody industry than the manga did (by virtue of having lots of art books on top of the series and movie), and more than Oshii's movie (which didn't do it at all). Though I don't believe the specific manufacturer is ever named, the general trend from around 2010 to 2020 to 2030 (when Stand Alone Complex begins) for cyberbodies, male and female, was to put out a major model every few years (more or less depending on the size of the manufacturer), usually on a regional basis (though Japan does have a leg up in this area, they're hardly alone--this goes to the whole "Poseidon" conglomerate that appears in Appleseed). To do this, you license the appearance of someone, male or female, to use in perpetuity, and the bodies are mass-produced with some varying degrees of customization (usually hair and eyes, most obviously, whereas frame, build, and the face are less customizable for obvious reasons), until that particular product line runs its course. Maybe it has some fundamental design flaws. Maybe it's just outdated. Cyberbodies don't progress as fast as smart phones do in real life, but the changes can be fairly abrupt even at the lower end. Most mass-produced bodies are built like this for reasons of economics (and profit).

    What the Major has is a female consumer-grade cyberbody that was relatively popular ~2020, but completely removed from the market by 2030. It means that Kusanagi, and however many other women who were in the same market and haven't upgraded, all share the general facial and body characteristics of the original, a above-average-height Japanese woman about 168 cm tall who happened to be a model (in fact, she's almost certainly still alive by 2030, though presumably she would've aged). Cyberbodies, particularly consumer grade ones, unlike phones have surprisingly long lifetimes with regular maintenance--some of the original cyberbodies, that weren't fundamentally flawed or compromised, that are +20 years old are still working fine, even if they'd be crude by comparison. But unlike all her duplicates, the Major has crammed her body with military-grade modifications (though nothing as elaborate as in-built weapons or even multi-spectrum optics or additional cameras), primarily for speed and durability--and because it's government property, she can compete with more intentionally robust military-use cyberbodies (though she won't deflect bullets the way Kuze could, who had an actual military body that was just a few years old). It also means replacing it is an ordeal, both since the model is increasingly unsupported, and because the modifications were never supported, but the Ministry of Health and Welfare apparently is okay replacing their lost property (probably right up to the point where she vanishes entirely at the end of 2nd GIG, taking a lot of said property with her).

    So the Major is pretty mundane looking--most outside observers note she's a looker, but no more than the other people who were using the same body years earlier (and in fact, her choice of hair and eye color, justified here as a holdover from childhood, are considered a little off-putting). There are substantially much more bizarre looking cyberbodies in service--and the android marketplace is even more unusual, since most people are lot more reserved about what their body will look like, than the body of something halfway between a pet and a household appliance. This is why bodyguard androids, or even the Puma Sisters, look like insane biker chicks or dominatrices by comparison. The comparatively mundane "Jeri" series of gynoids, from the first season, are a victim of the short market place attention span...or you could buy a model that costs "more than a Ferrari," to quote a favorite line of mine. Cyberbodies, being even more expensive and important to the user, are less like smart phones and more like cars: a new model comes out every year, but the objective is still to churn out hundreds of thousands of them, and the good ones should last 10 years without issue.

    tl;dr--The Major's body is basically a 2020 Honda Accord (a pretty high end one, but nothing more extravagant) that is still around in 2030, but crammed with armored plates, a new engine, transmission, suspension, bulletproof tires, and an absurd amount of electronic warfare systems--and when it gets totaled, it gets replaced by...another 2020 Honda Accord.

    (I narrowly avoided puns involving "model" and "android marketplace" for everyone's benefit. Puns are evil.)

    Synthesis on
    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
    MegaMekCommander ZoomNightslyrFencingsaxsurrealitycheckH3KnucklesElvenshae
  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Synthesis wrote: »
    (I narrowly avoided puns involving "model" and "android marketplace" for everyone's benefit. Puns are evil.)

    But then you dropped the ball by going with car analogies.

    Should've just gone full evil. It's never a bad choice.

    DracomicronchromdomElvenshae
  • l_gl_g Registered User regular
    edited January 20
    Synthesis wrote: »

    tl;dr--The Major's body is basically a 2020 Honda Accord (a pretty high end one, but nothing more extravagant) that is still around in 2030, but crammed with armored plates, a new engine, transmission, suspension, bulletproof tires, and an absurd amount of electronic warfare systems--and when it gets totaled, it gets replaced by...another 2020 Honda Accord.

    All of this discussion about the nature of the protagonists and their conflicts in service of the law and government authority, an analogy involving a Honda, and a You're Under Arrest avatar... hmmmm.....

    I definitely think that the notion of a tech-infused, highly realistic urban setting where "horrible things" and "existential challenges" are possible principally because of the existence of technology tends to permeate what people think of as "cyberpunk". GitS being one of the single most influential works when it comes to cyberpunk aesthetic tends to see it branded as "cyberpunk", even if it's the case that it doesn't share all the thematic traits of ... "classic" (?) cyberpunk.

    Metal Gear Solid 4 is actually extremely cyberpunk, it just doesn't come in the "rainsoaked Hong Kong/Seattle/Tokyo noir" flavor of cyberpunk.

    l_g on
    Cole's Law: "Thinly sliced cabbage."
    manwiththemachinegun
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    Yes, but that's a Honda Today.

    Totally different car. :biggrin:

    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • l_gl_g Registered User regular
    Synthesis wrote: »
    Yes, but that's a Honda Today.

    Totally different car. :biggrin:

    "K-car" for "Kusanagi car"?

    Cole's Law: "Thinly sliced cabbage."
  • A duck!A duck! Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Unless the Major is a DLC unlock in Cyberpunk I think you're all done.

  • l_gl_g Registered User regular
    Actually on-topic thing:

    Has there been any discussion from CDPR about how they intend to translate combat mechanics from pnp to their game? Witcher had the advantage of not having an established RPG ruleset, such that W1 and W2 had entirely different combat rules, and W3 changed it up again from W2.

    I'm not terribly fond of heavy dice rolling in gunshots that I have to personally aim, because it leaves me with the feeling that the aiming is just a waste of time. On the other hand, making it pure dice-rolling doesn't feel great in games where the control isn't more abstract to begin with. Like in turn-based games, it being all dice-rolling is fine to me.

    Cole's Law: "Thinly sliced cabbage."
  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    l_g wrote: »
    Actually on-topic thing:

    Has there been any discussion from CDPR about how they intend to translate combat mechanics from pnp to their game? Witcher had the advantage of not having an established RPG ruleset, such that W1 and W2 had entirely different combat rules, and W3 changed it up again from W2.

    I'm not terribly fond of heavy dice rolling in gunshots that I have to personally aim, because it leaves me with the feeling that the aiming is just a waste of time. On the other hand, making it pure dice-rolling doesn't feel great in games where the control isn't more abstract to begin with. Like in turn-based games, it being all dice-rolling is fine to me.

    There has been zero word about anything regarding the game, we're all as desperate for info here as you are.

    I would really really doubt they would make the huge mistake of making RNG-based shooter combat. As much as I've played the newer XCOM games, I find it no end of stupid that a perfect point-blank shot against an ambushed enemy can still have one chance in twenty of failing. Even if it is a turn-based game rather than a shooter, it's still very aggravating to miss shots that should obviously land.

    Now that I think about it, the first STALKER game was actually pretty notorious for the fact that turning down the difficulty meant an increasing number of the player's shots were randomly disregarded (and the same was applied for shots fire at the player). Since the player gets shot at a lot more so the "bad" shots didn't matter much, it meant the player constantly got their ass shot off while they were making solid hits that the game would ignore. Unless you turned the difficulty to max (which made every bullet "count"), it was basically an FPS using an RNG for landing hits.

    Which was absolutely horrible, so I doubt we'll see the same here since guns will obviously be a big factor.

    Fencingsax
  • RenzoRenzo Registered User regular
    Given Witcher 3's action focus, I expect the same for Cyberpunk. Experience points, hit points, equipment, abilities, etc, but still action based.

    Fencingsax
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu ___________PIGEON _________San Diego, CA Registered User regular
    I think it's going to be playable only with a DDR pad in VR.

    GSMsurrealitycheckPMAversAegisElvenshae
  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    I look forward to cybergwent.

    Also I'm guessing the whole (witcher endings spoilers)
    ciri having visited a world that sounds suspiciously like cyberpunks
    is just going to remain a small Easter egg and not be a big thing

  • BigityBigity Lubbock, TXRegistered User regular
    I think it's going to be playable only with a DDR pad in VR.

    Well that might make sense for the Rocker. Optional to use a Guitar Hero controller too.

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    Elvenshae
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck the search for the means to put an end to things an end to speech is what enables the discourse to continue ~ * ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) excelsior * ~Registered User regular
    I think it's going to be playable only with a DDR pad in VR.

    this is the kind of insider info i pay for

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    MegaMek
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