I've always been more of an Awakening guy, but I heard Ascension had some great stories.
Funny how Mage is the least likely to get an RPG since magic games are the most prolific.
I mean, the game lets you change the opposing elder vampire into a lawn chair and summon up a margarita to relax with and that's a fairly mundane usage of the primary supernatural thing of the game. So it isn't so much the topic as the trying to reflect anything else about the game in play.
Speaking of paradox and potential rules fuckery, I stumbled upon another piece of apparently ancient Mage lore: The Whiskey Flask problem.
Essentially it boils down to this. Your mage gets fatally shot in the chest, but before anybody sees the wound, your mage pulls a whiskey flask (or bible or other eligible object) from their chest pocket showing the bullet embedded in it, rather than you.
The answer is that it depends on if you ascribe more to "average" vs "omniscient" hypothetical observer.
In either case, reality knows what you did. But a random passerby (or indeed, the shooter) may not. To most even sleeper witnesses, it would be entirely possible that you had the object in your pocket the whole time. There's a rote in Guide to the Technocracy that does precisely this and is coincidental.
Apparently there's a whole lot of schools of thought about how shit works in Mage. Almost all of it stems from 1e being probably too broken. A matter 1 effect could simply say "the gun was never loaded" and turn the bullet to air, in 1e.
The Vampire-into-lawn-furniture trick is actually in Mage 20 and is a Life 5 / Matter 5 rote.
There is, quite literally and by definition, nothing mundane about it
Mundane was a poor choice of words on my part, I wasn't implying a technical game definition word with that. I'm saying it isn't a creative usage of the abilities that system gives folks. Like, the actual RPG books where humans run everything in real time had long discussions on how to cope with the variety of effects that players could generate.
Speaking of paradox and potential rules fuckery, I stumbled upon another piece of apparently ancient Mage lore: The Whiskey Flask problem.
Essentially it boils down to this. Your mage gets fatally shot in the chest, but before anybody sees the wound, your mage pulls a whiskey flask (or bible or other eligible object) from their chest pocket showing the bullet embedded in it, rather than you.
Is this effect vulgar or coincidental?
If I were the ST, I'd allow it due to sheer ingenuity.
Speaking of paradox and potential rules fuckery, I stumbled upon another piece of apparently ancient Mage lore: The Whiskey Flask problem.
Essentially it boils down to this. Your mage gets fatally shot in the chest, but before anybody sees the wound, your mage pulls a whiskey flask (or bible or other eligible object) from their chest pocket showing the bullet embedded in it, rather than you.
Is this effect vulgar or coincidental?
It'd be vulgar without witnesses. So paradoxy, but not nearly as much as if it was blatant magic in front of a sleeper.
Undead Scottsman on
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AssuranIs swinging on the SpiralRegistered Userregular
I'm surprised they opened with W:TA instead of V:TM, given the fact the new RPG is coming out this year.
I'm surprised they opened with W:TA instead of V:TM, given the fact the new RPG is coming out this year.
Seems there might be a new Werewolf coming out too. I saw on the White Wolf Facebook page that they had a new Logo, which isn't being used for the video game marketing surprisingly.
VtM really was my first but I played a lot of Dark Ages Vampire that was fun and I learned a lot from someone about the History of that era
I got VtR because I was curious where it was going and I moved here and well found some really creepy people into it
VtM is funny as I played it with two different groups that were into Larping {I did not know the term for it until much later] They had formal wear from different eras {the group I met from GF of the time had two people really into cosplay {again I did not know the term for this at the time} one of which was a seamstress so they had made outfits ranging from French court to Victorian to 20's chic and so on to make it seem they were really in fashion and out of touch and place
During the comic shop/hobby store apocalypse here I got a box with a ton of books I got it on purpose because it had Mirrors and a bunch of Hunter books {the yellow and green era ones}
Flipping through they I kind of want to play a Hunter game just I don't know where to start and I am scared I will run into similar creepy people interested in playing it
Speaking of paradox and potential rules fuckery, I stumbled upon another piece of apparently ancient Mage lore: The Whiskey Flask problem.
Essentially it boils down to this. Your mage gets fatally shot in the chest, but before anybody sees the wound, your mage pulls a whiskey flask (or bible or other eligible object) from their chest pocket showing the bullet embedded in it, rather than you.
Is this effect vulgar or coincidental?
It'd be vulgar without witnesses. So paradoxy, but not nearly as much as if it was blatant magic in front of a sleeper.
Here's the problem!
Guide to the Technocracy, p 213 Holdout Weapon (••• Matter, •• Prime)
Not to be confused with the devices of the same general name, this Procedure allows the operative to create a small, easily concealed weapon that he "just happened" to have hidden on his person. The difficulty and believability of the Procedure depends entirely on what type of weapon the operative wishes to create (with the proviso that this Procedure cannot create weapons that are so large or oddly shaped that they could not easily be concealed on a person or in his clothes). For example, creating a knife that is "hidden up my sleeve" is easy, and almost certain not to cause any Paradox problems; creating a blaster pistol is tougher and more dangerous.
Though this Procedure was pioneered by NWO Operatives, it is now used by a wide variety of field agents.
Underlined emphasis mine. That's an official rote from the Technocracy sourcebook, which absolutely implies the effect of conjuring up and pulling out an object that you didn't actually have on your person previously is coincidental, simply because you could have had it on your person all along.
Now, if you were to use the effect as I described, where you basically don't even cast the rote until after you've been shot? Then yeah I'd agree probably vulgar since you're, in effect, healing a bullet wound (especially if the damage dice from the gunshot have already been rolled before the arete roll). But what if I cast a joint effect right as the gunman fires, so that I "just happen" to have the bible there all along (I'm a Chorister, after all, of course I'd have a copy of a holy book easily accessible). For extra fun, we'll toss in some Entropy to make sure the bullet hits the book and not flesh.
Still vulgar?
Not trying to get snarky or rude with anybody, Mage is the sort of game where these sorts of discussions are commonplace and there's an interesting theory about how people handle it based on a "hypothetical perceiver" of the action who is either an average person, or omniscient. My problem with the latter case is that reality always knows what you did, so having an omniscient observer means that magick is basically always vulgar, especially if it conjures any sort of noticeable results whatsoever. The problem with the average observer is that, well, an average person entering my house for the first time could believe that I have a room full of money (possibly at least, if unlikely), so conjuring it on the spot could be argued to be coincidental! (which I don't agree with). The same with always having just enough cash on person to pay for what you're trying to buy (within reason, which I believe is a Hollow One rote actually). In this last example, I feel like Domino Effect rules handle it well enough (the first time? Sure okay, the fourth? uhhhhm, that's unlikely and reflected in the difficulty of the dice roll at that point).
There are many schools of thought with respect to what vulgar vs. coincidental means, and to its credit the M20 book does review them and suggest that the ST and players agree on terms during the first session. It's one of the few things the M20 book does right, honestly.
I'm not sure why they're making a Werewolf game, either, because, at least among the people I know, the consensus is "who wants to play a werewolf game...?" and I generally get the impression that Vampire and Mage are much more popular.
If they've taken note how beloved V:tM:Bloodlines is then I'm sure they'll try to copy that and it'll be fun and I'll enjoy it, etc. - but I really would prefer to play another Vampire game or see them take a go at a Mage game. I'm genuinely curious what kind of clever attempt at creating the freeform magic system a studio could come up with.
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
edited February 2018
Apocalypse has a very passionate following, a lot of W:TA games were run down here. It's not expected, but not surprising either. I always thought Mage was the least popular of the big three.
I'd LOVE to see a Mage: The Awakening game, but the ideas I have in mind are probably way too ambitious for a studio to attempt. Like, different Paths/Orders having a completely different beginning.
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AssuranIs swinging on the SpiralRegistered Userregular
Based on conversations I had with the WW guys when they still went to Origins/Gen Con, Mage was the 3rd most popular setting.
Based on conversations I had with the WW guys when they still went to Origins/Gen Con, Mage was the 3rd most popular setting.
Behind Wraith and Changeling, right?
I kid
I'd be down for a Werewolf game. I think werewolf is probably the best for a video game, personally. Although I think maybe Forsaken might be better than Apoc, but I'm not sure.
WtA was a fun game and I would have liked to seen the whole who Gnosis vs Rage explored a bit better. The whole dynamic and the groundwork was there, but I rarely saw it leaned into very much.
I think my favorite WtA memory was my wolf getting rank basically by refusing orders.
He decided to look after a group of Kinfolk after he'd basically been told to do something else. The Sept alpha was like "yeah no fuck that guy you're good here be rank 2 now"
I think this deserves its own G&T thread, but here's the abridged version.
This action RPG has you step into the shoes - or paws - of a member of the Fianna tribe, an Irish group of werewolves who prize family over everything. Yet you’re an outcast, a veteran of battle that has turned into a lone wolf (literally). After spending some time alone in the wild, you’ll be called back to help your ex-pack out of a spot of bother, as something’s happened to your son, which probably doesn’t bode well. At its heart Werewolf: The Apocalypse is a story of the bond between a father and son, but you’d be forgiven for forgetting about your son thanks to all the general devastation in the world around you.
See, the whole game is built around managing your rage meter. As an emissary of Gaia, you have a special affinity to the natural world and you know that us humans have been royally screwing up. The more you find out about what we’ve been up to - pollution, drilling in natural areas, submitting to greed - the more your rage meter will increase. Sometimes it can be as simple as finding a document mentioning oil spills when you’re exploring as a Lupus, other times you’ll be talking to an NPC and they’ll mention some environmental hazard going down nearby.
Tearing apart your enemies looks deliciously fun. Be careful, though. Indulge too much in that ferocious behaviour and you’ll go into Frenzy mode, where your attacks become especially devastating. If you stay in Frenzy mode too long, you run the risk of being ‘touched by the Wyrm’, which is an immediate game over as its corrupting influence, well, corrupts you. To end Frenzy mode and ensure this doesn’t happen, you need to kill everyone around you, according to Desourteaux. Even your friends. “You have to kill your allies as well,” he says, “because you see them as a threat. When you go into Frenzy, you’re not able to recognise everybody - everyone looks like a threat”. Like an awkward family reunion, the game will remember that you massacred your friends. Your brutality will affect future quests, the ways NPCs behave towards you, and even what kind of enemies you face.
Ah yes, the enemies. All our conspiracy theories about mega-corporations being the bane of all evil are true in Werewolf: The Apocalypse. Controlling all these evil corporations is the Pantex organisation. Drilling for oil, destroying the environment for monetary gain, and generally being an ominous group who have quite a lot in common with the Illuminati, they’re bad news. “Pantex have taken all the blood from Gaia and now they’re taking the last breath”, as Desourteaux puts it. All thanks to their devotion to the Wyrm. “All the mega corporations do the bidding of the Wyrm because of their greed,” says Blanchard, “but Pantex goes one bit further because they know about the Wyrm”. They're deliberately tapping into the Wyrm’s power. Which perhaps isn’t that surprising considering that Pantex is run by vampires. And we all know how well vampires and werewolves get along...
(it's Pentex guys, I put it in the OP and everything)
Werewolf: The Apocalypse is “a fiction at the edge of reality”, says Desourteaux. It’s taken everything that’s wrong with our world and twisted it ever so slightly into something secretive and malevolent. It might appear like destroying the planet with environmental callousness is the central aim of Pantex’s companies, but Desourteaux tells me that as “you go deeper and deeper, things gets darker and darker”. Currently there’s no confirmed release date although it will be out on consoles and PC, so we’ll be eagerly keeping an eye out for any news as it comes our way.
....you know, after the last year, it's starting to feel like this "super dark and oppressive" WoD they're trying to recreate is.. well... kinda redundant.
Maybe it's time for "Superfriends, but with vampires and stuff"
I'm really, really tired of hurr durr grimderp oWoD fancanon. Can we get the oWoD that was in the book where the lows are lower, the highs are higher, weird art and radicalism abound and there's enough glorious architectural abundance to make the Batman Cartoon look realistic?
This action RPG has you step into the shoes - or paws - of a member of the Fianna tribe, an Irish group of werewolves who prize family over everything. Yet you’re an outcast, a veteran of battle that has turned into a lone wolf (literally). After spending some time alone in the wild, you’ll be called back to help your ex-pack out of a spot of bother, as something’s happened to your son, which probably doesn’t bode well. At its heart Werewolf: The Apocalypse is a story of the bond between a father and son, but you’d be forgiven for forgetting about your son thanks to all the general devastation in the world around you.
This action RPG has you step into the shoes - or paws - of a member of the Fianna tribe, an Irish group of werewolves who prize family over everything. Yet you’re an outcast, a veteran of battle that has turned into a lone wolf (literally). After spending some time alone in the wild, you’ll be called back to help your ex-pack out of a spot of bother, as something’s happened to your son, which probably doesn’t bode well. At its heart Werewolf: The Apocalypse is a story of the bond between a father and son, but you’d be forgiven for forgetting about your son thanks to all the general devastation in the world around you.
everything about this sounds awful.
Why do you think so? To me it sounds average, bland and forgettable, which is awful in a certain kind of sense, but not like awful awful.
This action RPG has you step into the shoes - or paws - of a member of the Fianna tribe, an Irish group of werewolves who prize family over everything. Yet you’re an outcast, a veteran of battle that has turned into a lone wolf (literally). After spending some time alone in the wild, you’ll be called back to help your ex-pack out of a spot of bother, as something’s happened to your son, which probably doesn’t bode well. At its heart Werewolf: The Apocalypse is a story of the bond between a father and son, but you’d be forgiven for forgetting about your son thanks to all the general devastation in the world around you.
everything about this sounds awful.
Why do you think so? To me it sounds average, bland and forgettable, which is awful in a certain kind of sense, but not like awful awful.
i'm just absolutely sick of the "good guy but still rogue/outcast plus really built" stereotype that shows up in every damn game lately
But you don't understand, no one gets it like the protagonist does, so he's a threat to the establishment and also misunderstood by friends and family, so he's gotta go it alone.
This action RPG has you step into the shoes - or paws - of a member of the Fianna tribe, an Irish group of werewolves who prize family over everything. Yet you’re an outcast, a veteran of battle that has turned into a lone wolf (literally). After spending some time alone in the wild, you’ll be called back to help your ex-pack out of a spot of bother, as something’s happened to your son, which probably doesn’t bode well. At its heart Werewolf: The Apocalypse is a story of the bond between a father and son, but you’d be forgiven for forgetting about your son thanks to all the general devastation in the world around you.
everything about this sounds awful.
Why do you think so? To me it sounds average, bland and forgettable, which is awful in a certain kind of sense, but not like awful awful.
i'm just absolutely sick of the "good guy but still rogue/outcast plus really built" stereotype that shows up in every damn game lately
So you didn't like Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice?
(Not trying to be a jerk here but there are games that absolutely nail the "outcast" trope.)
This action RPG has you step into the shoes - or paws - of a member of the Fianna tribe, an Irish group of werewolves who prize family over everything. Yet you’re an outcast, a veteran of battle that has turned into a lone wolf (literally). After spending some time alone in the wild, you’ll be called back to help your ex-pack out of a spot of bother, as something’s happened to your son, which probably doesn’t bode well. At its heart Werewolf: The Apocalypse is a story of the bond between a father and son, but you’d be forgiven for forgetting about your son thanks to all the general devastation in the world around you.
everything about this sounds awful.
Why do you think so? To me it sounds average, bland and forgettable, which is awful in a certain kind of sense, but not like awful awful.
i'm just absolutely sick of the "good guy but still rogue/outcast plus really built" stereotype that shows up in every damn game lately
So you didn't like Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice?
(Not trying to be a jerk here but there are games that absolutely nail the "outcast" trope.)
C20 physical copies are finally shipping out. My reward tier is only 10 months late, assuming the FedEx delivery estimate is accurate. Which is admittedly a pretty huge drop from the lateness of M20 and EX3, so bravo to them for streamlining the process this much, I guess.
It's a bittersweet feeling, knowing that this is the last product I'll ever get from the White Wolf lineage. That's a 25 year customer relationship that managed to endure a lot of stupid bullshit before Rich Thomas finally found where my breaking point is.
Realizing lately that I don't really trust or respect basically any of the moderators here. So, good luck with life, friends! Hit me up on Twitter @DesertLeviathan
C20 physical copies are finally shipping out. My reward tier is only 10 months late, assuming the FedEx delivery estimate is accurate. Which is admittedly a pretty huge drop from the lateness of M20 and EX3, so bravo to them for streamlining the process this much, I guess.
It's a bittersweet feeling, knowing that this is the last product I'll ever get from the White Wolf lineage. That's a 25 year customer relationship that managed to endure a lot of stupid bullshit before Rich Thomas finally found where my breaking point is.
Posts
I mean, the game lets you change the opposing elder vampire into a lawn chair and summon up a margarita to relax with and that's a fairly mundane usage of the primary supernatural thing of the game. So it isn't so much the topic as the trying to reflect anything else about the game in play.
There is, quite literally and by definition, nothing mundane about it
I can only imagine the Paradox that invokes.
(And that reminds me, what better dev than them for a Mage game, heh.)
Essentially it boils down to this. Your mage gets fatally shot in the chest, but before anybody sees the wound, your mage pulls a whiskey flask (or bible or other eligible object) from their chest pocket showing the bullet embedded in it, rather than you.
Is this effect vulgar or coincidental?
In either case, reality knows what you did. But a random passerby (or indeed, the shooter) may not. To most even sleeper witnesses, it would be entirely possible that you had the object in your pocket the whole time. There's a rote in Guide to the Technocracy that does precisely this and is coincidental.
Apparently there's a whole lot of schools of thought about how shit works in Mage. Almost all of it stems from 1e being probably too broken. A matter 1 effect could simply say "the gun was never loaded" and turn the bullet to air, in 1e.
Mundane was a poor choice of words on my part, I wasn't implying a technical game definition word with that. I'm saying it isn't a creative usage of the abilities that system gives folks. Like, the actual RPG books where humans run everything in real time had long discussions on how to cope with the variety of effects that players could generate.
If I were the ST, I'd allow it due to sheer ingenuity.
It'd be vulgar without witnesses. So paradoxy, but not nearly as much as if it was blatant magic in front of a sleeper.
Seems there might be a new Werewolf coming out too. I saw on the White Wolf Facebook page that they had a new Logo, which isn't being used for the video game marketing surprisingly.
I got VtR because I was curious where it was going and I moved here and well found some really creepy people into it
VtM is funny as I played it with two different groups that were into Larping {I did not know the term for it until much later] They had formal wear from different eras {the group I met from GF of the time had two people really into cosplay {again I did not know the term for this at the time} one of which was a seamstress so they had made outfits ranging from French court to Victorian to 20's chic and so on to make it seem they were really in fashion and out of touch and place
During the comic shop/hobby store apocalypse here I got a box with a ton of books I got it on purpose because it had Mirrors and a bunch of Hunter books {the yellow and green era ones}
Flipping through they I kind of want to play a Hunter game just I don't know where to start and I am scared I will run into similar creepy people interested in playing it
Here's the problem!
Underlined emphasis mine. That's an official rote from the Technocracy sourcebook, which absolutely implies the effect of conjuring up and pulling out an object that you didn't actually have on your person previously is coincidental, simply because you could have had it on your person all along.
Now, if you were to use the effect as I described, where you basically don't even cast the rote until after you've been shot? Then yeah I'd agree probably vulgar since you're, in effect, healing a bullet wound (especially if the damage dice from the gunshot have already been rolled before the arete roll). But what if I cast a joint effect right as the gunman fires, so that I "just happen" to have the bible there all along (I'm a Chorister, after all, of course I'd have a copy of a holy book easily accessible). For extra fun, we'll toss in some Entropy to make sure the bullet hits the book and not flesh.
Still vulgar?
Not trying to get snarky or rude with anybody, Mage is the sort of game where these sorts of discussions are commonplace and there's an interesting theory about how people handle it based on a "hypothetical perceiver" of the action who is either an average person, or omniscient. My problem with the latter case is that reality always knows what you did, so having an omniscient observer means that magick is basically always vulgar, especially if it conjures any sort of noticeable results whatsoever. The problem with the average observer is that, well, an average person entering my house for the first time could believe that I have a room full of money (possibly at least, if unlikely), so conjuring it on the spot could be argued to be coincidental! (which I don't agree with). The same with always having just enough cash on person to pay for what you're trying to buy (within reason, which I believe is a Hollow One rote actually). In this last example, I feel like Domino Effect rules handle it well enough (the first time? Sure okay, the fourth? uhhhhm, that's unlikely and reflected in the difficulty of the dice roll at that point).
I'm not sure why they're making a Werewolf game, either, because, at least among the people I know, the consensus is "who wants to play a werewolf game...?" and I generally get the impression that Vampire and Mage are much more popular.
If they've taken note how beloved V:tM:Bloodlines is then I'm sure they'll try to copy that and it'll be fun and I'll enjoy it, etc. - but I really would prefer to play another Vampire game or see them take a go at a Mage game. I'm genuinely curious what kind of clever attempt at creating the freeform magic system a studio could come up with.
I'd LOVE to see a Mage: The Awakening game, but the ideas I have in mind are probably way too ambitious for a studio to attempt. Like, different Paths/Orders having a completely different beginning.
Behind Wraith and Changeling, right?
I kid
I'd be down for a Werewolf game. I think werewolf is probably the best for a video game, personally. Although I think maybe Forsaken might be better than Apoc, but I'm not sure.
WtA was a fun game and I would have liked to seen the whole who Gnosis vs Rage explored a bit better. The whole dynamic and the groundwork was there, but I rarely saw it leaned into very much.
Shit is serious for some (kin)folks.
That sure leaves an impression.
He decided to look after a group of Kinfolk after he'd basically been told to do something else. The Sept alpha was like "yeah no fuck that guy you're good here be rank 2 now"
https://www.gamesradar.com/humans-have-fcked-up-the-world-and-in-the-rpg-werewolf-the-apocalypse-the-werewolves-are-taking-it-back/
I think this deserves its own G&T thread, but here's the abridged version.
(it's Pentex guys, I put it in the OP and everything)
Maybe it's time for "Superfriends, but with vampires and stuff"
Depends on which book is your primary source. Whatever game book is your primary is "secretly behind it all."
everything about this sounds awful.
i'm just absolutely sick of the "good guy but still rogue/outcast plus really built" stereotype that shows up in every damn game lately
Also he has some bitchin' tats and a sweet ride.
(Not trying to be a jerk here but there are games that absolutely nail the "outcast" trope.)
She wasn't an outcast at all.
It's a bittersweet feeling, knowing that this is the last product I'll ever get from the White Wolf lineage. That's a 25 year customer relationship that managed to endure a lot of stupid bullshit before Rich Thomas finally found where my breaking point is.
Which specific thing was your breaking point?