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Let's play KotOR 2: The Sith Lords together - Week 7: Malachor.

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  • SilverWindSilverWind Registered User regular
    Kreia on Dantooine is like a mom who takes her kid to a piano recital and waits outside of the hall, pacing

    And the kid pulls off like an incredible performance, something that pushes at the understanding of music

    And then the judges fail the kid. Not just fail--they decide to break the kid's fingers so they can never perform again

    So like any reasonable parent, Kreia kills the judges, and sets fire to the piano hall


    So good <3<3<3

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  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    I think the most damning thing about the Jedi Council in this game comes in that conversation. There's a lot to unpack there, but the thing that leaps out at me the hardest is the fact that when they talk to you, they never talk about what you've done. They never talk about the problems they failed to solve, often through inaction, that you made better. It's not about the lives you've saved, the strength you've lended to others, the who of who you are. And if you're of the Dark Side, it's not even about the atrocities you've committed.

    The only thing they care about it your past. What you are. What happened to you. That you survived it. That you have the capacity to survive more. You are literally Nihilus's opposite number, and the fact that you can survive without the Force, that you represent the idea that the Force is not necessary to life and that people can live without it and that the Jedi aren't necessary—they look at this horrible thing that has been done to you, and that's why you need to be dealt with.

    I am not at all sorry to see them go.

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  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    SilverWind wrote: »
    Kreia on Dantooine is like a mom who takes her kid to a piano recital and waits outside of the hall, pacing

    And the kid pulls off like an incredible performance, something that pushes at the understanding of music

    And then the judges fail the kid. Not just fail--they decide to break the kid's fingers so they can never perform again

    So like any reasonable parent, Kreia kills the judges, and sets fire to the piano hall


    So good <3<3<3

    That’s ultimately why I think that her decision to kill the Council wasn’t set in stone, until they harm the Exile. I think she was still holding out hope, that if they could show that they were wrong for casting you out, that the Jedi could be saved, and by continuing to see you as a threat, prove to her that they’re too far gone

  • SilverWindSilverWind Registered User regular
    Yeah, it proves just how short sighted and stagnant the Council is; and like what happens when she... makes them see as the Exile; they can't adapt to losing their connection to the Force, and die



    Oh, I got to the new lines between Kreia and Atris, where Kreia says she has been in front of Atrice twice, both times with the Exile, because she was there the first time when the Council banished you.

    Atris says she did as Kreia asked on that day--to banish you.

    It may seem strange and even contradictory, but I think both are speaking figuratively there. Darth Traya, as the betrayed and betrayer, was there in that moment; Atris drew on her hurt, followed what it told her to do, and lashed out to hurt right back. That's what it means, to me. And reading it figuratively makes the scene make sense.

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  • SilverWindSilverWind Registered User regular
    Also also: KOTOR 2 romance scene: 90% of options are "go away / please go away"

    Final 10% leads to you two sitting and staring at each other

    Good stuff

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  • JedocJedoc In the scuppers with the staggers and jagsRegistered User regular
    I guess a bunch of rigidly disciplined space monks don't have the hottest booty calls.

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  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    Javen wrote: »
    SilverWind wrote: »
    Kreia on Dantooine is like a mom who takes her kid to a piano recital and waits outside of the hall, pacing

    And the kid pulls off like an incredible performance, something that pushes at the understanding of music

    And then the judges fail the kid. Not just fail--they decide to break the kid's fingers so they can never perform again

    So like any reasonable parent, Kreia kills the judges, and sets fire to the piano hall


    So good <3<3<3

    That’s ultimately why I think that her decision to kill the Council wasn’t set in stone, until they harm the Exile. I think she was still holding out hope, that if they could show that they were wrong for casting you out, that the Jedi could be saved, and by continuing to see you as a threat, prove to her that they’re too far gone

    Kreia's ultimate goal was for them to see the Exile and realise that they were wrong, and that Kreia was right.

  • SilverWindSilverWind Registered User regular
    The Jedi Council is absolutely sure that you're basically Force mind-controlling your teammates, even if you don't mean to. And the Exile is (or can be) troubled by that.

    In the "romance" scene where you point out this fear to Visas, she assures you that's not it, she's following you because you're a good, natural leader, and it's her choice to follow you

    But also that yeah she'd totally die for you and that she's loved you from the instant she first heard you and also she needs you to love and be with her in the way she knows everyone else needs you to love and be with them and please I beg you

    And uuuuuuuh maybe the Council was on to something???


    Woofa, the last act of KOTOR2 is so good, but it's also where the holes poke through. Jumps from location to location without smaller conversations or actions in between. How did Handmaiden even get Kreia to Telos without the Ebon Hawk

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  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    I remember being so incredibly angry at that Council scene that it pretty much permanently turned me off to the idea as the Jedi as an organ of any state level government. As wandering cowboys/samurai righting wrongs, Jedi are fantastic. As holders of actual political power? They screw up pretty much without fail.

  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    In spite of its warts, I think the ending of the game is the strongest section. Who knows if it'll hold up in the Restored version! But I've always really liked the base game's ending, even if it felt incomplete

    And Dantooine - Telos - The Ravager is such a good introduction to the beginning of the end. The confrontation with the council, the confrontation with Atris (and how much less important it is than the confrontation that was just an argument) and finally meeting Nihilus, your opposite number. Every bit of it feels right.

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  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    I don’t think the council are necessarily wrong

  • SilverWindSilverWind Registered User regular
    Maybe when your Exile is dark sided, but half of the time the Exile has saved like four worlds and an untold amount of lives and isn't trying to dominate /mind control people. Their actions may have swayed more than one person back from the Dark Side

    But they don't even really contemplate your actions post-Malachor.

    As for the Exile's wound growing and causing more issues? I dunno! Maybe it can be healed? Maybe it isn't that bad. At most they had a knee jerk reaction


    By the by, Atris and the Sith holocrons imply that creating Force wounds are intentional, and act as beacons? Surely for the True Sith, right?

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  • PiptheFairPiptheFair Frequently not in boats. Registered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    I don’t think the council are necessarily wrong

    they were wrong for the right reasons

    their response to finding out the exiles power was impulsive and selfish

  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    If only for practical reasons, trying to depower the Exile when they're the only one who can even stand up near Nihilus, let alone beat him, is, well, shortsighted. I'm sure it could've waited another week.

    Even if Kreia had let them do it, they would have all died.

  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    edited February 2018
    I think it's worth noting that the last section of pre-Malachor also establishes pretty firmly that Revan had a Force bonds thing going that was probably very similar to the Exile, and that the two of them expressed it in different ways and were viewed differently because of it. People never realized it about Revan because they didn't have to do the same things that the Exile did, but it's there, in the text, if you look for it.

    But this week is Malachor! My favorite part of the game.

    Malachor's kind of weird because up to this point you might have thought you weren't a super bad-ass Force user way beyond all others, but you are a walking hurricane who can't be stopped. It's like Kreia taking her limiters off awakened you to the fullness of your own potential, almost.

    Wyborn on
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  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    Wyborn wrote: »
    I think it's worth noting that the last section of pre-Malachor also establishes pretty firmly that Revan had a Force bonds thing going that was probably very similar to the Exile, and that the two of them expressed it in different ways and were viewed differently because of it. People never realized it about Revan because they didn't have to do the same things that the Exile did, but it's there, in the text, if you look for it.

    But this week is Malachor! My favorite part of the game.

    Malachor's kind of weird because up to this point you might have thought you weren't a super bad-ass Force user way beyond all others, but you are a walking hurricane who can't be stopped. It's like Kreia taking her limiters off awakened you to the fullness of your own potential, almost.

    Yeah, I definitely didn't notice it the first few playthroughs, but eventually, they mention a lot about how people were naturally drawn to Revan, and he was a natural leader and had a gift for getting people on his side, and they're all pretty huge red flags

  • EddyEddy Gengar the Bittersweet Registered User regular
    Jedoc wrote: »
    I guess a bunch of rigidly disciplined space monks don't have the hottest booty calls.

    I've seen Satan's Alley, I know what's up

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4paGAvvFWRk

    "and the morning stars I have seen
    and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    Wyborn wrote: »
    I think it's worth noting that the last section of pre-Malachor also establishes pretty firmly that Revan had a Force bonds thing going that was probably very similar to the Exile, and that the two of them expressed it in different ways and were viewed differently because of it. People never realized it about Revan because they didn't have to do the same things that the Exile did, but it's there, in the text, if you look for it.

    But this week is Malachor! My favorite part of the game.

    Malachor's kind of weird because up to this point you might have thought you weren't a super bad-ass Force user way beyond all others, but you are a walking hurricane who can't be stopped. It's like Kreia taking her limiters off awakened you to the fullness of your own potential, almost.

    People say that the ending of KOTOR 2 is bad but I've always really loved finally cutting loose on the Trayus Academy. It's one of the only parts of the game with a bunch of force users in it!

  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    edited February 2018
    Trayus Academy might be the only combat gauntlet in the game that feels as good as it should, though it should be noted that I say this as a dark side force user who likes taking Force Storm and killing a dozen dark Jedi at once with it.

    Wyborn on
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  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    My favourite is taking mind trick and dominate mind and getting the apprentices to kill their masters.

    this is a light side option

  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    Wait, you can talk to people?

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  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    As I mentioned, going full blaster Jedi makes the entire end game stretch hilariously awesome. Most of the time, with each dual pistol force speed burst, you're downing Dark Jedi Masters and Sith Lords on the third or forth round, of five.

  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    Wyborn wrote: »
    Wait, you can talk to people?
    No it’s the beast trick equivalent for people. No one ever uses it but it’s ballin.

  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    Well, for most of the game it's not very useful because everything saves and there isn't normally one super cool guy you want on your side. At the endgame though, where it's 20 people and one is a Sith Marauder? Hit that shit.

  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    Just force storm and kill everyone in the room and everyone in the next two rooms because force storm is buggy and absolutely hits through walls.

  • RainfallRainfall Registered User regular
    Force Storm is very very very silly and overpowered.

  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    Force storm totally kneecaps the entire rest of the combat system. It's not overpowered in the fun way, it's overpowered in the "breaks the game" way.

    I guess it's fun too. I guess. But what would also be fun would be if any of the other force powers in the game had a reason to exist.

  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    Well

    Force Crush does completely trivialize Sion in a way even Force Storm doesn't, so that's not nothing

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  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    I'm kind of fine with that to an extent because I never felt like SIon was supposed to be difficult, in thematic or plot terms and because otherwise Consulars are shit out of luck in a one to one fight. Like,
    Kreia and her lightsabers
    absolutely ruined my shit on a character who otherwise took a swan dive through the entire game.

    Part of the plot of the game that I think is deliberate is that
    the external threat of Sion and Nihilus aren't actually a big deal.

  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    I mean the second one of those is a massive threat, just specifically not to the Exile.

  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    I want to go and talk about the Ravager raid, because that sequence is excellent. But first, the single most badass line in the game is during the Sion fight, and it's NOT one of the will check lines.

    "As long as the dark places of this world flow through the cracks of my flesh, I will never be killed."

    "Tell yourself that a hundred times, and I will strike you down a hundred times."

  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    Gundi wrote: »
    I mean the second one of those is a massive threat, just specifically not to the Exile.

    Eh, the Mandalorian strike team would have blown up his ship anyway. Sure the Exile helped, but they did it in a mundane way. Nihilus would die from getting his spaceship blowed up.

  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    edited February 2018
    Weren't they pretty explicit that if the ship was destroyed without Nihilus being killed he would still kill everything on the planet anyway? He's basically Galactus at this point

    Wyborn on
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  • ThetherooThetheroo Registered User regular
    They could have been a bit more explicit about drawing parallels between Nihilus and The Exile, but that is kinda difficult when you can't really definitively characterize The Exile.

  • TerrendosTerrendos Decorative Monocle Registered User regular
    "You seek to erode my will. You will not succeed."

    <You have eroded Sion's will.>

  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    With a female Exile all that's missing is, "B-baka."

  • SilverWindSilverWind Registered User regular
    edited February 2018
    Gonna finish this today!

    I just got to the part where you play as the Remote

    Man, why

    This game is so weird in some places


    edit: I recall the first time I played through this, I didn't carefully have the Exile kill all the beasties roaming around, leading to some frantic yelling and near deaths

    SilverWind on
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  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    I assume they intended to have something where every companion gets a little mission, but I guess the remote's was the easiest to finish and implement.

  • SilverWindSilverWind Registered User regular
    Hm, that makes sense since there are four spots, and four party members on Malachor!


    Well, I finished the game for the second time. I must say that I liked this light sided run a lot more than my first dark sided one. But next time, if there's a next time, I will totes be a Jedi Master with Force Storm

    The new content is good--I even enjoyed the HK factory. (The HK-50s were just so comedic.) It came at entirely the wrong time though--I'd have probably split the party in three at the return to Onderon and HK (and I guess Bao Dur since it was apparently intended for him to help and die in the effort??) diverge away at that point

    So many empty rooms in the Trayus Academy, so much cut content. And yet it's such a good ending despite it all. The long talk, the fact that there's no great last minute twist or revelation; everything is done, it just needs to be ended. I don't know if anything has an ending quite like that save for Witcher 2?

    Also Force-wielding three lightsabers is the coolest move why doesn't anything else in Star Wars use it, dear god



    There will never be a Star Wars story like KOTOR 2 though, because they will never have another story about a person relinquishing the Force--and becoming better for it, stronger. They're not going to have a giant treatise on the ethics of a god-Force that decides peoples' fates and just outright finds it OK for some good people (planetfuls, really) to eat it while some bad ones live on forever

    So KOTOR 2 will always have a special place in the universe, and this special place in my heart

    Thanks for playing and talking KOTOR 2 together with me, everyone <3

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  • WheatBun01WheatBun01 Face It, Tiger Registered User regular
    when this started up i was real busy but i've somehow managed to get all the way to ravager in like two weeks - it's been a ton of fun reading people's takes on this game and i kind of want to do another community let's play after this one, and appreciate you guys putting this one together.

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