I'd buy that a "copy" of you is still you, provided the original is immediately destroyed.
Otherwise the divergence in perspective creates a different consciousness.
There can be only one!
No offense, but this is ridiculous to me. If I shoot you in the head, then make a copy, it's "you", but if I make a copy, then shoot you in the head it's not you - and that second part of the sentence doesn't make you change your mind about the first?
I don't see why it would.
If you shot me in the head and I woke up several miles away in a new body, how is that different from me having been simply knocked unconscious and carried to the hospital?
However, if I got out of the hospital and drove home to find myself already there, I would definitely consider the guy standing in my house to not be me.
If only because I can't be in two places at once.
The "you" that arrived home from the hospital would have the same connection to the person in your house as the "you" that died - i.e. none at all.
It would be, I shoot you in the head. You die. You don't wake up several miles away, a copy of you opens its eyes several miles away. The copy doesn't worry about whether it's the same person or not because that line of thought is uncomfortable.
I mean, seriously, imagine this technology was real. You are in a room, holding a pistol, with your clone body lying on a table, ready to receive a copy of your memories the moment you die. You put the barrel of the gun to your head. You're telling me you'd happily pull that trigger? You're staring at the "empty" body and seriously believe that you are somehow going to be "moved" into it?
I often see people say on this topic "oh, it's cut and paste, not copy and paste".
There is no such thing as "cut and paste", the computer just does copy + paste + delete the original.
I wonder how the technology affects people with mental issues, which are caused by brain chemistry or crossed wires. Can you take someone who is mentally impaired, but them in a working sleeve and they can develop normally going forward?
I'd buy that a "copy" of you is still you, provided the original is immediately destroyed.
Otherwise the divergence in perspective creates a different consciousness.
There can be only one!
In the RPG eclipse phase that uses this type of technology heavily there are some options. They have psycho surgery that can allow your copies to reintegrate the memories back into one again but it is tricky and can have side effects. Also they have rules where if a fork of you is around long enough it is an independent being and treated as such so now basically you made a twin brother or sister. Then they also have unusual habitats such as one that basically the entire population is the same "person" sleeved into a variety of male and female bodies.
I wonder how the technology affects people with mental issues, which are caused by brain chemistry or crossed wires. Can you take someone who is mentally impaired, but them in a working sleeve and they can develop normally going forward?
In theory if the mental impairment was due to a physical defect transfering them to a body without that defect should allow them to develop normally. I am sure there would be therapy and training needed but over time it should work.
Its also a thing in the books that people have to live a full lifespan each time if they are not a meth. Like get a clone copy at 20 and having to live until you die at 90. Meaning you have to spend 40 years with a plus 50 body. It apparently takes a toll on the psyche and a lot do what Ortega's grandmother does and only sleeve up for special occasions after the second go around.
So most people are used to seeing people in only one sleve.
I get that regular, everyday folk, would be used to only seeing people in one sleeve. But, most of the show is centered around meths or people who are rich enough for this not to be an issue. And they never seem to consider that the sleeve isn't what it appears to be. I kept thinking of the possibility throughout the show, but maybe I'm just a skeptical person.
I thought Rei might not actually be Rei
I thought someone might be using either of the Bancrofts' sleeves at various times
I thought either of the Bancrofts might be using other sleeves themselves.
And, to show that it does happen, We see the Bancroft's daughter using Miriam's sleeve at some point, just because its more fun.
Rei also uses many sleeves effectively.
The fightdome couple will be resleeved and not for the first time.
And why was video evidence taken so seriously, when it seems like it wasn't too difficult to either fake it or just use a clone sleeve?
Its also a thing in the books that people have to live a full lifespan each time if they are not a meth. Like get a clone copy at 20 and having to live until you die at 90. Meaning you have to spend 40 years with a plus 50 body. It apparently takes a toll on the psyche and a lot do what Ortega's grandmother does and only sleeve up for special occasions after the second go around.
So most people are used to seeing people in only one sleve.
I get that regular, everyday folk, would be used to only seeing people in one sleeve. But, most of the show is centered around meths or people who are rich enough for this not to be an issue. And they never seem to consider that the sleeve isn't what it appears to be. I kept thinking of the possibility throughout the show, but maybe I'm just a skeptical person.
I thought Rei might not actually be Rei
I thought someone might be using either of the Bancrofts' sleeves at various times
I thought either of the Bancrofts might be using other sleeves themselves.
And, to show that it does happen, We see the Bancroft's daughter using Miriam's sleeve at some point, just because its more fun.
Rei also uses many sleeves effectively.
The fightdome couple will be resleeved and not for the first time.
And why was video evidence taken so seriously, when it seems like it wasn't too difficult to either fake it or just use a clone sleeve?
Yes is a serious issue with this kind of technology especially when you are rich enough to be able to do clones. Look at kovacs sister kept appearing to him in various different sleeves from little girls to older men. Proving you are you gets problematic in situations like that. Probably also why double sleeving gets the law laid down pretty hard when it is found out even when you clearly did something good with it.
I'd buy that a "copy" of you is still you, provided the original is immediately destroyed.
Otherwise the divergence in perspective creates a different consciousness.
There can be only one!
No offense, but this is ridiculous to me. If I shoot you in the head, then make a copy, it's "you", but if I make a copy, then shoot you in the head it's not you - and that second part of the sentence doesn't make you change your mind about the first?
I don't see why it would.
If you shot me in the head and I woke up several miles away in a new body, how is that different from me having been simply knocked unconscious and carried to the hospital?
However, if I got out of the hospital and drove home to find myself already there, I would definitely consider the guy standing in my house to not be me.
If only because I can't be in two places at once.
The "you" that arrived home from the hospital would have the same connection to the person in your house as the "you" that died - i.e. none at all.
It would be, I shoot you in the head. You die. You don't wake up several miles away, a copy of you opens its eyes several miles away. The copy doesn't worry about whether it's the same person or not because that line of thought is uncomfortable.
I mean, seriously, imagine this technology was real. You are in a room, holding a pistol, with your clone body lying on a table, ready to receive a copy of your memories the moment you die. You put the barrel of the gun to your head. You're telling me you'd happily pull that trigger? You're staring at the "empty" body and seriously believe that you are somehow going to be "moved" into it?
I often see people say on this topic "oh, it's cut and paste, not copy and paste".
There is no such thing as "cut and paste", the computer just does copy + paste + delete the original.
I thought that the Stack kept a low key version of your consciousness running in it, like in a coma or dreamless sleep, and that while it was definitely possible to copy the stack (needlecasting, double sleeving), if you die they stick your original stack into a new body and once you regain your senses you're you
if that's not the case you're absolutely right, it seems to definitely not be the case in the book but the show is a little more loose about that
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Zxerolfor the smaller pieces, my shovel wouldn't doso i took off my boot and used my shoeRegistered Userregular
I'd buy that a "copy" of you is still you, provided the original is immediately destroyed.
Otherwise the divergence in perspective creates a different consciousness.
There can be only one!
In the RPG eclipse phase that uses this type of technology heavily there are some options. They have psycho surgery that can allow your copies to reintegrate the memories back into one again but it is tricky and can have side effects. Also they have rules where if a fork of you is around long enough it is an independent being and treated as such so now basically you made a twin brother or sister. Then they also have unusual habitats such as one that basically the entire population is the same "person" sleeved into a variety of male and female bodies.
In one of the Eclipse Phase games I played, my character's motivation was essentially was a dedication to find this apparent fork of his, which hitherto has started a criminal concern while he was in deep sleep, and murder them because he had a single-minded dedication that there can only be one of himself in the universe. But he was also a sapient bear* so who might have not been on the level to begin with. Forks a pretty fun to play with in that game.
(*Bears are not technically a valid uplift in the game, but the GM let me roll with it, because EP is weird and is more or less Altered Carbon except with more techno-industrial, cosmic horror and hyperintelligent octopuses and space whales that live in the sun.)
Having been thinking about Altered Carbon(or the Takeshi Kovacs Trilogy, the book series name) all day, I have come to a conclusion about Stacks and Consciousness:
Every person raising objections about how a copy of your consciousness in another body is not the you that exists now(and all the other practical, philosophical and metaphysical objections)? You right! Its also irrelevant. The winners write the history books and the other side won. In fact they won a long time ago and every person that objected has since been labeled a crank/nut/terrorist. Just like in the show. Its a Cyberpunk show after all.
In many ways all the arguments back and forth is kind of like arguing AGAINST the American Revolution now. Even if you have cogent arguments about how the Founding Fathers where a bunch of hypocritical rich Landowners, several who owned slaves. trying to argue it today would get you rated as a crank from academia. That is how the reality of Altered Carbon works. The Meths won and everybody else has been showed into the margins of history.
To the point that people that have objections(like Ortegas mother) to the system, don't even question how the system works. She believes that the stack containing Ortegas Grandmother is inside the male sleve and that its the real her. Even if she doesn't like it.
Is this show Cyberpunk or what?
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
You may be thinking of grimdark rather than cyberpunk? Cyberpunk traditionally features individualistic characters rebelling against the corrupt corporate/government status quo rather being ground down into acceptance. What you describe is more reminiscent of 1984 than Neuromancer.
Anyway I don't think your point even works in setting, even if every person who thought resleeving was pointless died without a copy while those who accepted it lived on, every single day more people are born who could think critically for themselves and come to the same conclusion. It would continue to be a point of contention forever.
Multisleeving and the possibility of copies of your stack being spun in virtual and tortured brings up interesting questions. Like, if someone gets a copy of my stack and tries to hold it hostage, how much do I care? What about copies of people I care about? What if they make a bunch of copies and a bunch of different parties have them? Do we mostly make a decision as a society to just not think about it, kind of like how we don't think about factory meat farming or sweat shops now?
Also, if stacks can be copied and tortured in virtual, and clones can be grown, how do we secure anything? Passwords and biometrics are both out of the question. I wonder if that eye computer system serves that purpose.
You may be thinking of grimdark rather than cyberpunk? Cyberpunk traditionally features individualistic characters rebelling against the corrupt corporate/government status quo rather being ground down into acceptance. What you describe is more reminiscent of 1984 than Neuromancer.
Anyway I don't think your point even works in setting, even if every person who thought resleeving was pointless died without a copy while those who accepted it lived on, every single day more people are born who could think critically for themselves and come to the same conclusion. It would continue to be a point of contention forever.
As you can see by the protests there is a portion of the population that is still in active contention with the usage of stacks. That said people willing to use stacks have such a competitive advantage simply by what time alots you that pretty rapidly those who don't sleeve would be a poor fringe element lacking in real power.
I'm having fun with this show, but right from the get go it has major plot holes that only get worse as the show progresses. Like,
The main character is supposed to have been in cold storage for 250 years. Yet, he comes out talking about all kinds of high tech stuff and knows enough about the world to be a master detective.
Or the idea that the Envoys could break in and insert some code into the system that would limit everyone to 100 years. Code can be changed and updated. And it's not like the stacks systems wouldn't have so many redundancies built in that this plan could ever work.
There are just so many inconsistencies that keep drawing me out of the show.
The skinhead as Grandma, though. Fucking fantastic. I love it.
You may be thinking of grimdark rather than cyberpunk? Cyberpunk traditionally features individualistic characters rebelling against the corrupt corporate/government status quo rather being ground down into acceptance. What you describe is more reminiscent of 1984 than Neuromancer.
Anyway I don't think your point even works in setting, even if every person who thought resleeving was pointless died without a copy while those who accepted it lived on, every single day more people are born who could think critically for themselves and come to the same conclusion. It would continue to be a point of contention forever.
As you can see by the protests there is a portion of the population that is still in active contention with the usage of stacks. That said people willing to use stacks have such a competitive advantage simply by what time alots you that pretty rapidly those who don't sleeve would be a poor fringe element lacking in real power.
Yeah, People born every day don't have a 100 years for experience and wealth backing them up. Which is how the Meth came to control everything.
Also, its society that accepts the status quo set by the Meths. Kovacs the protagonist most certainly doesn't. Which is Cyberpunk through and through. He is a Cyberpunk hero, using the technology for his own ends, against the wishes of society. Instead of becoming a rich Oligarch lording over short lived pesants, he is a immortal terrorist working to see justice done where he can.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
I was recommended this because I loved the heck out of Soma and the exploration it took with this exact same question of copying consciousness. Unfortunately Altered Carbon does basically nothing with that thread, but if you havn't played Soma, I think it does some of the best "experiencing" of said question because you're playing it through. Check it out (but get a mod that turns off all the monsters, they're horrible and stupid).
at first it seemed like the rebellion stuff was way more widespread than it actually ended up being. Nothing was large enough to justify keeping Kovacs alive. If it had been going on for a hundred years or something, I could see it. But a three year (seemingly) uprising is nothing.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
at first it seemed like the rebellion stuff was way more widespread than it actually ended up being. Nothing was large enough to justify keeping Kovacs alive. If it had been going on for a hundred years or something, I could see it. But a three year (seemingly) uprising is nothing.
For the stuff Kovacs might have known
I don't think anybody would have wanted to flush the last guy who knew anything about people who could screw with the stack system and force a max time limit on the stacks. No way would anybody want to take the risk of letting him go while there was any reasonable chance there might be somebody out there that he knew about who could recode the stack system.
They literally almost destroyed society as people knew it, and we known for randomly popping up anywhere and doing anything in that three years as well. A couple hundred people constantly jumping around the colonized worlds and making strategic high-damage military strikes with nobody able to stop them would become pretty damaging in a big hurry.
Though I agree, having it run for only three years seems like a pointlessly short time, when it could just as easily have been written out to be twenty or thirty years.
at first it seemed like the rebellion stuff was way more widespread than it actually ended up being. Nothing was large enough to justify keeping Kovacs alive. If it had been going on for a hundred years or something, I could see it. But a three year (seemingly) uprising is nothing.
I think if you read between the lines that the marginal cost for keeping someone alive in the stacks is near zero, as is entering/extracting.
But in that case I'm surprised we didn't end up with a super mmo world to replace the drab reality.
I'd buy that a "copy" of you is still you, provided the original is immediately destroyed.
Otherwise the divergence in perspective creates a different consciousness.
There can be only one!
No offense, but this is ridiculous to me. If I shoot you in the head, then make a copy, it's "you", but if I make a copy, then shoot you in the head it's not you - and that second part of the sentence doesn't make you change your mind about the first?
I don't see why it would.
If you shot me in the head and I woke up several miles away in a new body, how is that different from me having been simply knocked unconscious and carried to the hospital?
However, if I got out of the hospital and drove home to find myself already there, I would definitely consider the guy standing in my house to not be me.
If only because I can't be in two places at once.
The "you" that arrived home from the hospital would have the same connection to the person in your house as the "you" that died - i.e. none at all.
It would be, I shoot you in the head. You die. You don't wake up several miles away, a copy of you opens its eyes several miles away. The copy doesn't worry about whether it's the same person or not because that line of thought is uncomfortable.
I mean, seriously, imagine this technology was real. You are in a room, holding a pistol, with your clone body lying on a table, ready to receive a copy of your memories the moment you die. You put the barrel of the gun to your head. You're telling me you'd happily pull that trigger? You're staring at the "empty" body and seriously believe that you are somehow going to be "moved" into it?
I often see people say on this topic "oh, it's cut and paste, not copy and paste".
There is no such thing as "cut and paste", the computer just does copy + paste + delete the original.
It depends on whether or not you regard yourself as being necessarily and inextricably tied to the physical matter of your brain and body.
I think of consciousness as more of an emergent property, rather than the thing itself. My stereo is not music. Paint is not art. I am not my brain. But we rely on these things to exist. Changing their arrangement changes us, yes, but we are more than the sum of our parts and we can each be reproduced elsewhere in our entirety within a new medium.
What is unique is my perspective. There can only ever be one. When I am killed, my perspective ceases. I cease.
If somewhere, somehow it suddenly resumes - so do I. Regardless of time, place, or even body. I am not my memories. I am my experience.
But I dunno. It's all hypothetical and better people than I have thought about the issue. If someone actually put a gun to my head and asked me to prove the courage of my convictions I would probably decline - but more out of uncertainty that I was right than certainty that I was wrong.
I'm having fun with this show, but right from the get go it has major plot holes that only get worse as the show progresses. Like,
The main character is supposed to have been in cold storage for 250 years. Yet, he comes out talking about all kinds of high tech stuff and knows enough about the world to be a master detective.
Or the idea that the Envoys could break in and insert some code into the system that would limit everyone to 100 years. Code can be changed and updated. And it's not like the stacks systems wouldn't have so many redundancies built in that this plan could ever work.
There are just so many inconsistencies that keep drawing me out of the show.
The skinhead as Grandma, though. Fucking fantastic. I love it.
We don't know if the limitation would have actually worked. But also keep in mind, in this universe a 250 year old computer virus is still unstoppable somehow...
at first it seemed like the rebellion stuff was way more widespread than it actually ended up being. Nothing was large enough to justify keeping Kovacs alive. If it had been going on for a hundred years or something, I could see it. But a three year (seemingly) uprising is nothing.
I think they would view being kept in a box forever as worse than real death.
at first it seemed like the rebellion stuff was way more widespread than it actually ended up being. Nothing was large enough to justify keeping Kovacs alive. If it had been going on for a hundred years or something, I could see it. But a three year (seemingly) uprising is nothing.
For the stuff Kovacs might have known
I don't think anybody would have wanted to flush the last guy who knew anything about people who could screw with the stack system and force a max time limit on the stacks. No way would anybody want to take the risk of letting him go while there was any reasonable chance there might be somebody out there that he knew about who could recode the stack system.
They literally almost destroyed society as people knew it, and we known for randomly popping up anywhere and doing anything in that three years as well. A couple hundred people constantly jumping around the colonized worlds and making strategic high-damage military strikes with nobody able to stop them would become pretty damaging in a big hurry.
Though I agree, having it run for only three years seems like a pointlessly short time, when it could just as easily have been written out to be twenty or thirty years.
the founder of that rebellion was also the creator of the stacks and kovacs was the last person who has studied directly with her who was known to be alive. When it costs basically nothing to keep a stack in a drawer somewhere why would you get rid of it? It is not like the stack is going to jump out of the drawer on its own if he got reinstanced it would only be because one of the powers that be chose to do so.
at first it seemed like the rebellion stuff was way more widespread than it actually ended up being. Nothing was large enough to justify keeping Kovacs alive. If it had been going on for a hundred years or something, I could see it. But a three year (seemingly) uprising is nothing.
For the stuff Kovacs might have known
I don't think anybody would have wanted to flush the last guy who knew anything about people who could screw with the stack system and force a max time limit on the stacks. No way would anybody want to take the risk of letting him go while there was any reasonable chance there might be somebody out there that he knew about who could recode the stack system.
They literally almost destroyed society as people knew it, and we known for randomly popping up anywhere and doing anything in that three years as well. A couple hundred people constantly jumping around the colonized worlds and making strategic high-damage military strikes with nobody able to stop them would become pretty damaging in a big hurry.
Though I agree, having it run for only three years seems like a pointlessly short time, when it could just as easily have been written out to be twenty or thirty years.
the founder of that rebellion was also the creator of the stacks and kovacs was the last person who has studied directly with her who was known to be alive. When it costs basically nothing to keep a stack in a drawer somewhere why would you get rid of it? It is not like the stack is going to jump out of the drawer on its own if he got reinstanced it would only be because one of the powers that be chose to do so.
Well, we did see what happened when someone gets resleeved. It can be dangerous.
Watched the first two eps of this; it definitely feels like it’s leaning hard on the setting to avoid developing the plot, but the setting is fun so that’s okay for now.
Lady detective is also kinda painfully cliche, so hopefully that improves
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
at first it seemed like the rebellion stuff was way more widespread than it actually ended up being. Nothing was large enough to justify keeping Kovacs alive. If it had been going on for a hundred years or something, I could see it. But a three year (seemingly) uprising is nothing.
For the stuff Kovacs might have known
I don't think anybody would have wanted to flush the last guy who knew anything about people who could screw with the stack system and force a max time limit on the stacks. No way would anybody want to take the risk of letting him go while there was any reasonable chance there might be somebody out there that he knew about who could recode the stack system.
They literally almost destroyed society as people knew it, and we known for randomly popping up anywhere and doing anything in that three years as well. A couple hundred people constantly jumping around the colonized worlds and making strategic high-damage military strikes with nobody able to stop them would become pretty damaging in a big hurry.
Though I agree, having it run for only three years seems like a pointlessly short time, when it could just as easily have been written out to be twenty or thirty years.
the founder of that rebellion was also the creator of the stacks and kovacs was the last person who has studied directly with her who was known to be alive. When it costs basically nothing to keep a stack in a drawer somewhere why would you get rid of it? It is not like the stack is going to jump out of the drawer on its own if he got reinstanced it would only be because one of the powers that be chose to do so.
Well, we did see what happened when someone gets resleeved. It can be dangerous.
True but he had no power to resleeve himself. He was only ever going to get off ice if some major player chose to make that happen. So keeping him in a drawer was a safe way to keep him out of play incase you feel you need him or access to his stack at some point.
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firewaterwordSatchitanandaPais Vasco to San FranciscoRegistered Userregular
Despite the warts, I enjoyed the three books (somewhat guiltily, I'll admit). I've watched a few episodes of the show, and I'm enjoying it so far.
I'm really interested to see if they continue this into Broken Angels or Woken Furies. Those books are ridiculous.
Finished the series. Non-spoiler thought: the cover of More Human than Human didn’t work. I really like Sune Rose Wagner’s other work, but his cover of this song just felt anemic and kind of detracted from the scene for me. I could tell what they were going for, but meh.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
I'm up to episode four or five now and the setting is carrying the whole thing for me. The plot and characters aren't bad, but they could be complete shit and I'd still be watching to take in the environment.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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AbsalonLands of Always WinterRegistered Userregular
Despite the warts, I enjoyed the three books (somewhat guiltily, I'll admit). I've watched a few episodes of the show, and I'm enjoying it so far.
I'm really interested to see if they continue this into Broken Angels or Woken Furies. Those books are ridiculous.
I am glad they are deviating from the original plot for that reason.
I really wouldn't mind an adaptation of Richard Morgan's fantasy trilogy because there is some dark and weird shit going on in those books, together with a strong, vengeful pathos for justice that is typical for Morgan.
I didn't like the first half all that much, but the second half was awesome.
I haven't read the books- hadn't even heard of the IP, actually-so I was surprised to see
that a lot of people didn't care for the Reilenn reveal. For me it took the story from a boilerplate noir wrapped in an interesting world to a heartbreaking character study.
One bit of worldbuilding that doesn't work for me:
IIRC, the story takes place 365 years in the future. Meaning, the Uprising happened ~115 years after the present day. That is way too soon.
It stretches disbelief to think that humanity a) perfected interstellar travel, b) developed a homeworld/colony system so robust that it could support a unified interplanetary government, c) discovered stack technology, and d) developed the technology to the point of total ubiquity in less than a century.
I didn't like the first half all that much, but the second half was awesome.
I haven't read the books- hadn't even heard of the IP, actually-so I was surprised to see
that a lot of people didn't care for the Reilenn reveal. For me it took the story from a boilerplate noir wrapped in an interesting world to a heartbreaking character study.
One bit of worldbuilding that doesn't work for me:
IIRC, the story takes place 365 years in the future. Meaning, the Uprising happened ~115 years after the present day. That is way too soon.
It stretches disbelief to think that humanity a) perfected interstellar travel, b) developed a homeworld/colony system so robust that it could support a unified interplanetary government, c) discovered stack technology, and d) developed the technology to the point of total ubiquity in less than a century.
My understanding
They found some precursor tech on Mars, just like in Mass Effect. With a boost like that, it becomes a bit more believable.
at first it seemed like the rebellion stuff was way more widespread than it actually ended up being. Nothing was large enough to justify keeping Kovacs alive. If it had been going on for a hundred years or something, I could see it. But a three year (seemingly) uprising is nothing.
I think if you read between the lines that the marginal cost for keeping someone alive in the stacks is near zero, as is entering/extracting.
But in that case I'm surprised we didn't end up with a super mmo world to replace the drab reality.
I didn't like the first half all that much, but the second half was awesome.
I haven't read the books- hadn't even heard of the IP, actually-so I was surprised to see
that a lot of people didn't care for the Reilenn reveal. For me it took the story from a boilerplate noir wrapped in an interesting world to a heartbreaking character study.
One bit of worldbuilding that doesn't work for me:
IIRC, the story takes place 365 years in the future. Meaning, the Uprising happened ~115 years after the present day. That is way too soon.
It stretches disbelief to think that humanity a) perfected interstellar travel, b) developed a homeworld/colony system so robust that it could support a unified interplanetary government, c) discovered stack technology, and d) developed the technology to the point of total ubiquity in less than a century.
The songspire is Martian or Elder as they call it in the show. We followed their star charts to habitable worlds and use a primitive version of some of their tech. Again, books explain it better.
Two episodes in and enjoying it very much. The plot is confusing, but I assume a lot of it gets cleared up. But, do they have to mumble so much? Ortega in particular I can barely follow, Kovacs is slightly better but still garbled in places.
ALRIGHT FINE I GOT AN AVATAR
Steam: adamjnet
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
Two episodes in and enjoying it very much. The plot is confusing, but I assume a lot of it gets cleared up. But, do they have to mumble so much? Ortega in particular I can barely follow, Kovacs is slightly better but still garbled in places.
Thank god. I thought it was just me getting old.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
It's also a thing where stack technology enabled colonization the long way around. They throw a ship out at sub lightspeed aimed at a planet with near earth characteristics. Automated terraforming, cloning, and a whole bunch of stacks ready for implantation set up the colonies fairly quickly. Then needlecasting subbed in for actual lightspeed travel, the technology to transmit data developed more or less while the initial colony ships were in transit. They don't really do interstellar travel quickly in this time period, it's part of what makes Earth such a backwater. Everybody with any ambition and no religious objections left for opportunity in the colonies.
I almost always watch shows with subtitles on. My wife isn't a native English speaker so we started doing it and I have a hard time switching back now.
It speaks to the pace of tech advancement, too; technology has advanced enormously in the last 115 years but not always in ways people expected, and in lots of ways we’re far behind the stuff being predicted at the turn of the 20th century.
In the same way, Mars looks like the limit of interstellar travel at the moment because our hypothetical ships would be slow... but what if some technology made transit speed much less relevant?
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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The "you" that arrived home from the hospital would have the same connection to the person in your house as the "you" that died - i.e. none at all.
It would be, I shoot you in the head. You die. You don't wake up several miles away, a copy of you opens its eyes several miles away. The copy doesn't worry about whether it's the same person or not because that line of thought is uncomfortable.
I mean, seriously, imagine this technology was real. You are in a room, holding a pistol, with your clone body lying on a table, ready to receive a copy of your memories the moment you die. You put the barrel of the gun to your head. You're telling me you'd happily pull that trigger? You're staring at the "empty" body and seriously believe that you are somehow going to be "moved" into it?
I often see people say on this topic "oh, it's cut and paste, not copy and paste".
There is no such thing as "cut and paste", the computer just does copy + paste + delete the original.
In the RPG eclipse phase that uses this type of technology heavily there are some options. They have psycho surgery that can allow your copies to reintegrate the memories back into one again but it is tricky and can have side effects. Also they have rules where if a fork of you is around long enough it is an independent being and treated as such so now basically you made a twin brother or sister. Then they also have unusual habitats such as one that basically the entire population is the same "person" sleeved into a variety of male and female bodies.
In theory if the mental impairment was due to a physical defect transfering them to a body without that defect should allow them to develop normally. I am sure there would be therapy and training needed but over time it should work.
I get that regular, everyday folk, would be used to only seeing people in one sleeve. But, most of the show is centered around meths or people who are rich enough for this not to be an issue. And they never seem to consider that the sleeve isn't what it appears to be. I kept thinking of the possibility throughout the show, but maybe I'm just a skeptical person.
I thought someone might be using either of the Bancrofts' sleeves at various times
I thought either of the Bancrofts might be using other sleeves themselves.
And, to show that it does happen, We see the Bancroft's daughter using Miriam's sleeve at some point, just because its more fun.
Rei also uses many sleeves effectively.
The fightdome couple will be resleeved and not for the first time.
And why was video evidence taken so seriously, when it seems like it wasn't too difficult to either fake it or just use a clone sleeve?
Yes is a serious issue with this kind of technology especially when you are rich enough to be able to do clones. Look at kovacs sister kept appearing to him in various different sleeves from little girls to older men. Proving you are you gets problematic in situations like that. Probably also why double sleeving gets the law laid down pretty hard when it is found out even when you clearly did something good with it.
I thought that the Stack kept a low key version of your consciousness running in it, like in a coma or dreamless sleep, and that while it was definitely possible to copy the stack (needlecasting, double sleeving), if you die they stick your original stack into a new body and once you regain your senses you're you
if that's not the case you're absolutely right, it seems to definitely not be the case in the book but the show is a little more loose about that
In one of the Eclipse Phase games I played, my character's motivation was essentially was a dedication to find this apparent fork of his, which hitherto has started a criminal concern while he was in deep sleep, and murder them because he had a single-minded dedication that there can only be one of himself in the universe. But he was also a sapient bear* so who might have not been on the level to begin with. Forks a pretty fun to play with in that game.
(*Bears are not technically a valid uplift in the game, but the GM let me roll with it, because EP is weird and is more or less Altered Carbon except with more techno-industrial, cosmic horror and hyperintelligent octopuses and space whales that live in the sun.)
Every person raising objections about how a copy of your consciousness in another body is not the you that exists now(and all the other practical, philosophical and metaphysical objections)? You right! Its also irrelevant. The winners write the history books and the other side won. In fact they won a long time ago and every person that objected has since been labeled a crank/nut/terrorist. Just like in the show. Its a Cyberpunk show after all.
In many ways all the arguments back and forth is kind of like arguing AGAINST the American Revolution now. Even if you have cogent arguments about how the Founding Fathers where a bunch of hypocritical rich Landowners, several who owned slaves. trying to argue it today would get you rated as a crank from academia. That is how the reality of Altered Carbon works. The Meths won and everybody else has been showed into the margins of history.
To the point that people that have objections(like Ortegas mother) to the system, don't even question how the system works. She believes that the stack containing Ortegas Grandmother is inside the male sleve and that its the real her. Even if she doesn't like it.
Is this show Cyberpunk or what?
Anyway I don't think your point even works in setting, even if every person who thought resleeving was pointless died without a copy while those who accepted it lived on, every single day more people are born who could think critically for themselves and come to the same conclusion. It would continue to be a point of contention forever.
Also, if stacks can be copied and tortured in virtual, and clones can be grown, how do we secure anything? Passwords and biometrics are both out of the question. I wonder if that eye computer system serves that purpose.
As you can see by the protests there is a portion of the population that is still in active contention with the usage of stacks. That said people willing to use stacks have such a competitive advantage simply by what time alots you that pretty rapidly those who don't sleeve would be a poor fringe element lacking in real power.
Or the idea that the Envoys could break in and insert some code into the system that would limit everyone to 100 years. Code can be changed and updated. And it's not like the stacks systems wouldn't have so many redundancies built in that this plan could ever work.
There are just so many inconsistencies that keep drawing me out of the show.
The skinhead as Grandma, though. Fucking fantastic. I love it.
Yeah, People born every day don't have a 100 years for experience and wealth backing them up. Which is how the Meth came to control everything.
Also, its society that accepts the status quo set by the Meths. Kovacs the protagonist most certainly doesn't. Which is Cyberpunk through and through. He is a Cyberpunk hero, using the technology for his own ends, against the wishes of society. Instead of becoming a rich Oligarch lording over short lived pesants, he is a immortal terrorist working to see justice done where he can.
I would stick it to Kovac over and over for sure.
For the stuff Kovacs might have known
They literally almost destroyed society as people knew it, and we known for randomly popping up anywhere and doing anything in that three years as well. A couple hundred people constantly jumping around the colonized worlds and making strategic high-damage military strikes with nobody able to stop them would become pretty damaging in a big hurry.
Though I agree, having it run for only three years seems like a pointlessly short time, when it could just as easily have been written out to be twenty or thirty years.
I think if you read between the lines that the marginal cost for keeping someone alive in the stacks is near zero, as is entering/extracting.
But in that case I'm surprised we didn't end up with a super mmo world to replace the drab reality.
It depends on whether or not you regard yourself as being necessarily and inextricably tied to the physical matter of your brain and body.
I think of consciousness as more of an emergent property, rather than the thing itself. My stereo is not music. Paint is not art. I am not my brain. But we rely on these things to exist. Changing their arrangement changes us, yes, but we are more than the sum of our parts and we can each be reproduced elsewhere in our entirety within a new medium.
What is unique is my perspective. There can only ever be one. When I am killed, my perspective ceases. I cease.
If somewhere, somehow it suddenly resumes - so do I. Regardless of time, place, or even body. I am not my memories. I am my experience.
But I dunno. It's all hypothetical and better people than I have thought about the issue. If someone actually put a gun to my head and asked me to prove the courage of my convictions I would probably decline - but more out of uncertainty that I was right than certainty that I was wrong.
Also being hired by one of the high mucky mucks and doing what you can to take their money and shiv them with it is also very cyberpunk.
Well, we did see what happened when someone gets resleeved. It can be dangerous.
Lady detective is also kinda painfully cliche, so hopefully that improves
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
True but he had no power to resleeve himself. He was only ever going to get off ice if some major player chose to make that happen. So keeping him in a drawer was a safe way to keep him out of play incase you feel you need him or access to his stack at some point.
I'm really interested to see if they continue this into Broken Angels or Woken Furies. Those books are ridiculous.
I am glad they are deviating from the original plot for that reason.
I really wouldn't mind an adaptation of Richard Morgan's fantasy trilogy because there is some dark and weird shit going on in those books, together with a strong, vengeful pathos for justice that is typical for Morgan.
I didn't like the first half all that much, but the second half was awesome.
I haven't read the books- hadn't even heard of the IP, actually-so I was surprised to see
One bit of worldbuilding that doesn't work for me:
It stretches disbelief to think that humanity a) perfected interstellar travel, b) developed a homeworld/colony system so robust that it could support a unified interplanetary government, c) discovered stack technology, and d) developed the technology to the point of total ubiquity in less than a century.
My understanding
Retirement homes in the books
The songspire is Martian or Elder as they call it in the show. We followed their star charts to habitable worlds and use a primitive version of some of their tech. Again, books explain it better.
Steam: adamjnet
Thank god. I thought it was just me getting old.
In the same way, Mars looks like the limit of interstellar travel at the moment because our hypothetical ships would be slow... but what if some technology made transit speed much less relevant?
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget