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Am I finally past the "friend zone" yet !?

LifeVirusZEROLifeVirusZERO Registered User
edited December 2007 in Help / Advice Forum
Travel back about.... 5 months ago. A friend of mine and I would go out to eat on monday nights when I got out of work. This one restaurant (Let's call it... "TGI Fridays") that we went to, we had a waitress there a couple times in a row. One day we were having a conversation about computers and such, and we all ended up exchanging e-mail addresses. It was to the point that when we would go there on a monday night, we would basically just request to be seated in her section.

Fast-forward to September. I went by myself because my friend was at a gamestop waiting in line for halo 3. When I got to the restaurant, she was walking out and she saw me and we stood there and talked for a while. She was going home because it was too slow, but she asked for my cell number so that we could text eachother and so she could let me know if she would be at work or not before we went there. Sometimes i would just text her on random days and ask how she was doing and we would send a couple back and forth, etc. Well my cousin also started to come along on monday nights with us to her work. She kinda became friends with all of us.

Later that month, she was like "Hey we should all go out to eat sometime" and that we did. We all went to Outback the next week and it was pretty cool. This is still when I thought of her as a friend by the way. Well she was telling us one time that her sister has something wrong with her, and that she is in/out of the hospital a lot. She didn't really like talking about it, I could tell. Well, apparently her sister was on crutches for three months and went back to the doctor hoping to be able to come off of the crutches, but something went wrong and the doctor said she would have to be on crutches for another four months!

The next time we saw her at her work, she told us about it and she told us that she was crying (HER, not her sister) earlier that day. It made me feel really bad and i sent her an email that night that basically said "I am here for you" and "I understand" and all that kinda stuff, and she sent me one back that i made her happy by telling her that and that she really appreciated it and thanks for being a friend, etc. Then a couple minutes later she sent me a text that said something along the lines of: "Thanks! I mean it! :-)"

I was feeling nice so I bought her a present. It was just some candy, the day before was Halloween so all the candy was on sale everywhere and since it was Halloween, we were talking about candy and I figured out what her favorite kind was. I put it in a fancy little gift bag and got a card and stuff and gave it to her the next time I saw her at her work. She was really happy about it and she told me later that it made her day. I even got a hug out of the deal (score!). She sent me an email that night saying "thanks again" and things like that, and she just vented about her sister a little more (man, do girls like to vent...).

The next week, me and my brother had to take my dad to the hospital for something and I was in the ER waiting room for a while. I texted her about it because I was pretty upset and she told me basically the same stuff that I said to her the week before. That she is there for me and things like that. This is about the time that I started to develop more and more feelings for her. She sent me an e-mail making sure I was alright and she said that she thinks her and I should have a "venting dinner" one night because we have a lot in common with our family issues. I told her that it sounded like a good idea but she never really got back to me about it.

Because of what she was going through with her sister, she had to stay home and help out a lot. I texted her on monday asking if she was gonna be at work that night and she said she wasn't. I said that I understood and asked if everything was alright. She said that her car was broken down and that she hates not having a car. She also said that there was more behind that which was making her upset, but that she didn't feel like texting it all (oh, and don't worry, I offered to drive her somewhere if she wanted). I sent her an email that night asking her about it then I realized that it was probably something that she'd rather talk about in person, so I sent her another one asking when we could have that "venting dinner" that she promised me.

She told me that she will let me know as soon as her car gets fixed. That same day she had sent me a text message, it was one of those "chain" messages. It said like "Friends make you smile, send this message to all the people that you don't want to lose in 2008 even me". Naturally I sent it back to her, but didn't really bother to send it to anyone else because those things are stupid. One thing to note is that she has the cell numbers of my friend and cousin but she didn't send that to them. And this is where I am now. I wanna ask this girl out, and I plan on doing it whenever we have that supposed dinner that she suggested.

The reason I have doubts though, is because she doesn't really talk to me a whole lot. Other than when I talk to her first. This could just be because of all the stuff going on with her sister at home. Every once in a while, she will leave a comment on my myspace page or something for no real reason, which leads me to realize that she doesn't just contact me only in response to something else. (wow i feel like such a loser for that last sentence). This girl has been on my mind a lot, but just like every other guy out there, I'm hardcore afraid of rejection.

TL;DR version:

I have a friend that I want to ask out, and it's pretty obvious that she really likes me as a good friend, but she doesn't really make a whole lot of effort to contact me so I don't know if she really likes me or if she's just really nice.

Any advice?


Also, I'm sorry for being the king of run-on sentences and the prince of not staying on topic.

LifeVirusZERO on

Posts

  • brianz19brianz19 Registered User
    edited November 2007
    Who knows if she really likes you like that or not, people do different things for a lot of different reasons. But I think some of the best advice I can give you is to not think about her too much, which might obviously be a hard thing to do since you posted so much.

    I say keep shooting for that "venting dinner" and see how things go there. Try not to reveal the fact that you like her yet..it usually works out better if you wait for them to do it first.

    brianz19 on
  • ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    First, purge your mind of the utter crap that is the friend zone. Ladder theory is bullshit, and it will fuck you up in the head.

    Second, you really need to get out of the whole "being nice to her so she ends up falling for you" line of thought. Nobody likes Nice Guys (TM). If you're doing nice things because you're a nice person, fine, but the moment you start feeling entitled to her attention or response, you have crossed the line and need to take a step back and think about your attitude.

    For this particular girl, she seems to be going through a lot. It may not be the best time to make a move. Besides, the fact that you are so hung up on the girl even though nothing sexual or romantic has happened between you two makes it very likely that you're simply obsessed and will fuck up at some point.

    I'd move on. Maybe not what you want to hear, but at this moment it seems to be the most logical thing to do, given her situation and your attitude.

    ege02 on
  • DrFrylockDrFrylock Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    ege02 wrote: »
    First, purge your mind of the utter crap that is the friend zone. Ladder theory is bullshit, and it will fuck you up in the head.

    Seeing as certain subjects in this post are ipso facto bannable, I can't talk about them directly. So I will attempt to describe the situation in neutral terms as best as possible.

    Let's not call it the "friend zone." Let's call it the "zone of mismatched expectations." To whit:

    You are walking down a path in which the two of you are becoming close confidants, sharing your private feelings with each other, spending time together, using each other as emotional crutches, and so on. This is pretty clear. What is not clear are the expectations you both have.

    Your expectation: A relationship is desirable and, hopefully, imminent.
    Her expectation: ???

    Maybe her expectation is that you guys will continue to be the closest of friends with no romantic entanglements whatsoever. Maybe it is that she's waiting for you to make a move and can't understand what's taking you so long. Who knows? You certainly don't.

    You are on a potential road toward bitterness. The appropriate thing to do here is to get these expectations out in the open as soon as possible, before you find yourself passing a sign that says "Welcome to Bitteronia! Population: You." As soon as is practical, you need to express your expectations and find out what hers are. If they're the same as yours, great. Have a nice life.

    However, you're not out of the woods yet! You may still find yourself in Bitter County. If she's ambivalent or unsure about what she wants, you may continue to hold on to your expectations indefinitely, growing in bitterness a little bit each day as your interactions become greater. In this case, I recommend setting a definite decision date. Two weeks, a month, something reasonable. If she hasn't made up her mind by then and you still feel like you want a relationship, walk.

    She may be very sure of what she wants, which is to continue the friendship and not have any sort of romantic relationship with you. Maybe you can handle this, and maybe you can't. If I were in your shoes, I would not be able to handle it. If she tells you this, however, act as if she means it. You may see behaviors you interpret as conflicting signs or mixed signals. Ignore these. Staying in a friends-only relationship when you want more is not a test of strength, maturity, or willpower. You don't get any brownie points for doing it. Worse, if you stay because you think you might somehow change her mind (perhaps by being extra nice) you're being a choad.

    I wish I could say that you can rest comfortably in the fact that dogged persistence in such a situation has never paid off in the history of man because, people being people, strange things happen every day. However, for every one individual who succeeds the road is littered with the bones of 99 others. And that road, sir, is the road to Bitteronia.

    DrFrylock on
  • ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    Staying in a friends-only relationship when you want more is not a test of strength, maturity, or willpower. You don't get any brownie points for doing it. Worse, if you stay because you think you might somehow change her mind (perhaps by being extra nice) you're being a choad.

    ege02 on
  • DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    ege02 wrote: »
    First, purge your mind of the utter crap that is the friend zone. Ladder theory is bullshit, and it will fuck you up in the head.

    From my experience I have to say that that is a total lie and can become a hindrance in your future.

    DasUberEdward on
  • TrowizillaTrowizilla Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Ask her out already. If she says no and you actually want to be platonic friends with her, give her a little while to cool off and then continue being friendly and supportive. If she says something like "I like you a lot but now is not a good time," treat it as a no, at least until she makes it very clear otherwise. If you ever think she's acting interested after she says she'd rather be friends, let her make the first move, don't get your hopes up and start obsessing over her again. ALSO, if you absolutely only want to have a romantic relationship and don't care about being her friend, don't hang around her and try to change her mind, because that's utterly creepy.

    There's no such thing as the "friend zone," just people you're interested in romantically at the moment and people you're not.

    Trowizilla on
  • DrFrylockDrFrylock Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Reading the other posters above, there's good advice there but something doesn't sit well with me and I can't quite put my finger on it. I'll try anyway.

    There are certain philosophies, exemplified by Stoicism and certain types of Buddhism. The idea is that human suffering is caused by attachment to worldly things (including people) and that the key to happiness is in letting go of these attachments. There are two underlying premises: 1) that it is possible, with sufficient training, introspection, maturity, or whatever, to actually achieve this and that 2) it is desirable or perhaps even virtuous to do so.

    For me, this idea is both deeply true and deeply false. In my personal life, I'm right below the Vulcans in terms of stoicism. Whereas a Buddhist might view this as some kind of achievement, I know it isn't - it's only a tradeoff. Yes, it provides great strength in times of crisis. The cost is basic human empathy, which is no small price.

    In all my years of meticulous stoicism, feelings like the OPs have been the only ones I've found it impossible to suppress. They can become overwhelming at times. This is quite the shock to me. It seems to me that these feelings are practically biological - built into the system directly, at a level far lower than ordinary desire or jealousy or ambition.

    With this as context, let me try to draw out a couple of things.

    brianz19 advises the OP "to not think about her too much." This makes plenty of logical sense, but is it really practical? To me, this is almost like advising someone to try really hard to not be hungry. Similarly, Trowizilla says that if it doesn't work out but they stay in contact anyway:
    Trowizilla wrote:
    If you ever think she's acting interested after she says she'd rather be friends, let her make the first move, don't get your hopes up and start obsessing over her again.

    It's the same sort of advice - just apply willpower to control your emotions. ege02 says:
    ege02 wrote:
    If you're doing nice things because you're a nice person, fine, but the moment you start feeling entitled to her attention or response, you have crossed the line and need to take a step back and think about your attitude.

    Which, as I read it, says that certain kinds of expectations and feelings are bad to have in and of themselves, and should be suppressed.

    Here, I'm seeing (maybe erroneously, I don't know) this stoicist attitude: if you just try hard enough, you can and should subjugate all your feelings. I disagree strongly in this particular case. So, OP:

    I think it is perfectly natural for you to feel attracted to this person. I think it is perfectly natural that, as you become closer as people, you become more and more interested in a relationship with her. I think it's perfectly fair for you to expect that a relationship might actually occur. I think it's a natural instinct to try to do nice things for her in an attempt to maximize the chances of this happening. I think it is absolutely inevitable to be disappointed or crushed when your gestures of affection are not returned in kind, and it is OK to feel this way.

    If the worst happens and things don't work out, I think it's perfectly natural to continue to have feelings for her even if it's made clear to you that they will never be reciprocated. I think it's folly to believe you can simply will these feelings away now that the practical situation has changed, or expect that with enough time they will go away on their own. I think a natural response would be to think "well, maybe if I just stick around long enough and do more nice things she'll change her mind."

    These feelings and instincts and expectations aren't bad, wrong, or misogynistic. I don't care if you're a Shaolin monk, you're going to think about her too much, you're going to obsess, you're going to want to be nice to her in the hopes that she'll want to enter into a relationship with you, and you're going to do these things whether you want to or not. You can't just choose to become platonic friends with someone that you have feelings for. You can choose to act like platonic friends, since actions are under your control, but you can't control that the whole time you're acting, you want to be more.

    This is why I say that if you still feel this way and she doesn't, walk away. If you stick around the little stoic in you can rationalize all day long: "I know I have feelings for her now, but I'm sure I can hang around her and do nice things for her all day long without building up any expectations that it will lead to a later relationship. I will stay for the sense of friendship and companionship. Eventually my feelings will just sort of fade into the background. I will be open to a relationship in the future but I will have absolutely no expectation that one will happen and will be completely ambivalent about the possibility until it presents itself."

    This doesn't work, and when it doesn't, it's not a failure or lack of maturity or lack of willpower. The smart play is to walk away (not unscathed, mind you) and grieve the loss on your own terms. After that process, your feelings may change of their own accord, at which point you may actually be able to interact with her without your feelings coming raging back, but again this will be out of your control, and it will take a long time and maybe some life changes for you. Otherwise, walk away, feel depressed and sad, be OK with those feelings, and then slowly move on.

    DrFrylock on
  • brandotheninjamasterbrandotheninjamaster Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Ask her out. The worst she can say is "no". Don't lose your nerve, suck it up and have some self confidence and "just do it" (TM) .


    sorry, my advice isn't as enlightened as Dr. Frylock's

    brandotheninjamaster on
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    ege02 wrote: »
    First, purge your mind of the utter crap that is the friend zone. Ladder theory is bullshit, and it will fuck you up in the head.

    From my experience I have to say that that is a total lie and can become a hindrance in your future.

    Too bad, fuckhead. Ladder Theory is bullshit and has been against the rules in H/A for years.

    ViolentChemistry on
  • Nitsuj82Nitsuj82 Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Here's my two cents:

    As a 25 year old (I'm pretty sure this puts me right in the middle of the PA demographic that scours these boards) who has been in enough of these situations to know what it's like, I can tell you that I would read the signs pointing your way. If, as you said, she doesn't communicate with your friends like she does with you, you're in the right spot. It seems like she has been giving you every possible way to keep in touch with her outside of work.

    I agree with the above posts though in that you need to just talk to her about it. If/when you guys go out just the two of you, treat it like a date. Go and vent like you had planned to (you sound young, so it's a good thing that you have realized women need to be upset like we need to breathe [apologies in advance to any women reading this post]), but take the opportunity to find out if she's dating anyone and what her social life is like outside of work. This is an easy chance to really get to know more about her. For fuck's sake though, don't just sit there like a puppy and be her sounding board. you'll know you're fucked if she just starts telling you about the guys she has crushes on (unless it's you, or someone anonymous who sounds like you). Until then, you're in the running.

    Good luck.

    Nitsuj82 on
  • Brian888Brian888 Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    ege02 wrote: »
    Second, you really need to get out of the whole "being nice to her so she ends up falling for you" line of thought. Nobody likes Nice Guys (TM). If you're doing nice things because you're a nice person, fine, but the moment you start feeling entitled to her attention or response, you have crossed the line and need to take a step back and think about your attitude.


    This is absolutely right.

    Brian888 on
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I.....agree with ege....

    My world is crashing own around me

    nexuscrawler on
  • PirateJonPirateJon Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I'm hardcore afraid of rejection
    FFS, Don't play BS games to protect your delicate ego. Ask for a date. Accept that anything other than "Yes!" or "Sure, but not tonight, maybe on x/x/x" means shes just not in to you. a non-specific maybe isn't "maybe" it's "No".

    PirateJon on
    all perfectionists are mediocre in their own eyes
  • LifeVirusZEROLifeVirusZERO Registered User
    edited November 2007
    I have learned a few valuable lessons from when I was in high school.
    i.e. "No means no" and "Don't try to buy their love and trust".

    Thanks for all the advice. Especially DrFrylock. It seems like you put a lot of thought into what you said and I really appreciate it.
    Nitsuj82 wrote: »
    For fuck's sake though, don't just sit there like a puppy and be her sounding board. you'll know you're fucked if she just starts telling you about the guys she has crushes on (unless it's you, or someone anonymous who sounds like you).

    Oh trust me, I have plenty of stuff that I want to tell her as well. She's a great listener, that's one of the things I really like about her.

    LifeVirusZERO on
  • DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    DrFrylock wrote: »
    Reading the other posters above, there's good advice there but something doesn't sit well with me and I can't quite put my finger on it. I'll try anyway.

    There are certain philosophies, exemplified by Stoicism and certain types of Buddhism. The idea is that human suffering is caused by attachment to worldly things (including people) and that the key to happiness is in letting go of these attachments. There are two underlying premises: 1) that it is possible, with sufficient training, introspection, maturity, or whatever, to actually achieve this and that 2) it is desirable or perhaps even virtuous to do so.

    For me, this idea is both deeply true and deeply false. In my personal life, I'm right below the Vulcans in terms of stoicism. Whereas a Buddhist might view this as some kind of achievement, I know it isn't - it's only a tradeoff. Yes, it provides great strength in times of crisis. The cost is basic human empathy, which is no small price.

    In all my years of meticulous stoicism, feelings like the OPs have been the only ones I've found it impossible to suppress. They can become overwhelming at times. This is quite the shock to me. It seems to me that these feelings are practically biological - built into the system directly, at a level far lower than ordinary desire or jealousy or ambition.

    With this as context, let me try to draw out a couple of things.

    brianz19 advises the OP "to not think about her too much." This makes plenty of logical sense, but is it really practical? To me, this is almost like advising someone to try really hard to not be hungry. Similarly, Trowizilla says that if it doesn't work out but they stay in contact anyway:
    Trowizilla wrote:
    If you ever think she's acting interested after she says she'd rather be friends, let her make the first move, don't get your hopes up and start obsessing over her again.

    It's the same sort of advice - just apply willpower to control your emotions. ege02 says:
    ege02 wrote:
    If you're doing nice things because you're a nice person, fine, but the moment you start feeling entitled to her attention or response, you have crossed the line and need to take a step back and think about your attitude.

    Which, as I read it, says that certain kinds of expectations and feelings are bad to have in and of themselves, and should be suppressed.

    Here, I'm seeing (maybe erroneously, I don't know) this stoicist attitude: if you just try hard enough, you can and should subjugate all your feelings. I disagree strongly in this particular case. So, OP:

    I think it is perfectly natural for you to feel attracted to this person. I think it is perfectly natural that, as you become closer as people, you become more and more interested in a relationship with her. I think it's perfectly fair for you to expect that a relationship might actually occur. I think it's a natural instinct to try to do nice things for her in an attempt to maximize the chances of this happening. I think it is absolutely inevitable to be disappointed or crushed when your gestures of affection are not returned in kind, and it is OK to feel this way.

    If the worst happens and things don't work out, I think it's perfectly natural to continue to have feelings for her even if it's made clear to you that they will never be reciprocated. I think it's folly to believe you can simply will these feelings away now that the practical situation has changed, or expect that with enough time they will go away on their own. I think a natural response would be to think "well, maybe if I just stick around long enough and do more nice things she'll change her mind."

    These feelings and instincts and expectations aren't bad, wrong, or misogynistic. I don't care if you're a Shaolin monk, you're going to think about her too much, you're going to obsess, you're going to want to be nice to her in the hopes that she'll want to enter into a relationship with you, and you're going to do these things whether you want to or not. You can't just choose to become platonic friends with someone that you have feelings for. You can choose to act like platonic friends, since actions are under your control, but you can't control that the whole time you're acting, you want to be more.

    This is why I say that if you still feel this way and she doesn't, walk away. If you stick around the little stoic in you can rationalize all day long: "I know I have feelings for her now, but I'm sure I can hang around her and do nice things for her all day long without building up any expectations that it will lead to a later relationship. I will stay for the sense of friendship and companionship. Eventually my feelings will just sort of fade into the background. I will be open to a relationship in the future but I will have absolutely no expectation that one will happen and will be completely ambivalent about the possibility until it presents itself."

    This doesn't work, and when it doesn't, it's not a failure or lack of maturity or lack of willpower. The smart play is to walk away (not unscathed, mind you) and grieve the loss on your own terms. After that process, your feelings may change of their own accord, at which point you may actually be able to interact with her without your feelings coming raging back, but again this will be out of your control, and it will take a long time and maybe some life changes for you. Otherwise, walk away, feel depressed and sad, be OK with those feelings, and then slowly move on.
    This should probably be stickied somewhere, I really wish I would have come across it. . .say five years ago. It addresses a common issue quite perfectly and would seem very applicable here.

    And Violent Chemistry you're an outrageously ignorant cock.

    DasUberEdward on
  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    He is a cock but ladder theory is against the rules.

    And bullshit.

    Quid on
  • EclecticGrooveEclecticGroove Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    This should probably be stickied somewhere, I really wish I would have come across it. . .say five years ago. It addresses a common issue quite perfectly and would seem very applicable here.

    And Violent Chemistry you're an outrageously ignorant cock.

    For pointing out that the ladder theory is a bunch of bullshit? Not really... but back on topic.

    What fry was talking about there is a very interesting thing, and it IS certainly true for many people.... but it's not true for everyone, nor is it true in every case.
    The OP may not be able to handle his emotions and feelings around this girl if he's rejected, or maybe he can. It's really hard to say how you will react in any given situation when it comes to emotions, even for people who are usually very good with them, sometimes they can get knocked for a loop.

    This doesn't mean the OP should walk away now if he's not sure if this girl will reciprocate his feelings, nor does it mean he should suck it up and be her friend no matter what if she does wind up not sharing those feelings.

    What it does mean is that right now he should ask himself squarely if he really does care for her, and if he wants to risk losing any friendship they have over pursuing a relationship or not.

    Others in this thread have already talked about managing expectations, and about the whole "buying affection" thing that some guys fall into, so I won't get into those. But the longer he simply waits around without making any decisions the worse it will be for him, and potentially much more awkward for her as well.

    EclecticGroove on
  • urahonkyurahonky Dayton, OHRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    It seems to me she likes you more than a friend... However, she may be that kind of person. Some girls are really open to people, and some aren't. But I personally think she likes you and you should continue to do what you're doing now. Obviously I would be careful about asking her "out" until her sister gets better... When she's not having all the stress and the weight of the world on her shoulders.

    But honestly, good luck to you sir. You two sound like a good fit.

    urahonky on
  • StaleghotiStaleghoti Registered User
    edited November 2007
    ege02 wrote: »
    Staying in a friends-only relationship when you want more is not a test of strength, maturity, or willpower. You don't get any brownie points for doing it. Worse, if you stay because you think you might somehow change her mind (perhaps by being extra nice) you're being a choad.

    ...yeahhh

    This is where I always end up

    Staleghoti on
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  • PirateJonPirateJon Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Too many shitty teen movies about the girl finally falling for the BF who was right there the whole time and not enough actual talking to people.

    dudes: If you act like "just a friend", when you want to be dating someone it's dishonest and scummy.

    Imagine you meet a random dude at work/school, you joke around and become friends. so you hang out having fun and all. So you go over to his place one night and suddenly he puts on some slow jams and says shit like "i've loved you for so long. I cherish every moment since I first saw you wearing that tshirt. Let's make out!"

    Surprising and awkward at least. Not friendship killing in all cases, but the entire interpersonal dynamic has changed. And yet so many dudes wonder why the surprise "PLZ B MY GF NAO!" shit fails.

    PirateJon on
    all perfectionists are mediocre in their own eyes
  • brandotheninjamasterbrandotheninjamaster Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Never looked at it from that perspective...

    It makes sense now that I think about it.

    brandotheninjamaster on
  • EclecticGrooveEclecticGroove Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Never looked at it from that perspective...

    It makes sense now that I think about it.

    Yeah, it makes sense.. but the problem for a lot of people (guys and girls) that fall into this kind of thing is that they misread ANY attention for affection. Then they just compound it by not clarifying the issue before they find themselves infatuated with the other person.

    I love those old 80's romantic comedies as much as the next guy, but the way to a girls heart is not sending her 100 roses a day or standing out in the rain after she's given you a clear sign that she's not interested... that way lies a restraining order.

    If you're interested, or just think the other person is interested and you might like to pursue, get it out of the way quickly... saves both parties loads of trouble later on. It's only slightly awkward to have a "I wouldn't mind going on a date" kind of talk out of the blue.... it's VERY awkward to have a "I've loved you for x months/years and want to spend the rest of my life with you" talk out of left field.

    EclecticGroove on
  • LifeVirusZEROLifeVirusZERO Registered User
    edited November 2007
    PirateJon wrote: »
    Imagine you meet a random dude at work/school, you joke around and become friends. so you hang out having fun and all. So you go over to his place one night and suddenly he puts on some slow jams and says shit like "i've loved you for so long. I cherish every moment since I first saw you wearing that tshirt. Let's make out!"

    That's not the case though. I didn't develop more feelings towards her until a few weeks ago. I really do value our friendship and if she says no, I still want things to be cool between us.

    LifeVirusZERO on
  • EclecticGrooveEclecticGroove Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    PirateJon wrote: »
    Imagine you meet a random dude at work/school, you joke around and become friends. so you hang out having fun and all. So you go over to his place one night and suddenly he puts on some slow jams and says shit like "i've loved you for so long. I cherish every moment since I first saw you wearing that tshirt. Let's make out!"

    That's not the case though. I didn't develop more feelings towards her until a few weeks ago. I really do value our friendship and if she says no, I still want things to be cool between us.

    That might be you right now. But take your current situation... assume you decide to just stay friends but never put your feelings to rest, and some day down the line blurt out how you feel.

    That's the stuff that makes the WTF moments down the line.
    Sadly it's not that uncommon for many people to do, and rarely turns out as nice as similar situations play out in movies.

    EclecticGroove on
  • JohnnyCacheJohnnyCache Starting Defense Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Here is the key to how I'm going to highlight this

    Lime - the only things in your post that matter
    salmon - terrible details that don't matter
    purple - you fucking up


    Travel back about.... 5 months ago. A friend of mine and I would go out to eat on monday nights when I got out of work. This one restaurant (Let's call it... "TGI Fridays") that we went to, we had a waitress there a couple times in a row. One day we were having a conversation about computers and such, and we all ended up exchanging e-mail addresses. It was to the point that when we would go there on a monday night, we would basically just request to be seated in her section.

    Fast-forward to September. I went by myself because my friend was at a gamestop waiting in line for halo 3. When I got to the restaurant, she was walking out and she saw me and we stood there and talked for a while. She was going home because it was too slow, but she asked for my cell number so that we could text eachother and so she could let me know if she would be at work or not before we went there. Sometimes i would just text her on random days and ask how she was doing and we would send a couple back and forth, etc. Well my cousin also started to come along on monday nights with us to her work. She kinda became friends with all of us.

    Later that month, she was like "Hey we should all go out to eat sometime" and that we did. We all went to Outback the next week and it was pretty cool. This is still when I thought of her as a friend by the way. Well she was telling us one time that her sister has something wrong with her, and that she is in/out of the hospital a lot. She didn't really like talking about it, I could tell. Well, apparently her sister was on crutches for three months and went back to the doctor hoping to be able to come off of the crutches, but something went wrong and the doctor said she would have to be on crutches for another four months!

    The next time we saw her at her work, she told us about it and she told us that she was crying (HER, not her sister) earlier that day. It made me feel really bad and i sent her an email that night that basically said "I am here for you" and "I understand" and all that kinda stuff, and she sent me one back that i made her happy by telling her that and that she really appreciated it and thanks for being a friend, etc. Then a couple minutes later she sent me a text that said something along the lines of: "Thanks! I mean it! :-)"

    I was feeling nice so I bought her a present. It was just some candy, the day before was Halloween so all the candy was on sale everywhere and since it was Halloween, we were talking about candy and I figured out what her favorite kind was. I put it in a fancy little gift bag and got a card and stuff and gave it to her the next time I saw her at her work. She was really happy about it and she told me later that it made her day. I even got a hug out of the deal (score!). She sent me an email that night saying "thanks again" and things like that, and she just vented about her sister a little more (man, do girls like to vent...).


    The next week, me and my brother had to take my dad to the hospital for something and I was in the ER waiting room for a while. I texted her about it because I was pretty upset and she told me basically the same stuff that I said to her the week before. That she is there for me and things like that. This is about the time that I started to develop more and more feelings for her. She sent me an e-mail making sure I was alright and she said that she thinks her and I should have a "venting dinner" one night because we have a lot in common with our family issues.
    I told her that it sounded like a good idea but she never really got back to me about it.

    Because of what she was going through with her sister, she had to stay home and help out a lot. I texted her on monday asking if she was gonna be at work that night and she said she wasn't. I said that I understood and asked if everything was alright. She said that her car was broken down and that she hates not having a car. She also said that there was more behind that which was making her upset, but that she didn't feel like texting it all (oh, and don't worry, I offered to drive her somewhere if she wanted). I sent her an email that night asking her about it then I realized that it was probably something that she'd rather talk about in person, so I sent her another one asking when we could have that "venting dinner" that she promised me.

    She told me that she will let me know as soon as her car gets fixed. That same day she had sent me a text message, it was one of those "chain" messages. It said like "Friends make you smile, send this message to all the people that you don't want to lose in 2008 even me". Naturally I sent it back to her, but didn't really bother to send it to anyone else because those things are stupid. One thing to note is that she has the cell numbers of my friend and cousin but she didn't send that to them. And this is where I am now. I wanna ask this girl out, and I plan on doing it whenever we have that supposed dinner that she suggested.

    The reason I have doubts though, is because she doesn't really talk to me a whole lot. Other than when I talk to her first. This could just be because of all the stuff going on with her sister at home. Every once in a while, she will leave a comment on my myspace page or something for no real reason, which leads me to realize that she doesn't just contact me only in response to something else. (wow i feel like such a loser for that last sentence). This girl has been on my mind a lot, but just like every other guy out there, I'm hardcore afraid of rejection.

    TL;DR version:

    I have a friend that I want to ask out, and it's pretty obvious that she really likes me as a good friend, but she doesn't really make a whole lot of effort to contact me so I don't know if she really likes me or if she's just really nice.

    Any advice?


    Also, I'm sorry for being the king of run-on sentences and the prince of not staying on topic.

    You seem to have a problem with conflating different types of intimacy and intensity - you feel close to her when the two of you are having a lot of disclosure, telling each other things, and you try to escalate things at those times, when she's in the wrong mindset, despite the openness.


    You might be able to pull out of this nose-dive

    but you really need to ask her on an actual date, and soon.



    To some of the rest of you: A woman you aren't dating yet is almost never as important or unique in objective reality as she is in subjective reality. You're pining for the never-was in your head, not the really-is or the could-be that's out here with the rest of us.

    JohnnyCache on
  • LifeVirusZEROLifeVirusZERO Registered User
    edited December 2007
    Oh I'm definitely gonna ask her out, very soon. I was just asking for advice. Any advice. So far most of it has been helpful. I'm already comfortable with controlling my emotions and I know I'll be able to handle it if she says no.

    LifeVirusZERO on
  • LifeVirusZEROLifeVirusZERO Registered User
    edited December 2007
    Here is the key to how I'm going to highlight this

    Lime - the only things in your post that matter
    salmon - terrible details that don't matter
    purple - you fucking up

    I tried... No guy can get it perfectly. I'd say for the most part I actually played my cards very well. Still though, thanks for the input.

    LifeVirusZERO on
  • blu3manblu3man Registered User
    edited December 2007
    ok let me make this clear...

    ONCE AND FOR ALL...

    here it is...

    ATTN

    IF U DONT KNOW YOUR PAST THE FRIENDS ZONE YET YOU ARE NOT!!!



    sry but its that simple rly.

    blu3man on
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  • JohnnyCacheJohnnyCache Starting Defense Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Here is the key to how I'm going to highlight this

    Lime - the only things in your post that matter
    salmon - terrible details that don't matter
    purple - you fucking up

    I tried... No guy can get it perfectly. I'd say for the most part I actually played my cards very well. Still though, thanks for the input.

    I was kind of a dick about it, but you need to understand what I'm saying - basic social theory dictates that we're tempted to disclose to those that disclose too us, but that's not always the same as romantic intimacy. You feel close to her when you're talking about stressful things, but that's NOT always the best time to try to make things romantic with a girl. You talk about "scoring" a hug (of all things) after you make her feel better about a shitty day or whatever, that's a good example.

    that was not an intimate moment for her. I'll bet you a coke.

    (and I mostly meant "things that could have been left out of your post," I'm sure those details are meaningful for you personally but they don't change the answer you'll get here that much)

    JohnnyCache on
  • LifeVirusZEROLifeVirusZERO Registered User
    edited December 2007
    Understood. And I know the whole hug thing was just because she was thanking me for the present and brightening up her day. I just like hugs is all. That's why i said score.

    *edit* Also, there are things that I left out. We talk about other things too, not just stressful things.

    LifeVirusZERO on
  • ZeeBeeKayZeeBeeKay Registered User
    edited December 2007
    blu3man wrote: »
    ok let me make this clear...

    ONCE AND FOR ALL...

    here it is...

    ATTN

    IF U DONT KNOW YOUR PAST THE FRIENDS ZONE YET YOU ARE NOT!!!



    sry but its that simple rly.

    Let me make something clear.

    There is no such thing as the "friends zone."

    There is explicit romantic advances (asking out on a date), implicit romantic advances (compliments, etc, which are nice but SHOULD NOT be relied on as a promise for a future relationship or an insurance plan for a future relationship), and there is friendship, which can include one, both, or neither of the previous two categories. Who better to date than someone you are friends with?

    HOWEVER being "nice" to a girl just to get into a relationship with her will lead to you feeling like you're in the "friends zone" because you haven't made any explicit advances and so she has likely not considered you as a romantic partner (either she thinks you're not interested or she hasn't had anything spark her interest). Thus, you need to make an explicit advance (explicit meaning clear and not meaning vulgar) to "get out of the friends zone" and stop expecting her to read your mind.

    OP: What you've got going doesn't sound too bad. The purpled bits up above come off as a bit clingy, but I would suggest just asking her out for a casual but clear date and see what happens. Also I am a girl and so theoretically know what I am talking about. Maybe.

    Good luck, you seem not as creepy as some people who use the term "friends zone."

    ZeeBeeKay on
  • RaslinRaslin Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    There is such a thing as a Friends-zone, you just may not have experienced it. Really, its just when a guy wants to be with a girl, but she just looks at him as a friend. Of course, its more of an end-point than something to pass through. If you want to be with someone, don't be their friend and "bide your time", so to speak. Make a move as soon as plausible, don't procrastinate.

    Raslin on
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  • JansonJanson Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    If a guy wants to be with a girl but she only sees him as a friend, then that is not the 'friends zone' - she would never have been/be romantically interested in him.

    If a girl was attracted to a guy but he never made an explicit move and so they became friends instead, and now she's no longer romantically interested in him, that's not the 'friends zone' - that's her having seen something about him during their friendship that turns him off, or her finding someone she is better suited to. If they had been going out, they'd in all likelihood have broken up by now.

    And, believe it or not, these situations are not gender exclusive, either.

    The 'friends zone' labelling is just used as an excuse to put the blame onto the woman and write the whole situation off as a funny female-brain thing (haha!) so that the male feels less stupid for not being the kind of guy the woman would want to date anyway.

    JohnnyCache is right; just ask her out, and soon! And if she's not interested, then no big deal, you've said you still wanted to be friends, right?

    Janson on
  • ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS
    edited December 2007
    Humans are far too complicated to explain with overly simplistic theories like the ladder theory.

    ege02 on
  • LifeVirusZEROLifeVirusZERO Registered User
    edited December 2007
    Just a quick update... I went for it and she said yes.

    LifeVirusZERO on
  • urahonkyurahonky Dayton, OHRegistered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Gratz bro! :)

    urahonky on
  • brandotheninjamasterbrandotheninjamaster Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    'bout time. Took you long enough bro. I believe congratulations are in order so grabulations (inside joke). So now where are you going to go on your first date? Since you have been out with this girl before a bunch of times I would suggest the movies.

    brandotheninjamaster on
  • Nitsuj82Nitsuj82 Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    So no other details? What happened? That was like two weeks being in the dark.

    Nitsuj82 on
  • brandotheninjamasterbrandotheninjamaster Registered User regular
    edited December 2007
    Nitsuj82 wrote: »
    So no other details? What happened? That was like two weeks being in the dark.

    Thats about how long it took him to work up the courage. I pretty much had to push him into it. Even though he is going to deny it.

    brandotheninjamaster on
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