Among other things you're describing being a member of a racial group like being in a highschool clique.
No, not at all; we are all born of different ancestry: however much weight you give to it is up to you. There are very real social pressures in the world today, unfortunately some of these are due to race when they shouldn't be.
I argued that saying some language is appropriate for one race but not another is clique-ish. It's like saying everyone should stay inside their own lines, and on certain matters you should just never cross over.
I'm for dropping the expletive this strip is based on from the lexicon altogether.
I didn't think your posts could get any worse but then they did
look mate, if a word is highly offensive to an entire group of people who have been historically treated like subhumans, enslaved, and still now have huge amounts of gross racism thrown their way, and that word is intrinsicly linked to that history when spoken by a white person.... maybe don't use it?
trying to argue that they themselves shouldn't use it is still a fallacy- the history revolves around the use of it by those above them, not them themselves.
like is this seriously a hill you want to die on?
"Black people should say the n word because white people aren't allowed to either and it'd be clique-y" like, please think about that real hard.
I'd say it's intrinsically linked to history, period. Regardless of who says it.
You are setting up a straw man. It's not a privilege to be able to use the "n word"; it's just strong language that has a lot of racial baggage to go along with it.
Again, I'm not really interested in arriving at some sort of measure by which the word is appropriate or not: I am more interested in how people support the position that it's not always offensive when one racial group uses it, but always when used by those outside such a tradition.
Among other things you're describing being a member of a racial group like being in a highschool clique.
No, not at all; we are all born of different ancestry: however much weight you give to it is up to you. There are very real social pressures in the world today, unfortunately some of these are due to race when they shouldn't be.
I argued that saying some language is appropriate for one race but not another is clique-ish. It's like saying everyone should stay inside their own lines, and on certain matters you should just never cross over.
I'm for dropping the expletive this strip is based on from the lexicon altogether.
I didn't think your posts could get any worse but then they did
look mate, if a word is highly offensive to an entire group of people who have been historically treated like subhumans, enslaved, and still now have huge amounts of gross racism thrown their way, and that word is intrinsicly linked to that history when spoken by a white person.... maybe don't use it?
trying to argue that they themselves shouldn't use it is still a fallacy- the history revolves around the use of it by those above them, not them themselves.
like is this seriously a hill you want to die on?
"Black people should say the n word because white people aren't allowed to either and it'd be clique-y" like, please think about that real hard.
I'd say it's intrinsically linked to history, period. Regardless of who says it.
You are setting up a straw man. It's not a privilege to be able to use the "n word"; it's just strong language that has a lot of racial baggage to go along with it.
Again, I'm not really interested in arriving at some sort of measure by which the word is appropriate or not: I am more interested in how people support the position that it's not always offensive when one racial group uses it, but always when used by those outside such a tradition.
Well, I'd say it's intrinsically linked to history.
Yeah DarkPrimus has it. It's intrisically linked to history which means that a white person saying the word has a LOT more baggage behind it than another person who also happens to be African-American. Context matters here.
This isn't a strawman; you're asking why it's different and my argument is that not only is it absolutely different (because history) but also trying to argue that either everyone can use it or no-one should use it is a fallacy.
Among other things you're describing being a member of a racial group like being in a highschool clique.
No, not at all; we are all born of different ancestry: however much weight you give to it is up to you. There are very real social pressures in the world today, unfortunately some of these are due to race when they shouldn't be.
I argued that saying some language is appropriate for one race but not another is clique-ish. It's like saying everyone should stay inside their own lines, and on certain matters you should just never cross over.
I'm for dropping the expletive this strip is based on from the lexicon altogether.
I didn't think your posts could get any worse but then they did
look mate, if a word is highly offensive to an entire group of people who have been historically treated like subhumans, enslaved, and still now have huge amounts of gross racism thrown their way, and that word is intrinsicly linked to that history when spoken by a white person.... maybe don't use it?
trying to argue that they themselves shouldn't use it is still a fallacy- the history revolves around the use of it by those above them, not them themselves.
like is this seriously a hill you want to die on?
"Black people should say the n word because white people aren't allowed to either and it'd be clique-y" like, please think about that real hard.
I'd say it's intrinsically linked to history, period. Regardless of who says it.
You are setting up a straw man. It's not a privilege to be able to use the "n word"; it's just strong language that has a lot of racial baggage to go along with it.
Again, I'm not really interested in arriving at some sort of measure by which the word is appropriate or not: I am more interested in how people support the position that it's not always offensive when one racial group uses it, but always when used by those outside such a tradition.
Honestly not sure how (edit: or why) "because that the way it is" is such a difficult concept to grasp.
tastydonuts on
“I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
I am taking the context that you are presenting them in. Your inability to acknowledge that the context you present your opinions in carry certain connotations is your failing, not mine.
If I explicitly say that x thing is not what I mean and address why then you still assume x? That's you IGNORING context, not taking in the context they're presented in, nor is you adding random pieces of information that was not said. That's assumption, not context.
You have had plenty of time to clarify what your opinions are, and every time they have carried the same connotations that I originally called out. If these connotations are truly not your intent, why do you not take the time to re-frame your statements so that you can express what you are really trying to say, without having them weighed down by these connotations? You are somehow aware of these connotations, and do not agree with these connotations, yet you have not made the effort to workshop these connotations out of your subsequent posts. You have, instead, told me that the real problem is that I'm mentioning the connotations in your posts at all.
I cannot tell you how to better present what you are saying, because to do so would require me to make presumptions about the core of your true beliefs on these matters.
Because connotations are not factual. They are perception. I can't control how you perceive things and as far as I know there is no way I can remove those connotations beyond mentioning some of them and trying to explain why they don't apply yet you choose to still infer that connotation being the case rather than ask questions for clarity and actually discuss. I can't workshop out such connotations if you decide to instead make assumptions I've directly contradicted and don't participate in discussing why you don't seem to think such explanations are good enough because factually speaking? I'm not you. I don't know how you perceive the world or why you choose the follow those connotations while claiming giving me a benefit of the doubt which seems to me that it implies you know there are other interpretations possible.
EDIT: Hell, some of them I presented very simply under one simple idea: what is fair? Is anyone having an advantage over another truly fair in any form? To me the answer is no. Exceptions come about to adjust for the unfair actions taken in the world but in a just society my perception is fairness should ultimately rule. Idealistic? No doubt. However despite this simple idea, you have multiple times added pieces to it I specifically left out BECAUSE they were too limiting in my view. Too narrow of a scope. Instead being things I want seen from the perspective of any person in a certain situation, not merely certain races. I was very deliberate with that because if I were to hyper simplify things? I see them as issues of fairness above all else. What is fair is just, what is unfair is unjust. Again, I know this can come off as naive and idealistic but at the same time, even if the ideal is not achievable it still makes sense to strive for the ideal in what you can to get closer to it. So even the little things, on principle will bug me as that ideal can't be reached while they're in play but I also understand some of them exist because of other imbalances. Shifting things in any one direction too far seems wrong to me for that reason. Naive and idealistic? Sure, but I'd rather be that then to not always strive to improve on things that can be improved on.
I hope that helps paint the picture a little clearer. If not, well not sure what else to tell you. I'm a perfectionist and I'll never be truly happy with the situation until its perfect from all angles, no matter how impossible that may be.
Kuari999 on
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
edited April 2018
This seems relevant? A woman in South Africa was the first person ever to be imprisoned for racism. The word she used was not our word for it, but I think Trevor Noah makes a pretty good point about this story: White people who benefited from racism (apartheid, in this case, but in the US you can say White people who benefited from slavery and Jim Crow laws) were never punished for their actions, they were never fined nor jailed. The only thing they (and we) have to do was not use that word. That's it. That's getting off pretty goddamn easy.
I am taking the context that you are presenting them in. Your inability to acknowledge that the context you present your opinions in carry certain connotations is your failing, not mine.
If I explicitly say that x thing is not what I mean and address why then you still assume x? That's you IGNORING context, not taking in the context they're presented in, nor is you adding random pieces of information that was not said. That's assumption, not context.
When I tell you the connotations of something you said, the connotations are still there even if you didn't mean for them to be.
When I tell you connotations are there, and you tell me that you don't mean for them to be there, but then you continue to say things that carry the exact same connotations... it's not my fault that those connotations are still there.
You have been made aware of the connotations that are present. If you do not wish them to be there, then you need to change how you present your ideas.
While you're technically correct that telling a white person that they can't say a word is racism, it's not a racism that has any negative effects for the person experiencing it.
LOL.
"Racism" is the negative effect. It's not ok just because it's aimed at white people.
I would happily drop the whole thing if black people avoided the word too. Some do, most don't, and they have the laughable position of "it's our word, we get to use it but you're a racist if you use it". No moron, THAT is racist. In case anyone forgot, we actually have watched a political figure get run out of office because he correctly used the word NIGGARDLY. Just because he was white, and used a word that kinda sorta sounds like the dreaded N word that white people can't use because they're white. That's the kind of horseshit this issue has produced.
In the black community it's pretty much used as a joke. Plenty of black comedians base just about their whole act on it. And that's where it should be at this point in history. I never owned slaves, so fuck you if you want to punish me for it.
Incidentally I've had plenty of black friends who feel the same way, used the word as a joke and didn't give a shit when I did too. It's a minority of racist blacks and white guilt ridden whites who keep this nonsense alive.
"Only racists get angry when you call them the n-word" is definitely one of the hottest takes I've seen on this forum.
While you're technically correct that telling a white person that they can't say a word is racism, it's not a racism that has any negative effects for the person experiencing it.
LOL.
"Racism" is the negative effect. It's not ok just because it's aimed at white people.
I would happily drop the whole thing if black people avoided the word too. Some do, most don't, and they have the laughable position of "it's our word, we get to use it but you're a racist if you use it". No moron, THAT is racist. In case anyone forgot, we actually have watched a political figure get run out of office because he correctly used the word NIGGARDLY. Just because he was white, and used a word that kinda sorta sounds like the dreaded N word that white people can't use because they're white. That's the kind of horseshit this issue has produced.
In the black community it's pretty much used as a joke. Plenty of black comedians base just about their whole act on it. And that's where it should be at this point in history. I never owned slaves, so fuck you if you want to punish me for it.
Incidentally I've had plenty of black friends who feel the same way, used the word as a joke and didn't give a shit when I did too. It's a minority of racist blacks and white guilt ridden whites who keep this nonsense alive.
"Only racists get angry when you call them the n-word" is definitely one of the hottest takes I've seen on this forum.
Like, I'm on reddit daily, and this thread is still shocking me
While you're technically correct that telling a white person that they can't say a word is racism, it's not a racism that has any negative effects for the person experiencing it.
LOL.
"Racism" is the negative effect. It's not ok just because it's aimed at white people.
I would happily drop the whole thing if black people avoided the word too. Some do, most don't, and they have the laughable position of "it's our word, we get to use it but you're a racist if you use it". No moron, THAT is racist. In case anyone forgot, we actually have watched a political figure get run out of office because he correctly used the word NIGGARDLY. Just because he was white, and used a word that kinda sorta sounds like the dreaded N word that white people can't use because they're white. That's the kind of horseshit this issue has produced.
In the black community it's pretty much used as a joke. Plenty of black comedians base just about their whole act on it. And that's where it should be at this point in history. I never owned slaves, so fuck you if you want to punish me for it.
Incidentally I've had plenty of black friends who feel the same way, used the word as a joke and didn't give a shit when I did too. It's a minority of racist blacks and white guilt ridden whites who keep this nonsense alive.
Out of curiousity, where do you live? How many "black friends" is "plenty?"
Do you think that the people who used the term in a derogatory fashion stopped generations after the abolishment of slavery? That's a weird argument to make.
tastydonuts on
“I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
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Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
It's ok because I have white friends who are fine with black people using the N word.
Yeah DarkPrimus has it. It's intrisically linked to history which means that a white person saying the word has a LOT more baggage behind it than another person who also happens to be African-American. Context matters here.
This isn't a strawman; you're asking why it's different and my argument is that not only is it absolutely different (because history) but also trying to argue that either everyone can use it or no-one should use it is a fallacy.
Of course context matters, but you are shifting the focus to something which is not really that important to my argument.
You must have missed the part where I talk about building bridges, not walls.
"Only racists get angry when you call them the n-word" is definitely one of the hottest takes I've seen on this forum.
That's a nice fantasy. Now try replying to what I actually said, which was that treating people differently based on skin color is the definition of racism.
I would happily drop the whole thing if black people avoided the word too.
...
In the black community it's pretty much used as a joke. Plenty of black comedians base just about their whole act on it. And that's where it should be at this point in history. I never owned slaves, so fuck you if you want to punish me for it.
...
Incidentally I've had plenty of black friends who feel the same way, used the word as a joke and didn't give a shit when I did too. It's a minority of racist blacks and white guilt ridden whites who keep this nonsense alive.
-You you think it's fine to use the n-word because black people use it, too.
-Black people use it "pretty much as a joke," which means it doesn't carry a lot of weight when it's used by them.
-You never owned slaves, which means if someone gets upset with you if you use the n-word, that's on them.
-You have black friends who don't care when you use the n-word.
-"Only racist blacks and white guilt ridden whites" get upset about the use of the n-word.
All of this adds up to the conclusion that if you call someone the n-word and they get mad at you, they are either "a racist black" or a "white guilt ridden white." But you probably don't refer to white people as the n-word.
Wait, does this mean you don't refer to black people who you don't know as the n-word?
Why is that? After all, they would only get upset with you if they were, pardon my usage of your phrasing, in the minority.
If they got mad at you, it would only be because they were racist.
Or, maybe you know that words have power, that the n-word is a word almost unique with how powerful and charged a history it has, and so you actually know that it would be incredibly rude and presumptuous of you to go around referring to strangers you don't know as the n-word.
In which case, what you previously asserted isn't what you actually believe, you were just caught up in the heat of the moment, and you're going to take the time to course-correct and let us all know what you really meant.
Yeah DarkPrimus has it. It's intrisically linked to history which means that a white person saying the word has a LOT more baggage behind it than another person who also happens to be African-American. Context matters here.
This isn't a strawman; you're asking why it's different and my argument is that not only is it absolutely different (because history) but also trying to argue that either everyone can use it or no-one should use it is a fallacy.
Of course context matters, but you are shifting the focus to something which is not really that important to my argument.
You must have missed the part where I talk about building bridges, not walls.
you know what would be a great bridge to build?
one where it's not okay for some folks to use a word, but it's alright for some others. because history and context matters
then once you've built that bridge you can get over it
Yeah DarkPrimus has it. It's intrisically linked to history which means that a white person saying the word has a LOT more baggage behind it than another person who also happens to be African-American. Context matters here.
This isn't a strawman; you're asking why it's different and my argument is that not only is it absolutely different (because history) but also trying to argue that either everyone can use it or no-one should use it is a fallacy.
Of course context matters, but you are shifting the focus to something which is not really that important to my argument.
You must have missed the part where I talk about building bridges, not walls.
you know what would be a great bridge to build?
one where it's not okay for some folks to use a word, but it's alright for some others. because history and context matters
then once you've built that bridge you can get over it
No, see, it's " it's intrinsically linked to history, period. Regardless of who says it," which means that you shouldn't consider the history of the usage of the word when you use it.
Hmm, wait, that can't be right. It seems that Phaserlight started out by saying one thing, but then continued and said a bunch of other things that contradicted the first bit.
While this was all very fun for someone, presumably, the idea that you should not say the N word is about as settled as forum law gets. I'm not terribly interested in the custom of people who believe they should be allowed to say it, and I'm not terribly interested in their torturous reasoning for it. Anyone who is still interested in explaining why "actually, saying the N word is fine!" should consider this a firm instruction to do so elsewhere.
Do you think that the people who used the term in a derogatory fashion stopped generations after the abolishment of slavery? That's a weird argument to make.
I like how you asked a question, and then assumed an answer, then skipped straight to calling it a "weird argument" (that I didn't make).
It doesn't qualify you to have an opinion, as that wasn't the point: just establishes perspective. Where both the deep south and suburbs of Philly (and Philly itself, esp South Philly) are places historically known for racist activity. I can say this having lived in this region over 20 years.
In any case, no I didn't assume an answer. You said it was okay to use it w/o "punishment" because you didn't own slaves. Your words:
... I never owned slaves, so fuck you if you want to punish me for it.
Where punishment in this context is not using a slur.
When the facts around the word and its use are
the slur wasn't used by just slave owners.
the slur wasn't just directed toward slaves during the pre-emancipation era
the slur had continued use post-emancipation, in a negative context, particularly by whites.
The word is still a slur when it's used by blacks toward blacks—however—the camaraderie/shared link of blackness that exists between them, often with some other bond (family/neighbor/associate/friend), is what makes it "okay" or less offensive.
Would I be correct in assuming that you feel it is okay to use the word because you yourself, are not "racist?"
“I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
Yeah DarkPrimus has it. It's intrisically linked to history which means that a white person saying the word has a LOT more baggage behind it than another person who also happens to be African-American. Context matters here.
This isn't a strawman; you're asking why it's different and my argument is that not only is it absolutely different (because history) but also trying to argue that either everyone can use it or no-one should use it is a fallacy.
Of course context matters, but you are shifting the focus to something which is not really that important to my argument.
You must have missed the part where I talk about building bridges, not walls.
you know what would be a great bridge to build?
one where it's not okay for some folks to use a word, but it's alright for some others. because history and context matters
then once you've built that bridge you can get over it
No, see, it's " it's intrinsically linked to history, period. Regardless of who says it," which means that you shouldn't consider the history of the usage of the word when you use it.
Hmm, wait, that can't be right. It seems that Phaserlight started out by saying one thing, but then continued and said a bunch of other things that contradicted the first bit.
Saying something is intrinsically linked to history means that history shouldn't be considered? That's the complete opposite of what those words mean.
This is an utter tangent.
My second post in this thread was aimed at addressing isolationism, and clearly stating the goal of increasing cross-cultural dialog. I am not promoting foul language in any way: merely trying to relate.
I'd just like to remind some of ya'll that you can use whatever word you want.
You can literally call me the N-word to my face and there's not a whole lot I can do about it, unless I want to catch a charge. No one is going to cart you off to jail, fine you or execute you in the street for saying the N-Word specifically (people have lost their jobs or been fined for violating conduct policies but not for saying a specific magical word). However, your constant assertion that you "can't" say the word (when the reality is that you "shouldn't") speaks more to your personal feelings of privilege and entitlement. Having your ability to express yourself as perfectly as you'd like blunted, even slightly, somehow makes you behave as if you've been completely hobbled. That perspective is hard to identify with, let alone respect, as you try to make a case from your tower.
Can anyone transcribe where in that video he uses the word. Because so far, I can't hear it no matter how hard I listen, and all I've seen is people saying they can't hear it either. Another person saying they don't hear it either, but if he apologized for it, he must have said it.
Just take you best stab at where you think it was. Transcribe it in the sentence.
I'm curious both if anyone can, and if multiple people can, if they agree.
"...*gibberish* smoking the indica, my n***a-my n***ga *gibberish*-ize ya..."
I can hear it. He rhymes "my n***a" with *indica*. In fact he almost says it twice but seems to catch himself the second time resulting in his rhyme scheme falling apart. The guy was free styling and doing not a half bad job of it. That to me says he freestyles quite a bit which means he probably listens to a lot of hip-hop and enjoys the culture. That plus being a member of the gaming community means it's safe to assume the N-word is part of his vocabulary, even if he only uses in "safe" company. The only way for the word to slip publicly is if you practice it privately.
Can anyone transcribe where in that video he uses the word. Because so far, I can't hear it no matter how hard I listen, and all I've seen is people saying they can't hear it either. Another person saying they don't hear it either, but if he apologized for it, he must have said it.
Just take you best stab at where you think it was. Transcribe it in the sentence.
I'm curious both if anyone can, and if multiple people can, if they agree.
Is your argument that because it wasn't a "hard R" it doesn't count or something? /ponder
Ayy, bitch, I've been goin' and goin' like the Energizer
Yeah, I'm supplyin' the wood like Elijah
In the cut, smokin' on indica
Might fuck around and compartmentalize ya
They say, they say life is a bitch
And if that is the case then I'm finna surprise her...
In the spoiler is the actual performer singing it (it's the first third of the song, doesn't really have stanzas.)
These are the points where he may have said it, transcribing the video that was linked earlier:
I've been goin' and goin' like the Energizer
Yeah, I'm supplyin' the wood like Elijah
These N-? smokin' the indica,
my N-?, my N-?, compartmentalize ya
They say, They say life is a bitch
And if that is the case then I'm finna surprise her...
tastydonuts on
“I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
Oh wow. I didn't know it was a real song. So he's just.... bad at singing rap songs.
Yeah, the irony of this situation being that Logic is a mixed race rapper who grew up with the black side of his family. He also looks white. He's stated the doesn't use it in public, even if he may use freely in private conversations with his family. But eh. :P
“I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
Can anyone transcribe where in that video he uses the word. Because so far, I can't hear it no matter how hard I listen, and all I've seen is people saying they can't hear it either. Another person saying they don't hear it either, but if he apologized for it, he must have said it.
Just take you best stab at where you think it was. Transcribe it in the sentence.
I'm curious both if anyone can, and if multiple people can, if they agree.
Is your argument that because it wasn't a "hard R" it doesn't count or something? /ponder
No. I just literally couldn't hear it. Literally all I could hear is grunting ending in -a.
Although with your transcript so I now know where to look, and slowing the video down to 25% speed, I think I can make out the word?
I said before "Is there some third form of the word I don't know about?" and maybe that's what's happening here. I never listen to rap music, much less free style rap. Maybe in that context, a grunt ending in -a is understood by everyone to be the word.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
Ok, with the transcript I get it. But yeah before you wrote it out it sounds like he could be saying anything with "ga" at the end. I heard: maniga, eniga, neniga, etc, none of which are actually words of course, but I couldn't understand a lot of what he was saying anyway. (I'm an old)
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I'd say it's intrinsically linked to history, period. Regardless of who says it.
You are setting up a straw man. It's not a privilege to be able to use the "n word"; it's just strong language that has a lot of racial baggage to go along with it.
Again, I'm not really interested in arriving at some sort of measure by which the word is appropriate or not: I am more interested in how people support the position that it's not always offensive when one racial group uses it, but always when used by those outside such a tradition.
Well, I'd say it's intrinsically linked to history.
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This isn't a strawman; you're asking why it's different and my argument is that not only is it absolutely different (because history) but also trying to argue that either everyone can use it or no-one should use it is a fallacy.
Honestly not sure how (edit: or why) "because that the way it is" is such a difficult concept to grasp.
If I explicitly say that x thing is not what I mean and address why then you still assume x? That's you IGNORING context, not taking in the context they're presented in, nor is you adding random pieces of information that was not said. That's assumption, not context.
http://libguides.webster.edu/c.php?g=98104&p=634089
Because connotations are not factual. They are perception. I can't control how you perceive things and as far as I know there is no way I can remove those connotations beyond mentioning some of them and trying to explain why they don't apply yet you choose to still infer that connotation being the case rather than ask questions for clarity and actually discuss. I can't workshop out such connotations if you decide to instead make assumptions I've directly contradicted and don't participate in discussing why you don't seem to think such explanations are good enough because factually speaking? I'm not you. I don't know how you perceive the world or why you choose the follow those connotations while claiming giving me a benefit of the doubt which seems to me that it implies you know there are other interpretations possible.
EDIT: Hell, some of them I presented very simply under one simple idea: what is fair? Is anyone having an advantage over another truly fair in any form? To me the answer is no. Exceptions come about to adjust for the unfair actions taken in the world but in a just society my perception is fairness should ultimately rule. Idealistic? No doubt. However despite this simple idea, you have multiple times added pieces to it I specifically left out BECAUSE they were too limiting in my view. Too narrow of a scope. Instead being things I want seen from the perspective of any person in a certain situation, not merely certain races. I was very deliberate with that because if I were to hyper simplify things? I see them as issues of fairness above all else. What is fair is just, what is unfair is unjust. Again, I know this can come off as naive and idealistic but at the same time, even if the ideal is not achievable it still makes sense to strive for the ideal in what you can to get closer to it. So even the little things, on principle will bug me as that ideal can't be reached while they're in play but I also understand some of them exist because of other imbalances. Shifting things in any one direction too far seems wrong to me for that reason. Naive and idealistic? Sure, but I'd rather be that then to not always strive to improve on things that can be improved on.
I hope that helps paint the picture a little clearer. If not, well not sure what else to tell you. I'm a perfectionist and I'll never be truly happy with the situation until its perfect from all angles, no matter how impossible that may be.
edit: but yeah like Germany and nazi stuff they have laws like fines in place. the prison thing is newer?
When I tell you the connotations of something you said, the connotations are still there even if you didn't mean for them to be.
When I tell you connotations are there, and you tell me that you don't mean for them to be there, but then you continue to say things that carry the exact same connotations... it's not my fault that those connotations are still there.
You have been made aware of the connotations that are present. If you do not wish them to be there, then you need to change how you present your ideas.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
"Only racists get angry when you call them the n-word" is definitely one of the hottest takes I've seen on this forum.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Like, I'm on reddit daily, and this thread is still shocking me
Out of curiousity, where do you live? How many "black friends" is "plenty?"
Do you think that the people who used the term in a derogatory fashion stopped generations after the abolishment of slavery? That's a weird argument to make.
Not really no? And it's kinda telling that you think it does.
Of course context matters, but you are shifting the focus to something which is not really that important to my argument.
You must have missed the part where I talk about building bridges, not walls.
What you actually said was:
-You you think it's fine to use the n-word because black people use it, too.
-Black people use it "pretty much as a joke," which means it doesn't carry a lot of weight when it's used by them.
-You never owned slaves, which means if someone gets upset with you if you use the n-word, that's on them.
-You have black friends who don't care when you use the n-word.
-"Only racist blacks and white guilt ridden whites" get upset about the use of the n-word.
All of this adds up to the conclusion that if you call someone the n-word and they get mad at you, they are either "a racist black" or a "white guilt ridden white." But you probably don't refer to white people as the n-word.
Wait, does this mean you don't refer to black people who you don't know as the n-word?
Why is that? After all, they would only get upset with you if they were, pardon my usage of your phrasing, in the minority.
If they got mad at you, it would only be because they were racist.
Or, maybe you know that words have power, that the n-word is a word almost unique with how powerful and charged a history it has, and so you actually know that it would be incredibly rude and presumptuous of you to go around referring to strangers you don't know as the n-word.
In which case, what you previously asserted isn't what you actually believe, you were just caught up in the heat of the moment, and you're going to take the time to course-correct and let us all know what you really meant.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
you know what would be a great bridge to build?
one where it's not okay for some folks to use a word, but it's alright for some others. because history and context matters
then once you've built that bridge you can get over it
No, see, it's " it's intrinsically linked to history, period. Regardless of who says it," which means that you shouldn't consider the history of the usage of the word when you use it.
Hmm, wait, that can't be right. It seems that Phaserlight started out by saying one thing, but then continued and said a bunch of other things that contradicted the first bit.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
It doesn't qualify you to have an opinion, as that wasn't the point: just establishes perspective. Where both the deep south and suburbs of Philly (and Philly itself, esp South Philly) are places historically known for racist activity. I can say this having lived in this region over 20 years.
In any case, no I didn't assume an answer. You said it was okay to use it w/o "punishment" because you didn't own slaves. Your words:
Where punishment in this context is not using a slur.
When the facts around the word and its use are
Would I be correct in assuming that you feel it is okay to use the word because you yourself, are not "racist?"
Saying something is intrinsically linked to history means that history shouldn't be considered? That's the complete opposite of what those words mean.
This is an utter tangent.
My second post in this thread was aimed at addressing isolationism, and clearly stating the goal of increasing cross-cultural dialog. I am not promoting foul language in any way: merely trying to relate.
You can literally call me the N-word to my face and there's not a whole lot I can do about it, unless I want to catch a charge. No one is going to cart you off to jail, fine you or execute you in the street for saying the N-Word specifically (people have lost their jobs or been fined for violating conduct policies but not for saying a specific magical word). However, your constant assertion that you "can't" say the word (when the reality is that you "shouldn't") speaks more to your personal feelings of privilege and entitlement. Having your ability to express yourself as perfectly as you'd like blunted, even slightly, somehow makes you behave as if you've been completely hobbled. That perspective is hard to identify with, let alone respect, as you try to make a case from your tower.
Can anyone transcribe where in that video he uses the word. Because so far, I can't hear it no matter how hard I listen, and all I've seen is people saying they can't hear it either. Another person saying they don't hear it either, but if he apologized for it, he must have said it.
Just take you best stab at where you think it was. Transcribe it in the sentence.
I'm curious both if anyone can, and if multiple people can, if they agree.
I can hear it. He rhymes "my n***a" with *indica*. In fact he almost says it twice but seems to catch himself the second time resulting in his rhyme scheme falling apart. The guy was free styling and doing not a half bad job of it. That to me says he freestyles quite a bit which means he probably listens to a lot of hip-hop and enjoys the culture. That plus being a member of the gaming community means it's safe to assume the N-word is part of his vocabulary, even if he only uses in "safe" company. The only way for the word to slip publicly is if you practice it privately.
Is your argument that because it wasn't a "hard R" it doesn't count or something? /ponder
Anyway, here's the video:
Here's the lyrics:
In the spoiler is the actual performer singing it (it's the first third of the song, doesn't really have stanzas.)
These are the points where he may have said it, transcribing the video that was linked earlier:
Yeah, the irony of this situation being that Logic is a mixed race rapper who grew up with the black side of his family. He also looks white. He's stated the doesn't use it in public, even if he may use freely in private conversations with his family. But eh. :P
No. I just literally couldn't hear it. Literally all I could hear is grunting ending in -a.
Although with your transcript so I now know where to look, and slowing the video down to 25% speed, I think I can make out the word?
I said before "Is there some third form of the word I don't know about?" and maybe that's what's happening here. I never listen to rap music, much less free style rap. Maybe in that context, a grunt ending in -a is understood by everyone to be the word.
Warned @wallywest (0 points for 1 week) for "Kicked from thread: Not welcome"
Warned @wallywest (0 points for 1 week) for "Kicked from thread: Not welcome"
Warned @wallywest (0 points for 1 week) for "Kicked from thread: Not welcome"
Warned @wallywest (0 points for 1 week) for "Kicked from thread: Not welcome"