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[Board games] I choose poorly.

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    CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    38thDoe wrote: »
    Kasyn wrote: »
    Kickstarter is almost becoming a matter of process in the development of every board game, with the exception of titles being developed/published by an extremely small number of incredibly well established people. If you resent it right now, you are in for a tough time in this hobby.

    Embrace it! I think it's a pretty great way to discover upcoming games and stay up on the pulse of the industry.

    When I play a game I like and want to buy it I want to hear "You can buy it right over there" not "Find a time machine"

    Most of the time if that's the case then you never would have gotten to play that game in the first place without kickstarter. I probably wouldn't buy Kingdom Death: Monster even if I could but there's absolutely no way that thing would have ever found a traditional publisher.

    There are certain kinds of games that kickstarter enables which I don't care for at all, and I avoid anything where it's likely to get a retail release but without actual game components that backers receive but I own a number of really good games that wouldn't exist without kickstarter's help so I keep on backing stuff despite also owning a number of games that I definitely would not have purchased had I gotten to play them first.

    PSN,Steam,Live | CptHamiltonian
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    ArcSynArcSyn Registered User regular
    Friend gifted me Covert for my birthday. Somehow this has entirely slipped under my radar, but looks interesting.

    Anyone got suggestions for easy mistakes I should avoid while learning and teaching at the same time?

    4dm3dwuxq302.png
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    ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    I feel like the discussion has not properly differentiated kickstarter as a platform where people can get their games made who otherwise had no jumping off point, from companies using kickstarter having a baker's dozen add-ons that'll never see the light of day again and exist mostly to inflate numbers via people with impulse control and "I CAN'T MISS OUT!" fever. :/
    I do quite like the former. It's overall good for the hobby to give the little guy a soap box to stand on.
    I'm tired of the latter. It often skews perception and becomes more about value proposition than the game itself.

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    Ah_PookAh_Pook Registered User regular
    I realized I'd rather just buy a game that's available than preorder a game 1-2 years before it's actually going to be available while also paying way more than if I had just waited for it to come out. My personal tastes help with this, as I don't give many fucks about the kinds of games that get stupid amounts of Kickstarter exclusive bullshit to fret over and then never actually use.

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    ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    Yeah, if I wanted to wait 1-5 years for a game to come out, I'd just P500 more things through GMT.
    ;D

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    InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    Also for me the direction that kickstarter has pushed boardgames is not the direction I personally like.

    Tons of miniatures? No thank you, I have 40k, skirmish games, and gunpla as my miniature hobbies. Please give me cardboard and wooden tokens. All you are doing is making overly bulky playing pieces and making the game box larger and thus more difficult to store.

    Day 0 expansions and variants. No thank you, I want a board game with a rule set that you have thoroughly tested and feel confident about. I don't want you to shotgun a ton of things out and let me sort it out. I only want to see an expansion from you after many, many people have played the games for years and it has become apparent in what directions the game could be expanded, if it needs to be expanded at all.

    Obviously not all kickstarte games are like this, but, the kickstarter model definitely encourages this.

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    jergarmarjergarmar hollow man crew goes pew pew pewRegistered User regular
    edited June 2018
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Also for me the direction that kickstarter has pushed boardgames is not the direction I personally like.

    Tons of miniatures? No thank you, I have 40k, skirmish games, and gunpla as my miniature hobbies. Please give me cardboard and wooden tokens. All you are doing is making overly bulky playing pieces and making the game box larger and thus more difficult to store.

    Day 0 expansions and variants. No thank you, I want a board game with a rule set that you have thoroughly tested and feel confident about. I don't want you to shotgun a ton of things out and let me sort it out. I only want to see an expansion from you after many, many people have played the games for years and it has become apparent in what directions the game could be expanded, if it needs to be expanded at all.

    Obviously not all kickstarte games are like this, but, the kickstarter model definitely encourages this.

    I agree with you almost completely (I love well-made but simple tokens, where even maintaining the game state is itself enjoyable)... but concerning expansions it's very common for an expansion to be fully developed when the base game is released. It's surprisingly uncommon for an expansion to contain elements gleaned from community feedback.

    jergarmar on
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    GvzbgulGvzbgul Registered User regular
    With the plethora of games coming out it is very easy for me to not buy one. If a board game kickstarter wants to go hog wild, cool. I won't touch it with a 10 foot pole though.

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    InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    jergarmar wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Also for me the direction that kickstarter has pushed boardgames is not the direction I personally like.

    Tons of miniatures? No thank you, I have 40k, skirmish games, and gunpla as my miniature hobbies. Please give me cardboard and wooden tokens. All you are doing is making overly bulky playing pieces and making the game box larger and thus more difficult to store.

    Day 0 expansions and variants. No thank you, I want a board game with a rule set that you have thoroughly tested and feel confident about. I don't want you to shotgun a ton of things out and let me sort it out. I only want to see an expansion from you after many, many people have played the games for years and it has become apparent in what directions the game could be expanded, if it needs to be expanded at all.

    Obviously not all kickstarte games are like this, but, the kickstarter model definitely encourages this.

    I agree with you almost completely (I love well-made but simple tokens, where even maintaining the game state is itself enjoyable)... but concerning expansions it's very common for an expansion to be fully developed when the base game is released. It's surprisingly uncommon for an expansion to contain elements gleaned from community feedback.

    Many moons ago it was the norm, or at least that's how it felt to me. Catan was 95, Seafarers was 97. BSG was 2008, Pegasus was 2009. And so on.

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    Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo We are only now beginning to understand the full power and ramifications of sexual intercourse Registered User regular
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    jergarmar wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Also for me the direction that kickstarter has pushed boardgames is not the direction I personally like.

    Tons of miniatures? No thank you, I have 40k, skirmish games, and gunpla as my miniature hobbies. Please give me cardboard and wooden tokens. All you are doing is making overly bulky playing pieces and making the game box larger and thus more difficult to store.

    Day 0 expansions and variants. No thank you, I want a board game with a rule set that you have thoroughly tested and feel confident about. I don't want you to shotgun a ton of things out and let me sort it out. I only want to see an expansion from you after many, many people have played the games for years and it has become apparent in what directions the game could be expanded, if it needs to be expanded at all.

    Obviously not all kickstarte games are like this, but, the kickstarter model definitely encourages this.

    I agree with you almost completely (I love well-made but simple tokens, where even maintaining the game state is itself enjoyable)... but concerning expansions it's very common for an expansion to be fully developed when the base game is released. It's surprisingly uncommon for an expansion to contain elements gleaned from community feedback.

    Many moons ago it was the norm, or at least that's how it felt to me. Catan was 95, Seafarers was 97. BSG was 2008, Pegasus was 2009. And so on.

    Seafarers is the iconic example of an expansion that was designed from day one! It wasn't even intended as an expansion but just as part of the core game, it was axed as it made the game too expensive to include all the bits in one box. It's why the expansion is essential

    Homogeneous distribution of your varieties of amuse-gueule
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    38thDoe38thDoe lets never be stupid again wait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered User regular
    Wife and I have played a ton of Lords of Waterdeep but I've never played the expansion. Someone had it at the meetup, and it was really fun if not the best balanced. Playing as the Xanathar seems odd when there is a quest to kill him. Also the Xanathar player popped a card that puts his lord out on display, but makes him immune to every negative action in the game with no counter... not sure what they were thinking there. We had to look up a card interacting with that indirectly, and the response on BGG was remove Open Lord from the game so you don't have these problems and so that the game is balanced.

    The new mechanic corruption is fun, at one point I was down -72 corruption points, but I had a building that removed 2 corruption from the game and I completed the quest that lets you use a square that your opponent is occupying. So every turn I just had to reassign someone back there and finished with no corruption. Feels like corruption makes more interesting choices than the base game.

    I thought about buying the expansion but it seems to be $40. I feel like I paid less than that for the base game. Also the setup seems to be pretty annoying with the remove 12 random buildings, intrigue cards, quest cards and reshuffle each time. Is there a recommended way to play the game without having to do all of that and all of the work pulling the expansion cards after the game?

    Was trying to decided between buying the expansion, buying Nusford and then I noticed that the store had gloomhaven come in. Too indecisive to make a choice I went home.

    Also played Dice Throne again. I can't say I'm much of a fan of it as a game. Its basically just roll dice and hope for the best. I guess the same can be said for most dice games.

    38thDoE on steam
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    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    You definitely need the expansions for Lords of Waterdeep, but at that point it's nearly a $150 game and it's nowhere near compelling enough to justify that.

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    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    Played Unlock game for the first time. We went with the haunted house one since it was the lowest difficulty and best theme (the choice was between that and clowns....)

    I didn't dislike it, but nowhere near as good as the Exit games, which has been the unanimous opinion I've seen online (except SU&SD, of course...).

    Leaned way too heavily on having to spot hidden numbers in the background of some cards. Some of them are so hard to see that even after the hint system told us exactly where to look, we still had a lot of trouble. Not only were they ridiculous to spot if you didn't know where to look, you never knew which card would have them so you had to take time to comb over every single card looking for hard to spot hidden numbers that may or may not be there. It felt more like we were reading the back of a Highlights for Children magazine than an escape game. The couple of puzzles they had were decent, but they needed a higher ratio of puzzles to hidden number spotting.

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    Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    MrBody wrote: »
    Played Unlock game for the first time. We went with the haunted house one since it was the lowest difficulty and best theme (the choice was between that and clowns....)

    I didn't dislike it, but nowhere near as good as the Exit games, which has been the unanimous opinion I've seen online (except SU&SD, of course...).

    Leaned way too heavily on having to spot hidden numbers in the background of some cards. Some of them are so hard to see that even after the hint system told us exactly where to look, we still had a lot of trouble. Not only were they ridiculous to spot if you didn't know where to look, you never knew which card would have them so you had to take time to comb over every single card looking for hard to spot hidden numbers that may or may not be there. It felt more like we were reading the back of a Highlights for Children magazine than an escape game. The couple of puzzles they had were decent, but they needed a higher ratio of puzzles to hidden number spotting.
    The Hidden Numbers are my main problem with Unlock, although Unlock can be played multiple times by different groups (whereas most of the Exit games cannot be replayed/donated to friends without reprinting some of the materials or being very careful with the materials and not destroying them). However, there are some truly inventive and fun puzzles and stumpers in some of the later Unlocks that I really enjoyed. Like "Holy shit, AHA!" moments, which is basically the high that I chase when I play Escape Room games.

    One of the more recent Unlock games (from the last English batch) has a silly dexterity game built into it, which was a bit weird. At least they are trying some new things to keep you on your toes, I guess.

    8i1dt37buh2m.png
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    38thDoe38thDoe lets never be stupid again wait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered User regular
    MrBody wrote: »
    You definitely need the expansions for Lords of Waterdeep, but at that point it's nearly a $150 game and it's nowhere near compelling enough to justify that.

    Well I already have the base game. So I guess its just deciding if the expansion is worth the $40. Although the two together does seem pretty expensive at $100. Or is there another expansion? I guess I'll get Nusford first and then if nothing else catches my eye I'll pickup skullport when my store credit burns a hole in my pocket.

    38thDoE on steam
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    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    MrBody wrote: »
    Played Unlock game for the first time. We went with the haunted house one since it was the lowest difficulty and best theme (the choice was between that and clowns....)

    I didn't dislike it, but nowhere near as good as the Exit games, which has been the unanimous opinion I've seen online (except SU&SD, of course...).

    Leaned way too heavily on having to spot hidden numbers in the background of some cards. Some of them are so hard to see that even after the hint system told us exactly where to look, we still had a lot of trouble. Not only were they ridiculous to spot if you didn't know where to look, you never knew which card would have them so you had to take time to comb over every single card looking for hard to spot hidden numbers that may or may not be there. It felt more like we were reading the back of a Highlights for Children magazine than an escape game. The couple of puzzles they had were decent, but they needed a higher ratio of puzzles to hidden number spotting.
    The Hidden Numbers are my main problem with Unlock, although Unlock can be played multiple times by different groups (whereas most of the Exit games cannot be replayed/donated to friends without reprinting some of the materials or being very careful with the materials and not destroying them). However, there are some truly inventive and fun puzzles and stumpers in some of the later Unlocks that I really enjoyed. Like "Holy shit, AHA!" moments, which is basically the high that I chase when I play Escape Room games.

    One of the more recent Unlock games (from the last English batch) has a silly dexterity game built into it, which was a bit weird. At least they are trying some new things to keep you on your toes, I guess.

    Exit is very easy to get around that silly "can only play once" aspect by just having a scanner/camera and printer nearby. A 30 second break a couple times over the course of one wasn't that big an inconvenience.

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    ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    edited June 2018
    MrBody wrote: »
    You definitely need the expansions for Lords of Waterdeep, but at that point it's nearly a $150 game and it's nowhere near compelling enough to justify that.

    The base game and expansion can be had on Amazon for like $65 total which is not bad at ALL for what you get. It's a gateway game that can transform into a medium-light game.

    I'm thinking about getting a couple roll and write games. They seem like an ideal travel scenario since it minimizes shit going everywhere and potentially low footprint. I'm thinking of La Granja, the dice game, or Castles of Burgundy the dice game. Anyone have any experiences with them?

    ChaosHat on
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    HedgethornHedgethorn Associate Professor of Historical Hobby Horses In the Lions' DenRegistered User regular
    edited June 2018
    Re: Lords of Waterdeep expansions: You only have to pull out buildings and intrigue cards from the base game if you're using both expansion modules for Waterdeep at the same time. If you just play with the Skullport board, and leave all the Undermountain content in the box, setup and tear down time stays the same. (That's my preferred way to play, even with brand new players, and my sense is that's the majority opinion in the community as well.) Otherwise, if you want to use both expansion modules, there's a sheet on BGG of recommended components to remove from the base game to keep everything well balanced.

    Hedgethorn on
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    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited June 2018
    I have a Pandemic Legacy question for people who have beaten it. It's a July/August question.
    We found the Virologist the very first game that objective was available. I noticed when playing the next month (August) that the Virologist card was under the "reveal after your first game in August" card. Does that mean we have access to this character now that we succeeded in finding them? I think there's another character or two in the stack of story cards (not going to look ahead to confirm, obvs) but it'd be nice to know if we could use this character for next session.

    DarkPrimus on
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    HedgethornHedgethorn Associate Professor of Historical Hobby Horses In the Lions' DenRegistered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    I have a Pandemic Legacy question for people who have beaten it. It's a July/August question.
    We found the Virologist the very first game that objective was available. I noticed when playing the next month (August) that the Virologist card was under the "reveal after your first game in August" card. Does that mean we have access to this character now that we succeeded in finding them? I think there's another character or two in the stack of story cards (not going to look ahead to confirm, obvs) but it'd be nice to know if we could use this character for next session.

    That is exactly what that means.

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    Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    I have a Pandemic Legacy question for people who have beaten it. It's a July/August question.
    We found the Virologist the very first game that objective was available. I noticed when playing the next month (August) that the Virologist card was under the "reveal after your first game in August" card. Does that mean we have access to this character now that we succeeded in finding them? I think there's another character or two in the stack of story cards (not going to look ahead to confirm, obvs) but it'd be nice to know if we could use this character for next session.
    You get access to them after the first game in August. So if you fail August or you succeed and move on to September, you get the Virologist. You won't have access to the character in the 1st month of August. Think of it as finding the character, but the character hasn't moved to the CDC yet.

    8i1dt37buh2m.png
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    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    I have a Pandemic Legacy question for people who have beaten it. It's a July/August question.
    We found the Virologist the very first game that objective was available. I noticed when playing the next month (August) that the Virologist card was under the "reveal after your first game in August" card. Does that mean we have access to this character now that we succeeded in finding them? I think there's another character or two in the stack of story cards (not going to look ahead to confirm, obvs) but it'd be nice to know if we could use this character for next session.
    You get access to them after the first game in August. So if you fail August or you succeed and move on to September, you get the Virologist. You won't have access to the character in the 1st month of August. Think of it as finding the character, but the character hasn't moved to the CDC yet.
    Okay, awesome! Next time we play I'll make sure to get them out so we can look at their abilities and start thinking about if we want to use them or not.

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    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    MrBody wrote: »
    You definitely need the expansions for Lords of Waterdeep, but at that point it's nearly a $150 game and it's nowhere near compelling enough to justify that.

    The base game and expansion can be had on Amazon for like $65 total which is not bad at ALL for what you get. It's a gateway game that can transform into a medium-light game.

    I'm thinking about getting a couple roll and write games. They seem like an ideal travel scenario since it minimizes shit going everywhere and potentially low footprint. I'm thinking of La Granja, the dice game, or Castles of Burgundy the dice game. Anyone have any experiences with them?

    Well I support my local retail FLGS, commie!

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    38thDoe38thDoe lets never be stupid again wait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    MrBody wrote: »
    You definitely need the expansions for Lords of Waterdeep, but at that point it's nearly a $150 game and it's nowhere near compelling enough to justify that.

    The base game and expansion can be had on Amazon for like $65 total which is not bad at ALL for what you get. It's a gateway game that can transform into a medium-light game.

    I'm thinking about getting a couple roll and write games. They seem like an ideal travel scenario since it minimizes shit going everywhere and potentially low footprint. I'm thinking of La Granja, the dice game, or Castles of Burgundy the dice game. Anyone have any experiences with them?

    It is technically Flip and Write, but Welcome to is super fun and easy to learn. I also played one based on the tokyo subway but I was never told the name. Japanese import. Fun though.

    38thDoE on steam
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    ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    MrBody wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    MrBody wrote: »
    You definitely need the expansions for Lords of Waterdeep, but at that point it's nearly a $150 game and it's nowhere near compelling enough to justify that.

    The base game and expansion can be had on Amazon for like $65 total which is not bad at ALL for what you get. It's a gateway game that can transform into a medium-light game.

    I'm thinking about getting a couple roll and write games. They seem like an ideal travel scenario since it minimizes shit going everywhere and potentially low footprint. I'm thinking of La Granja, the dice game, or Castles of Burgundy the dice game. Anyone have any experiences with them?

    Well I support my local retail FLGS, commie!

    I support them where it makes sense. I buy all my Netrunner (RIP) and L5R packs from them. I'll also buy small box games where the delta between what they charge and Amazon makes sense. Like, CoB:TDG costs not very much there, it's an easy win for both of us. I also go to events and pay the cover, and basically once a year on my birthday I'll drop about $100 there (when your account gets to $100 you get 10% off your next purchase and I just roll that from year to year) even though I know I could get better bang for my buck elsewhere. Since I've slowed down acquisitions, that's basically been most of my purchases for the last year or two.

    But sometimes it's hard to support them for full MSRP, especially in the Lords of Waterdeep example. I don't think the whole thing is worth a hundred bucks. At $60? Sure absolutely. I also wish they sold soda and stuff like most game stores do because I would buy that there at tournaments instead of going next door to the CVS, even if it cost more.

    Basically, I like to find where we can live harmoniously.

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    Ah_PookAh_Pook Registered User regular
    edited June 2018
    Castles of Burgundy the dice game is great. Captures some of feel of the boardgame but simplified down into a quick little puzzle. Our most played Roll and writes are easily Rolling America and Qwixx. Both super simple and quick little fillers.

    Ah_Pook on
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    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    edited June 2018
    You tell yourself that when the Soviet hordes are washing over the blasted wasteland of this once great country. Me, I'll be holding out on top a hill waving the American flag while HEY who wants to buy my discounted complete Arkham Horror collection?

    MrBody on
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    zanetheinsanezanetheinsane Registered User regular
    I am super late to the party but I just found Lords of Water deep with Scoundrels of Skullport for $52 on eBay all-in. It's been on my list for a while and seeing everyone here talking about it made me check prices again.

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    38thDoe38thDoe lets never be stupid again wait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered User regular
    If its in good shape its a good deal. Depending on shipping I guess. $65 on amazon, 90 at my Board game shop.

    38thDoE on steam
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    KasynKasyn I'm not saying I don't like our chances. She called me the master.Registered User regular
    My group is nearing the end of our unanimously agreed-upon one year moratorium on all legacy games, after finishing Pandemic Legacy, which we all loved. Just not a style of game you want to necessarily commit to back to back.

    Sooooo I picked up Gloomhaven yesterday, because I am a sadist with poor self-control. They are not ready for this shit. I'm not ready for this shit. But we're gonna do it anyhow. I'll keep y'all posted.

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    ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    Isn't there a dedicated Gloomhaven thread at this point, or did we just talk about doing that for a while? :P

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    AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    Isn't there a dedicated Gloomhaven thread at this point, or did we just talk about doing that for a while? :P

    Nope, there is now. As I anticipated it's gotten pretty quiet but it's not dead.

    kshu0oba7xnr.png

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    KasynKasyn I'm not saying I don't like our chances. She called me the master.Registered User regular
    Oh shit I didn't realize, my bad!

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    CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    Mr. G wrote: »
    Cantido wrote: »
    I'm having a move out sale.

    Well, a combination of moving out and changing tastes. This thread gets first dibs. Shipping prices will vary of course.

    Dark Souls: The Board Game - $30.00. (Its okay if you house rule the shit out of it.)
    Rising Sun, Amazon Retail: $40.00 (I haven't even played this thing)
    Le Havre: $30.00 (Too fiddly for me. Encroaches on why I play Great Western Trail)
    Android Mainframe: $5.00 (Unless FFG digitizes, I'm done with LCGs and Android, and that's not meant to sound hostile to FFG, they rock.)
    Unknown: $25.00 (I'm picky with co-op games.)

    @Cantido I’d take Mainframe, as part of my new neverending dumb quest to get a complete Android set

    @Mr. G I just accidentally mailed your Android to @Auralynx !

    3DS Friendcode 5413-1311-3767
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    AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    @Mr. G rather.

    Let me know where to forward it and I will.

    kshu0oba7xnr.png

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    VyolynceVyolynce Registered User regular
    Auralynx wrote: »
    Isn't there a dedicated Gloomhaven thread at this point, or did we just talk about doing that for a while? :P

    Nope, there is now. As I anticipated it's gotten pretty quiet but it's not dead.

    Hey my group only meets once a week and had to take last week off for work purposes.

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    MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    The wife and I played Now Boarding today. A lot of fun, but I could see it getting super chaotic with 4+ players. Chaotic in a good way though.

    Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
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    Mr. GMr. G Registered User regular
    I'm thinking about trying a new LCG soon, would y'all recommend Arkham Horror or L5R first?

    I'm gonna get both eventually, but I can't decide which I should move to first

    We've been playing a lot of Netrunner and SW Destiny, so maybe Arkham would be better since it's co-op?

    I don't know how complex it is though

    6F32U1X.png
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    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    edited June 2018
    All this Exit talk got me thinking up something crazy: an attempt at a PbF escape game!

    Just put up a thread for The Polar Station. I think this can be done by forum. All visuals will have the correct proportions. There's the code disk but I think I can just confirm everyone's code guesses.

    MrBody on
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    BursarBursar Hee Noooo! PDX areaRegistered User regular

    L5R: If you've fallen into the LCG hole with a different game, you'll get the same experience, just with a different game.
    AH: We had fun with this one, but I can imagine that it may wear thin on repeat play when you learn how the different stories go. It does rely a great deal on randomness (the token draws), and there's very little way to mitigate that. I guess that's modern Lovecraftiness for ya, though: the odds are generally against you, but you have to have hope if you want to get anything done.

    Given the two, I'd recommend Arkham just on the novelty of its playstyle.

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