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[Heroes of the Storm 2.0] "I'm only dooting you because I can't doot myself."

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  • DibbyDibby Let us grieve existence, together Registered User regular
    edited July 2018
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    @Toothy (Waddledoo) and I accidentally queued in on the same team so naturally we wrecked some fukken houseeee

    He got this RIDICULOUS Arreat Crater off on a stealthed Nova who was skulking by the camp he was invading and just tore her the fuck up. It was insane.

    Liking Azmo the more I play him. Black Pool at 20 is... very, very good, I've found. 1-10 is basically set in stone, still messing around with 13s and 16s. I tried Cydaea's Kiss out this game and I think it was pretty good overall. Still trying out Hell Rift as well, that one's pretty brutal with Brutish Vanguard at 13. I actually haven't taken Total Annihilation yet, but mostly because it doesn't change how he plays (it's just a straightforward +damage) and I wanted to try out Hell Rift. I think most people just slam it anyway because it's more dunk damage, I should probably get in the habit of taking it too.

    Anyway, I think at this point the only thing Azmo kinda needs is a bit more health back. He feels really fucking squish with the health nerf and if they just give him a liiil' bit back he'll be pretty well off, I think.

    Dibby on
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    Toothy
  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Game Designer/Stay-at-home Dad Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Sylvannas first pick on Cursed Hollow? You're Trait is literally the objective. SMH.

    Oh, then we get a Hammer? WTF is wrong with people? This isn't QM. You don't just get to play whatever you want and expect to win.

    With that loss my win streak and promo to Silver 2 comes to an end. A game which totally should have been a win (me and Garrosh did work), but EVERYONE COULDN'T STOP FIGHTING 5v2 INSTEAD OF HITTING THE CORE!!

    And I thought my two kids were exhausting.

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  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    Sylvannas first pick on Cursed Hollow? You're Trait is literally the objective. SMH.

    Oh, then we get a Hammer? WTF is wrong with people? This isn't QM. You don't just get to play whatever you want and expect to win.

    With that loss my win streak and promo to Silver 2 comes to an end. A game which totally should have been a win (me and Garrosh did work), but EVERYONE COULDN'T STOP FIGHTING 5v2 INSTEAD OF HITTING THE CORE!!

    And I thought my two kids were exhausting.

    Hammer is good now though! Or at least, she seems to be viable and not garbage like she used to be :(

    Picking Sylv on Cursed always weirds me out though

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  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    They need to rebuild hanzo from the ground up, dude is so busted in hgc still and he’s beyond useless at even master levels of play.

    I am so tired of him.

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    fortyNyht
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Hammer is good now but she still has the same draft considerations. If your team isn't on board and you haven't banned appropriately then it could be painful.

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  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Game Designer/Stay-at-home Dad Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    I caved and bought TLV w/gold. Roster complete!

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    I caved and bought TLV w/gold. Roster complete!

    Welcome to the club.

    Now get them all to Gold Frame!

    Smrtnikforty
  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    One other positive about new heroes is that you'll get some easy chests in return when you level them up since the first levels are easy to fill.

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    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
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  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    i think i hate alterac pass now.

    it's just not a very good map.

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  • The Escape GoatThe Escape Goat Brave Sir Robin Registered User regular
    It's definitely one of those maps where it's like "how did you ever think pubs would figure out how to play this." No, you shouldn't walk up by yourself to try and hard channel it while there are four enemies literally standing there DO YOU NOT HAVE EYES?

    Dibby wrote: »
    yeah but it's a really happenin' wake with chips and punch
    kimeMMMigDonnictonfortyDibby
  • dav3ybdav3yb Registered User regular
    Hey, ARAM brawl! Hey, troll shitbag hovers Malfurion for the entire timer so I go Valla instead of Morales, and he switches at the last second to Sonya. Thanks for leaving us without a support asshole!

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    forty
  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    It’s a map built for pro play. Objectives should force people to fight over a thing, not stare at each other until someone makes a mistake.

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  • finnithfinnith TorontoRegistered User regular
    Knight_ wrote: »
    It’s a map built for pro play. Objectives should force people to fight over a thing, not stare at each other until someone makes a mistake.

    so it's like ds with less skirmishes and mercing?

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  • DibbyDibby Let us grieve existence, together Registered User regular
    finnith wrote: »
    Knight_ wrote: »
    It’s a map built for pro play. Objectives should force people to fight over a thing, not stare at each other until someone makes a mistake.

    so it's like ds with less skirmishes and mercing?

    it's like hanamura.

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  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    dav3yb wrote: »
    Hey, ARAM brawl! Hey, troll shitbag hovers Malfurion for the entire timer so I go Valla instead of Morales, and he switches at the last second to Sonya. Thanks for leaving us without a support asshole!
    Holy hell, cool it with the ARAMs already, Blizzard. 6 of the last 10 brawls have been ARAMs. Hell, Silver City came up last month!

    The best card in Hearthstone is your credit card.
  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    You guys are crazy; Alterac Pass is awesome.

    kimeNyht
  • DibbyDibby Let us grieve existence, together Registered User regular
    milk ducks wrote: »
    You guys are crazy; Alterac Pass is awesome.

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  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    It looks awesome, I love the design. I don’t even hate the objective much anymore. But they should change how you capture it.

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    SmrtnikDibby
  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Knight_ wrote: »
    It looks awesome, I love the design. I don’t even hate the objective much anymore. But they should change how you capture it.

    They should make you have to bring rams/wolves back to your base and then kill rama/wolves near the other base to bring the saddle pelts back. And it should take a couple of IRL days

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  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    What's wrong with it, though? People say it's snow-bally, and I suppose it can be, but draft sufficient wave-clear and, if you lose the first objective, you aren't down 12-8; just kill the wave and the Generals get shredded by your defenses. Hell, draft sufficient wave-clear and a global, and you might not even lose a Fort. Draft a strong early game and you'll almost certainly win the first objective, so if you think it's snow-bally, you can use that to your advantage by picking heroes that have early-game power spikes.

    I honestly don't understand why people don't like certain maps. Like Blackheart's Bay, for example. My constant issue with this game is that players don't understand when and/or how to rotate effectively. Whenever I bring it up, everyone always says, "People just want to fight. That's the big appeal of Hots over other MOBAs like League or Dota. It's a Brawler, people want to brawl." But then you give them a map like Blackheart's Bay, where I can dual-soak the entire top half of the map, and the remaining 4 players on my team can literally just fight the whole game. That's it. You draft a strong 4-man, and you just brawl your ass off the entire match. And people still hate Blackheart's Bay.

    I can't get people to rotate because they just want to brawl.
    Maps where you do nothing but brawl (Blackheart's, Braxis, Haunted Mines, etc) are consistently regarded among the worst in the game.

    So, that makes a lot of sense.

    GroveNyht
  • DibbyDibby Let us grieve existence, together Registered User regular
    edited July 2018
    Knight_ wrote: »
    It looks awesome, I love the design. I don’t even hate the objective much anymore. But they should change how you capture it.

    That's been my number one complaint with the map since day one

    Literally whoever is able to hold a point better wins. Even if you cap the point first, if your team can't hold it, get fukt.

    So what ends up happening is that the team that can muscles their way in, caps it, bullies the enemy team out, they can't do anything. There's no recapping it, there's no capping the enemy obj, nothing.

    Or some permutation of that, anyway. Like maybe both teams play cautiously and stay at theirs instead and, as you said, stare at each other until someone makes a mistake. And then someone does. And then they get to cap the point, and then that first example happens.

    They've toned down the actual objective power now which is great, it feels a lot better to play against. But the actual capping of the objective suuuuuucks so hard. It's so fucking lopsided and there's no way to take it back. Once a team has both, that's it. There needs to be a way to contest beyond just "spam right clicks even though you'll get interrupted".

    Like imagine if Volskaya didn't have the Overtime mechanic. The Overtime mechanic is the ONLY thing that keeps that shit balanced because otherwise it'd just be like Alterac Pass; bully your way in and hold point for however many seconds and you just win regardless. But because it exists, even if one team gets to 99%, you can still get a kill or force the enemy team out and reclaim it and then win it for yourselves. But I think you also can contest the obj progress just by standing on it, right? Or am I wrong about that? So that keeps it balanced too because your team can enter the area and try to pressure in or out and reclaim it.

    The actual objective area on Volskaya is also much bigger than Alterac's, which allows for more posturing and zoning and tactical play. Alterac's is SO small and you basically just clump 5 up and the other team can't really budge in (especially due to the mud pits).

    Dibby on
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  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    Black hearts bay you should never fight if you’re winning. You camp all day, only take fights up talent tiers, snowball it all the way home. It is awful.

    If I wanted to Pve all day I’d play wc3 again.

    Braxis is fine now that they made the other Zerg wave big and made it harder to cap early so you don’t get the near automatic 10-8 second Zerg wave that runs all the way to the core half the time.

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    Dibby
  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    edited July 2018
    Knight_ wrote: »
    Black hearts bay you should never fight if you’re winning. You camp all day, only take fights up talent tiers, snowball it all the way home. It is awful.

    It's not, though. The entire first-half of the match is literally a 4-man brawl, with maybe brief stints where either the entire 4-man or just your merc control player dips out to grab the camps. That's like 10 levels worth of just beating the shit out of the other team and pushing in bottom lane. After that, sure, the map opens up a bit and it's a lot more PvE-centric, but the first half of the match is just constant team vs team brawling. You draft a strong 4-man and just crush.

    The problem I find is that people don't understand what makes a strong 4-man and the whole thing falls apart, not because the strategy is bad, but because the people who want to do nothing but brawl all game surprisingly have no idea how to actually fucking brawl. Then they place all the blame on the 4/1 split strat, or on the map itself, when in reality, it was the draft and the execution that was poor, and we're just making excuses for bad play.

    milk ducks on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited July 2018
    milk ducks wrote: »
    Knight_ wrote: »
    Black hearts bay you should never fight if you’re winning. You camp all day, only take fights up talent tiers, snowball it all the way home. It is awful.

    It's not, though. The entire first-half of the match is literally a 4-man brawl, with maybe brief stints where either the entire 4-man or just your merc control player dips out to grab the camps. That's like 10 levels worth of just beating the shit out of the other team and pushing in bottom lane. After that, sure, the map opens up a bit and it's a lot more PvE-centric, but the first half of the match is just constant team vs team brawling. You draft a strong 4-man and just crush.

    The problem I find is that people don't understand what makes a strong 4-man and the whole thing falls apart, not because the strategy is bad, but because the people who want to do nothing but brawl all game surprisingly have no idea how to actually fucking brawl. Then they place all the blame on the 4/1 split strat, or on the map itself, when in reality, it was the draft and the execution that was poor, and we're just making excuses for bad play.

    Or you just play the objective instead and win. Farm coins, avoid fights you don't need to take, turn in when you can and just snowball.

    The problem with BHB is that the dominant strategy is almost impossible to counter if executed properly. Once you are in the lead, you control the map, the objective and never need to do anything else to win.

    shryke on
  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    Dominant strategies on most maps are almost impossible to counter if they're executed properly, which is why they're dominant strategies. :P

  • DibbyDibby Let us grieve existence, together Registered User regular
    edited July 2018
    milk ducks wrote: »
    I honestly don't understand why people don't like certain maps.

    I mean for the same reason people like or dislike certain Heroes, or like/dislike anything ever

    Because it's subjective.


    Personally I dislike Blackheart's because having the 1 dual soak all game while the 4 literally push bottom all game and then avoid all teamfights and just push and nab coins is super fucking boring. That's not how I want to play the game.

    Braxxis is fine because it's not the same thing as Blackheart's, you're not ignoring the game. The solo lane isn't just "soaksoaksoak ignore everything else", you're still dealing with winning the lane/bullying out the enemy solo laner, as well as having to hold the cap. And you end up rotating people up or down as needed. You're not having 1 person playing an entirely separate game the entire time, you're just making sure that lane is covered by someone who can. And the opposite holds true as well, the four aren't ignoring the rest of the game, holding the objective is super important, you're not ignoring the objective like you do in Haunted Mines for example. As far as I'm concerned, both lanes are the same gameplay, just that the solo lane is on a smaller scale. You're still focusing on the objective and grabbing mercs, all that good stuff.

    You don't ignore the objective in Blackheart's either, but the problem is that the objective is non-interactive. You gather coins as they spawn and turn them in when you can. Sometimes never even running into the enemy team. Sometimes you do, sure, and the enemy team camps the turn-in, but you can just look at that and go "nah, we don't fight here." You can literally opt to just never fight and just keep gathering coins and pushing and playing lame. Just play the map SO HARD that you literally never have to PVP unless it's in your advantage. It's not uncommon to see someone on a team with just a shitload of coins because that's all they've been doing all game and they just turn in when it suits them.

    Moreover, going back to the non-interactive point, all Blackheart's obj does is just fire off siege damage. There's no Boss Monster to defend against, it just happens. Tomb of the Spider Queen is basically Better Blackheart's, because while it does follow the same open-ended objective structure that Blackheart's has, it also has counterplay and ways to defend against it.

    Other maps' objectives force you to fight over them, which is good design. Blackheart's doesn't, not inherently. Teamfights can happen at the turn in, but they also don't need to. Haunted Mines has a similarly flawed setup, you just ignore the actual objective and take every single merc camp and push as hard as you can because the moment people break off into the mines is the moment the other team gains an advantage topside.


    It's cool if you like those maps, but I don't think it's fair to say "Well I like these, why don't you?". Because just as you have your own valid reasons for liking them, other people have equally valid reasons for disliking them.

    Dibby on
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  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    Dibby wrote: »
    It's cool if you like those maps, but I don't think it's fair to say "Well I like these, why don't you?". Because just as you have your own valid reasons for liking them, other people have equally valid reasons for disliking them.

    You're allowed to dislike maps. I never said you weren't. My point was always just, "People refuse to do anything but mindlessly fight, but they hate maps where you mindlessly fight," why?

  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    You really shouldn’t still be pushing with a 4 man post-10. It’s mostly to get the fort early. And it’s not a dominant strategy it’s just a strategy.

    The other team could go 3 man defense, take illidan, win all the camps forever, and snowball that way. Watch old pro bhb to see how shitty that map can be.

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  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Game Designer/Stay-at-home Dad Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    BHB is the map I got 1.5k hero damage with Murky. No one came to the bottom lane ever, so I just constantly stole giants and destroyed the core. :)

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  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    The 4-man push bot strategy is easily countered by the other team pushing top or mid instead. Those lanes are actually more valuable on the map due to the huge amounts of open space and the boss.

    And a lot of people dislike BHB because "the pros" dislike BHB, not for any reasons of their own. I don't mind it most of the time because people play it poorly so it's like any other map/game. But when I run into a team that knows how to play it and my team doesn't it is an inevitable, boring loss. And if I win by just playing the map it is an inevitable, boring win.

    Three things in human life are important: the first is to be kind; the second is to be kind; and the third is to be kind.
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    milk ducks wrote: »
    Dominant strategies on most maps are almost impossible to counter if they're executed properly, which is why they're dominant strategies. :P

    Nah, none are as dominant as PvE is on BHB, since the strategy does not require the dominant team to ever extend even a tiny bit, and BHB's dominant strategy is to literally avoid actually playing the game or engaging the other team. People been complaining about this map for like 2+ years for this exact reason.

  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    "ducks, I thought you didn't play tanks."

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  • The Escape GoatThe Escape Goat Brave Sir Robin Registered User regular
    I'm pretty sure people hated BHB before the pro scene became as visible as it is now.

    Dibby wrote: »
    yeah but it's a really happenin' wake with chips and punch
    Knight_Tim is on the Internet
  • ToothyToothy Registered User regular
    I think once you pay a cannon should come out and someone has to aim/operate it. The enemy team can destroy the cannon the player is operating, but the timer is also it's health bar like Xul's minions. There, now it's more interactive.

    Also, ghost pirates should spawn and start to chase players who don't turn in their gold fast enough.

    Make it a fucking spectacle.

    A Dabble Of Theloniuskime
  • DibbyDibby Let us grieve existence, together Registered User regular
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    I REMAIN STAUNCHLY UNCONVINCED WHEN PEOPLE TELL ME NEW AZMO IS BAD

    holy fuckin' shit he's incredible

    tide of sin dunk+black pool at 20+Wrath AA will chunk someone fuckin' good for like 75% of their health bar

    he is a goddamn teamfight monster now

    laser is goddamn insane

    aoe damage out the ass

    wrath/bombardment are nutty as shit

    black pool at 20 is legit


    ANYWAY SORRY NOT SORRY for another Azmo screen (that's like 3 now innit) BUT HE'S SO GOODDD. I'm constantly topping all three stats. Wrecking face in teamfights and blowing people's healthbars up.

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  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    I wish you would have played him when he was good, lol.

    shrykekimeMNC DoverMMMig
  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    In all seriousness, though, he's fine. His numbers are good. I'm glad people are having fun with him, but I'm not. He just feels like a fundamentally different hero now, and while I totally agree that he needed a rework, I also genuinely enjoyed what he's always been, and I guess I expected some fragment of it to remain after the patch. I want my old Azmo back, man. Failing that, I just want a build option that approximates old Azmo.

    shrykeMMMig
  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    azmodan is pretty broken when there is no support to free heal his poke, yea.

    kinda always was tho.

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  • DibbyDibby Let us grieve existence, together Registered User regular
    edited July 2018
    milk ducks wrote: »
    I wish you would have played him when he was good, lol.

    I did play him back in the day and I really didn't like him that much. He felt wayyy too finnicky to me.

    Also I *really* hated how Black Pool worked, Alt+R was some really awkward bullshit. I like that you can just hit R+Q now, or even just pre-queue the Tide of Sin instead.

    Laser feels infinitely better. That burst damage at the end is brutal. It encourages active Laser use instead of like, never using it before, I guess.


    Anyway though, he is a fundamentally different hero now, yeah. He does require a different approach now. He's much more of an actual in-the-thick-of-it teamfighter instead of hanging back a full screen's length away and bombing people while not actually being there. Short/midrange dunks are life now. He can still wave clear real good, he can still clear with a psuedo-global presence and keep lanes pushed out. Although you need Tide of Sin if you wanna one-shot a wave, otherwise the Archers still have a tiny bit of health left after. Bombardment is a really nice supplement to his waveclear without Tide of Sin though.

    He feels a lot more streamlined and more in line with my own personal playstyle which I like a lot.

    Dibby on
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