The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
edited July 2018
Gluttony is the CDR one, right? It's pretty potent being able to bomb a wave and get the cooldown cut in like half. It's less burst in teamfights but more sustained damage if the fights go long.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Honestly I think it's really telling that Azmodan is seeing a lot more high-level HL play and winning at a decent (and potentially overtuned) clip, but can no longer solo carry clownfiesta games merely by existing and clearing waves for 25 minutes.
Interestingly enough in Plat+ his QM win rate only dropped 2% and still sits at ~52%, but his HL win rate increased from 49% to 51%.
See I actually disagree with that statement. I actually LIKE new Azmodan. I know some people don't but using the generalized statement of "they shat at all it" doesn't seem fair.
Like I enjoyed clearing waves, having a big sack of HP and getting good globes on team fights to still help out. What actually HURT that playstyle was having to wait until level 10 to do it because you needed Black Pool. Now you can start stacking up and do things sooner than 10! Now you can stack up in lane or team fights! Now your Lazy Lazer actually HURTS in a team fight.
Your global presence went down due to D and globe distance, sure, but to me it was an awesome trade off because it helped enable what made Azmo fun for me by doing so earlier in the game and more helpful in a team fight pre 10.
And again, I get some Azmo players won't like it. I do. But let's not assume it was a universal "defecating all over his playstyle".
No, they shit all over his old playstyle. I mean, you can like his new style, sure, but old Azmodan is dead and gone. New Azmodan feels weak and ineffectual in the same role as he used to have. His globe-chucking playstyle just can't compete with his former power. Hence the across the board buffs to it they just dropped.
Then we disagree and that's fine. I mean between the two of us, you're flat out calling someone wrong and I'm saying we have a difference of opinion on what his old playstyle was, but that's also fine I guess.
I saw his old playstyle as someone who cleared waves, threw globes, shot lasers, and sent mercs down lanes. So to me all those things still happen. Others saw it as someone who could win the whole map while never really showing up with his body in a team fight.
I mean maybe my old playstyle with Azmodan was wrong? But like it still existed for me so ... I don't know?
They buffed him across the board and especially his globe. I don't see why they'd do that if he and especially if his globe build was actually performing well.
Later in that Twitter thread, they mention that Whitemane's Spotlight will be shown tomorrow after the first game of HGC EU. Matches start at 9 AM PDT.
I've said this several times in the past, but I want to say it once more that I love how HGC has official things happening every week, and often weekdays for the Open division.
See I actually disagree with that statement. I actually LIKE new Azmodan. I know some people don't but using the generalized statement of "they shat at all it" doesn't seem fair.
Like I enjoyed clearing waves, having a big sack of HP and getting good globes on team fights to still help out. What actually HURT that playstyle was having to wait until level 10 to do it because you needed Black Pool. Now you can start stacking up and do things sooner than 10! Now you can stack up in lane or team fights! Now your Lazy Lazer actually HURTS in a team fight.
Your global presence went down due to D and globe distance, sure, but to me it was an awesome trade off because it helped enable what made Azmo fun for me by doing so earlier in the game and more helpful in a team fight pre 10.
And again, I get some Azmo players won't like it. I do. But let's not assume it was a universal "defecating all over his playstyle".
No, they shit all over his old playstyle. I mean, you can like his new style, sure, but old Azmodan is dead and gone. New Azmodan feels weak and ineffectual in the same role as he used to have. His globe-chucking playstyle just can't compete with his former power. Hence the across the board buffs to it they just dropped.
Then we disagree and that's fine. I mean between the two of us, you're flat out calling someone wrong and I'm saying we have a difference of opinion on what his old playstyle was, but that's also fine I guess.
I saw his old playstyle as someone who cleared waves, threw globes, shot lasers, and sent mercs down lanes. So to me all those things still happen. Others saw it as someone who could win the whole map while never really showing up with his body in a team fight.
I mean maybe my old playstyle with Azmodan was wrong? But like it still existed for me so ... I don't know?
They buffed him across the board and especially his globe. I don't see why they'd do that if he and especially if his globe build was actually performing well.
I'm of the opinion that his buff was unnecessary. I'm pretty sure he's going to see some nerfs in the next balance patch.
Also, you are saying two different things: 1) Azmodan's playstyle was completely changed, 2) he now sucks balls.
Nhyt was very clearly responding to the first point. For some reason you keep misinterpreting his response as a disagreement with Azmodan's power level.
Which, by the way, you're wrong about. He no longer easily wins QM clownfiesta games by virtue of merely existing. But he actually wins more drafted games with a significantly higher pick rate.
I think smoothing his power curve (which they did do with higher Q baseline but lower scaling, counteracted by the baseline quest) was a smart decision.
Just all the other nonsense was maybe less than great and a bit reactionary.
See I actually disagree with that statement. I actually LIKE new Azmodan. I know some people don't but using the generalized statement of "they shat at all it" doesn't seem fair.
Like I enjoyed clearing waves, having a big sack of HP and getting good globes on team fights to still help out. What actually HURT that playstyle was having to wait until level 10 to do it because you needed Black Pool. Now you can start stacking up and do things sooner than 10! Now you can stack up in lane or team fights! Now your Lazy Lazer actually HURTS in a team fight.
Your global presence went down due to D and globe distance, sure, but to me it was an awesome trade off because it helped enable what made Azmo fun for me by doing so earlier in the game and more helpful in a team fight pre 10.
And again, I get some Azmo players won't like it. I do. But let's not assume it was a universal "defecating all over his playstyle".
No, they shit all over his old playstyle. I mean, you can like his new style, sure, but old Azmodan is dead and gone. New Azmodan feels weak and ineffectual in the same role as he used to have. His globe-chucking playstyle just can't compete with his former power. Hence the across the board buffs to it they just dropped.
Then we disagree and that's fine. I mean between the two of us, you're flat out calling someone wrong and I'm saying we have a difference of opinion on what his old playstyle was, but that's also fine I guess.
I saw his old playstyle as someone who cleared waves, threw globes, shot lasers, and sent mercs down lanes. So to me all those things still happen. Others saw it as someone who could win the whole map while never really showing up with his body in a team fight.
I mean maybe my old playstyle with Azmodan was wrong? But like it still existed for me so ... I don't know?
They buffed him across the board and especially his globe. I don't see why they'd do that if he and especially if his globe build was actually performing well.
I'm of the opinion that his buff was unnecessary. I'm pretty sure he's going to see some nerfs in the next balance patch.
Also, you are saying two different things: 1) Azmodan's playstyle was completely changed, 2) he now sucks balls.
Nhyt was very clearly responding to the first point. For some reason you keep misinterpreting his response as a disagreement with Azmodan's power level.
Which, by the way, you're wrong about. He no longer easily wins QM clownfiesta games by virtue of merely existing. But he actually wins more drafted games with a significantly higher pick rate.
Except he got buffed, so the data is showing something else. And not in some sort of "raise lower one skill level vs another" kind of way but just flat buffs. And maybe they overbuffed him but the very obvious direction of his changes in the balance patch suggest their data says "he's not good enough".
And for the other argument, well, you contradict that one yourself here. If they didn't change his playstyle then he wouldn't suddenly not be "easily win[ning] QM clownfiesta games by virtue of merely existing" and instead "actually win[ning] more drafted games".
I mean, pre-buff he was sitting around 51% winrate with one of the highest popularities in the game. That indicates pretty fairly balanced and possibly slightly overtuned already.
It's a pretty puzzling change.
I am very excited to see whitemane's kit. As someone who played a priest for all of vanilla, I'm curious to see where they're going to take her.
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AuralynxDarkness is a perspectiveWatching the ego workRegistered Userregular
I mean, pre-buff he was sitting around 51% winrate with one of the highest popularities in the game. That indicates pretty fairly balanced and possibly slightly overtuned already.
It's a pretty puzzling change.
I am very excited to see whitemane's kit. As someone who played a priest for all of vanilla, I'm curious to see where they're going to take her.
Blatant Dreadlord partisanship aside, I too am curious what she'll have for skills. I think there's a decent chance of some kind of support / specialist hybrid going on given the visual emphasis on the rest of the Crusade in the teaser, or at least a kit with buffs.
i wouldn't be surprised if they just made a kit based on the current Discipline priest in wow
while that'd be cool, i worry that it ends up putting her in some sort of semi-support bucket with tyrande and tassadar, and that's not a good bucket to be in.
maybe it'd be like malfurion where the damage is relatively insignificant but you gotta hit to heal. though if it just auto-healed it'd be like malfurion crossed with li li, which is sort of the worst of both worlds.
i wouldn't be surprised if they just made a kit based on the current Discipline priest in wow
I've been told the BFA changes to Disc priest are fantastic, but I've been too busy being a crazed demon spamming madman on my Demo 'lock to try it out.
I mean, pre-buff he was sitting around 51% winrate with one of the highest popularities in the game. That indicates pretty fairly balanced and possibly slightly overtuned already.
It's a pretty puzzling change.
I am very excited to see whitemane's kit. As someone who played a priest for all of vanilla, I'm curious to see where they're going to take her.
i wouldn't be surprised if they just made a kit based on the current Discipline priest in wow
while that'd be cool, i worry that it ends up putting her in some sort of semi-support bucket with tyrande and tassadar, and that's not a good bucket to be in.
maybe it'd be like malfurion where the damage is relatively insignificant but you gotta hit to heal. though if it just auto-healed it'd be like malfurion crossed with li li, which is sort of the worst of both worlds.
Eh it doesn't have to be the worst. It can be awesome!
THE BELOW IS ALL THEORY AND NOT REAL
Power Word Shield, Shadow Word Pain, and Penance. Her passive is atonement, and anyone who has PWS on them gets atonement for ... 15 seconds?
Any damage done by Whitemane heals for that amount. So you want to be dotting heroes and minions with SWP for a hot while Penance heals directly if used on a hero (for more) OR just heals for whatever damage it does to a target (becoming an AOE heal with multiple attonements ). PWS itself would shield the target for either a set amount OR like 15% of their maximum health?
I mean it absolutely does mimic Malfurion a little in the case of damage = heals but for Lady Whitemane, she gets to decide to single target or AOE heal depending on what she does. Plus his healing is based on skillshots and a heal over time even if you don't hit with Moonfire (paltry as it is) while hers would be dots and choices. Her waveclear will probably be hard garbage unless Penance does some aoe damage per pulse
Also please let you cast Penance while moving. I like this change in WoW.
no one's allowed to talk about stats because the best stat tracking tool we have might be wrong!!!!
Ok. I mean, you can talk about stats, sure. I don't mind hotslogs as a source within reason and never said any different.
But we also know Blizzard has extensive 100% accurate stats. And we know how Blizzard reacted to Azmodan's performance post-rework.
If their actions contradict what the (potentially inaccurate) stats we have say, then the most likely explanation is that the stats we have are wrong. It's certainly better then throwing a tantrum or whatever this is.
no one's allowed to talk about stats because the best stat tracking tool we have might be wrong!!!!
Ok. I mean, you can talk about stats, sure. I don't mind hotslogs as a source within reason and never said any different.
But we also know Blizzard has extensive 100% accurate stats. And we know how Blizzard reacted to Azmodan's performance post-rework.
If their actions contradict what the (potentially inaccurate) stats we have say, then the most likely explanation is that the stats we have are wrong. It's certainly better then throwing a tantrum or whatever this is.
They could also just be bad at balancing.
(Also, everyone else is exasperated because it feels like you've been arguing in bad faith for the past page.)
no one's allowed to talk about stats because the best stat tracking tool we have might be wrong!!!!
Ok. I mean, you can talk about stats, sure. I don't mind hotslogs as a source within reason and never said any different.
But we also know Blizzard has extensive 100% accurate stats. And we know how Blizzard reacted to Azmodan's performance post-rework.
If their actions contradict what the (potentially inaccurate) stats we have say, then the most likely explanation is that the stats we have are wrong. It's certainly better then throwing a tantrum or whatever this is.
They could also just be bad at balancing.
(Also, everyone else is exasperated because it feels like you've been arguing in bad faith for the past page.)
There's bad at balancing and then there's like innumeracy. Yeah, maybe these were the wrong buffs or too much or too little or whatever. It's happened before and it'll happen again. They can be bad at balancing. But unless they are completely inept at reading their own stats, not at balancing the game but at just looking at a number and seeing if it went up or down, how they are trying to balance (no matter how incompetently) should be a good indication of what they see going on in Azmodan's winrate. And the direction of buffs is fairly clear. They buffed his early game but left his late game alone and they basically across the board buffed his a bunch of talents that weren't his new AA build (which they actually ever so slightly nerfed). Which suggests that their data showed his early game was weak and everything that isn't his AA build is underperforming. And that if hotslogs is showing something different, the most obvious answer is that hotslogs data is wrong.
And I've done nothing like argue in bad faith so I've no clue wtf that is about.
We also don't know that Blizzard has 100% accurate stats, actually. Nor do we know that they are necessarily interpreting them correctly.
AFAIK they've said they've got big spreadsheets tracking all sorts of shit. And given they run the servers and can directly pull the data, their data is as close to accurate as is achievable. Or should be baring some sort of insane level of incompetence.
Whether they are reading it properly is always a question but you'd have to be really fucking something up to misinterpret stats so completely that you are buffing a hero that already has a good winrate. This doesn't look like nitty-gritty stuff.
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
Whether they are reading it properly is always a question but you'd have to be really fucking something up to misinterpret stats so completely that you are buffing a hero that already has a good winrate. This doesn't look like nitty-gritty stuff.
We also don't know that Blizzard has 100% accurate stats, actually. Nor do we know that they are necessarily interpreting them correctly.
AFAIK they've said they've got big spreadsheets tracking all sorts of shit. And given they run the servers and can directly pull the data, their data is as close to accurate as is achievable. Or should be baring some sort of insane level of incompetence.
Whether they are reading it properly is always a question but you'd have to be really fucking something up to misinterpret stats so completely that you are buffing a hero that already has a good winrate. This doesn't look like nitty-gritty stuff.
I mean like, they literally could be not saving the data in a queryable manner even if the games are run on their servers.
I seriously doubt that, but I've seen lots of teams/companies not collect obvious metrics, so *shrug*
Whether they are reading it properly is always a question but you'd have to be really fucking something up to misinterpret stats so completely that you are buffing a hero that already has a good winrate. This doesn't look like nitty-gritty stuff.
They do that constantly, though.
To buff underperforming pieces of their kit, yes. So if they are buffing these portions of his kit, that still suggests they are underperforming. And some of those portions are things like "his base abilities".
I never played a lot of Azmo, but played against him quite a bit. It was never fun at all, either in QM or HL, do go against him. All he did was split push all game and occasionally sacrifice himself to drop his Ult on a Keep while perma-lasering it. Never felt good. Maybe it was fun for the Azmo player or something.
Not to shit all over Azmo though. You can get the same experience with Zag, Murky, and Gaz.
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I never played a lot of Azmo, but played against him quite a bit. It was never fun at all, either in QM or HL, do go against him. All he did was split push all game and occasionally sacrifice himself to drop his Ult on a Keep while perma-lasering it. Never felt good. Maybe it was fun for the Azmo player or something.
Not to shit all over Azmo though. You can get the same experience with Zag, Murky, and Gaz.
Dover, come over to the specialist side.
No more need to worry over Silver allies who constantly feed, or have no clue what "soak" means.
Come to the dark side of not playing their game, playing your own game, and winning anyways.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
I'm still a big proponent of just killing the other team over and over again to get out of Silver/Gold instead of worrying about the draft or macro.
I'm still a big proponent of just killing the other team over and over again to get out of Silver/Gold instead of worrying about the draft or macro.
But how?
Play a bunch of StarCraft then come back and play Greymane and tear them apart with your far superior micro.
Play a bunch of Starcraft then come back and play The Lost Vikings and tear them apart with your far superior micro and macro.
The problem with that is that if you don't personally kill everyone on the enemy team that means your teammates are still liable to die randomly.
I can't speak to that low but when I was grinding up TLV levels I was, I don't know, plat or something I think and the xp advantage was doing so much work it didn't matter how stupid they were we'd still in aggregate come out on top.
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Interestingly enough in Plat+ his QM win rate only dropped 2% and still sits at ~52%, but his HL win rate increased from 49% to 51%.
They buffed him across the board and especially his globe. I don't see why they'd do that if he and especially if his globe build was actually performing well.
I've said this several times in the past, but I want to say it once more that I love how HGC has official things happening every week, and often weekdays for the Open division.
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I'm of the opinion that his buff was unnecessary. I'm pretty sure he's going to see some nerfs in the next balance patch.
Also, you are saying two different things: 1) Azmodan's playstyle was completely changed, 2) he now sucks balls.
Nhyt was very clearly responding to the first point. For some reason you keep misinterpreting his response as a disagreement with Azmodan's power level.
Which, by the way, you're wrong about. He no longer easily wins QM clownfiesta games by virtue of merely existing. But he actually wins more drafted games with a significantly higher pick rate.
Not Balnazzar.
Blizz pls.
Just all the other nonsense was maybe less than great and a bit reactionary.
Except he got buffed, so the data is showing something else. And not in some sort of "raise lower one skill level vs another" kind of way but just flat buffs. And maybe they overbuffed him but the very obvious direction of his changes in the balance patch suggest their data says "he's not good enough".
And for the other argument, well, you contradict that one yourself here. If they didn't change his playstyle then he wouldn't suddenly not be "easily win[ning] QM clownfiesta games by virtue of merely existing" and instead "actually win[ning] more drafted games".
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
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It's a pretty puzzling change.
I am very excited to see whitemane's kit. As someone who played a priest for all of vanilla, I'm curious to see where they're going to take her.
Blatant Dreadlord partisanship aside, I too am curious what she'll have for skills. I think there's a decent chance of some kind of support / specialist hybrid going on given the visual emphasis on the rest of the Crusade in the teaser, or at least a kit with buffs.
while that'd be cool, i worry that it ends up putting her in some sort of semi-support bucket with tyrande and tassadar, and that's not a good bucket to be in.
maybe it'd be like malfurion where the damage is relatively insignificant but you gotta hit to heal. though if it just auto-healed it'd be like malfurion crossed with li li, which is sort of the worst of both worlds.
I've been told the BFA changes to Disc priest are fantastic, but I've been too busy being a crazed demon spamming madman on my Demo 'lock to try it out.
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Unless that data is wrong.
Eh it doesn't have to be the worst. It can be awesome!
THE BELOW IS ALL THEORY AND NOT REAL
Power Word Shield, Shadow Word Pain, and Penance. Her passive is atonement, and anyone who has PWS on them gets atonement for ... 15 seconds?
Any damage done by Whitemane heals for that amount. So you want to be dotting heroes and minions with SWP for a hot while Penance heals directly if used on a hero (for more) OR just heals for whatever damage it does to a target (becoming an AOE heal with multiple attonements ). PWS itself would shield the target for either a set amount OR like 15% of their maximum health?
I mean it absolutely does mimic Malfurion a little in the case of damage = heals but for Lady Whitemane, she gets to decide to single target or AOE heal depending on what she does. Plus his healing is based on skillshots and a heal over time even if you don't hit with Moonfire (paltry as it is) while hers would be dots and choices. Her waveclear will probably be hard garbage unless Penance does some aoe damage per pulse
Also please let you cast Penance while moving. I like this change in WoW.
Ok. I mean, you can talk about stats, sure. I don't mind hotslogs as a source within reason and never said any different.
But we also know Blizzard has extensive 100% accurate stats. And we know how Blizzard reacted to Azmodan's performance post-rework.
If their actions contradict what the (potentially inaccurate) stats we have say, then the most likely explanation is that the stats we have are wrong. It's certainly better then throwing a tantrum or whatever this is.
waaaaah! i don't have my bottle! i'm a tiny baby! give me my milk!!!
They could also just be bad at balancing.
(Also, everyone else is exasperated because it feels like you've been arguing in bad faith for the past page.)
There's bad at balancing and then there's like innumeracy. Yeah, maybe these were the wrong buffs or too much or too little or whatever. It's happened before and it'll happen again. They can be bad at balancing. But unless they are completely inept at reading their own stats, not at balancing the game but at just looking at a number and seeing if it went up or down, how they are trying to balance (no matter how incompetently) should be a good indication of what they see going on in Azmodan's winrate. And the direction of buffs is fairly clear. They buffed his early game but left his late game alone and they basically across the board buffed his a bunch of talents that weren't his new AA build (which they actually ever so slightly nerfed). Which suggests that their data showed his early game was weak and everything that isn't his AA build is underperforming. And that if hotslogs is showing something different, the most obvious answer is that hotslogs data is wrong.
And I've done nothing like argue in bad faith so I've no clue wtf that is about.
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AFAIK they've said they've got big spreadsheets tracking all sorts of shit. And given they run the servers and can directly pull the data, their data is as close to accurate as is achievable. Or should be baring some sort of insane level of incompetence.
Whether they are reading it properly is always a question but you'd have to be really fucking something up to misinterpret stats so completely that you are buffing a hero that already has a good winrate. This doesn't look like nitty-gritty stuff.
They do that constantly, though.
I mean like, they literally could be not saving the data in a queryable manner even if the games are run on their servers.
I seriously doubt that, but I've seen lots of teams/companies not collect obvious metrics, so *shrug*
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To buff underperforming pieces of their kit, yes. So if they are buffing these portions of his kit, that still suggests they are underperforming. And some of those portions are things like "his base abilities".
Not to shit all over Azmo though. You can get the same experience with Zag, Murky, and Gaz.
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Dover, come over to the specialist side.
No more need to worry over Silver allies who constantly feed, or have no clue what "soak" means.
Come to the dark side of not playing their game, playing your own game, and winning anyways.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
But how?
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Play a bunch of StarCraft then come back and play Greymane and tear them apart with your far superior micro.
Play a bunch of Starcraft then come back and play The Lost Vikings and tear them apart with your far superior micro and macro.
The problem with that is that if you don't personally kill everyone on the enemy team that means your teammates are still liable to die randomly.
I can't speak to that low but when I was grinding up TLV levels I was, I don't know, plat or something I think and the xp advantage was doing so much work it didn't matter how stupid they were we'd still in aggregate come out on top.