Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
As much as that set of circumstances sucks, it did also establish that the show was willing to take the story in a pretty sideways direction with little or no warning. For the remainder of the series, you can never be sure that plot armor is going to protect any character, no matter how significant.
I'm rewatching Babylon 5 with my wife and we're midway through Season 1, and it amazes me at how well the show parallels issues of the mid 90's and how well those parallel what is happening today. Problems with fascist leadership, labor unions having no power, etc.
I'm rewatching Babylon 5 with my wife and we're midway through Season 1, and it amazes me at how well the show parallels issues of the mid 90's and how well those parallel what is happening today. Problems with fascist leadership, labor unions having no power, etc.
I ran into the same thing with Won't You Be My Neighbor? The kinds of issues that Mr. Rogers presented on his children's show (war, death, racism, etc.) never really go away.
Black-gloved law enforcers who have quite a lot of power in the name of national security (but are really just out to empower their own little clique) are also kind of troubling.
Black-gloved law enforcers who have quite a lot of power in the name of national security (but are really just out to empower their own little clique) are also kind of troubling.
I think the PsiCorps is one of JMS's best inventions because it really feels real and brutally honest in a way few other things in sci-fi or fantasy do. You look at the organization and think "Yeah, that's exactly what we would do to them and that's exactly how it would turn out".
I'm rewatching Babylon 5 with my wife and we're midway through Season 1, and it amazes me at how well the show parallels issues of the mid 90's and how well those parallel what is happening today. Problems with fascist leadership, labor unions having no power, etc.
I'm rewatching Babylon 5 with my wife and we're midway through Season 1, and it amazes me at how well the show parallels issues of the mid 90's and how well those parallel what is happening today. Problems with fascist leadership, labor unions having no power, etc.
Black-gloved law enforcers who have quite a lot of power in the name of national security (but are really just out to empower their own little clique) are also kind of troubling.
I think the PsiCorps is one of JMS's best inventions because it really feels real and brutally honest in a way few other things in sci-fi or fantasy do. You look at the organization and think "Yeah, that's exactly what we would do to them and that's exactly how it would turn out".
Just hit the Byron section of season 5. I was all like, "these guys are crazy it wasn't that bad." Since through about episode 5 or 6 its more background and other cool stuff is happening. Looked ahead, literally 5 episodes in a row about byron right after the penn and teller episode. uggg.
grumblethorn on
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BlackDragon480Bluster KerfuffleMaster of Windy ImportRegistered Userregular
Black-gloved law enforcers who have quite a lot of power in the name of national security (but are really just out to empower their own little clique) are also kind of troubling.
I think the PsiCorps is one of JMS's best inventions because it really feels real and brutally honest in a way few other things in sci-fi or fantasy do. You look at the organization and think "Yeah, that's exactly what we would do to them and that's exactly how it would turn out".
No matter where you go...there you are. ~ Buckaroo Banzai
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MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
edited August 2018
Also, this is ~very specific~, but in case you remember "By All Means Necessary" from Season 1
It's the strikebreaking one, where they spend the entire episode threatening to invoke THE RUSH ACT. Oh no, if you don't call off the strike, they might invoke THE RUSH ACT? Congress would never approve use of THE RUSH ACT, not after what happened on Europa! Wait--o no are they gonna do it, are they gonna use THE RUSH ACT?
And then Sinclair pulls a fast one and uses his RUSH ACT authority not to break up the strike with goons, but instead reallocate funds to meet demands. Everybody claps.
Anyway, me and MrMrMister now periodically threaten each other with THE RUSH ACT. "If I'm late to work I'm afraid my boss is gonna INVOKE THE RUSH ACT." "You ate the last candy? Don't make me INVOKE THE RUSH ACT." etc etc
They played Rebo and Zooty, a comedy duo who are actually mentioned a couple times but only appeared in Season 5, Day of the Dead specifically.
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
edited August 2018
The best thing with Rebo and Zooty was that (IIRC) their comedy was extremely specific and based on injokes and gags the audience wasn't told about. So it seems like nonsense to us but had the characters in stitches.
The best thing about with Rebo and Zooty was that (IIRC) their comedy was extremely specific and based on injokes and gags the audience wasn't told about. So it seems like nonsense to us but had the characters in stitches.
It was a smarter play then trying to make them actually funny.
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ShadowfireVermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered Userregular
The best thing about with Rebo and Zooty was that (IIRC) their comedy was extremely specific and based on injokes and gags the audience wasn't told about. So it seems like nonsense to us but had the characters in stitches.
It was a smarter play then trying to make them actually funny.
Londo's hatred of them, and Sheridan's disbelief at said hatred, was the best part of Rebo and Zooty.
The best thing about with Rebo and Zooty was that (IIRC) their comedy was extremely specific and based on injokes and gags the audience wasn't told about. So it seems like nonsense to us but had the characters in stitches.
It was a smarter play then trying to make them actually funny.
Londo's hatred of them, and Sheridan's disbelief at said hatred, was the best part of Rebo and Zooty.
That was a good way to play it. Make it confusing if they are funny or not.
It's not that it's confusing, it's that you are literally never gonna win at the game of writing the universe's funniest comedy duo. Trying to do it straight is just gonna lead to failure. So instead you have almost everyone think they are funny but never try and really show or explain the jokes and play with the audience not actually getting the humour at all.
That was a good way to play it. Make it confusing if they are funny or not.
It's not that it's confusing, it's that you are literally never gonna win at the game of writing the universe's funniest comedy duo. Trying to do it straight is just gonna lead to failure. So instead you have almost everyone think they are funny but never try and really show or explain the jokes and play with the audience not actually getting the humour at all.
Much like Morn on DS9. If he had ever actually told the joke he knew, it would have destroyed the joke.
Black-gloved law enforcers who have quite a lot of power in the name of national security (but are really just out to empower their own little clique) are also kind of troubling.
I think the PsiCorps is one of JMS's best inventions because it really feels real and brutally honest in a way few other things in sci-fi or fantasy do. You look at the organization and think "Yeah, that's exactly what we would do to them and that's exactly how it would turn out".
The Shadows' sales pitch to get Sheridan to flip was really weak how could they think that could have possibly worked
I haven't seen that episode in a while but from what I remember they were expected his wife to do most of the heavy lifting.
Yeah, the entire play here is to use his wife to lure him into the fold. And they think it's worked too because he goes back with them. They don't realise what he's actually planning when he does that.
The Shadows' sales pitch to get Sheridan to flip was really weak how could they think that could have possibly worked
I haven't seen that episode in a while but from what I remember they were expected his wife to do most of the heavy lifting.
Yeah, the entire play here is to use his wife to lure him into the fold. And they think it's worked too because he goes back with them. They don't realise what he's actually planning when he does that.
Well she is absolutely there to get him to go, but is steadfast in refusing to actually explain anything until they get there. It was a good plan to get him there, it's just the follow up that was weak.
"No no, you see John, you don't need to fight us in order to stop us from killing everyone, we just want to kill everyone and make everyone to kill each other it makes sense when you open you eyes!"
The Shadows' sales pitch to get Sheridan to flip was really weak how could they think that could have possibly worked
I haven't seen that episode in a while but from what I remember they were expected his wife to do most of the heavy lifting.
Yeah, the entire play here is to use his wife to lure him into the fold. And they think it's worked too because he goes back with them. They don't realise what he's actually planning when he does that.
Well she is absolutely there to get him to go, but is steadfast in refusing to actually explain anything until they get there. It was a good plan to get him there, it's just the follow up that was weak.
"No no, you see John, you don't need to fight us in order to stop us from killing everyone, we just want to kill everyone and make everyone to kill each other it makes sense when you open you eyes!"
I mean, they are crazy people too. A big point of this whole thing is that the Shadow War is a pissing contest behind 2 extremist ideological factions. They believe their case is a lot more compelling then it actually is.
The other thing, is once he was in their power on Zha'dum, it wasn't like they were going to take no for an answer. They hadn't anticipated him planning a suicide mission. I think one of the books also addresses the possible plot hole of why the Shadows didn't shoot down the White Star when it started its suicide run.
The other thing, is once he was in their power on Zha'dum, it wasn't like they were going to take no for an answer. They hadn't anticipated him planning a suicide mission. I think one of the books also addresses the possible plot hole of why the Shadows didn't shoot down the White Star when it started its suicide run.
Yes, one of them does unnecessarily do that.
But yes, the end of the scene is very clear that if he didn't agree, they were going to make him by shoving him inside a shadow ship.
Once you've been inside of one of those ships for a while, you're never quite whole again. But you do as you're told.
They even bring in the shadows to grab him to do that.
To clarify, I'm not even nitpicking or criticizing really, just found myself surprised at how weak the sales pitch was in relation to a slightly more "grey" version of the Vorlon/Shadow conflict I was vaguely and without detail remembering.
I might also be applying the memory of an impending "the Vorlons actually suck too" development which I haven't gotten to yet in my re-watch.
I feel like Babylon 5 is pretty clear that the Vorlons aren't good people. They:
1) Murder anyone that comes into their territory.
2) Act under a guise of mystery so you can't see their intentions.
3) Genetically manipulate races.
4) Set themselves up as literal god figures.
5) Lie in pursuit of their goals.
6) Kidnap key historic figures.
7) Use telepaths as agents and spies.
Ultimately, the thing the Vorlons ignore is that peace isn't permanent. If they guide the development of other races, it will reach a critical point where a war of resources will occur. At that point, the Shadow ideology will take over. And the Vorlons have never been successful, because if they truly were, then some new race would have grown enough in the past million years to have challenged them.
I feel like Babylon 5 is pretty clear that the Vorlons aren't good people. They:
1) Murder anyone that comes into their territory.
2) Act under a guise of mystery so you can't see their intentions.
3) Genetically manipulate races.
4) Set themselves up as literal god figures.
5) Lie in pursuit of their goals.
6) Kidnap key historic figures.
7) Use telepaths as agents and spies.
Ultimately, the thing the Vorlons ignore is that peace isn't permanent. If they guide the development of other races, it will reach a critical point where a war of resources will occur. At that point, the Shadow ideology will take over. And the Vorlons have never been successful, because if they truly were, then some new race would have grown enough in the past million years to have challenged them.
I'd argue that the show demonstrates that the Vorlons are Wrong and the Shadows are Bad. The Vorlons think we need their guidance, but it doesn't really help, because the cost of that is the Shadows continually trying to corrupt us and control everything.
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I ran into the same thing with Won't You Be My Neighbor? The kinds of issues that Mr. Rogers presented on his children's show (war, death, racism, etc.) never really go away.
Black-gloved law enforcers who have quite a lot of power in the name of national security (but are really just out to empower their own little clique) are also kind of troubling.
I think the PsiCorps is one of JMS's best inventions because it really feels real and brutally honest in a way few other things in sci-fi or fantasy do. You look at the organization and think "Yeah, that's exactly what we would do to them and that's exactly how it would turn out".
Not a lot of sci-fi endeavors pull of that line so well. Especially not on TV.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
I knew you were going to say that.
Season 2, but
The Corps is mother. The Corps is father.
~ Buckaroo Banzai
And then Sinclair pulls a fast one and uses his RUSH ACT authority not to break up the strike with goons, but instead reallocate funds to meet demands. Everybody claps.
Anyway, me and MrMrMister now periodically threaten each other with THE RUSH ACT. "If I'm late to work I'm afraid my boss is gonna INVOKE THE RUSH ACT." "You ate the last candy? Don't make me INVOKE THE RUSH ACT." etc etc
Yes.
They played Rebo and Zooty, a comedy duo who are actually mentioned a couple times but only appeared in Season 5, Day of the Dead specifically.
It was a smarter play then trying to make them actually funny.
Londo's hatred of them, and Sheridan's disbelief at said hatred, was the best part of Rebo and Zooty.
"I am fish."
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
It's not that it's confusing, it's that you are literally never gonna win at the game of writing the universe's funniest comedy duo. Trying to do it straight is just gonna lead to failure. So instead you have almost everyone think they are funny but never try and really show or explain the jokes and play with the audience not actually getting the humour at all.
Much like Morn on DS9. If he had ever actually told the joke he knew, it would have destroyed the joke.
The Shadows' sales pitch to get Sheridan to flip was really weak how could they think that could have possibly worked
I haven't seen that episode in a while but from what I remember they were expected his wife to do most of the heavy lifting.
From the still he kind looks like that Kazoo kid.
Yeah, the entire play here is to use his wife to lure him into the fold. And they think it's worked too because he goes back with them. They don't realise what he's actually planning when he does that.
Well she is absolutely there to get him to go, but is steadfast in refusing to actually explain anything until they get there. It was a good plan to get him there, it's just the follow up that was weak.
"No no, you see John, you don't need to fight us in order to stop us from killing everyone, we just want to kill everyone and make everyone to kill each other it makes sense when you open you eyes!"
I mean, they are crazy people too. A big point of this whole thing is that the Shadow War is a pissing contest behind 2 extremist ideological factions. They believe their case is a lot more compelling then it actually is.
Carry on, thread.
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Yes, one of them does unnecessarily do that.
But yes, the end of the scene is very clear that if he didn't agree, they were going to make him by shoving him inside a shadow ship. They even bring in the shadows to grab him to do that.
I might also be applying the memory of an impending "the Vorlons actually suck too" development which I haven't gotten to yet in my re-watch.
1) Murder anyone that comes into their territory.
2) Act under a guise of mystery so you can't see their intentions.
3) Genetically manipulate races.
4) Set themselves up as literal god figures.
5) Lie in pursuit of their goals.
6) Kidnap key historic figures.
7) Use telepaths as agents and spies.
Ultimately, the thing the Vorlons ignore is that peace isn't permanent. If they guide the development of other races, it will reach a critical point where a war of resources will occur. At that point, the Shadow ideology will take over. And the Vorlons have never been successful, because if they truly were, then some new race would have grown enough in the past million years to have challenged them.
I'd argue that the show demonstrates that the Vorlons are Wrong and the Shadows are Bad. The Vorlons think we need their guidance, but it doesn't really help, because the cost of that is the Shadows continually trying to corrupt us and control everything.