WoW has never had player choice or player agency in the story before. WoW has always been an on-rails story since the beginning.
But this is also the first time where that matters. Players have always "gone along with it" because whether they were playing Alliance or Horde, they were the good guys. The Horde were noble savages who aren't evil, just green and scary looking, but actually have hearts of gold. And the Alliance are the classic "good guys" that are generally portrayed in every fantasy setting ever.
BfA changes that. Now they are forcing Horde players to take evil actions whether they agree with it or not. There's no such thing as protesting. If you want to see the story and level up and access the new expansion content, you have to go along with it. You have to take those evil actions and be totally complicit whether you like it or not. There is no other option.
And that's the real problem here. Until now it hasn't mattered that this is an on-rails story. But now it matters. I want to be able to put my foot down and say "NO" and tell Sylvanas to go fuck herself. But they're not letting me.
Most of the Horde story lines in MoP boiled down to "how much of a shitbird can I be". Its not new.
Does make you wonder. Horde has always battled to win largely regardless of morality. From classic to now the "Noble Savage" has been a party line that died a few feet out of orgrimmar/thunder bluff.
I guess I just don't see the moral difference between blight and mage fire. Both kill you just as horrifically. And both sides field death knights...so raising the freshly dead is par for the course.
As a death knight these tactics are just mine. On a larger scale. I'd also be interested to see just how many horde players picked the "Mask AND blight gun option" almost all the ones in my raid did.
The blight leaves the area uninhabitable. Its chemical warfare.
Like, if Sylvanas deployed the blight in Mulgore or Durotar and turned it into a dead uninhabitable wasteland that would be an issue.
Burning things doesn't have that problem. Everything grows back.
How does Jaina get rid of it then?
She doesn't get rid of it, she just freezes it out of the air so the Alliance can advance.
If you go back to the area afterwards everything is still covered in the blight.
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Guys, I just did the Horde-side Lordraeron scenario and... Sylvanas seemed perfectly fine? I take some issue with the scenario but...
Everything Sylvanas did seemed fine? They have troops that can especially withstand blight, so it makes a lot of sense to use it to me. Plus apparently we had gas masks and shit. It seemed like we were fully prepared for this shit. Anduin said that it's killing the Horde troops, but I'm not sure that actually happened? Seemed like we had masks on and maybe he didn't realise it.
Saurfang calling it honorless does not make much sense to me. Burning Teldrassil, sure, but this just seems to be using a weapon. How different is using blight versus using some giant fucking fireball or blizzard? Does he just want combat to be purely hitting other people in the face? That doesn't seem to jive at all with WoW at all. We're always hitting shit in the back. That's where melee DPS is supposed to be!
The writing was, as usually, completely Alliance-biased I thought. All the Alliance leaders had their crazy powerful moments, while Baine and Saurfang and everybody else on the Horde are just running for their lives. Jaina and Alleria get some bullshit deus ex moments, rescuing an Alliance force that seemed to be just going in largely without any plan at all, while the Horde seemed to have plans upon plans upon plans? Kinda ridiculous imo.
I guess I'll watch the Alliance side in cutscenes and see what's what from the other perspective, but boy that seemed like some awfully one-sided writing there. Overall a good scenario, but my response to it is the opposite of what seemed to be intended.
Except for the part where she literally sprays her own living troops with the green gas and then raises them back as skeletons. You also have to call into question the morality of raising anyone as a skeleton.
What she says and what she does are at odds. She tells Saurfang that she's here to defend the living Horde, but then she kills a ton of her own dudes.
I mean... that's kinda war? It's not like the Alliance were hugging the Horde into submission. Sometimes troops have to be used in delaying or vanguard actions to preserve strategic control. The Battle of the Bulge, Arnhem, Dunkirk, etc. Destroyers being sent out on their own to screen torpedoes for aircraft carriers.
And... is blight really a chemical weapon in the same way, when the Forsaken can live through it just fine? They could blight all of Tirisfal and the the Forsaken could just move back in happily afterwards, just like before.
Burning Teldrassil was one thing, I admit, but today's stuff seemed to be pulling on sorta tropey notions of honorable warfare that only exist in fiction. Knights charging one another and defeating each other in duels or whatnot, when in reality they're being thrown off their horses and the horses get skewered from beneath by pikemen or getting hit by giant rocks from far away.
hippofant on
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited August 2018
I guess I can appreciate the lore they've stuck behind the three shaman weapons for Legion. Or two of them at least; Doomhammer they just figure everyone has played Warcraft games before.
Also I cast shaman healing spells for the first time in a lot of years just now. Looks like they're very AoE oriented for healing? I actually like that, if it is a trait unique to them among healers.
Edit - How do I get to Azsuna without Legion flying? I have no flight paths.
WoW has never had player choice or player agency in the story before. WoW has always been an on-rails story since the beginning.
But this is also the first time where that matters. Players have always "gone along with it" because whether they were playing Alliance or Horde, they were the good guys. The Horde were noble savages who aren't evil, just green and scary looking, but actually have hearts of gold. And the Alliance are the classic "good guys" that are generally portrayed in every fantasy setting ever.
BfA changes that. Now they are forcing Horde players to take evil actions whether they agree with it or not. There's no such thing as protesting. If you want to see the story and level up and access the new expansion content, you have to go along with it. You have to take those evil actions and be totally complicit whether you like it or not. There is no other option.
And that's the real problem here. Until now it hasn't mattered that this is an on-rails story. But now it matters. I want to be able to put my foot down and say "NO" and tell Sylvanas to go fuck herself. But they're not letting me.
Most of the Horde story lines in MoP boiled down to "how much of a shitbird can I be". Its not new.
Does make you wonder. Horde has always battled to win largely regardless of morality. From classic to now the "Noble Savage" has been a party line that died a few feet out of orgrimmar/thunder bluff.
I guess I just don't see the moral difference between blight and mage fire. Both kill you just as horrifically. And both sides field death knights...so raising the freshly dead is par for the course.
As a death knight these tactics are just mine. On a larger scale. I'd also be interested to see just how many horde players picked the "Mask AND blight gun option" almost all the ones in my raid did.
The blight leaves the area uninhabitable. Its chemical warfare.
Like, if Sylvanas deployed the blight in Mulgore or Durotar and turned it into a dead uninhabitable wasteland that would be an issue.
Burning things doesn't have that problem. Everything grows back.
How does Jaina get rid of it then?
With magical frost magic that doesn't work the same way frost magic has been shown to work for the last 14+ years.
That entire cutscene was such utter bullshit. It doesn't even begin to make sense.
Blizzard's magic system has no internal consistency. They bend and break the rules all the time for the sake of cutscenes and storytelling. The only thing that can be said is that "Jaina performed a miracle."
I guess I can appreciate the lore they've stuck behind the three shaman weapons for Legion. Or two of them at least; Doomhammer they just figure everyone has played Warcraft games before.
Also I cast shaman healing spells for the first time in a lot of years just now. Looks like they're very AoE oriented for healing? I actually like that, if it is a trait unique to them among healers.
Edit - How do I get to Azsuna without Legion flying? I have no flight paths.
The war table (or whatever) in your order hall should let you "scout" each of the 4 zones, via a tab at the bottom. That gives you a starter quest somewhere in Dalaran that will fly you out there.
Guys, I just did the Horde-side Lordraeron scenario and... Sylvanas seemed perfectly fine? I take some issue with the scenario but...
Everything Sylvanas did seemed fine? They have troops that can especially withstand blight, so it makes a lot of sense to use it to me. Plus apparently we had gas masks and shit. It seemed like we were fully prepared for this shit. Anduin said that it's killing the Horde troops, but I'm not sure that actually happened? Seemed like we had masks on and maybe he didn't realise it.
Saurfang calling it honorless does not make much sense to me. Burning Teldrassil, sure, but this just seems to be using a weapon. How different is using blight versus using some giant fucking fireball or blizzard? Does he just want combat to be purely hitting other people in the face? That doesn't seem to jive at all with WoW at all. We're always hitting shit in the back. That's where melee DPS is supposed to be!
The writing was, as usually, completely Alliance-biased I thought. All the Alliance leaders had their crazy powerful moments, while Baine and Saurfang and everybody else on the Horde are just running for their lives. Jaina and Alleria get some bullshit deus ex moments, rescuing an Alliance force that seemed to be just going in largely without any plan at all, while the Horde seemed to have plans upon plans upon plans? Kinda ridiculous imo.
I guess I'll watch the Alliance side in cutscenes and see what's what from the other perspective, but boy that seemed like some awfully one-sided writing there. Overall a good scenario, but my response to it is the opposite of what seemed to be intended.
Except for the part where she literally sprays her own living troops with the green gas and then raises them back as skeletons. You also have to call into question the morality of raising anyone as a skeleton.
What she says and what she does are at odds. She tells Saurfang that she's here to defend the living Horde, but then she kills a ton of her own dudes.
I mean... that's kinda war? It's not like the Alliance were hugging the Horde into submission. Sometimes troops have to be used in delaying or vanguard actions to preserve strategic control. The Battle of the Bulge, Arnhem, Dunkirk, etc. Destroyers being sent out on their own to screen torpedoes for aircraft carriers.
And... is blight really a chemical weapon in the same way, when the Forsaken can live through it just fine? They could blight all of Tirisfal and the the Forsaken could just move back in happily afterwards, just like before.
Burning Teldrassil was one thing, I admit, but today's stuff seemed to be pulling on sorta tropey notions of honorable warfare that only exist in fiction. Knights charging one another and defeating each other in duels or whatnot, when in reality they're getting skewered from beneath by pikemen or getting hit by giant rocks from far away.
Remember the Wrathgate? The Forsaken blight is so potent that it affected the Lich King. It melts the dead and the living.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
WoW has never had player choice or player agency in the story before. WoW has always been an on-rails story since the beginning.
But this is also the first time where that matters. Players have always "gone along with it" because whether they were playing Alliance or Horde, they were the good guys. The Horde were noble savages who aren't evil, just green and scary looking, but actually have hearts of gold. And the Alliance are the classic "good guys" that are generally portrayed in every fantasy setting ever.
BfA changes that. Now they are forcing Horde players to take evil actions whether they agree with it or not. There's no such thing as protesting. If you want to see the story and level up and access the new expansion content, you have to go along with it. You have to take those evil actions and be totally complicit whether you like it or not. There is no other option.
And that's the real problem here. Until now it hasn't mattered that this is an on-rails story. But now it matters. I want to be able to put my foot down and say "NO" and tell Sylvanas to go fuck herself. But they're not letting me.
Most of the Horde story lines in MoP boiled down to "how much of a shitbird can I be". Its not new.
Does make you wonder. Horde has always battled to win largely regardless of morality. From classic to now the "Noble Savage" has been a party line that died a few feet out of orgrimmar/thunder bluff.
I guess I just don't see the moral difference between blight and mage fire. Both kill you just as horrifically. And both sides field death knights...so raising the freshly dead is par for the course.
As a death knight these tactics are just mine. On a larger scale. I'd also be interested to see just how many horde players picked the "Mask AND blight gun option" almost all the ones in my raid did.
The blight leaves the area uninhabitable. Its chemical warfare.
Like, if Sylvanas deployed the blight in Mulgore or Durotar and turned it into a dead uninhabitable wasteland that would be an issue.
Burning things doesn't have that problem. Everything grows back.
How does Jaina get rid of it then?
With magical frost magic that doesn't work the same way frost magic has been shown to work for the last 14+ years.
That entire cutscene was such utter bullshit. It doesn't even begin to make sense.
Blizzard's magic system has no internal consistency. They bend and break the rules all the time for the sake of cutscenes and storytelling. The only thing that can be said is that "Jaina performed a miracle."
She used a wish spell and wished it all away.
Cool. Then you can just use the same magic again to get rid of it now.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I guess I can appreciate the lore they've stuck behind the three shaman weapons for Legion. Or two of them at least; Doomhammer they just figure everyone has played Warcraft games before.
Also I cast shaman healing spells for the first time in a lot of years just now. Looks like they're very AoE oriented for healing? I actually like that, if it is a trait unique to them among healers.
Edit - How do I get to Azsuna without Legion flying? I have no flight paths.
The war table (or whatever) in your order hall should let you "scout" each of the 4 zones, via a tab at the bottom. That gives you a starter quest somewhere in Dalaran that will fly you out there.
Huzzah, thank you.
BTW I have a feeling a lot of these gray quality items I'm getting as rewards were meant for a function now removed from the game. Didn't these weapons have their own sort of talent trees?
I can't understand still playing this game and not being able to take everything changing to fit whatever they're trying to do at a given moment in stride.
Also, the forsaken are already dead, some of them don't have jaws, and they certainly don't need to breath. That's why they have their underwater breathing racial. The only reason it isn't infinite is for balance reasons.
The forsaken are immune to plague because they're already dead. It's as simple as that.
Guys, I just did the Horde-side Lordraeron scenario and... Sylvanas seemed perfectly fine? I take some issue with the scenario but...
Everything Sylvanas did seemed fine? They have troops that can especially withstand blight, so it makes a lot of sense to use it to me. Plus apparently we had gas masks and shit. It seemed like we were fully prepared for this shit. Anduin said that it's killing the Horde troops, but I'm not sure that actually happened? Seemed like we had masks on and maybe he didn't realise it.
Saurfang calling it honorless does not make much sense to me. Burning Teldrassil, sure, but this just seems to be using a weapon. How different is using blight versus using some giant fucking fireball or blizzard? Does he just want combat to be purely hitting other people in the face? That doesn't seem to jive at all with WoW at all. We're always hitting shit in the back. That's where melee DPS is supposed to be!
The writing was, as usually, completely Alliance-biased I thought. All the Alliance leaders had their crazy powerful moments, while Baine and Saurfang and everybody else on the Horde are just running for their lives. Jaina and Alleria get some bullshit deus ex moments, rescuing an Alliance force that seemed to be just going in largely without any plan at all, while the Horde seemed to have plans upon plans upon plans? Kinda ridiculous imo.
I guess I'll watch the Alliance side in cutscenes and see what's what from the other perspective, but boy that seemed like some awfully one-sided writing there. Overall a good scenario, but my response to it is the opposite of what seemed to be intended.
Except for the part where she literally sprays her own living troops with the green gas and then raises them back as skeletons. You also have to call into question the morality of raising anyone as a skeleton.
What she says and what she does are at odds. She tells Saurfang that she's here to defend the living Horde, but then she kills a ton of her own dudes.
I mean... that's kinda war? It's not like the Alliance were hugging the Horde into submission. Sometimes troops have to be used in delaying or vanguard actions to preserve strategic control. The Battle of the Bulge, Arnhem, Dunkirk, etc. Destroyers being sent out on their own to screen torpedoes for aircraft carriers.
And... is blight really a chemical weapon in the same way, when the Forsaken can live through it just fine? They could blight all of Tirisfal and the the Forsaken could just move back in happily afterwards, just like before.
Burning Teldrassil was one thing, I admit, but today's stuff seemed to be pulling on sorta tropey notions of honorable warfare that only exist in fiction. Knights charging one another and defeating each other in duels or whatnot, when in reality they're getting skewered from beneath by pikemen or getting hit by giant rocks from far away.
Remember the Wrathgate? The Forsaken blight is so potent that it affected the Lich King. It melts the dead and the living.
Is this that blight?
I dunno if it was an oversight or what, but I don't really recall seeing any forsaken out there on the battlefield at all, so I have no idea. Still, a gas mask alone seemed sufficient to protect us, so that doesn't seem right if it was really that potent.
But that blight also dissipated afterwards. You could just stand around in Wrathgate after the fact and not melt, so it's a temporary thing and doesn't affect the land forever, I think?
Sylvanas ending up as some sort of valkyr demigoddess doing Helya's old job would be pretty cool
I mean, it solves a lot of peoples problems.
It gives the Forsaken a place to go after they die that isn't Abyss-time with Arthas. Helya was shown to have the power to resurrect minions as undead, so it let's her keep the Forsaken a presence in Azeroth. It also keeps her away from leadership of the Horde.
Really it just comes down to the rules of who gets to stay/go back to the physical world and who stays in Helheim.
MuddBudd on
There's no plan, there's no race to be run
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
I can't understand still playing this game and not being able to take everything changing to fit whatever they're trying to do at a given moment in stride.
This is WoW. Canon is just a guideline.
Its not really about the specifics, its about narrative.
And right now the narrative is that Sylvanas is a mustache twirling villain that needs to be put down. Which is not a very gripping narrative.
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Also they're alienating the players of an entire faction with their ham-fisted narrative that nobody at all would go along with if given the choice. That's the most irritating part to me. I don't want this war. My character doesn't want this war. My character doesn't want to kill Malfurion, or burn Teldrassil, or throw plague at the Alliance or any of that.
3 weeks of War of Thorns, and not one thing would my character do if allowed to take some RP actions/choices.
Also they're alienating the players of an entire faction with their ham-fisted narrative that nobody at all would go along with if given the choice. That's the most irritating part to me. I don't want this war. My character doesn't want this war. My character doesn't want to kill Malfurion, or burn Teldrassil, or throw plague at the Alliance or any of that.
3 weeks of War of Thorns, and not one thing would my character do if allowed to take some RP actions/choices.
The game has never given you an rp option aside from "don't do these quests"
Guys, I just did the Horde-side Lordraeron scenario and... Sylvanas seemed perfectly fine? I take some issue with the scenario but...
Everything Sylvanas did seemed fine? They have troops that can especially withstand blight, so it makes a lot of sense to use it to me. Plus apparently we had gas masks and shit. It seemed like we were fully prepared for this shit. Anduin said that it's killing the Horde troops, but I'm not sure that actually happened? Seemed like we had masks on and maybe he didn't realise it.
Saurfang calling it honorless does not make much sense to me. Burning Teldrassil, sure, but this just seems to be using a weapon. How different is using blight versus using some giant fucking fireball or blizzard? Does he just want combat to be purely hitting other people in the face? That doesn't seem to jive at all with WoW at all. We're always hitting shit in the back. That's where melee DPS is supposed to be!
The writing was, as usually, completely Alliance-biased I thought. All the Alliance leaders had their crazy powerful moments, while Baine and Saurfang and everybody else on the Horde are just running for their lives. Jaina and Alleria get some bullshit deus ex moments, rescuing an Alliance force that seemed to be just going in largely without any plan at all, while the Horde seemed to have plans upon plans upon plans? Kinda ridiculous imo.
I guess I'll watch the Alliance side in cutscenes and see what's what from the other perspective, but boy that seemed like some awfully one-sided writing there. Overall a good scenario, but my response to it is the opposite of what seemed to be intended.
Except for the part where she literally sprays her own living troops with the green gas and then raises them back as skeletons. You also have to call into question the morality of raising anyone as a skeleton.
What she says and what she does are at odds. She tells Saurfang that she's here to defend the living Horde, but then she kills a ton of her own dudes.
I mean... that's kinda war? It's not like the Alliance were hugging the Horde into submission. Sometimes troops have to be used in delaying or vanguard actions to preserve strategic control. The Battle of the Bulge, Arnhem, Dunkirk, etc. Destroyers being sent out on their own to screen torpedoes for aircraft carriers.
And... is blight really a chemical weapon in the same way, when the Forsaken can live through it just fine? They could blight all of Tirisfal and the the Forsaken could just move back in happily afterwards, just like before.
Burning Teldrassil was one thing, I admit, but today's stuff seemed to be pulling on sorta tropey notions of honorable warfare that only exist in fiction. Knights charging one another and defeating each other in duels or whatnot, when in reality they're getting skewered from beneath by pikemen or getting hit by giant rocks from far away.
Remember the Wrathgate? The Forsaken blight is so potent that it affected the Lich King. It melts the dead and the living.
Is this that blight?
I dunno if it was an oversight or what, but I don't really recall seeing any forsaken out there on the battlefield at all, so I have no idea. Still, a gas mask alone seemed sufficient to protect us, so that doesn't seem right if it was really that potent.
But that blight also dissipated afterwards. You could just stand around in Wrathgate after the fact and not melt, so it's a temporary thing and doesn't affect the land forever, I think?
Edit: Spoilers for safety.
The best example right now of the Blight's use in warfare is Southshore.
Southshore was rendered uninhabitable after this, as highly toxic blight remnants were left spread throughout the ruins. The Forsaken took partial control of the ruins but due to the toxicity of the blight, the land would be inhospitable for a hundred years or so.[2]
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
+1
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
She doesn't get rid of it, she just freezes it out of the air so the Alliance can advance.
If you go back to the area afterwards everything is still covered in the blight.
Because of the part at the end where Sylvanas sets off more blight as she makes her escape through the belltower. The Blight is gone, you can walk back out during the Alliance section and stand in front of the city and there's nothing there.
Dhalphir on
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Blizzard will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, in a thousand million years get rid of the Alliance and the Horde. Ever. That branding is so integral to WarCraft that it's absolutely permanent.
Which is terrible, but they're undead, its not like age is a factor. Think about that.
They can wait for the land to recover and then start using it. The Forsaken might be the longest 'lived' race on Azeroth, now that the Night Elves aren't immortal.
It's a bit terrifying to be honest.
MuddBudd on
There's no plan, there's no race to be run
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
Also they're alienating the players of an entire faction with their ham-fisted narrative that nobody at all would go along with if given the choice. That's the most irritating part to me. I don't want this war. My character doesn't want this war. My character doesn't want to kill Malfurion, or burn Teldrassil, or throw plague at the Alliance or any of that.
3 weeks of War of Thorns, and not one thing would my character do if allowed to take some RP actions/choices.
The game has never given you an rp option aside from "don't do these quests"
It's also over-estimating how many players consider themselves the peak of moral hero. If you chose the faction with Forsaken you had to know various plagues were on the table...it's their whole shtick, always has been.
Maybe they should play a death knight for awhile. Just the starting area would do, but the legion class hall quests would do too. You'd be shocked what your DK allies are just fine with.
Also they're alienating the players of an entire faction with their ham-fisted narrative that nobody at all would go along with if given the choice. That's the most irritating part to me. I don't want this war. My character doesn't want this war. My character doesn't want to kill Malfurion, or burn Teldrassil, or throw plague at the Alliance or any of that.
3 weeks of War of Thorns, and not one thing would my character do if allowed to take some RP actions/choices.
The game has never given you an rp option aside from "don't do these quests"
It's also over-estimating how many players consider themselves the peak of moral hero. If you chose the faction with Forsaken you had to know various plagues were on the table...it's their whole shtick, always has been.
Maybe they should play a death knight for awhile. Just the starting area would do, but the legion class hall quests would do too. You'd be shocked what your DK allies are just fine with.
IIRC isn't the Death Knight starting area time-shifted to before they broke free of Arthas?
There's no plan, there's no race to be run
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
+1
Options
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
But that blight also dissipated afterwards. You could just stand around in Wrathgate after the fact and not melt, so it's a temporary thing and doesn't affect the land forever, I think?
But that blight also dissipated afterwards. You could just stand around in Wrathgate after the fact and not melt, so it's a temporary thing and doesn't affect the land forever, I think?
the red dragons burned the whole area.
So fire clears blight, or only special red dragon fire? I never really got to see that stuff cuz I didn't play Wrath and it got removed in later expansions.
I dunno. Modern world chemical weapon bans are kinda dubious themselves, but then in a world where we summon demons, set people on fire, use mystical shadow energy to flay people's souls or whatever, ... I get that it fits into the narrative they're doing with Sylvanas right now, but what she did in Arathi and Darnassus were waaay worse than this. This was an actual battlefield and I dunno, I recall doing shit like poisoning enemy water supplies in vanilla and whatnot.
hippofant on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
But that blight also dissipated afterwards. You could just stand around in Wrathgate after the fact and not melt, so it's a temporary thing and doesn't affect the land forever, I think?
the red dragons burned the whole area.
So fire clears blight, or only special red dragon fire? I never really got to see that stuff cuz I didn't play Wrath and it got removed in later expansions.
But that blight also dissipated afterwards. You could just stand around in Wrathgate after the fact and not melt, so it's a temporary thing and doesn't affect the land forever, I think?
the red dragons burned the whole area.
I think it's pretty clear magic can get rid of it at this point. Even if that itself wasn't evidence of it.
But that blight also dissipated afterwards. You could just stand around in Wrathgate after the fact and not melt, so it's a temporary thing and doesn't affect the land forever, I think?
the red dragons burned the whole area.
So fire clears blight, or only special red dragon fire? I never really got to see that stuff cuz I didn't play Wrath and it got removed in later expansions.
Special Red Dragon Fire.
If you do Icecrown quests you find a scourge-infected Crusader who you try to also cure with the Life-Binders fire.
And at this point, I am not sure if Alextrasza even has that power, now that she's not an Aspect.
Maybe they should play a death knight for awhile. Just the starting area would do, but the legion class hall quests would do too. You'd be shocked what your DK allies are just fine with.
IIRC isn't the Death Knight starting area time-shifted to before they broke free of Arthas?
It is, but they do equally abhorrent stuff during the Legion campaign when they ostensibly (Bolvar theories aside) have free will.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
But that blight also dissipated afterwards. You could just stand around in Wrathgate after the fact and not melt, so it's a temporary thing and doesn't affect the land forever, I think?
the red dragons burned the whole area.
So fire clears blight, or only special red dragon fire? I never really got to see that stuff cuz I didn't play Wrath and it got removed in later expansions.
Special Red Dragon Fire.
If you do Icecrown quests you find a scourge-infected Crusader who you try to also cure with the Life-Binders fire.
And at this point, I am not sure if Alextrasza even has that power, now that she's not an Aspect.
3 weeks of War of Thorns, and not one thing would my character do if allowed to take some RP actions/choices.
This is World of Warcraft, not Mass Effect or Knights of the Old Republic.
That's not really a meaningful counterargument. MMOs can't tell flexible stories like singleplayer RPGs can, sure. But that's a fourth wall limitation, not something that excuses crap storytelling.
The limitations of MMOs as a genre in allowing for flexible storytelling is precisely the reason why you have to be very careful about forcing players to take actions that don't make sense for their characters.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Blizzard will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, in a thousand million years get rid of the Alliance and the Horde. Ever. That branding is so integral to WarCraft that it's absolutely permanent.
Which is why it's so, so, SO infuriating that they keep telling stories for which any logical action for a rational actor within the story would lead to one side or the other being permanently defeated, because it continually forces them to choose arbitrary and illogical outcomes in order to jam the story back on to the "uneasy peace" rails so that they can introduce big bads, and then find new macguffins to jam the story back into factional conflict to sell expansions, then around and around it goes.
It's like they think players are idiots, and will fall for them teasing the end of factional conflict only to reignite it, over and over again. We're not stupid. We know they can't get rid of the Alliance and the Horde, so the whole time we're doing these stories, we're thinking about that.
Nobody in the Alliance is excited about getting to put the screws to the Horde, because if they have half a brain they know it'll just be a finger wagging "don't you do that again" like it always is.
And nobody in the Horde is excited to be able to do any of this, even if they do embrace factional conflict, because you know that it's just a matter of time until you're all cooperating again.
It doesn't matter how brutal the atrocities that they force into the story are, because the nature of the game demands that they will eventually be forgiven. And for anyone who can argue with a straight face "maybe it will be different this time", that's the whole point. It can't be different, because the nature of WoW and MMOs in general prevents it from being different.
Dhalphir on
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
3 weeks of War of Thorns, and not one thing would my character do if allowed to take some RP actions/choices.
This is World of Warcraft, not Mass Effect or Knights of the Old Republic.
That's not really a meaningful counterargument. MMOs can't tell flexible stories like singleplayer RPGs can, sure. But that's a fourth wall limitation, not something that excuses crap storytelling.
The limitations of MMOs as a genre in allowing for flexible storytelling is precisely the reason why you have to be very careful about forcing players to take actions that don't make sense for their characters.
But you're not playing your character in WoW. You're playing a character that Blizzard has crafted a story for, along with the stories going on in their setting.
I sometimes wonder about the expectations people have when it comes to character creation, and their character having their story, etc. You're gonna clash with the mechanics and practical realities of game design pretty hard.
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She doesn't get rid of it, she just freezes it out of the air so the Alliance can advance.
If you go back to the area afterwards everything is still covered in the blight.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
And... is blight really a chemical weapon in the same way, when the Forsaken can live through it just fine? They could blight all of Tirisfal and the the Forsaken could just move back in happily afterwards, just like before.
Burning Teldrassil was one thing, I admit, but today's stuff seemed to be pulling on sorta tropey notions of honorable warfare that only exist in fiction. Knights charging one another and defeating each other in duels or whatnot, when in reality they're being thrown off their horses and the horses get skewered from beneath by pikemen or getting hit by giant rocks from far away.
Also I cast shaman healing spells for the first time in a lot of years just now. Looks like they're very AoE oriented for healing? I actually like that, if it is a trait unique to them among healers.
Edit - How do I get to Azsuna without Legion flying? I have no flight paths.
With magical frost magic that doesn't work the same way frost magic has been shown to work for the last 14+ years.
That entire cutscene was such utter bullshit. It doesn't even begin to make sense.
Blizzard's magic system has no internal consistency. They bend and break the rules all the time for the sake of cutscenes and storytelling. The only thing that can be said is that "Jaina performed a miracle."
She used a wish spell and wished it all away.
The war table (or whatever) in your order hall should let you "scout" each of the 4 zones, via a tab at the bottom. That gives you a starter quest somewhere in Dalaran that will fly you out there.
Boat-ex-Machina
All in all, I thought it was good....
I still don't know what class to play damnit...
PSN = PessimistMaximus
Remember the Wrathgate? The Forsaken blight is so potent that it affected the Lich King. It melts the dead and the living.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Cool. Then you can just use the same magic again to get rid of it now.
BTW I have a feeling a lot of these gray quality items I'm getting as rewards were meant for a function now removed from the game. Didn't these weapons have their own sort of talent trees?
This is WoW. Canon is just a guideline.
The forsaken are immune to plague because they're already dead. It's as simple as that.
I dunno if it was an oversight or what, but I don't really recall seeing any forsaken out there on the battlefield at all, so I have no idea. Still, a gas mask alone seemed sufficient to protect us, so that doesn't seem right if it was really that potent.
But that blight also dissipated afterwards. You could just stand around in Wrathgate after the fact and not melt, so it's a temporary thing and doesn't affect the land forever, I think?
Edit: Spoilers for safety.
I mean, it solves a lot of peoples problems.
It gives the Forsaken a place to go after they die that isn't Abyss-time with Arthas. Helya was shown to have the power to resurrect minions as undead, so it let's her keep the Forsaken a presence in Azeroth. It also keeps her away from leadership of the Horde.
Really it just comes down to the rules of who gets to stay/go back to the physical world and who stays in Helheim.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
Its not really about the specifics, its about narrative.
And right now the narrative is that Sylvanas is a mustache twirling villain that needs to be put down. Which is not a very gripping narrative.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
3 weeks of War of Thorns, and not one thing would my character do if allowed to take some RP actions/choices.
The game has never given you an rp option aside from "don't do these quests"
The best example right now of the Blight's use in warfare is Southshore.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Ruins_of_Southshore
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
They can wait for the land to recover and then start using it. The Forsaken might be the longest 'lived' race on Azeroth, now that the Night Elves aren't immortal.
It's a bit terrifying to be honest.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
It's also over-estimating how many players consider themselves the peak of moral hero. If you chose the faction with Forsaken you had to know various plagues were on the table...it's their whole shtick, always has been.
Maybe they should play a death knight for awhile. Just the starting area would do, but the legion class hall quests would do too. You'd be shocked what your DK allies are just fine with.
IIRC isn't the Death Knight starting area time-shifted to before they broke free of Arthas?
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
the red dragons burned the whole area.
So fire clears blight, or only special red dragon fire? I never really got to see that stuff cuz I didn't play Wrath and it got removed in later expansions.
I dunno. Modern world chemical weapon bans are kinda dubious themselves, but then in a world where we summon demons, set people on fire, use mystical shadow energy to flay people's souls or whatever, ... I get that it fits into the narrative they're doing with Sylvanas right now, but what she did in Arathi and Darnassus were waaay worse than this. This was an actual battlefield and I dunno, I recall doing shit like poisoning enemy water supplies in vanilla and whatnot.
special red dragon fire
I think it's pretty clear magic can get rid of it at this point. Even if that itself wasn't evidence of it.
Special Red Dragon Fire.
If you do Icecrown quests you find a scourge-infected Crusader who you try to also cure with the Life-Binders fire.
And at this point, I am not sure if Alextrasza even has that power, now that she's not an Aspect.
-edit-
Here's the cinematic.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
It is, but they do equally abhorrent stuff during the Legion campaign when they ostensibly (Bolvar theories aside) have free will.
"Don't worry, that wasn't nearly as painful as it looked".
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
That's not really a meaningful counterargument. MMOs can't tell flexible stories like singleplayer RPGs can, sure. But that's a fourth wall limitation, not something that excuses crap storytelling.
The limitations of MMOs as a genre in allowing for flexible storytelling is precisely the reason why you have to be very careful about forcing players to take actions that don't make sense for their characters.
I was actually going to say that I was surprised how well the quality of Wrathgate held up, despite being ten years separated.
As opposed the breath of plant life, which is a Green thing.
Ummm, excuse me sir, but where are all your Battle Pet quests?
Oh no, did you get hit by the wiped quest log bug?!
Which is why it's so, so, SO infuriating that they keep telling stories for which any logical action for a rational actor within the story would lead to one side or the other being permanently defeated, because it continually forces them to choose arbitrary and illogical outcomes in order to jam the story back on to the "uneasy peace" rails so that they can introduce big bads, and then find new macguffins to jam the story back into factional conflict to sell expansions, then around and around it goes.
It's like they think players are idiots, and will fall for them teasing the end of factional conflict only to reignite it, over and over again. We're not stupid. We know they can't get rid of the Alliance and the Horde, so the whole time we're doing these stories, we're thinking about that.
Nobody in the Alliance is excited about getting to put the screws to the Horde, because if they have half a brain they know it'll just be a finger wagging "don't you do that again" like it always is.
And nobody in the Horde is excited to be able to do any of this, even if they do embrace factional conflict, because you know that it's just a matter of time until you're all cooperating again.
It doesn't matter how brutal the atrocities that they force into the story are, because the nature of the game demands that they will eventually be forgiven. And for anyone who can argue with a straight face "maybe it will be different this time", that's the whole point. It can't be different, because the nature of WoW and MMOs in general prevents it from being different.
I sometimes wonder about the expectations people have when it comes to character creation, and their character having their story, etc. You're gonna clash with the mechanics and practical realities of game design pretty hard.