I like that there is an actual option for burst healing support now. Blizzard has slowly be reducing the ability of supports to affect teamfights since the support apocalypse and there was a danger of all supports simply falling out of the meta. If no support is capable of dealing with burst and we enter a burst meta then no support could end up being the dominate playstyle or you have a game like Dota or League where the support player doesn't have as much impact on the game as the rest of the team. Supports should be important, supports should be able to make plays because it's fun to be impactful and feel like you made a contribution towards winning the game.
Whitemane is a well designed heroes with strengths and weaknesses. She excels at countering burst while struggling to keep up with poke damage. She was overtuned at release but after her nerfs she's down to 50% winrate on hots logs. The nerf to her Q talent at 4 really hurt and is probably the reason for it. She used to be able to do sustain healing by hitting Q twice and then letting her stacks fade but after the nerf she'll run dry if she tries that and can really only do single Q heals if she doesn't want to start teamfights with half mana. This means that she can't really infinitely sustain her team like a stukov/deckard/malf can and doesn't do well in a situation where those healers excel.
Previously if the enemy team drafted burst, you could either take reghar who is more of an all-around healer since his changes or uther who got nerfed into the ground a long time. Whitemane lets you have a chance of countering burst while playing a hero who is just as capable of making plays or winning fights as an assassin or tank.
Battlenet ID: NullPointer
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Healing is one of those things that is potentially more trouble than it's worth from a design perspective. I can see the allure but man, it's such a PITA to design and balance around in competitive team-based games.
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
you have a game like Dota or League where the support player doesn't have as much impact on the game as the rest of the team. Supports should be important, supports should be able to make plays because it's fun to be impactful and feel like you made a contribution towards winning the game.
Woah, hold on, that's a bit out of left field. Supports in DotA and LoL are defined as being playmakers; because they don't have the massive healing numbers of HotS supports they contribute by providing CC, cheap burst, and fight-swinging ults, which can all be very impactful.
you have a game like Dota or League where the support player doesn't have as much impact on the game as the rest of the team. Supports should be important, supports should be able to make plays because it's fun to be impactful and feel like you made a contribution towards winning the game.
Woah, hold on, that's a bit out of left field. Supports in DotA and LoL are defined as being playmakers; because they don't have the massive healing numbers of HotS supports they contribute by providing CC, cheap burst, and fight-swinging ults, which can all be very impactful.
Yeah, the last TI position 4 and 5 (the least farmed heroes) were often MVPs.
you have a game like Dota or League where the support player doesn't have as much impact on the game as the rest of the team. Supports should be important, supports should be able to make plays because it's fun to be impactful and feel like you made a contribution towards winning the game.
Woah, hold on, that's a bit out of left field. Supports in DotA and LoL are defined as being playmakers; because they don't have the massive healing numbers of HotS supports they contribute by providing CC, cheap burst, and fight-swinging ults, which can all be very impactful.
Yeah, the last TI position 4 and 5 (the least farmed heroes) were often MVPs.
Then retract my statements about Dota, I was just remembering the meta of LoL when I last played where it was becoming increasingly common to play mid-lane mages in the support role pushing out the dedicated support champions. It increasingly felt that the game was a 4v4 with an extra person on each team who's job was to buy wards and maybe use an CC ult in teamfights.
you have a game like Dota or League where the support player doesn't have as much impact on the game as the rest of the team. Supports should be important, supports should be able to make plays because it's fun to be impactful and feel like you made a contribution towards winning the game.
Woah, hold on, that's a bit out of left field. Supports in DotA and LoL are defined as being playmakers; because they don't have the massive healing numbers of HotS supports they contribute by providing CC, cheap burst, and fight-swinging ults, which can all be very impactful.
Yeah, the last TI position 4 and 5 (the least farmed heroes) were often MVPs.
Then retract my statements about Dota, I was just remembering the meta of LoL when I last played where it was becoming increasingly common to play mid-lane mages in the support role pushing out the dedicated support champions. It increasingly felt that the game was a 4v4 with an extra person on each team who's job was to buy wards and maybe use an CC ult in teamfights.
I think that hits on a note about how I felt when I tried to play Dota. At the high tier level of competitive play, the support is a valuable member of the team. But at the casual level where you play with randoms, the support's job is to be a second class citizen whose job is to forfeit all of the XP so that others can have the glory, and to spend the majority of your meager pennies refreshing wards so that Mr moneybags carry can buy something outrageously expensive to make his epeen larger.
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Armchair: 4098-3704-2012
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
you have a game like Dota or League where the support player doesn't have as much impact on the game as the rest of the team. Supports should be important, supports should be able to make plays because it's fun to be impactful and feel like you made a contribution towards winning the game.
Woah, hold on, that's a bit out of left field. Supports in DotA and LoL are defined as being playmakers; because they don't have the massive healing numbers of HotS supports they contribute by providing CC, cheap burst, and fight-swinging ults, which can all be very impactful.
Yeah, the last TI position 4 and 5 (the least farmed heroes) were often MVPs.
Then retract my statements about Dota, I was just remembering the meta of LoL when I last played where it was becoming increasingly common to play mid-lane mages in the support role pushing out the dedicated support champions. It increasingly felt that the game was a 4v4 with an extra person on each team who's job was to buy wards and maybe use an CC ult in teamfights.
I think that hits on a note about how I felt when I tried to play Dota. At the high tier level of competitive play, the support is a valuable member of the team. But at the casual level where you play with randoms, the support's job is to be a second class citizen whose job is to forfeit all of the XP so that others can have the glory, and to spend the majority of your meager pennies refreshing wards so that Mr moneybags carry can buy something outrageously expensive to make his epeen larger.
Ah, but then there's the opportunity for you to be the clever and spiteful support that hoovers up all the XP and gold your teammates leave on the map because they're bad and carry them kicking and screaming to victory while smugly knowing you're the reason why you won despite them being the one with five rapiers as the enemy Ancient collapses.
Supports don't need items because they have strong and impactful abilities. Carries, on the other hand, are basically just auto-attackers, so they need items to be more effective.
I was a victim of the placement bug last season and it threw me down into gold. Since I'm doing NGS I decided I should probably plays some HL again so I can have an accurate MMR.
I'm just gonna put this out there - looking at this draft maybe there's a reason some of these people are sitting in gold.
Supports don't need items because they have strong and impactful abilities. Carries, on the other hand, are basically just auto-attackers, so they need items to be more effective.
That's the truth as far as the game is balanced, but it didn't help that the overall atmosphere from the quick-play community was of carries getting all the glory and generally claiming credit for success while supports were treated like shit, made to do the non-glamorous work, and were generally blamed for the failures.
That was my experience with DotA and LoL at least. Part of the reason that I prefer HotS is that there is no individual XP or gold to forfeit to the carries (who were often the more selfish jerk type players, and all too often they squandered the resources allocated to them).
I was a victim of the placement bug last season and it threw me down into gold. Since I'm doing NGS I decided I should probably plays some HL again so I can have an accurate MMR.
I'm just gonna put this out there - looking at this draft maybe there's a reason some of these people are sitting in gold.
If that's draft order, the only truly onerous thing to me is a 5th pick Illidan into the rest of that comp. LiLi isn't a great pick either, but at least gets some value vs Fenix and chainstun-Muradin.
How did this match turn out? I'm genuinely curious, lol. Neither team has waveclear, on arguably the most waveclear-essential map in the game, although your team does have the Fenix, so he could potentially one-shot the enemy Zerg Rush with a Planet Cracker. Rexxar vs Fenix in the top lane's interesting, but I'm pretty sure Rexxar wins because (among other things) Fenix can't stand on the point indefinitely the way that Misha can. Even if the fight itself is really even, I don't think Fenix is capable of ever capturing the point unless he outright kills Rexxar. That leaves Garrosh, Muradin, Rehgar and Nazeebo in the bottom lane, meaning you have zero damage and no easy way to secure value from Garrosh throws. Having said that, their bottom lane kinda sucks, too. The right play for them is almost certainly to have Illidan focus on taking camps on cooldown while they three-man the lane. It's not like they hurt themselves much by doing so, because your team doesn't threaten much kill pressure, has no real means of threatening their structures even if they do have numbers-advantage and can push in, your team has zero waveclear to stop the mercs, and it isn't like Rexxar's ever going to lose objective progress up top to Fenix, anyway.
If Illidan plays it smart, I think Red Team can win. Having said that, he's a Bronze Illidan, so he almost certainly doesn't understand how to leverage the map to his team's advantage. Red Team's damage is a little low, and against Muradin / Fenix, who are both capable of tremendous self-healing if they just aren't pressured for a couple of seconds, and a Garrosh, who's just tanky as fuck in general, I think that's a big problem. They really have to win with proper map pressure. Blue Team, in comparison, lacks any true damage, and Naz will struggle to stack into the late game because he can't rotate for stacks on Braxxis. It's maybe not the worst idea in the world to actually trade Nazeebo to the top lane for Fenix. You'd never, ever have any possibility of winning top against Rexxar, but you probably weren't going to get it with Fenix, anyway, and at least Fenix is capable of dishing out the damage in the bottom lane. Blue's burden of execution is also much lower, I think: sure, they don't have a ton of ways to capitalize on a Garrosh pick opportunity, but it doesn't take much to kill an out-of-position Chromie or Illidan, and we're talking about Bronze Chromie and Illidan, so you can pretty safely bet they'll be consistently out of position.
If Red Team wins an objective post-10, though, and Fenix didn't take Planet Cracker, Blue's in deep fucking trouble. Especially if Arthas takes Sindy -- they'll take a Keep with any healthy Zerg wave and I don't think there's much, if anything, Blue can do about it.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I think in that weird situation, you put Muradin in the off lane? Because otherwise yeah, no damage.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
How did this match turn out? I'm genuinely curious, lol.
In the early game my team was a little uncoordinated and we had 2 deaths in the starting clash. After that we got settled and basically won every team fight and got to 100 on every objective. There was one unfortunate loss when we were 16 and split and the other team was 15, but they used the time to get boss so our Nazeebo and Fenix got our bruiser camp, defended, and it basically did nothing. They ignored one of our waves and got down to 17% core. Then they took another boss and got a fort, maybe. A team fight after that over their bruiser camp scored us some kills and we walked in and finished. We had a pretty good syncronization where I'd taunt and Fenix would planet cracker. They basically couldn't stop us (literally - unstoppable) from walking in to assault Chromie.
Let's talk about @milk ducks. He's been a great dude on the forums, been helpful in sharing tips/strats for heroes, and been a big help in tournament organization/streaming. Basically everything you want out of a PA member.
So a couple of days ago, I decided to create a GoFundMe page to help ducks buy a new PC. I created a secret group on b.net and invited some people from the HotS thread to see if they could chip in. I set our goal to $800, which I figured is enough for a solid, modern PC or at least a big chunk off the final price. As of this morning, we just passed $400 in donations! Amazing!
I'm going to keep the GoFundMe page open for a few more days in case anyone else wants to chip in. Since I can't post direct links on the forums, you'll have to PM me here or on B.Net for the link.
Once again, thanks to everyone who donated! You've all gone above and beyond once again. Makes me proud to be a member of this great community!
My only request is that when ducks gets everything up and running, that he starts streaming his HotS games in Ultra High graphics settings.
Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051 Steam ID Twitch Page
Holy shit, guys. That's totally not necessary! I don't really know what to say. Things have been super rough because like, all four kids have their birthdays coming up at the very end of the year. I actually sold my xbox one last night to a buddy of mine to help cover the cost of the service fee and go toward some new components. I brought my computer in this morning to get it repaired and the guy that looked at it had no idea what was up. He said they could take it in but they'd charge like a hundred and fifty bucks and there's no guarantee it would fix anything. I ended up dropping about $500 on a new PC, rather than pay out the ass for potentially nothing. It isn't great by any standard, but I figured it would hold me over until tax time when I could afford something a bit better. As much as I deeply appreciate it, I don't think that I can ethically accept any money for a new computer after I've already purchased one. I just don't know how I'd feel about that.
Holy shit, guys. That's totally not necessary! I don't really know what to say. Things have been super rough because like, all four kids have their birthdays coming up at the very end of the year. I actually sold my xbox one last night to a buddy of mine to help cover the cost of the service fee and go toward some new components. I brought my computer in this morning to get it repaired and the guy that looked at it had no idea what was up. He said they could take it in but they'd charge like a hundred and fifty bucks and there's no guarantee it would fix anything. I ended up dropping about $500 on a new PC, rather than pay out the ass for potentially nothing. It isn't great by any standard, but I figured it would hold me over until tax time when I could afford something a bit better. As much as I deeply appreciate it, I don't think that I can ethically accept any money for a new computer after I've already purchased one. I just don't know how I'd feel about that.
Well consider our donations as either a rebate on the machine you just bought or as part upgrades. Can never have enough RAM or a nicer video card, right?
Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051 Steam ID Twitch Page
You guys really didn't need to do that, but I really truly appreciate it. Thank you. I don't know what to say. I honestly don't think anyone has ever done anything so nice for me in my life.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
You guys really didn't need to do that, but I really truly appreciate it. Thank you. I don't know what to say. I honestly don't think anyone has ever done anything so nice for me in my life.
The forums are a pretty great place of pretty great people.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I was just telling Dover in chat, like, I don't really know how to say thank you for this. I feel like I must seem ungrateful because each time I try to write down how I feel about this, it just doesn't seem like enough. This is honest to God the nicest thing anyone's ever done for me and I deeply appreciate it. I don't know what else I can say.
I might need some help from you guys once the GoFundMe page has finished. I'm not good with shopping around for upgrades; I'm never certain what's going to work with my setup and what's the best value. I really want to make the most out of this generosity by getting the best possible upgrades I can find for the best prices. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I might need some help from you guys once the GoFundMe page has finished. I'm not good with shopping around for upgrades; I'm never certain what's going to work with my setup and what's the best value. I really want to make the most out of this generosity by getting the best possible upgrades I can find for the best prices. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
The help and advice forum is a great resource to use, the people there have guided me through more than a few computer upgrades and hiccups.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I might need some help from you guys once the GoFundMe page has finished. I'm not good with shopping around for upgrades; I'm never certain what's going to work with my setup and what's the best value. I really want to make the most out of this generosity by getting the best possible upgrades I can find for the best prices. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Pcpartpicker.com is a great resource that checks compatibility and gives prices + reviews.
I was on that site daily when I built my own rig a few years back.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Yes.
Also I have a soft spot for funny, wheeling and dealing trickster gods.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Posts
Fuck you, Alliance Paladin.
Fuck you.
Whitemane is a well designed heroes with strengths and weaknesses. She excels at countering burst while struggling to keep up with poke damage. She was overtuned at release but after her nerfs she's down to 50% winrate on hots logs. The nerf to her Q talent at 4 really hurt and is probably the reason for it. She used to be able to do sustain healing by hitting Q twice and then letting her stacks fade but after the nerf she'll run dry if she tries that and can really only do single Q heals if she doesn't want to start teamfights with half mana. This means that she can't really infinitely sustain her team like a stukov/deckard/malf can and doesn't do well in a situation where those healers excel.
Previously if the enemy team drafted burst, you could either take reghar who is more of an all-around healer since his changes or uther who got nerfed into the ground a long time. Whitemane lets you have a chance of countering burst while playing a hero who is just as capable of making plays or winning fights as an assassin or tank.
Woah, hold on, that's a bit out of left field. Supports in DotA and LoL are defined as being playmakers; because they don't have the massive healing numbers of HotS supports they contribute by providing CC, cheap burst, and fight-swinging ults, which can all be very impactful.
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
Steam ID
Twitch Page
Yeah, the last TI position 4 and 5 (the least farmed heroes) were often MVPs.
Then retract my statements about Dota, I was just remembering the meta of LoL when I last played where it was becoming increasingly common to play mid-lane mages in the support role pushing out the dedicated support champions. It increasingly felt that the game was a 4v4 with an extra person on each team who's job was to buy wards and maybe use an CC ult in teamfights.
What Rain of Destruction would look like if it were actually Good™
(it's not real, in case that wasn't clear)
edit: whoa what the fuck happened to my "tm" why does it look so weird
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
I think that hits on a note about how I felt when I tried to play Dota. At the high tier level of competitive play, the support is a valuable member of the team. But at the casual level where you play with randoms, the support's job is to be a second class citizen whose job is to forfeit all of the XP so that others can have the glory, and to spend the majority of your meager pennies refreshing wards so that Mr moneybags carry can buy something outrageously expensive to make his epeen larger.
Armchair: 4098-3704-2012
Ah, but then there's the opportunity for you to be the clever and spiteful support that hoovers up all the XP and gold your teammates leave on the map because they're bad and carry them kicking and screaming to victory while smugly knowing you're the reason why you won despite them being the one with five rapiers as the enemy Ancient collapses.
I was a victim of the placement bug last season and it threw me down into gold. Since I'm doing NGS I decided I should probably plays some HL again so I can have an accurate MMR.
I'm just gonna put this out there - looking at this draft maybe there's a reason some of these people are sitting in gold.
Switch: 6589-6405-3399
That's the truth as far as the game is balanced, but it didn't help that the overall atmosphere from the quick-play community was of carries getting all the glory and generally claiming credit for success while supports were treated like shit, made to do the non-glamorous work, and were generally blamed for the failures.
That was my experience with DotA and LoL at least. Part of the reason that I prefer HotS is that there is no individual XP or gold to forfeit to the carries (who were often the more selfish jerk type players, and all too often they squandered the resources allocated to them).
Armchair: 4098-3704-2012
If that's draft order, the only truly onerous thing to me is a 5th pick Illidan into the rest of that comp. LiLi isn't a great pick either, but at least gets some value vs Fenix and chainstun-Muradin.
How did this match turn out? I'm genuinely curious, lol. Neither team has waveclear, on arguably the most waveclear-essential map in the game, although your team does have the Fenix, so he could potentially one-shot the enemy Zerg Rush with a Planet Cracker. Rexxar vs Fenix in the top lane's interesting, but I'm pretty sure Rexxar wins because (among other things) Fenix can't stand on the point indefinitely the way that Misha can. Even if the fight itself is really even, I don't think Fenix is capable of ever capturing the point unless he outright kills Rexxar. That leaves Garrosh, Muradin, Rehgar and Nazeebo in the bottom lane, meaning you have zero damage and no easy way to secure value from Garrosh throws. Having said that, their bottom lane kinda sucks, too. The right play for them is almost certainly to have Illidan focus on taking camps on cooldown while they three-man the lane. It's not like they hurt themselves much by doing so, because your team doesn't threaten much kill pressure, has no real means of threatening their structures even if they do have numbers-advantage and can push in, your team has zero waveclear to stop the mercs, and it isn't like Rexxar's ever going to lose objective progress up top to Fenix, anyway.
If Illidan plays it smart, I think Red Team can win. Having said that, he's a Bronze Illidan, so he almost certainly doesn't understand how to leverage the map to his team's advantage. Red Team's damage is a little low, and against Muradin / Fenix, who are both capable of tremendous self-healing if they just aren't pressured for a couple of seconds, and a Garrosh, who's just tanky as fuck in general, I think that's a big problem. They really have to win with proper map pressure. Blue Team, in comparison, lacks any true damage, and Naz will struggle to stack into the late game because he can't rotate for stacks on Braxxis. It's maybe not the worst idea in the world to actually trade Nazeebo to the top lane for Fenix. You'd never, ever have any possibility of winning top against Rexxar, but you probably weren't going to get it with Fenix, anyway, and at least Fenix is capable of dishing out the damage in the bottom lane. Blue's burden of execution is also much lower, I think: sure, they don't have a ton of ways to capitalize on a Garrosh pick opportunity, but it doesn't take much to kill an out-of-position Chromie or Illidan, and we're talking about Bronze Chromie and Illidan, so you can pretty safely bet they'll be consistently out of position.
If Red Team wins an objective post-10, though, and Fenix didn't take Planet Cracker, Blue's in deep fucking trouble. Especially if Arthas takes Sindy -- they'll take a Keep with any healthy Zerg wave and I don't think there's much, if anything, Blue can do about it.
Maybe, yeah. I dunno; it isn't great, no matter how you slice it.
https://gear.blizzard.com/us/fall-collection/heroes-of-the-storm-role-icon-long-sleeve-shirt
In the early game my team was a little uncoordinated and we had 2 deaths in the starting clash. After that we got settled and basically won every team fight and got to 100 on every objective. There was one unfortunate loss when we were 16 and split and the other team was 15, but they used the time to get boss so our Nazeebo and Fenix got our bruiser camp, defended, and it basically did nothing. They ignored one of our waves and got down to 17% core. Then they took another boss and got a fort, maybe. A team fight after that over their bruiser camp scored us some kills and we walked in and finished. We had a pretty good syncronization where I'd taunt and Fenix would planet cracker. They basically couldn't stop us (literally - unstoppable) from walking in to assault Chromie.
Switch: 6589-6405-3399
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
Let's talk about @milk ducks. He's been a great dude on the forums, been helpful in sharing tips/strats for heroes, and been a big help in tournament organization/streaming. Basically everything you want out of a PA member.
So a couple of days ago, I decided to create a GoFundMe page to help ducks buy a new PC. I created a secret group on b.net and invited some people from the HotS thread to see if they could chip in. I set our goal to $800, which I figured is enough for a solid, modern PC or at least a big chunk off the final price. As of this morning, we just passed $400 in donations! Amazing!
I'm going to keep the GoFundMe page open for a few more days in case anyone else wants to chip in. Since I can't post direct links on the forums, you'll have to PM me here or on B.Net for the link.
Once again, thanks to everyone who donated! You've all gone above and beyond once again. Makes me proud to be a member of this great community!
My only request is that when ducks gets everything up and running, that he starts streaming his HotS games in Ultra High graphics settings.
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
Steam ID
Twitch Page
Well consider our donations as either a rebate on the machine you just bought or as part upgrades. Can never have enough RAM or a nicer video card, right?
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
Steam ID
Twitch Page
The forums are a pretty great place of pretty great people.
I might need some help from you guys once the GoFundMe page has finished. I'm not good with shopping around for upgrades; I'm never certain what's going to work with my setup and what's the best value. I really want to make the most out of this generosity by getting the best possible upgrades I can find for the best prices. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
The help and advice forum is a great resource to use, the people there have guided me through more than a few computer upgrades and hiccups.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
Pcpartpicker.com is a great resource that checks compatibility and gives prices + reviews.
I was on that site daily when I built my own rig a few years back.
someone photoshop bwonsamdi
WoWtcg and general gaming podcast
WoWtcg and gaming website
Bwonsamdi is the best character that blizzard has done in years.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Also I have a soft spot for funny, wheeling and dealing trickster gods.
wait, so, was the cat alive or dead i didn't quite understand
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
Steam ID
Twitch Page
well, not explicitly