That sounds like he's talking about a starter deck, not the starter set as a whole. The quote is simply him acknowledging that no matter how good that they design the starter deck to be, the community at large will inevitably design something better once the game, its mechanics, and its cards are released into the wild. Just like how Magic's Future-future league tries to predict the best decks from the upcoming metagame when attempting to balance future sets, and they almost always miss the mark by a huge margin.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Yea all the but I have to pay money comments are amusing when the HS thread has finally admitted to ourselves that we end up spending 100-200 a year in order to actually play fun decks
I have no objection to cards costing money. I have objections to being asked to pay an upfront fee in order to pay more money to get cards.
I could care less. What matters to me is the quality of the gameplay and how engaging that it is. If the game is good, then I'll probably play it for some time and the upfront cost will be dwarfed over the years. If the game is crap, then I'll walk away. I've certainly lost far more than $20 on games that turned out to be crap before.
That sounds like he's talking about a starter deck, not the starter set as a whole. The quote is simply him acknowledging that no matter how good that they design the starter deck to be, the community at large will inevitably design something better once the game, its mechanics, and its cards are released into the wild. Just like how Magic's Future-future league tries to predict the best decks from the upcoming metagame when attempting to balance future sets, and they almost always miss the mark by a huge margin.
Except in this game you don't design decks? You just buy an entire deck and if it sucks, you're out $2 kek
I wonder if the secondary market will be selling decks or selling cards. Can you use a bunch of loose cards to make a different deck? If there are 82 quadrillion combinations of decks in the starter set and they're all known, and if you can purchase individual cards and assemble them into one of the options, how is this ultimately different from any other deck building game
That sounds like he's talking about a starter deck, not the starter set as a whole. The quote is simply him acknowledging that no matter how good that they design the starter deck to be, the community at large will inevitably design something better once the game, its mechanics, and its cards are released into the wild. Just like how Magic's Future-future league tries to predict the best decks from the upcoming metagame when attempting to balance future sets, and they almost always miss the mark by a huge margin.
Except in this game you don't design decks? You just buy an entire deck and if it sucks, you're out $2 kek
I wonder if the secondary market will be selling decks or selling cards. Can you use a bunch of loose cards to make a different deck? If there are 82 quadrillion combinations of decks in the starter set and they're all known, and if you can purchase individual cards and assemble them into one of the options, how is this ultimately different from any other deck building game
Ultimately, I don't think it is different from any other deck building game. The designer quote hints that they're including non-garbage cards in the starters, which is a nice change from MTG where starter decks are typically comprised exclusively of cards that are so underpowered as to force you to buy real cards to actually compete.
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KoopahTroopahThe koopas, the troopas.Philadelphia, PARegistered Userregular
That sounds like he's talking about a starter deck, not the starter set as a whole. The quote is simply him acknowledging that no matter how good that they design the starter deck to be, the community at large will inevitably design something better once the game, its mechanics, and its cards are released into the wild. Just like how Magic's Future-future league tries to predict the best decks from the upcoming metagame when attempting to balance future sets, and they almost always miss the mark by a huge margin.
Except in this game you don't design decks? You just buy an entire deck and if it sucks, you're out $2 kek
I think you read that second clarification wrong. It's $2 for a pack of 12 random cards, and you CAN build your own deck. You won't be buying new pre-made decks after the starter kit. Artifact will 100% be a deckbuilding game and I assume the aspect of deckbuilding will be very familiar in that you can only make decks from loose cards that you own. The hook in your mouth will be the three lane system, and how each card interacts with each other card on the battlefield in those three lanes. I believe that is the only real difference between this game and other deck-builders. That, and it is also painted in Dota lore.
I believe the market will be in single cards because greed and you could get more money off of single cards, but there's totally an argument for selling a complete deck for convenience. It could be neat if they allowed for both options.
Honestly, I'm okay with buying the upfront cost, I just would really like a way to earn packs 'for free currency' after that.
Yea I kinda completely forgot about not slowly getting free packs/currency might be a thing. Like if there are no bars to fill or story to get out of something, I kinda need something to show for my time spent playing in a weird twisted way.
Other big make or break is whatever match making structure they have, how long can I play against people who only payed $20 before I just end up against whales
I can't believe that they won't have some kind of prizes to compete over. Simple "you win" screens won't keep people, or their wallets, captivated for long.
Some Valve employees have stated in interviews that they don't want to do ranked matchmaking because that creates a race to the bottom where it's best to play decks that grind lots of wins in the shortest amount of time.
I believe they're testing an automated tournament system similar to what MTGO has with prizes and weekly events. They haven't announced anything official.
Card Rarities in Artifact
There are three rarity levels in the game: common, uncommon and rare.
Rare is the highest rarity level and every pack is guaranteed to contain at least one rare. It’s possible to open a pack with additional rares. There is not a “zero-dupe” guarantee, because duplicates of cards in packs are important to game modes like draft.
Basic Cards
A leaked screenshot of the deck builder showed four rarity filters which led to speculation about a fourth rarity level above rare.
The deck builder’s fourth rarity filter is called basic which covers a small number of cards that are owned by everyone (like Melee Creep or Town Portal Scroll). These are basic cards needed for the game to work. Basic cards aren’t found in packs and they can’t be sold on the marketplace.
All of the basic cards are included in the core game for free.
Glad to see there is no mythic rarity as most of the community thought, but instead it's a basic rarity with cards that everyone is given with access to the game.
Yeah we just had premades. There's definitely a lot to think about. In some ways it's Gwent-like in that there are reasons to pass early for the lane (gives you Initiative in the next lane) which could be important if you're trying to kill a hero asap so they can't play spells of that color there. In general, Left > Center > Right lanes because the ones on the left will always resolve first and as soon as you hit the victory condition you win. So it doesn't matter if you will win when the Right lane resolves if you're gonna lose in the first two lanes.
In the item shop, the middle deck of 9 Item cards are from deck-building so you should definitely put in items that will fit with your deck. Left is random and Right is Consumables.
Even if this is an amazing TCG I think Valve really has an uphill battle to fight here. Almost all the discussion I see around this game is dominated by negativity towards Valve and dismissiveness towards CCGs. I feel like this is a case of "wrong place, wrong time" - things might have been different if they had released it 2 years ago. Not only would it have been closer to the genre revival of Hearthstone, but also I think the fans hadn't quite turned on Valve and their development practices back then.
From where I'm standing, the negativity seems to be less aimed at the fact that it's a CCG game, and more has to do with the monetization model being crap, and their community management and tournament facilitation plans amounting to "we don't know and we don't care".
I can’t be the only one who thinks the “free-to-play” model patented by Hearthstone and other digital CCG’s is actually *worse* than this, can I?
Since those systems always seem to eliminate a big part of the experience: choice. What happens if you pay for a booster and pull a duplicate card in one of those that you can’t use? It disappears into a pitiful pittance of dust and disappointment. You have no choice in the matter, you basically took some real money and burned it. You can’t give that extra legendary to a friend who could actually use it, or your extra commons and uncommons to someone who’s just starting out.
I mean, I do understand why you can’t really do the free packs *and* have trading due to humans being garbage and will do botting and scripting tons of throw-away accounts to generate free cards to flood the market with.
I’m no friend to the random-booster model, but if I have to go in on it due to the game looking actually worth it (unlike Magic), I’d rather have the choice to do whatever I want with my cards.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
No, you're not the only one. I've been looking for a digital card game with this model for a while now. I got fed up with Hearthstone when I spent $60 on card packs and didn't get every card I needed for a single deck. Then i realized that happens every expansion. I don't think many people track how much they actually spend on that game.
I think this business model is far less exploitative than most free to play models.
I wonder if there will ever be a company that makes a card game without rarity, random packs and all the stuff designed to rob people.
I’ve never been able to play a CCG for these reasons and it’s a shame.
Honestly makes me wish I could code and had the time to draw every card myself (or that I was a billionaire and could hire people).
Even if this is an amazing TCG I think Valve really has an uphill battle to fight here. Almost all the discussion I see around this game is dominated by negativity towards Valve and dismissiveness towards CCGs. I feel like this is a case of "wrong place, wrong time" - things might have been different if they had released it 2 years ago. Not only would it have been closer to the genre revival of Hearthstone, but also I think the fans hadn't quite turned on Valve and their development practices back then.
From where I'm standing, the negativity seems to be less aimed at the fact that it's a CCG game, and more has to do with the monetization model being crap, and their community management and tournament facilitation plans amounting to "we don't know and we don't care".
How out-of-touch do you have to be to think this way in the year-of-our-lord 2018?
I mean, is this person saying they haven't got ANY ideas, or they haven't got any brand-spanking-new Year-of-our-Lord Twenty-Something Ideas? Because I wouldn't be surprised if they have some mixture of specific muting / general muting / reports-and-punishments features set up, seeing as that's the industry norm.
I'm just saying, just because they didn't know what to say doesn't mean they're total idiots.
honestly the dumbest quote isn't in those two tweets, it's the one where he says "we don't think people will be hostile because we find, pscyhologically, that people are only hostile if there's an audience" and doesn't stop to consider that maybe the audience would be the person they're talking to
honestly the dumbest quote isn't in those two tweets, it's the one where he says "we don't think people will be hostile because we find, pscyhologically, that people are only hostile if there's an audience" and doesn't stop to consider that maybe the audience would be the person they're talking to
I get what he's saying though. It might be naive, but obviously he's saying that - and I assume his reference to 'psychologically' is he's looked into this, though I don't know - people aren't generally nasty 1 on 1. And at least in theory I think that's kinda true. Not 100%, but certainly more true than in an XvX teamspeak environment. Even when I used to rage sometimes, I realise now that it was about raging in front of people who I hoped felt the same way. Winning them over and stuff. It's harder to be mean to one person, because they might just be mean right back. Or silent.
That said, there are plenty of people who are cowards, afraid of the audience, and I'm no scientist or omniscient god about these things.
I know, I know, but there are honest ways and other means. Like when a restaurant has a set price, and those that put nibbles and extras on the table without you asking and then putting on the bill.
You can’t compare buying say, Dark Souls, then the DLC that came later (if you want to at all), to a gacha game on a phone that requires pay to play because it’s on a timer, pay to win etc.
I wonder if there will ever be a company that makes a card game without rarity, random packs and all the stuff designed to rob people.
I’ve never been able to play a CCG for these reasons and it’s a shame.
Honestly makes me wish I could code and had the time to draw every card myself (or that I was a billionaire and could hire people).
I know, I know, but there are honest ways and other means. Like when a restaurant has a set price, and those that put nibbles and extras on the table without you asking and then putting on the bill.
You can’t compare buying say, Dark Souls, then the DLC that came later (if you want to at all), to a gacha game on a phone that requires pay to play because it’s on a timer, pay to win etc.
Entertainment is a luxury good/service. Their only ethical obligation is to make as much money as possible for shareholders, namely Gabe. Whether that means cheap prices to attract a large customer pool or expensive ones to rely on whales should be based around that goal.
I wonder if there will ever be a company that makes a card game without rarity, random packs and all the stuff designed to rob people.
I’ve never been able to play a CCG for these reasons and it’s a shame.
Honestly makes me wish I could code and had the time to draw every card myself (or that I was a billionaire and could hire people).
There are companies that sell games in non-random packs. Fantasy Flight Games, Sirlin Games, Plaid Hat Games to name a few.
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KoopahTroopahThe koopas, the troopas.Philadelphia, PARegistered Userregular
All chat is dumb, and not modding community toxicity is also dumb. Hopefully there will be an 'ignore all chat' option at least.
I get what he's saying though. It might be naive, but obviously he's saying that - and I assume his reference to 'psychologically' is he's looked into this, though I don't know - people aren't generally nasty 1 on 1.
I think every single post of fighting game salt disagrees with the idea that people aren't generally nasty 1 on 1 online. If anything, now that there can be one single person that is the entire focal point of their game experience, there is one single person that can be the focus of their negativity.
I wonder if there will ever be a company that makes a card game without rarity, random packs and all the stuff designed to rob people.
I’ve never been able to play a CCG for these reasons and it’s a shame.
Honestly makes me wish I could code and had the time to draw every card myself (or that I was a billionaire and could hire people).
There are companies that sell games in non-random packs. Fantasy Flight Games, Sirlin Games, Plaid Hat Games to name a few.
In particular, there's an entire model of card game called the "living card game" where when you buy a set, it contains the deck-maximum number of copies of every card in the game, and every expansion contains the deck-maximum number of copies of every card in the expansion. Fantasy Flight does this with Legend of the Five Rings and AEG does/did this with some other games, as well as some other games which aren't "traditional" games involving pre-constructed decks such as Dominion and its imitators do this as well. The concept of card rarity and needing to get random copies of cards doesn't exist. Some other games which aren't exactly card games but do involve randomly drawn pieces, such as Carcasonne, also do this. For funsies, you could buy more than one of the same expansion to add more of those pieces to the game, though you'd need to make house rules about them.
There is value to this scheme and it certainly does work for some games. It didn't work quite well enough for Doomtown, as evidenced by AEG dropping the game from continued development. Netrunner and Doomtown both existed like... decades ago as traditional CCGs, and were just relatively resurrected (and then in the case of Doomtown, killed again) as living card games. Netrunner seems to be doing ok, though!
There are a lot of these out there, so do google them and ask around! I am definitely not the authority on what's out there and what's good in the world of LCGs, but hopefully the folks elsewhere in this forum could gives you some better pointers.
There's been a bunch of previews dropped over the last few days. Let's see if we can get caught up with some of them.
I'm a little worried that the tweets appear to be explaining mechanics that aren't highlighted on the card. It feels important to make keyword type stuff pop a bit.
I wonder if there will ever be a company that makes a card game without rarity, random packs and all the stuff designed to rob people.
I’ve never been able to play a CCG for these reasons and it’s a shame.
Honestly makes me wish I could code and had the time to draw every card myself (or that I was a billionaire and could hire people).
You can just... print out your own cards. Put them in card sleeves in front of old Magic cards or whatever to give them the right thickness and feel. You don't need good art for playtesting. Just make your own card game. Nobody can stop you! You can even make it electronic via Tabletop Simulator!
Netrunner and Doomtown both existed like... decades ago as traditional CCGs, and were just relatively resurrected (and then in the case of Doomtown, killed again) as living card games. Netrunner seems to be doing ok, though!
The canceled new version of Doomtown was revived last year. And Netrunner was just canceled this summer because WotC wasn't playing nice with the license. I would have preferred the other way around!
According to people who have access to the beta, the phrase "Get Initiative" means that you will go first in the next lane. The podcasters yesterday were saying that this effect is so powerful that they don't imagine many decks will play without at least one card that gives initiative.
I feel like it's really weird to do reveals like this when practically none of the player base has access yet. Even if you know how the mechanics work, which they appear to be explaining as they go, we have no game sense yet.
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Armchair: 4098-3704-2012
I have no objection to cards costing money. I have objections to being asked to pay an upfront fee in order to pay more money to get cards.
Armchair: 4098-3704-2012
Except in this game you don't design decks? You just buy an entire deck and if it sucks, you're out $2 kek
I wonder if the secondary market will be selling decks or selling cards. Can you use a bunch of loose cards to make a different deck? If there are 82 quadrillion combinations of decks in the starter set and they're all known, and if you can purchase individual cards and assemble them into one of the options, how is this ultimately different from any other deck building game
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
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Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
Ultimately, I don't think it is different from any other deck building game. The designer quote hints that they're including non-garbage cards in the starters, which is a nice change from MTG where starter decks are typically comprised exclusively of cards that are so underpowered as to force you to buy real cards to actually compete.
I think you read that second clarification wrong. It's $2 for a pack of 12 random cards, and you CAN build your own deck. You won't be buying new pre-made decks after the starter kit. Artifact will 100% be a deckbuilding game and I assume the aspect of deckbuilding will be very familiar in that you can only make decks from loose cards that you own. The hook in your mouth will be the three lane system, and how each card interacts with each other card on the battlefield in those three lanes. I believe that is the only real difference between this game and other deck-builders. That, and it is also painted in Dota lore.
I believe the market will be in single cards because greed and you could get more money off of single cards, but there's totally an argument for selling a complete deck for convenience. It could be neat if they allowed for both options.
Honestly, I'm okay with buying the upfront cost, I just would really like a way to earn packs 'for free currency' after that.
Twitch: KoopahTroopah - Steam: Koopah
Other big make or break is whatever match making structure they have, how long can I play against people who only payed $20 before I just end up against whales
Armchair: 4098-3704-2012
I believe they're testing an automated tournament system similar to what MTGO has with prizes and weekly events. They haven't announced anything official.
Glad to see there is no mythic rarity as most of the community thought, but instead it's a basic rarity with cards that everyone is given with access to the game.
Also the official Artifact Twitter account confirming that the PAX West keys will grant beta as well:
Artifact is currently at PAX West and they will be streaming on steam.tv live today starting at 10 AM pacific!
Edit: Oh and if anyone happens to get a beta key from PAX that they won't be using, PM me and let's talk.
Coverage from one of the live streams for those of us who missed them.
Nintendo ID: Incindium
PSN: IncindiumX
Switch: US 1651-2551-4335 JP 6310-4664-2624
MH3U Monster Cheat Sheet / MH3U Veggie Elder Ticket Guide
In the item shop, the middle deck of 9 Item cards are from deck-building so you should definitely put in items that will fit with your deck. Left is random and Right is Consumables.
Switch: US 1651-2551-4335 JP 6310-4664-2624
MH3U Monster Cheat Sheet / MH3U Veggie Elder Ticket Guide
From where I'm standing, the negativity seems to be less aimed at the fact that it's a CCG game, and more has to do with the monetization model being crap, and their community management and tournament facilitation plans amounting to "we don't know and we don't care".
Edit: I mean, take a look:
How out-of-touch do you have to be to think this way in the year-of-our-lord 2018?
Steam: pazython
Since those systems always seem to eliminate a big part of the experience: choice. What happens if you pay for a booster and pull a duplicate card in one of those that you can’t use? It disappears into a pitiful pittance of dust and disappointment. You have no choice in the matter, you basically took some real money and burned it. You can’t give that extra legendary to a friend who could actually use it, or your extra commons and uncommons to someone who’s just starting out.
I mean, I do understand why you can’t really do the free packs *and* have trading due to humans being garbage and will do botting and scripting tons of throw-away accounts to generate free cards to flood the market with.
I’m no friend to the random-booster model, but if I have to go in on it due to the game looking actually worth it (unlike Magic), I’d rather have the choice to do whatever I want with my cards.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
I think this business model is far less exploitative than most free to play models.
I’ve never been able to play a CCG for these reasons and it’s a shame.
Honestly makes me wish I could code and had the time to draw every card myself (or that I was a billionaire and could hire people).
I mean, is this person saying they haven't got ANY ideas, or they haven't got any brand-spanking-new Year-of-our-Lord Twenty-Something Ideas? Because I wouldn't be surprised if they have some mixture of specific muting / general muting / reports-and-punishments features set up, seeing as that's the industry norm.
I'm just saying, just because they didn't know what to say doesn't mean they're total idiots.
hAmmONd IsnT A mAin TAnk
I get what he's saying though. It might be naive, but obviously he's saying that - and I assume his reference to 'psychologically' is he's looked into this, though I don't know - people aren't generally nasty 1 on 1. And at least in theory I think that's kinda true. Not 100%, but certainly more true than in an XvX teamspeak environment. Even when I used to rage sometimes, I realise now that it was about raging in front of people who I hoped felt the same way. Winning them over and stuff. It's harder to be mean to one person, because they might just be mean right back. Or silent.
That said, there are plenty of people who are cowards, afraid of the audience, and I'm no scientist or omniscient god about these things.
hAmmONd IsnT A mAin TAnk
You can’t compare buying say, Dark Souls, then the DLC that came later (if you want to at all), to a gacha game on a phone that requires pay to play because it’s on a timer, pay to win etc.
Bicycle?
Steam: pazython
Entertainment is a luxury good/service. Their only ethical obligation is to make as much money as possible for shareholders, namely Gabe. Whether that means cheap prices to attract a large customer pool or expensive ones to rely on whales should be based around that goal.
There are companies that sell games in non-random packs. Fantasy Flight Games, Sirlin Games, Plaid Hat Games to name a few.
Twitch: KoopahTroopah - Steam: Koopah
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
Suck it WotC! Regenerate rides again!
Armchair: 4098-3704-2012
Seems very strong. I like that it can be used offensively and defensively (to kill an enemy red hero, for example).
I think every single post of fighting game salt disagrees with the idea that people aren't generally nasty 1 on 1 online. If anything, now that there can be one single person that is the entire focal point of their game experience, there is one single person that can be the focus of their negativity.
In particular, there's an entire model of card game called the "living card game" where when you buy a set, it contains the deck-maximum number of copies of every card in the game, and every expansion contains the deck-maximum number of copies of every card in the expansion. Fantasy Flight does this with Legend of the Five Rings and AEG does/did this with some other games, as well as some other games which aren't "traditional" games involving pre-constructed decks such as Dominion and its imitators do this as well. The concept of card rarity and needing to get random copies of cards doesn't exist. Some other games which aren't exactly card games but do involve randomly drawn pieces, such as Carcasonne, also do this. For funsies, you could buy more than one of the same expansion to add more of those pieces to the game, though you'd need to make house rules about them.
There is value to this scheme and it certainly does work for some games. It didn't work quite well enough for Doomtown, as evidenced by AEG dropping the game from continued development. Netrunner and Doomtown both existed like... decades ago as traditional CCGs, and were just relatively resurrected (and then in the case of Doomtown, killed again) as living card games. Netrunner seems to be doing ok, though!
There are a lot of these out there, so do google them and ask around! I am definitely not the authority on what's out there and what's good in the world of LCGs, but hopefully the folks elsewhere in this forum could gives you some better pointers.
I'm a little worried that the tweets appear to be explaining mechanics that aren't highlighted on the card. It feels important to make keyword type stuff pop a bit.
You can just... print out your own cards. Put them in card sleeves in front of old Magic cards or whatever to give them the right thickness and feel. You don't need good art for playtesting. Just make your own card game. Nobody can stop you! You can even make it electronic via Tabletop Simulator!
The canceled new version of Doomtown was revived last year. And Netrunner was just canceled this summer because WotC wasn't playing nice with the license. I would have preferred the other way around!
According to people who have access to the beta, the phrase "Get Initiative" means that you will go first in the next lane. The podcasters yesterday were saying that this effect is so powerful that they don't imagine many decks will play without at least one card that gives initiative.
I really like the design of gank! Looks like a fun card that a lot of black decks will include.