"You can only use command points generated by a faction on that faction's stratagems" feels like the neatest, least punishing solution to the soup problem that I've seen so far.
Factions that drown in CP (like Guard) were balanced with weak stratagems. Factions that have amazing stratagems (like Custodes, Knights and BA) were given minimal CP. Somewhere a designer forgot that you could run both in the same army with no negative consequences.
that still basically removes custodes from the competitive scene
Custodes as a main force are not winning right now anyway.
It is guard+some custodes+knights or guard+BA smash captains+knights.
Probably will be a guard+SW runecasters+knight army soon as well.
They need a rebalancing across all armies right now with some shifts on how they work. Because right now it has moved to a very focused meta of guard+fast cc characters+knights as a baseline. I think FLG is calling it the doom list or something similar. Its not unbeatable. But overall it is very hard to beat because it covers every single aspect you need in an army.
Firepower, close combat, and bodies.
Edit:
Nova top 10:
1 Knights/CP Farm/Assault Element
2 Knights/CP Farm/Assault Element
3 Ynnari
4 Knights/CP Farm/Assault Element
5 Thousand Sons
6 Knights/CP Farm/Assault Element
7 Adeptus Custodes
8 Drukhari
9 Blood Angels
10 Harlequinns
Pretty sure the BA list and the AC list had a guard element as well. TSons I know had Morty and Magnus, abused a lot of character rules, and daemons for fodder.
Eldar as a mixed list are just mean and Drukhari with Agents of Vect are the counter list to a lot of things.
A full 20% of the lists at NOVA were apparently the Knights/CP Farm/Assault Element list (with the percentage increasing as you look at higher ranked players). For a game with as many factions as this, that is shocking.
From my understanding listening to folks who played 7th it is the new deathstar from the end of that edition.
I am not 100% sure what that means but this list is dominating. Is rather easy to build out verse a lot of different lists. And more straight forward to play. And also is actually pretty fluffy when you think about it. Though to quote the commentators, "The Blood Angels are awfully nice making all those captains and loaning them to everyone!"
From my understanding listening to folks who played 7th it is the new deathstar from the end of that edition.
I am not 100% sure what that means but this list is dominating. Is rather easy to build out verse a lot of different lists. And more straight forward to play. And also is actually pretty fluffy when you think about it. Though to quote the commentators, "The Blood Angels are awfully nice making all those captains and loaning them to everyone!"
So by deathstar they mean “We can’t repeal firepower of that magnitude!”
In esscence they mean any combination of powers that is essentially “unbeatable” (whether or not said thing is unbeatable is up for debate).
From my understanding listening to folks who played 7th it is the new deathstar from the end of that edition.
I am not 100% sure what that means but this list is dominating. Is rather easy to build out verse a lot of different lists. And more straight forward to play. And also is actually pretty fluffy when you think about it. Though to quote the commentators, "The Blood Angels are awfully nice making all those captains and loaning them to everyone!"
So by deathstar they mean “We can’t repeal firepower of that magnitude!”
In esscence they mean any combination of powers that is essentially “unbeatable” (whether or not said thing is unbeatable is up for debate).
I guess? Sounds like a ball of termis or something walking down the board with permanent 2++ or something.
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
Yeah, the traditional 7e deathstar consisted of several tooled up characters with a tough bodyguard all protected by the (frankly, totally broken) Invisibility power. Dark Angels were especially good at it, between the Deathwing Knights and Azrael’s shield bubble, but basically every army could do something like it. Eldar, for example, had jetbike Seer Councils hopped up on Guide, Fortune, and Doom zooming around.
The point being to put all your eggs in an armoured basket with auto-turrets, leaving your opposition with nothing to do except bash their heads against the unbreakable wall while it slowly rolled over them.
Yea the balance is actually more lopsided than that table makes it appear, despite being labeled Drukhari, Harlequins and Ynnari all three of those Eldar lists featured heavy use of Dark Eldar, they all had the hard to kill objective campers and two of the three had the triple ravagers with triple disintegrators.
And yes, both the BA and Custodes guy had huge guard elements, so of the top 10 lists Dark Eldar a key component in 3/10, Imperial Guard a key component in at least 4/10 top ten lists and IMO 6/10 lists. The Chaos list of course had a ton of cultists and Tzaangors and 5 characters.
Most people are looking at this and saying CP sharing needs to be nerfed but I feel this is a pretty strong condemnation of the current AP system. Gut the CP sharing and IMO it'll be the same list but Baneblade variants instead of Knights. BA detachment brings 5 points for itself so it'll stay. Dark Eldar and Chaos unaffected.
When I look at these lists what I see they have in common is that none of them relied on an armor save as a defense.
Lanlaorn on
0
PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
Yea the balance is actually more lopsided than that table makes it appear, despite being labeled Drukhari, Harlequins and Ynnari all three of those Eldar lists featured heavy use of Dark Eldar, they all had the hard to kill objective campers and two of the three had the triple ravagers with triple disintegrators.
And yes, both the BA and Custodes guy had huge guard elements, so of the top 10 lists Dark Eldar a key component in 3/10, Imperial Guard a key component in at least 4/10 top ten lists and IMO 6/10 lists. The Chaos list of course had a ton of cultists and Tzaangors and 5 characters.
Most people are looking at this and saying CP sharing needs to be nerfed but I feel this is a pretty strong condemnation of the current AP system. Gut the CP sharing and IMO it'll be the same list but Baneblade variants instead of Knights. BA detachment brings 5 points for itself so it'll stay. Dark Eldar and Chaos unaffected.
When I look at these lists what I see they have in common is that none of them relied on an armor save as a defense.
they are predominately reliant on extremely efficient vehicles or drowning the opponent in shots or lots of psychic tests
nerfing cp sharing doesn't really change the issue of horde armies with effective vehicles or rapid movement and really only hurts armies that need those strategems
slamguinis and culuxeus are effective because the armies that employ them most have major difficulty dealing with what those are very good at dealing with otherwise
Assuming the current meta isn’t nerfed into the ground in the next FAQ, I wonder if an updated Genestealer Cult codex would work well against them. Strong turn 1 deepstriking horde army with good anti psyker defense.
Assuming the current meta isn’t nerfed into the ground in the next FAQ, I wonder if an updated Genestealer Cult codex would work well against them. Strong turn 1 deepstriking horde army with good anti psyker defense.
I think there was a GSC/Nid list in the top 16 using GSC magus for mind control to fuck with knights.
"You can only use command points generated by a faction on that faction's stratagems" feels like the neatest, least punishing solution to the soup problem that I've seen so far.
Factions that drown in CP (like Guard) were balanced with weak stratagems. Factions that have amazing stratagems (like Custodes, Knights and BA) were given minimal CP. Somewhere a designer forgot that you could run both in the same army with no negative consequences.
that still basically removes custodes from the competitive scene
Basically I feel the competitive scene is a mess from what I once knew it as to how it's now a bigger headache
I would love to try to play the custodes in kill team like that genestealer cult on Terra or just two custodes to take out a certain cult leader while the battle rages around them
0
StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
Assuming the current meta isn’t nerfed into the ground in the next FAQ, I wonder if an updated Genestealer Cult codex would work well against them. Strong turn 1 deepstriking horde army with good anti psyker defense.
I think there was a GSC/Nid list in the top 16 using GSC magus for mind control to fuck with knights.
I wanted to use an Inquisitor for the same thing, with their Dominate power, but then I realized most of these armies just don't have another target for the Knight to shoot it's crazy anti-titan gun at. It's the Knight, then a lot of infantry squads and characters hidden in those squads.
So assuming you get close enough and pass your psychic test you get to kill a 40 point infantry squad rather than the dream of having one knight shoot another in the back.
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StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
Assuming the current meta isn’t nerfed into the ground in the next FAQ, I wonder if an updated Genestealer Cult codex would work well against them. Strong turn 1 deepstriking horde army with good anti psyker defense.
I think there was a GSC/Nid list in the top 16 using GSC magus for mind control to fuck with knights.
I wanted to use an Inquisitor for the same thing, with their Dominate power, but then I realized most of these armies just don't have another target for the Knight to shoot it's crazy anti-titan gun at. It's the Knight, then a lot of infantry squads and characters hidden in those squads.
So assuming you get close enough and pass your psychic test you get to kill a 40 point infantry squad rather than the dream of having one knight shoot another in the back.
There’s a tzeentch power that does the same, but there’s never a good oppertunity
I wonder, if you take control of a legal unit can you use appropriate strategems on them, so if take a unit of cultists, can I VTOLW?
Dark Eldar are definitely too strong currently but there are really only a few elements of their list that are making them that way - Disintegrator Cannons, Ravagers, Wracks, Grotesques and Agents of Vect. Maybe Venoms and Kabalites (although they're suffering at the moment because they're weak against the Imperial Soup list of Doom).
Tone those down and Dark Eldar are fine. I actually want them to get nerfed because I honestly feel bad playing them right now. But - importantly - they don't require a retooling of the game's systems, in the same way that the Imperial Soup list seems to.
Dark Eldar are definitely too strong currently but there are really only a few elements of their list that are making them that way - Disintegrator Cannons, Ravagers, Wracks, Grotesques and Agents of Vect. Maybe Venoms and Kabalites (although they're suffering at the moment because they're weak against the Imperial Soup list of Doom).
Tone those down and Dark Eldar are fine. I actually want them to get nerfed because I honestly feel bad playing them right now. But - importantly - they don't require a retooling of the game's systems, in the same way that the Imperial Soup list seems to.
Dark Eldar feels just like pointing issues, some tweaks here and there.
Imperial soup is a design flaw. It feels like they thought people would stick with mono faction mainly, rather than play a mixed list. It comes up too often with wonky strategems (see deamons) and the like not to be the case.
GSC abuse the ambush which is why I think it works really good for their psykers.
Even with the current death list, unlike the old days of it being years for balance changes, it is months now. Which is nice.
0
StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
So all the stuff on the Grey Hunter sprue in the Space Wolves start collecting box I bought are basically stuff to kit out torsos for my Thunderwolves that I'm going to magnetize. I really want to finish up and glue the legs to the saddle and glue the saddle to the wolves but I feel like that will make it weird to paint.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
If thunderwolves are anything like bikes, you probably don’t want to glue those marines to the wolves. Get some bluetac and stick them on for gaming in the meantime, but it’ll just be a pain later to paint.
Imperial Soup is not the problem, Imperial Guard is.
The super strong list is Guards + Knight + BA or Custodes. Which element, if removed, make it suck? Does anyone think I have a monster list if I play Custodes + Knight? Blood Angels + Custodes?
You all would give me the same advice, "get some screens, some chaff units"
And I'm not even saying Imperial Guard as a faction is a problem, the design that makes Guardsmen so strong is baked into the math of the edition. We need to overhaul AP and add some more wounds unto all types of elite units. Or we can appropriately cost the value of a 2+ and 3+ save and have hordes of Marines that cost little more than a Guardsman, but that doesn't seem thematically appropriate.
Invulns, penalty to hit and FNP are the only defenses that really matter, so either play Chaos or Eldar to have them or play something that doesn't waste points paying for any useless defenses.
Thing is, Knights and BA Smash Captains are only really scary when you have the tons and tons of command points that an IG battery give you. That Smash Captain nova that can potentially kill a knight in one turn? It’s like 7 or 8 command points to do. My pure Knight army has 9 command points, 7 after the extra heirloom and extra warlord trait stratagems. It costs 3 cp to rotate Ion shields for a Dominus Knight (which is what gives it the 3+ invulnerable save for a turn if it’s got the Ion Bulwark warlord trait). Which means I can do it twice a game and have 1 cp left over.
So to me the problem mainly steams from armies that were designed to be very light on cp are able to spend less than 200 points and get +5 cp and a 5+ cp regen.
I don't think there's a single thing you can point to as the problem with the list - the reason that it works so well is because it's taking advantage of so many strong elements. Almost everything in it is heavily undercosted, the elite factions get to take advantage of the Guard's ridiculous CP generation, you've got an almost perfect mix of cheap chaff, melee damage and ranged firepower.
It's basically the ultimate take all comers list which can practically fight heavily specialised lists in their speciality and still come out on top.
I think the AP system is fine but certain armies need a buff verse certain weapon types.
I am still think All is Dust style bonus to all power armor (+1 save verse 1 damage weapons) or a ignores all -1 ap would be what you need to keep marines at the current price but have that 3+ mean something.
What kills marines the best though are things that always did: Plasma, high rates of fire (3+ verse 40 guard shots wasn't that good anyway), battlecannons/big guns.
The one thing that is messing with them more now than before are the -1 AP guns like ACs/Primaris bolters and so on. Ignoring the -1 ap would correct that and would be thematic.
The 4s 4t 3+ statline is still decent it is just people are bringing weapons that remove it and everything else right now.
Reducing marines to sub 10 points I think would also be silly. 11 points from my time with my CSM heavy lists feels right.
I don't want to reduce the points of Space Marines at all, I'd prefer they stay elite, but saying "the statline is fine, it's just completely destroyed by all the weapons people bring" isn't very reasonable. I agree that ignoring the first point of AP is critical, but this is what I mean by fixing the AP system. I'd go even further and give all marines an extra wound, 2 for a Tac Marine, 3 for Primaris and Terminators. Or some kind of Feel No Pain roll or higher Toughness - something, anything so that the math works out so that equal points of Guardsmen, Tac Marines, Custodes Guard, Grey Knight Terminators, Death Watch Veterans, Scouts, etc. have reasonably similar survival and damage output.
They can have intentionally designed differences where one is better in a certain way and weaker in another, but not the current situation where the Cultists or Guardsmen are more durable, output more damage, cover more ground, are more mobile, just better and more versatile in every way thanks to their statline and having access to traits, orders and strategems that don't cost any points. The ability to deepstrike is clearly paid for in the points cost of a Crisis Suit or GK Terminator, but the ultra cheap unit can do it for free with a strategem and is more durable, too?
Consider this list again. You all say it's the perfect balance of the forces, or providing CP to the BA or Knight. BTW, I find the theory that elite factions are intentionally CP starved to be extremely generous to the designers, lol - but consider this:
- I remove Knights from the game, the entire faction -> IMO the list shifts to using Baneblade chasis models and buffing them with Guard tools, +1 save and -1 to hit psychic powers, +1 BS Vostroyan or hide in reserves Tallarn strategems and whatever the optimal traits work out to be and continues to be strong.
- I remove BA and Custodes from the game, the entire faction -> IMO the list shifts to units of Bullgryns or Ogryn/Bullgryn characters with 2++ saves and Priests for attack auras, etc. and continues to be strong
- I remove Conscripts and Infantry Squads from the game, just those two units, replace them with say Death Watch Veternas as the IG troop choice -> IMO the list falls stops being competitive, no screens, no durable troops, no cheap CPs
Similarly consider the sole Chaos list in the top 10. Magnus + Mortarion + Ahriman + Demon Prince + mass Cultists & Tzaangors. Remove any one character and the list is weaker, sure, but could be replaced with something and still be good, if not as good. Remove the chaff units and replace them with equal points of, I don't know, Plague Marines and I think we all agree that suddenly you're bringing "too few bodies" and need "boys over toys"
All three Eldar factions took the same super-durable Dark Eldar freak show units, look at what makes them durable, it ain't a strong armor save, lol.
So my position is simply this:
- What makes a unit durable is terribly imbalanced (anything paying for a strong armor save is disadvantaged)
- How CPs are generated is terribly imbalanced (whoever has the cheapest troops and HQs wins)
- The previous two conditions overlap to make certain units disproportionately important, and we all know what they are.
My proposed changes are some kind of broad buffs to elite survival so that having 5 Tac Marines hold a point is as good as having 2 Infantry Squads hold that point and changing CP to something similar to Kill Team or Age of Sigmar 2E.
I am full on board with changing CP to a KT/AoS 2.0 style system.
I think that alone would fix a lot of problems. Each detachment you bring gives you an extra CP a turn at minimum. You always get 1 cp per turn. Bigger detachments like brigades can be 2 cp a turn or something.
Standardize the regain CP trait to a general use trait for all armies. Only regens 1 cp per stratagem. Give all armies with the trait a new trait to replace it.
I wouldn't even give Brigades a bonus, don't see a point in rewarding Guard for having the cheapest units, otherwise I completely agree. Standardize the CP income and you can truly balance strategem costs.
I wouldn't even give Brigades a bonus, don't see a point in rewarding Guard for having the cheapest units, otherwise I completely agree. Standardize the CP income and you can truly balance strategem costs.
At that point what is the point of having different detachments?
Why should I pay for an extra HQ to bring troops unit? Why would anyone pay for a Brigade when you can get the same thing with more CP with different detachments?
I'm not sure why Battalions and Brigades should be encouraged over the other detachments, but we could have each detachment give some other kind of bonus, anything but CP. Maybe codex specific like Age of Sigmar does it? Could write these in for all existing books in Chapter Approved, where a change of this scale would need to come in anyway?
"You can only use command points generated by a faction on that faction's stratagems" feels like the neatest, least punishing solution to the soup problem that I've seen so far.
Factions that drown in CP (like Guard) were balanced with weak stratagems. Factions that have amazing stratagems (like Custodes, Knights and BA) were given minimal CP. Somewhere a designer forgot that you could run both in the same army with no negative consequences.
Also the way the Starstriders and Gellerpox mutants work I think too from what people have said.
House Raven strat is also almost definitely going to be once per game only too - and probably 3CP too.
So that really fluffy list I’m bringing to a local tournament I posted here, I played two games today with it.
First was against multiple knights, guard battalion and all that noise, second was against mixed imperials but with the cawl robot/plasma servitors gunline. (And some marines for smash captains and msu tacs with heavy bolters? I’m guessing for hellfire shells, didn’t come up though)
I won both easily. I’m a little shocked.
My plague marines just didn’t die. The guard blobs these lists bring couldn’t kill them in cover (I lost seven total over both games).
In my first game the combined firepower of the knights couldn’t kill mortarion and he killed two on his own before being taken down. The PBC/predator artillery group killed the third.
In my second game his opening salvo failed to kill the PBC he targeted and I was able to get Morty into his lines. The possed single handily rolled up the right flank killing five units of infantry on thier own. I was putting +1 str/tough on them (and votlw if needed) and it turns out reroll all misses wounding on 2’s ap-1 attacks will shred guardsmen, marines and ad mech domini alike. Having CP to reroll the attacks is vital though.
So that really fluffy list I’m bringing to a local tournament I posted here, I played two games today with it.
First was against multiple knights, guard battalion and all that noise, second was against mixed imperials but with the cawl robot/plasma servitors gunline. (And some marines for smash captains and msu tacs with heavy bolters? I’m guessing for hellfire shells, didn’t come up though)
I won both easily. I’m a little shocked.
My plague marines just didn’t die. The guard blobs these lists bring couldn’t kill them in cover (I lost seven total over both games).
In my first game the combined firepower of the knights couldn’t kill mortarion and he killed two on his own before being taken down. The PBC/predator artillery group killed the third.
In my second game his opening salvo failed to kill the PBC he targeted and I was able to get Morty into his lines. The possed single handily rolled up the right flank killing five units of infantry on thier own. I was putting +1 str/tough on them (and votlw if needed) and it turns out reroll all misses wounding on 2’s ap-1 attacks will shred guardsmen, marines and ad mech domini alike. Having CP to reroll the attacks is vital though.
7 losses for two victories? Surely you are blessed by Father Nurgle
Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
+3
StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
edited September 2018
Death Guard being crazy hard to kill is the reason I get mad at my brother when he complains about me getting a shit ton of successful wounds against any of his Death Guard models with the 5+ FNP and wants to just give up. It is so annoying.
52 wounds against a drone that has a 3+ and a 5+ FNP. It took 4 wounds. I had no -AP on any of the shots. He wanted to just pull the drone from the field without rolling saves.
Edit: Are the Thunderwolves shields really weird to put on or am I dumb? It looks like I glue them to the back of the hand but it has that nubbly bit sticking out from the center of the shields.
Stragint on
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Edit: Are the Thunderwolves shields really weird to put on or am I dumb? It looks like I glue them to the back of the hand but it has that nubbly bit sticking out from the center of the shields.
I had the same problem. If there is a way they are supposed to go on I never figured it out. Eventually I just glued them to the hand. It doesn’t look quite right but it’s close enough for me to live with.
+1
StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
Edit: Are the Thunderwolves shields really weird to put on or am I dumb? It looks like I glue them to the back of the hand but it has that nubbly bit sticking out from the center of the shields.
I had the same problem. If there is a way they are supposed to go on I never figured it out. Eventually I just glued them to the hand. It doesn’t look quite right but it’s close enough for me to live with.
I did the same thing. If it is right then it is super weird.
So I decided to build my land speeders finally and I realized that I do not have instructions. I bought them second hand from someone at the LGS like 6 years ago. Not really sure where this all goes.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
The internet provideth.
I occasionally order complex vehicle bits without instructions, but usually just googling "warhammer X KIT instructions" will get you a reddit post or something with a scan.
Posts
Custodes as a main force are not winning right now anyway.
It is guard+some custodes+knights or guard+BA smash captains+knights.
Probably will be a guard+SW runecasters+knight army soon as well.
They need a rebalancing across all armies right now with some shifts on how they work. Because right now it has moved to a very focused meta of guard+fast cc characters+knights as a baseline. I think FLG is calling it the doom list or something similar. Its not unbeatable. But overall it is very hard to beat because it covers every single aspect you need in an army.
Firepower, close combat, and bodies.
Edit:
Nova top 10:
2 Knights/CP Farm/Assault Element
3 Ynnari
4 Knights/CP Farm/Assault Element
5 Thousand Sons
6 Knights/CP Farm/Assault Element
7 Adeptus Custodes
8 Drukhari
9 Blood Angels
10 Harlequinns
Pretty sure the BA list and the AC list had a guard element as well. TSons I know had Morty and Magnus, abused a lot of character rules, and daemons for fodder.
Eldar as a mixed list are just mean and Drukhari with Agents of Vect are the counter list to a lot of things.
I am not 100% sure what that means but this list is dominating. Is rather easy to build out verse a lot of different lists. And more straight forward to play. And also is actually pretty fluffy when you think about it. Though to quote the commentators, "The Blood Angels are awfully nice making all those captains and loaning them to everyone!"
So by deathstar they mean “We can’t repeal firepower of that magnitude!”
In esscence they mean any combination of powers that is essentially “unbeatable” (whether or not said thing is unbeatable is up for debate).
I guess? Sounds like a ball of termis or something walking down the board with permanent 2++ or something.
The point being to put all your eggs in an armoured basket with auto-turrets, leaving your opposition with nothing to do except bash their heads against the unbreakable wall while it slowly rolled over them.
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And yes, both the BA and Custodes guy had huge guard elements, so of the top 10 lists Dark Eldar a key component in 3/10, Imperial Guard a key component in at least 4/10 top ten lists and IMO 6/10 lists. The Chaos list of course had a ton of cultists and Tzaangors and 5 characters.
Most people are looking at this and saying CP sharing needs to be nerfed but I feel this is a pretty strong condemnation of the current AP system. Gut the CP sharing and IMO it'll be the same list but Baneblade variants instead of Knights. BA detachment brings 5 points for itself so it'll stay. Dark Eldar and Chaos unaffected.
When I look at these lists what I see they have in common is that none of them relied on an armor save as a defense.
they are predominately reliant on extremely efficient vehicles or drowning the opponent in shots or lots of psychic tests
nerfing cp sharing doesn't really change the issue of horde armies with effective vehicles or rapid movement and really only hurts armies that need those strategems
slamguinis and culuxeus are effective because the armies that employ them most have major difficulty dealing with what those are very good at dealing with otherwise
I think there was a GSC/Nid list in the top 16 using GSC magus for mind control to fuck with knights.
Basically I feel the competitive scene is a mess from what I once knew it as to how it's now a bigger headache
I would love to try to play the custodes in kill team like that genestealer cult on Terra or just two custodes to take out a certain cult leader while the battle rages around them
Why didn't he use the beaky one?
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
I wanted to use an Inquisitor for the same thing, with their Dominate power, but then I realized most of these armies just don't have another target for the Knight to shoot it's crazy anti-titan gun at. It's the Knight, then a lot of infantry squads and characters hidden in those squads.
So assuming you get close enough and pass your psychic test you get to kill a 40 point infantry squad rather than the dream of having one knight shoot another in the back.
Oh, I forgot it had that. I remember now that I needed to cut that off once to hey the head to fit properly on a Primaris Intercessor.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
There’s a tzeentch power that does the same, but there’s never a good oppertunity
I wonder, if you take control of a legal unit can you use appropriate strategems on them, so if take a unit of cultists, can I VTOLW?
Tone those down and Dark Eldar are fine. I actually want them to get nerfed because I honestly feel bad playing them right now. But - importantly - they don't require a retooling of the game's systems, in the same way that the Imperial Soup list seems to.
Dark Eldar feels just like pointing issues, some tweaks here and there.
Imperial soup is a design flaw. It feels like they thought people would stick with mono faction mainly, rather than play a mixed list. It comes up too often with wonky strategems (see deamons) and the like not to be the case.
Even with the current death list, unlike the old days of it being years for balance changes, it is months now. Which is nice.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
The super strong list is Guards + Knight + BA or Custodes. Which element, if removed, make it suck? Does anyone think I have a monster list if I play Custodes + Knight? Blood Angels + Custodes?
You all would give me the same advice, "get some screens, some chaff units"
And I'm not even saying Imperial Guard as a faction is a problem, the design that makes Guardsmen so strong is baked into the math of the edition. We need to overhaul AP and add some more wounds unto all types of elite units. Or we can appropriately cost the value of a 2+ and 3+ save and have hordes of Marines that cost little more than a Guardsman, but that doesn't seem thematically appropriate.
Invulns, penalty to hit and FNP are the only defenses that really matter, so either play Chaos or Eldar to have them or play something that doesn't waste points paying for any useless defenses.
So to me the problem mainly steams from armies that were designed to be very light on cp are able to spend less than 200 points and get +5 cp and a 5+ cp regen.
It's basically the ultimate take all comers list which can practically fight heavily specialised lists in their speciality and still come out on top.
I am still think All is Dust style bonus to all power armor (+1 save verse 1 damage weapons) or a ignores all -1 ap would be what you need to keep marines at the current price but have that 3+ mean something.
What kills marines the best though are things that always did: Plasma, high rates of fire (3+ verse 40 guard shots wasn't that good anyway), battlecannons/big guns.
The one thing that is messing with them more now than before are the -1 AP guns like ACs/Primaris bolters and so on. Ignoring the -1 ap would correct that and would be thematic.
The 4s 4t 3+ statline is still decent it is just people are bringing weapons that remove it and everything else right now.
Reducing marines to sub 10 points I think would also be silly. 11 points from my time with my CSM heavy lists feels right.
They can have intentionally designed differences where one is better in a certain way and weaker in another, but not the current situation where the Cultists or Guardsmen are more durable, output more damage, cover more ground, are more mobile, just better and more versatile in every way thanks to their statline and having access to traits, orders and strategems that don't cost any points. The ability to deepstrike is clearly paid for in the points cost of a Crisis Suit or GK Terminator, but the ultra cheap unit can do it for free with a strategem and is more durable, too?
Consider this list again. You all say it's the perfect balance of the forces, or providing CP to the BA or Knight. BTW, I find the theory that elite factions are intentionally CP starved to be extremely generous to the designers, lol - but consider this:
- I remove Knights from the game, the entire faction -> IMO the list shifts to using Baneblade chasis models and buffing them with Guard tools, +1 save and -1 to hit psychic powers, +1 BS Vostroyan or hide in reserves Tallarn strategems and whatever the optimal traits work out to be and continues to be strong.
- I remove BA and Custodes from the game, the entire faction -> IMO the list shifts to units of Bullgryns or Ogryn/Bullgryn characters with 2++ saves and Priests for attack auras, etc. and continues to be strong
- I remove Conscripts and Infantry Squads from the game, just those two units, replace them with say Death Watch Veternas as the IG troop choice -> IMO the list falls stops being competitive, no screens, no durable troops, no cheap CPs
Similarly consider the sole Chaos list in the top 10. Magnus + Mortarion + Ahriman + Demon Prince + mass Cultists & Tzaangors. Remove any one character and the list is weaker, sure, but could be replaced with something and still be good, if not as good. Remove the chaff units and replace them with equal points of, I don't know, Plague Marines and I think we all agree that suddenly you're bringing "too few bodies" and need "boys over toys"
All three Eldar factions took the same super-durable Dark Eldar freak show units, look at what makes them durable, it ain't a strong armor save, lol.
So my position is simply this:
- What makes a unit durable is terribly imbalanced (anything paying for a strong armor save is disadvantaged)
- How CPs are generated is terribly imbalanced (whoever has the cheapest troops and HQs wins)
- The previous two conditions overlap to make certain units disproportionately important, and we all know what they are.
My proposed changes are some kind of broad buffs to elite survival so that having 5 Tac Marines hold a point is as good as having 2 Infantry Squads hold that point and changing CP to something similar to Kill Team or Age of Sigmar 2E.
I think that alone would fix a lot of problems. Each detachment you bring gives you an extra CP a turn at minimum. You always get 1 cp per turn. Bigger detachments like brigades can be 2 cp a turn or something.
Standardize the regain CP trait to a general use trait for all armies. Only regens 1 cp per stratagem. Give all armies with the trait a new trait to replace it.
This evens the CP field a lot.
At that point what is the point of having different detachments?
Why should I pay for an extra HQ to bring troops unit? Why would anyone pay for a Brigade when you can get the same thing with more CP with different detachments?
Also the way the Starstriders and Gellerpox mutants work I think too from what people have said.
House Raven strat is also almost definitely going to be once per game only too - and probably 3CP too.
First was against multiple knights, guard battalion and all that noise, second was against mixed imperials but with the cawl robot/plasma servitors gunline. (And some marines for smash captains and msu tacs with heavy bolters? I’m guessing for hellfire shells, didn’t come up though)
I won both easily. I’m a little shocked.
My plague marines just didn’t die. The guard blobs these lists bring couldn’t kill them in cover (I lost seven total over both games).
In my first game the combined firepower of the knights couldn’t kill mortarion and he killed two on his own before being taken down. The PBC/predator artillery group killed the third.
In my second game his opening salvo failed to kill the PBC he targeted and I was able to get Morty into his lines. The possed single handily rolled up the right flank killing five units of infantry on thier own. I was putting +1 str/tough on them (and votlw if needed) and it turns out reroll all misses wounding on 2’s ap-1 attacks will shred guardsmen, marines and ad mech domini alike. Having CP to reroll the attacks is vital though.
7 losses for two victories? Surely you are blessed by Father Nurgle
52 wounds against a drone that has a 3+ and a 5+ FNP. It took 4 wounds. I had no -AP on any of the shots. He wanted to just pull the drone from the field without rolling saves.
Edit: Are the Thunderwolves shields really weird to put on or am I dumb? It looks like I glue them to the back of the hand but it has that nubbly bit sticking out from the center of the shields.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
I did the same thing. If it is right then it is super weird.
So I decided to build my land speeders finally and I realized that I do not have instructions. I bought them second hand from someone at the LGS like 6 years ago. Not really sure where this all goes.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
The internet provideth.
I occasionally order complex vehicle bits without instructions, but usually just googling "warhammer X KIT instructions" will get you a reddit post or something with a scan.