On the 2v2, I did mention to @Hedgethorn that the way the game was going I felt I would never catch up to his casualty advantage, specially with the British on the move. I tried to make attacking bad for @TheColonel in Charles Town for as long as possible, but my greed in taking the even trying to lower the number of villages just increased the number of dead. The killings in New York were almost single handed-ly French and I felt there was nothing I could do to stop that.
I could've fed some chaff to the British forces, but I didn't think of it until too late.
That's the thing though... you don't want to make attacking Charles Town bad. With Washington and the Rally there you ended up with an even casualty ratio; had you just left it alone it likely would've been +1 or +2 for the British. At that point you'd be within 1-2 and one more Fort and/or a burnt Village would've closed the gap.
I had a hard time finding time to use partisans. I really wanted to march some Militia into the reservations and start burning villages, but never quite had the time and resources. Clearing the Northwest and keeping all those pop 2 colonies free from raids seems really useful.
Partisans in this game are weird because the thing that they're best at -- killing troops at a low cost -- is something the Patriots actively want to avoid. Instead they end up being a lot better as a discouraging force -- a single Militia in a space not only allows you to use Persuasion and Rabble-Rousing, it also forces the British to bring at least two Regulars and two Tories to any space they want to build Support in.
Militia are amazing. Just like you were building to move from the Northwest, I really wanted to build to go into the Northwest. At one point you only have villages and I really wanted to send in my Militia and start Partisans-ing them. But I felt if I ever took a turn off to do that The Brits would use the time to strike in Charles Town.
I needed to find time to turn my Mass Militia into cubes earlier and march them into the Northwest. I think that was my chance at getting more points than the French, but the Brave Patriot continentals never left the comfy-ness of their Massachusetts forts. I think it was a somewhat bloodless fight for the northern patriots.
On the 2v2, I did mention to @Hedgethorn that the way the game was going I felt I would never catch up to his casualty advantage, specially with the British on the move. I tried to make attacking bad for @TheColonel in Charles Town for as long as possible, but my greed in taking the even trying to lower the number of villages just increased the number of dead. The killings in New York were almost single handed-ly French and I felt there was nothing I could do to stop that.
I could've fed some chaff to the British forces, but I didn't think of it until too late.
That's the thing though... you don't want to make attacking Charles Town bad. With Washington and the Rally there you ended up with an even casualty ratio; had you just left it alone it likely would've been +1 or +2 for the British. At that point you'd be within 1-2 and one more Fort and/or a burnt Village would've closed the gap.
True, I was thinking that if I made it bad I could just lock the Brit troops there indefinitely as they wouldn't attack.. But it ended up also locking me out and made the casualty ratios favor the French.
My instinct is to try to win the fights, like in most wargames, but here as long as my forts are fine losing cubes is a positive.
I think that may be my favorite thing about this and the other COIN games. You have a "partner" and some shared win condition, but finding that right balance of pushing yourself to victory without boosting your "ally" is a really cool element.
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
I think that may be my favorite thing about this and the other COIN games. You have a "partner" and some shared win condition, but finding that right balance of pushing yourself to victory without boosting your "ally" is a really cool element.
Definitely. Though I do think it's an area where Liberty or Death falls down in comparison to other COIN games. Not because I think the game doesn't function, but because I think sometimes your goals (particularly for the Patriots) are incredibly unintuitive. I think even with everyone playing "optimally" the game will play out in an historically believable way (unlike one BGG poster who thinks the best way for the Patriots to win is to take all of their armies and spend the whole game invading Indian reservations, which would be a disaster for generating opposition) but the path it takes to get there and the decisions you have to make along the way are often going to feel game-y rather than historical.
So... shall we play again? I know I said I wanted to play the British but I'm happy to do another faction preference ranking and see where everyone lands. I think this scenario is a good choice.
HedgethornAssociate Professor of Historical Hobby HorsesIn the Lions' DenRegistered Userregular
edited September 2018
I'm on my phone, so don't want to post all that deep a reflection on the game, but my take on the COIN games is that if you count a team win as "good enough", your partner is likely to win. No complaints, but I only won because Oreo gave me the win by boosting opposition when they knew winter quarters was coming. They could easily have instead focused on setting up to build more forts for the final campaign, and I'm not sure I would have won in that case; I was stretched extremely thin and the British could well have racked up the rebellion causalities in the final year to deny me the victory.
I found this a bit less straightforward than the other two COINs I've played a bit of (Fire in the Lake and Distant Plain); both of those have a much more obvious push-and-pull dynamic, insofar as in both games, pursuing your own victory conditions usually results in indirectly harming your ally and helping one of the opponents (e.g; the South Vietnamese and the Afghans both want to skim US/coalition resources off the top, but doing so generates opposition which helps the Vietcong/Taliban). This doesn't seem to have that element though, which really makes it easier for your ally to throw you the game; I guess I could have been making life easier for the Indians by diverting Patriot troops, but it was never obvious to me how helpful I was being. It was also strange that a couple of my actions could produce Patriot forts, which isn't really in my best interest if I'm trying to win.
In my mind I wasn’t in a good position to go village hunting and felt you were in a good enough position that by not winning this winter I was prolonging the game but the outcome would be the same. So I felt 2nd is good enough. At least the British oppressors are gone!
The build a fort action from the French does seem really cool. To hurt the French I think i wanted to get more continentals into the meat grinder earlier.
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
OH SHIIIIIIIT HERE WE GO. Imgur is failing to upload the map image so just go back to page 1 for the starting map.
"Common Sense"
During the Summer of 1776, Thomas Paine (anonymously) wrote
this 48-page pamphlet printed by Robert Bell. 120,000 copies were
sold in the first three months. The pamphlet was targeted at the
common colonist rather than elites. It is believed that most colonists
were “on the fence” regarding independence. After “Common Sense”
was distributed, things changed dramatically.
British Resources: 5
Patriot Resources: 2
French Resources: 5
Indian Resources: 0
Total Support: 3
Total Opposition: 5
Cumulative British Casualties (CBC): 1
Cumulative Rebellion Casualties (CRC): 3
French Prep: 9
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
BTW I'm using the Period Events set up so we'll likely see a similar event trend, but there are more event than you use in any period so we should see some new stuff.
HedgethornAssociate Professor of Historical Hobby HorsesIn the Lions' DenRegistered Userregular
Patriots play the Event.
Shift Boston to Active Opposition and place two Propaganda markers there.
Shift Charles Town to Passive Opposition and place two Propaganda markers there.
@admanb is next eligible for Command+Special Ability.
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Options
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
British Battle + Skirmish
Skirmish in NYC, removing the Continental there.
Battle in New York, spending 1 resource.
British activate no WP, FL=6. Patriots have no options, FL=3.
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
So there's the 6% chance of that completely fucking up. Patriots lose two Continentals while the British lose one Tory and one Regular. Patriots are the defender so they win, Washington doubles the shift so New York goes to active opp.
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
As a matter of complete self-interest I'll note that turning Tories into Militia is not beneficial to the French, since Tories are one of your best source of easy casualties.
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
VASSAL has started saving the map at 13mb+ instead of the 8-9 it was doing before, so I have to crop it before uploading to imgur. Because fuck me I guess.
British Resources: 4
Patriot Resources: 6
French Resources: 2
Indian Resources: 0
Total Support: 3
Total Opposition: 11
Cumulative British Casualties (CBC): 3
Cumulative Rebellion Casualties (CRC): 6
French Prep: 14
HedgethornAssociate Professor of Historical Hobby HorsesIn the Lions' DenRegistered Userregular
Patriots Rally, paying 6 resources:
- 1 Militia in Pennsylvania
- 1 Militia in Maryland/Delaware
- 1 Militia in Connecticut/Rhode Island
- 1 Militia in South Carolina
- 1 Militia in North Carolina
- 1 Militia in Virginia
Then, Persuasion in North Carolina, Massachusetts, and Connecticut/Rhode Island, placing a Propaganda marker in each.
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
British Muster, paying 1 resource to:
- Place 6 Regulars in Virginia
- Place 2 Tories in Virginia
- Replace 2 Tories and a Regular with a Fort in Virginia
HedgethornAssociate Professor of Historical Hobby HorsesIn the Lions' DenRegistered Userregular
Passing when first eligible, when you're last eligible on the next card? That's a curious play. +2 resources for passing is nice, but Prepare for War would have made you eligible to enter the game.
Posts
That's the thing though... you don't want to make attacking Charles Town bad. With Washington and the Rally there you ended up with an even casualty ratio; had you just left it alone it likely would've been +1 or +2 for the British. At that point you'd be within 1-2 and one more Fort and/or a burnt Village would've closed the gap.
Militia are amazing. Just like you were building to move from the Northwest, I really wanted to build to go into the Northwest. At one point you only have villages and I really wanted to send in my Militia and start Partisans-ing them. But I felt if I ever took a turn off to do that The Brits would use the time to strike in Charles Town.
I needed to find time to turn my Mass Militia into cubes earlier and march them into the Northwest. I think that was my chance at getting more points than the French, but the Brave Patriot continentals never left the comfy-ness of their Massachusetts forts. I think it was a somewhat bloodless fight for the northern patriots.
True, I was thinking that if I made it bad I could just lock the Brit troops there indefinitely as they wouldn't attack.. But it ended up also locking me out and made the casualty ratios favor the French.
My instinct is to try to win the fights, like in most wargames, but here as long as my forts are fine losing cubes is a positive.
Definitely. Though I do think it's an area where Liberty or Death falls down in comparison to other COIN games. Not because I think the game doesn't function, but because I think sometimes your goals (particularly for the Patriots) are incredibly unintuitive. I think even with everyone playing "optimally" the game will play out in an historically believable way (unlike one BGG poster who thinks the best way for the Patriots to win is to take all of their armies and spend the whole game invading Indian reservations, which would be a disaster for generating opposition) but the path it takes to get there and the decisions you have to make along the way are often going to feel game-y rather than historical.
So... shall we play again? I know I said I wanted to play the British but I'm happy to do another faction preference ranking and see where everyone lands. I think this scenario is a good choice.
@TheColonel @A Half Eaten Oreo @Hedgethorn
I'd be happy to play again, but would also be fine letting someone else have a go if there's a lurker who wants to play.
I found this a bit less straightforward than the other two COINs I've played a bit of (Fire in the Lake and Distant Plain); both of those have a much more obvious push-and-pull dynamic, insofar as in both games, pursuing your own victory conditions usually results in indirectly harming your ally and helping one of the opponents (e.g; the South Vietnamese and the Afghans both want to skim US/coalition resources off the top, but doing so generates opposition which helps the Vietcong/Taliban). This doesn't seem to have that element though, which really makes it easier for your ally to throw you the game; I guess I could have been making life easier for the Indians by diverting Patriot troops, but it was never obvious to me how helpful I was being. It was also strange that a couple of my actions could produce Patriot forts, which isn't really in my best interest if I'm trying to win.
The build a fort action from the French does seem really cool. To hurt the French I think i wanted to get more continentals into the meat grinder earlier.
@TheColonel and @Hedgethorn for faction preferences. I'm going with --
1. British
2. Patriots
3. French
4. Indians
I'll put up a new thread with the new start tomorrow morning!
"Common Sense"
During the Summer of 1776, Thomas Paine (anonymously) wrote
this 48-page pamphlet printed by Robert Bell. 120,000 copies were
sold in the first three months. The pamphlet was targeted at the
common colonist rather than elites. It is believed that most colonists
were “on the fence” regarding independence. After “Common Sense”
was distributed, things changed dramatically.
British Resources: 5
Patriot Resources: 2
French Resources: 5
Indian Resources: 0
Total Support: 3
Total Opposition: 5
Cumulative British Casualties (CBC): 1
Cumulative Rebellion Casualties (CRC): 3
French Prep: 9
@Hedgethorn to start us out!
Shift Boston to Active Opposition and place two Propaganda markers there.
Shift Charles Town to Passive Opposition and place two Propaganda markers there.
@admanb is next eligible for Command+Special Ability.
Skirmish in NYC, removing the Continental there.
Battle in New York, spending 1 resource.
British activate no WP, FL=6. Patriots have no options, FL=3.
Defender LL = +1 regulars, +1 underground, +1 leader, -1 Washington
Attacker LL = +1 leader
Geth, roll 2d3 for British
Geth, roll 1d3 for Patriots
@Hedgethorn to free Rally in one space.
Boy that really deflated me.
Sorry, nix that; I hadn't looked at the upcoming event. Let's instead Rally in Virginia, adding 1 militia.
British Resources: 4
Patriot Resources: 2
French Resources: 5
Indian Resources: 0
Total Support: 3
Total Opposition: 11
Cumulative British Casualties (CBC): 3
Cumulative Rebellion Casualties (CRC): 6
French Prep: 11
@TheColonel
Roderigue Hortalez Et Cie - Spend 3 to give the Patriots 2 resources.
Preparer La Guerre
Move 3 Regulars from Unavailable to Available
@A Half Eaten Oreo for Limited Command or Event
Map probably needs update @admanb.
@Hedgethorn is next to act.
British Resources: 4
Patriot Resources: 6
French Resources: 2
Indian Resources: 0
Total Support: 3
Total Opposition: 11
Cumulative British Casualties (CBC): 3
Cumulative Rebellion Casualties (CRC): 6
French Prep: 14
@Hedgethorn
- 1 Militia in Pennsylvania
- 1 Militia in Maryland/Delaware
- 1 Militia in Connecticut/Rhode Island
- 1 Militia in South Carolina
- 1 Militia in North Carolina
- 1 Militia in Virginia
Then, Persuasion in North Carolina, Massachusetts, and Connecticut/Rhode Island, placing a Propaganda marker in each.
Patriots resources = 3.
@admanb for Limited Command or Event.
- Place 6 Regulars in Virginia
- Place 2 Tories in Virginia
- Replace 2 Tories and a Regular with a Fort in Virginia
British Resources: 3
Patriot Resources: 3
French Resources: 2
Indian Resources: 0
Total Support: 3
Total Opposition: 11
Cumulative British Casualties (CBC): 3
Cumulative Rebellion Casualties (CRC): 6
French Prep: 14
@TheColonel