A lot of people have a poor grasp on the ways that therapy can work. In many cases, it is pretty much is just the patient lying on a couch while being smart.
The thing that really gets me about this show is that at the end of every season Bojack looks like he might be finally taking some steps to change. He wants to change. The people that care about him want him to change. We, as viewers, are hoping he'll change. And every season it looks like he's on the path towards progress.
But then he doesn't. He slips back into his old damaged ways. He pushes those people who care for him further and further away. Over. And over. Again.
And that is a far more uncomfortably realistic depiction of self destruction than a show about a horse has any right to portray.
That he's still awful shouldn't be interpreted as he's not making change.
The Bojack we see in Season 5 is far more capable of maintaining and developing normal relationships than in Season 1, for instance. Until addiction overtakes him he has a reasonably healthy and normal relationship with Gina and is unselfishly happy for her success. He's working on a relationship with his half-sister, stumbling though it may be.
He's also largely moved on from his parents, especially with his mother's death and the events of Season 4.
S5 is notable in that his honestly sympathetic substance abuse drives a lot of his failures rather than his mental illness turning him to substance abuse. Bojack at is at least moving towards being ok until he hurts himself.
This is why it feels weird to me that the creators of the show were afraid that people might be too sympathetic towards BoJack or identify with him too much. They said that in interviews and alluded to it in the show, but BoJack's downfall in this season wasn't even really his fault. Princess Caroline had him put on painkillers and Diane made him paranoid by broaching a sensitive topic in the shittiest way possible.
The guy needs someone who cares about him consistently, but the only person like that is Hollyhock and BoJack doesn't want to get her involved and screw up her life. Everyone else is either too busy with their own lives to help or isn't inclined to.
I do wonder a bit why BoJack was so resistant to therapy.
That's actually something I like about this season. Bojack has done lots of shitty things that have made his life worse in the past. But in this season, there are shitty things that happen to him. Some of them are his fault, some of them are others faults, some are more complicated than that (Yes, Princess Caroline had him put on painkillers, but Bojack is the one who was too prideful to back down from doing his own stunt work, so I think it is a bit unfair to say it is entirely her fault.). And regardless of who caused that shitty thing, a big part of how it influences your life is your reaction to it. So here we have Bojack, who is trying to become a better person, desperately crawling towards becoming something stable and healthy. And the world keeps kicking him down. And then he kicks himself for getting kicked down, for added measure, because the only thing he knows for sure is that he is a terrible person who deserves to be kicked.
It compliments the rest of the series quite well, imo. This isn't me trying to be contentious or anything, just ranting about something I enjoyed.
I can't wait for the next season, but part of me really hopes it wraps up sooner rather than later. The show isn't overstaying its welcome by any means, but I want it to end while it is still so damn good.
The thing that really gets me about this show is that at the end of every season Bojack looks like he might be finally taking some steps to change. He wants to change. The people that care about him want him to change. We, as viewers, are hoping he'll change. And every season it looks like he's on the path towards progress.
But then he doesn't. He slips back into his old damaged ways. He pushes those people who care for him further and further away. Over. And over. Again.
And that is a far more uncomfortably realistic depiction of self destruction than a show about a horse has any right to portray.
That he's still awful shouldn't be interpreted as he's not making change.
The Bojack we see in Season 5 is far more capable of maintaining and developing normal relationships than in Season 1, for instance. Until addiction overtakes him he has a reasonably healthy and normal relationship with Gina and is unselfishly happy for her success. He's working on a relationship with his half-sister, stumbling though it may be.
He's also largely moved on from his parents, especially with his mother's death and the events of Season 4.
S5 is notable in that his honestly sympathetic substance abuse drives a lot of his failures rather than his mental illness turning him to substance abuse. Bojack at is at least moving towards being ok until he hurts himself.
This is why it feels weird to me that the creators of the show were afraid that people might be too sympathetic towards BoJack or identify with him too much. They said that in interviews and alluded to it in the show, but BoJack's downfall in this season wasn't even really his fault. Princess Caroline had him put on painkillers and Diane made him paranoid by broaching a sensitive topic in the shittiest way possible.
The guy needs someone who cares about him consistently, but the only person like that is Hollyhock and BoJack doesn't want to get her involved and screw up her life. Everyone else is either too busy with their own lives to help or isn't inclined to.
I do wonder a bit why BoJack was so resistant to therapy.
Because his father taught him that people who talk about and express their emotions do so only to manipulate others. Compounded by his mother reacting to anything he did with either indifference or contempt, he's been conditioned through negative feedback to repress his feelings about everything. That shit is wedged into his brain and it's why he looks half-panicked when Hollyhock said "I love you" and waited for a reply.
Part of me is afraid so. I mean, he is over fifty with a history of drug and alcohol abuse.
That's why I can't help but be very sympathetic towards BoJack. Like, most of his life has already been fucked by his mental and behavioral issues and things he did because of their influence over him.
Part of me is afraid so. I mean, he is over fifty with a history of drug and alcohol abuse.
That's why I can't help but be very sympathetic towards BoJack. Like, most of his life has already been fucked by his mental and behavioral issues and things he did because of their influence over him.
God no, if they pulled the "he finally gets the breakthrough he needs and the resolution to turn his life around for real this time...and then he dies immediately after" it will permanently sour me on the show. It would be the most cliche ridiculous Harvey Birdman-esque ending for a show that has been wholly too intelligent about that sort of thing so far.
+2
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Part of me is afraid so. I mean, he is over fifty with a history of drug and alcohol abuse.
That's why I can't help but be very sympathetic towards BoJack. Like, most of his life has already been fucked by his mental and behavioral issues and things he did because of their influence over him.
God no, if they pulled the "he finally gets the breakthrough he needs and the resolution to turn his life around for real this time...and then he dies immediately after" it will permanently sour me on the show. It would be the most cliche ridiculous Harvey Birdman-esque ending for a show that has been wholly too intelligent about that sort of thing so far.
Speaking of Harvey Birdman, I wonder how they write themselves out of the corner.
Whenever I buy a little honeydew&cantaloupe bowl I am admitting to myself I don't know which is which and I find that I like both of them and that they actually pair pretty well, flavorwise
Those snooty LA writers are killing the honeydew industry!!!
"and the morning stars I have seen
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
Watermelon is good but it has the problem where someone starts cutting one up for a fruit salad and oh god it's so much bigger than all the other fruits and now the fruit salad is like 80% watermelon.
Watermelon is good but it has the problem where someone starts cutting one up for a fruit salad and oh god it's so much bigger than all the other fruits and now the fruit salad is like 80% watermelon.
First time Emmy nominee for best animated show (finally). Honestly I'd argue for it as Best...Drama? Comedy? Where would they submit? Oddly no nomination for Arnett for voice over work. Which given they nominated the show based on "Free Churro"...
Emmy voting is weird y'all.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Watermelon is good but it has the problem where someone starts cutting one up for a fruit salad and oh god it's so much bigger than all the other fruits and now the fruit salad is like 80% watermelon.
For the best, I think. I'd rather a definitive end than stringing along this miserable old horse for however long.
Considering I already felt like last season had BoJack hit another rut just to keep the story going on I'm glad they've decided to end it with this one.
Considering how last season left me with a bad taste in my mouth I'm honestly considering waiting to hear if BoJack never gets better or Penny's mom kills him (a surprisingly popular fan theory, btw) or whatever in the last season before I watch it.
I want a hopeful ending for this show, but I'm afraid it'll end up with the mentally ill protagonist failing to ever overcome his issues.
Considering how last season left me with a bad taste in my mouth I'm honestly considering waiting to hear if BoJack never gets better or Penny's mom kills him (a surprisingly popular fan theory, btw) or whatever in the last season before I watch it.
I want a hopeful ending for this show, but I'm afraid it'll end up with the mentally ill protagonist failing to ever overcome his issues.
Unfortunately it's a popular fan theory because that kind of shit is all too common - instead of giving the struggling protagonist hope for the future they are usually just written off as unfixable and killed. Hell, I too even have concerns that the end of the series is going to end with killing him.
I do have more hope than I would with other series' though, the writers are very aware of their subject matter(e.g. the idiocy of sending the message that people struggling with depression are better off dead) and if there's a writing team I think will avoid retreading that tire, it would be the Bojack team.
Donnicton on
+1
AkimboEGMr. FancypantsWears very fine pants indeedRegistered Userregular
I'm not surprised this will be the final season, but I wonder if that would still be the case if the animators' strike didn't end in their favor (joining the guild, thereby increasing production costs).
Give me a kiss to build a dream on; And my imagination will thrive upon that kiss; Sweetheart, I ask no more than this; A kiss to build a dream on
I doubt the show ends with Bojack either dead or fully redeemed. Its not that kind of show.
A one-season turnaround redemption would actually be worse. His problems are not something you presto-chango fix after 5 seasons of roller coaster struggling.
They do need to end the series with a definitive finality at this point however, which will probably end with making a real commitment to get some help.
A nice way to bring the whole thing full circle would be to end it with him starting on an autobiography.
+1
Golden YakBurnished BovineThe sunny beaches of CanadaRegistered Userregular
I'd be quite happy with a 'he's not totally 'fixed' and never going to be (whatever that would even mean), but he's turned away from the edge and is on the road to becoming healthier and happier'.
There's enough depressing stuff in media that I think it would be helpful if this incredibly popular and well-known show about a very depressed person ended with a message like 'yeah, you can be kind've a shit person and you still aren't beyond hope.'
Tbh I'd be fine with it not ending him totally healed.
As someone who is just now, finally, at age 36 fixing his shit and going into therapy and getting on meds that are actually helping for once, healing from a life of being a miserable sack of shit is a long process. If the show ends with him on a good path that's all that matters to me. He's not gonna get better instantly, he just needs to be putting in the effort. The trailer honestly hit at a good time for me cause I can definitely relate to that struggle.
That said, I will be insulted if they do a full baby face turn with him outta nowhere cause it'd be unrealistic as fuck and honestly offensive to someone like me.
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It compliments the rest of the series quite well, imo. This isn't me trying to be contentious or anything, just ranting about something I enjoyed.
I can't wait for the next season, but part of me really hopes it wraps up sooner rather than later. The show isn't overstaying its welcome by any means, but I want it to end while it is still so damn good.
Let's Plays of Japanese Games
That's why I can't help but be very sympathetic towards BoJack. Like, most of his life has already been fucked by his mental and behavioral issues and things he did because of their influence over him.
Speaking of Harvey Birdman, I wonder how they write themselves out of the corner.
Honeydew is garbage fruit!
Yoshi is gonna be pissed
Those snooty LA writers are killing the honeydew industry!!!
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
Me? I just like melons
What about... broccoli on pizza?
*Chocolate- and hazelnut-flavored spread you normally put on sandwiches
Broccoli, cauliflower, artichoke, spinach, etc etc are all fantastic on pizza
I suspect the haters are all undernourished chuds
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
Broccoli would go good with like a cheddar sauce base, some onions, a bit of steak.
Damn. I know what im making at work tomorrow
I don't see that as a problem.
Emmy voting is weird y'all.
seriously, it's not honeydew.
For the best, I think. I'd rather a definitive end than stringing along this miserable old horse for however long.
Considering I already felt like last season had BoJack hit another rut just to keep the story going on I'm glad they've decided to end it with this one.
I want a hopeful ending for this show, but I'm afraid it'll end up with the mentally ill protagonist failing to ever overcome his issues.
Unfortunately it's a popular fan theory because that kind of shit is all too common - instead of giving the struggling protagonist hope for the future they are usually just written off as unfixable and killed. Hell, I too even have concerns that the end of the series is going to end with killing him.
I do have more hope than I would with other series' though, the writers are very aware of their subject matter(e.g. the idiocy of sending the message that people struggling with depression are better off dead) and if there's a writing team I think will avoid retreading that tire, it would be the Bojack team.
I am guessing they tease Bojack Killing himself at least once. Well, once more.
A one-season turnaround redemption would actually be worse. His problems are not something you presto-chango fix after 5 seasons of roller coaster struggling.
They do need to end the series with a definitive finality at this point however, which will probably end with making a real commitment to get some help.
Big part of the show's theme is there is no end point, the world just keeps going on
There's enough depressing stuff in media that I think it would be helpful if this incredibly popular and well-known show about a very depressed person ended with a message like 'yeah, you can be kind've a shit person and you still aren't beyond hope.'
As someone who is just now, finally, at age 36 fixing his shit and going into therapy and getting on meds that are actually helping for once, healing from a life of being a miserable sack of shit is a long process. If the show ends with him on a good path that's all that matters to me. He's not gonna get better instantly, he just needs to be putting in the effort. The trailer honestly hit at a good time for me cause I can definitely relate to that struggle.
That said, I will be insulted if they do a full baby face turn with him outta nowhere cause it'd be unrealistic as fuck and honestly offensive to someone like me.