Wrath is when they gave tanks a massive passive threat boost.
In BFA it got nerfed a good chunk, mostly to make AoE tanking require a bit more thought than spamming AoE.
Yeah, tanks got a massive boost, but melee also got a reduction to 80% or so base threat compared to a tank role. I just don't remember when those lined up, but I know it was not part of early Vanilla.
If you remember that, that's kind of how it felt getting to have Salv. "Holy shit, I don't have aggro. Ever."
they removed that a while back because in like 2008 weed references weren't harmless yet
Yeah, I remember why they did it. I am still annoyed by it as even though it's a reference, he's not actually talking about drugs. He's talking about chopping up some dwarves!
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i want to say there were disc priests in vanilla. they were very far between, and very gear dependent, but i know they out stupid dps numbers.
there was also a famous holy priest that was classified as a dps because he was no.2 on the dps charts for a world first guild. they let him roll dkp on any caster loot because he was able to put up the numbers for it.
Discipline was useless in vanilla except as a PvP spec but depending on which patch exactly we're talking about I vaguely recall there was a buff at 21 points in that someone had to gimp themselves to get.
There was actually a lot of that in vanilla, e.g. Blessings unlocked in Prot and Ret specs, where the spec was useless but the buffs were amazing (IIRC Blessing of Kings was 31 points into Prot lol...?)
Also as someone who played a mage in vanilla I need a citation for that "DPS Holy Priest" because I could only see that being tolerated in the lulz days of Molten Core.
I think in general talent spec usefulness will be a shock to people. Want to play a mage? Ok well Arcane is garbage and Frost is only truly good as a pvp spec, Fire is great but all the meaningful bosses in the first two raids are fire immune, and the rest are fire resistant - have fun!
When we finally got to actually use Fire in AQ and Naxx it was such a game changer. Will the classic server have rolling ignites, I wonder?
Oh my god. I just remembered how we rolled opposing PvP guilds / enemies in AV using pots that raised our resistances to their PBAE effects while our 7 mages in the Guild AE'd them down.
I can't remember what they were called, though.
That aside, classic WoW was lovingly built as "Everquest done as we'd do it" (Furor & Tigole 4tw), so I'm curious how people who never experienced it will think of it.
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they mention needing a ret paladin, and that's jiving with some of my memory. but this was also 2007 before youtube and smartphones. im pretty sure its all buried under a decade of forum posts that have been purged in the last eight years so Ill accept the criticism of those that are unbelieving.
Discipline was useless in vanilla except as a PvP spec but depending on which patch exactly we're talking about I vaguely recall there was a buff at 21 points in that someone had to gimp themselves to get.
Yeah, I was a 21/30 disc/holy for most of vanilla. I was 31/20 for a while, too, on later raids where I could PI a mage for some significant DPS gains. Divine spirit was 21 points into the discipline tree, but the 31 point talent for holy was lightwell, so it wasn't like I was giving up very much.
i want to say there were disc priests in vanilla. they were very far between, and very gear dependent, but i know they out stupid dps numbers.
there was also a famous holy priest that was classified as a dps because he was no.2 on the dps charts for a world first guild. they let him roll dkp on any caster loot because he was able to put up the numbers for it.
I only knew of one Disc priest pre Wrath
He was quite vocal how they "ruined" the spec when they made it playable. I remember this because I still until WoD I did not play that spec because I had no idea how it worked nor did I really figure out the healing part of it until late Wod
I know he quit the game but it's one of the many questions I had about that spec and why did he play it {basically he was immortal in pvp and I feel that was why}
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Tynnanseldom correct, never unsureRegistered Userregular
Weird non-max specs are the thing I miss most about WoW's talent trees, like 7/20/34 Survival in TBC.
Feral/Resto Druid (I think it was 30/21 for swiftmend?) was a hilariously slippery build for running flags. It does feel like the move toward Diablo-style talent trees lists, for all it gained in ease of use, cost us something too.
That's one of the more odd things thinking back that there were whole specs that were either just dead or viewed and designed only for pvp
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Tynnanseldom correct, never unsureRegistered Userregular
I'm not a fan of there being completely dead specs, but having super-specialized builds for specific pvp roles was interesting. And as a Druid player around that time who felt a bit underappreciated by my guild in the raid setting, having a niche in Warsong Gulch to dominate felt really nice.
Weird non-max specs are the thing I miss most about WoW's talent trees, like 7/20/34 Survival in TBC.
Yeah people complained about "non viable talent specs" a lot but that could mostly be met with "for elite min-max raiding". I feel like the talents after they did away with the talent treats in cata were far more cookie cutter. There were 3 choices per talent grouping and you either had the sub-optimal passive talents or the optimal raid talent.
Didn't pick the optimal ones? Good luck raiding or doing mythics!
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Discipline was useless in vanilla except as a PvP spec but depending on which patch exactly we're talking about I vaguely recall there was a buff at 21 points in that someone had to gimp themselves to get.
There was actually a lot of that in vanilla, e.g. Blessings unlocked in Prot and Ret specs, where the spec was useless but the buffs were amazing (IIRC Blessing of Kings was 31 points into Prot lol...?)
Also as someone who played a mage in vanilla I need a citation for that "DPS Holy Priest" because I could only see that being tolerated in the lulz days of Molten Core.
I think in general talent spec usefulness will be a shock to people. Want to play a mage? Ok well Arcane is garbage and Frost is only truly good as a pvp spec, Fire is great but all the meaningful bosses in the first two raids are fire immune, and the rest are fire resistant - have fun!
When we finally got to actually use Fire in AQ and Naxx it was such a game changer. Will the classic server have rolling ignites, I wonder?
Judging by the golems in Westfall being bleed immune, I'm going to go ahead and guess all of MC will be fire immune or resistant.
Ok so I made a night elf priest to test out them, Where is the racial now? do they get it later on or is it gone? I think it was level 20?
Yay auto loot and scolling text are in the game as well as the Oh I'm dancing again! Hope you and your friends are enjoying the show.
I forgot how much I hated leveling priests then I was quite the sadist doing 9 to various levels {usually around 40 to 50 I would give up and delete them Even after that one incident in Wrath where my brother and I could not keep up the Death Knight tank and how much he chewed us out I was so dismayed I wanted to delete and start over again just my brother pointed out how bad of a habit I had doing that and how much I hated leveling them even though I became a pro at it.
Came flooding back to me as I played one
I had to check the Classic talent trees, and yeah, you got access to Divine Spirit at 21 Disc. Which means the healers loved you for the extra mana. And at 31 was Power Infusion, which if you had a mage raid leader meant you got all the loot because they loved you for that +20% damage buff.
Improved Mana Burn was handy for a few fights too, plus in PvP. (DEAR LORD DO I MISS IT ON LIVE.)
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Discipline was useless in vanilla except as a PvP spec but depending on which patch exactly we're talking about I vaguely recall there was a buff at 21 points in that someone had to gimp themselves to get.
There was actually a lot of that in vanilla, e.g. Blessings unlocked in Prot and Ret specs, where the spec was useless but the buffs were amazing (IIRC Blessing of Kings was 31 points into Prot lol...?)
Also as someone who played a mage in vanilla I need a citation for that "DPS Holy Priest" because I could only see that being tolerated in the lulz days of Molten Core.
I think in general talent spec usefulness will be a shock to people. Want to play a mage? Ok well Arcane is garbage and Frost is only truly good as a pvp spec, Fire is great but all the meaningful bosses in the first two raids are fire immune, and the rest are fire resistant - have fun!
When we finally got to actually use Fire in AQ and Naxx it was such a game changer. Will the classic server have rolling ignites, I wonder?
Judging by the golems in Westfall being bleed immune, I'm going to go ahead and guess all of MC will be fire immune or resistant.
BWL was actually worse for Fire than Molten Core, shockingly, lol. 5/8 bosses were fire immune and the remaining three were the easiest bosses in the instance. It's most telling on Vael where melee get a huge dps buff and casters are only brought so the "targets people with mana" effect doesn't kill all the healers right away.
Weird non-max specs are the thing I miss most about WoW's talent trees, like 7/20/34 Survival in TBC.
Yeah people complained about "non viable talent specs" a lot but that could mostly be met with "for elite min-max raiding". I feel like the talents after they did away with the talent treats in cata were far more cookie cutter. There were 3 choices per talent grouping and you either had the sub-optimal passive talents or the optimal raid talent.
Didn't pick the optimal ones? Good luck raiding or doing mythics!
Well, remember in vanilla raiding is all there was. You couldn't gear yourself through PvP, the rank 14 grind was a joke, it took such an incredible account of time grinding, and in the days of insane queue times, you're not getting Grand Marshal if raiding is too much of a time sink.
You couldn't collect badges for epics from 5 mans or whatever, there was only the slow creep of newer dungeons having better designed loot.
And if you were raiding or seriously pvping and had a spec for that, well that was the spec you used for everything because it cost a lot to switch and there was no dual spec.
They didn't even add in area loot? Welp I hope people enjoy this but it seems like they aren't doing the WoW Classic Remastered kind of thing I was hoping for. Those little quality of life improvements could really help make old WoW more enjoyable without changing it too much.
They didn't even add in area loot? Welp I hope people enjoy this but it seems like they aren't doing the WoW Classic Remastered kind of thing I was hoping for. Those little quality of life improvements could really help make old WoW more enjoyable without changing it too much.
I thought it was working when I was playing the demo, but I wasn't paying too much attention.
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Plenty of people were fine doing dungeons and farming and light pvping or pick up raids like ZG towards the end.
Not everyone needed/wanted to min-max end game content.
Yea and plenty of people just liked standing around in Ironforge chatting, too, and I'm sure they'll all still have their fun, but then there are the people in modern WoW expansions who had experienced varying levels of "don't want to commit the time to raiding? No problem here are badges or reps you can progress with, or here, do pvp for a reasonable gear progression as well or here are some crafted items you can work towards or even more recent Diablo style keep doing quests and sometimes the RNG will spit out a truly awesome piece" and if any of them try the classic server I think they'll be disappointed by "raid or nothing" position. It's particularly going to be a hassle for them if they want to pvp because a raid geared pvp team is the best pvp team.
And if they're raiding they'll have to use a raid spec. Although honestly it's not like a Prot or Ret pally was useful in 5 mans, either. There was a window where everyone just ran 10-15 man raids through Scholo and Strat but I assume we're going live without that debacle right? These instances were pretty tough, in appropriate gear I really don't think you can tolerate carrying someone performing half as well as a viable spec.
Although that just reminds me of how bad the loot was in the opening dungeons. Sure, melee had meaningful gear upgrades, but casters had literally no useful gear. Int didn't raise spell power, just mana and very slightly crit chance (like 1% every 100 int IIRC) and there was no +spell power gear in those 5 mans. Even %crit and %hit gear was from later, better itemized places like Dire Maul.
The more I think about this classic server the more of an unpleasant experience it seems like. I loved the community in vanilla WoW and that's what kept me hooked, but I feel like that community was there through TBC and beginning WotLK too, and that you can recapture that spirit by rolling back some features without going all the way back to World of Roguecraft.
My friend and I are hoping they do what Everquest does and eventually make it a progression thing and stop at Wrath cause Wrath was our favorite expansion.
Plenty of people were fine doing dungeons and farming and light pvping or pick up raids like ZG towards the end.
Not everyone needed/wanted to min-max end game content.
Yea and plenty of people just liked standing around in Ironforge chatting, too, and I'm sure they'll all still have their fun, but then there are the people in modern WoW expansions who had experienced varying levels of "don't want to commit the time to raiding? No problem here are badges or reps you can progress with, or here, do pvp for a reasonable gear progression as well or here are some crafted items you can work towards or even more recent Diablo style keep doing quests and sometimes the RNG will spit out a truly awesome piece" and if any of them try the classic server I think they'll be disappointed by "raid or nothing" position. It's particularly going to be a hassle for them if they want to pvp because a raid geared pvp team is the best pvp team.
And if they're raiding they'll have to use a raid spec. Although honestly it's not like a Prot or Ret pally was useful in 5 mans, either. There was a window where everyone just ran 10-15 man raids through Scholo and Strat but I assume we're going live without that debacle right? These instances were pretty tough, in appropriate gear I really don't think you can tolerate carrying someone performing half as well as a viable spec.
Although that just reminds me of how bad the loot was in the opening dungeons. Sure, melee had meaningful gear upgrades, but casters had literally no useful gear. Int didn't raise spell power, just mana and very slightly crit chance (like 1% every 100 int IIRC) and there was no +spell power gear in those 5 mans. Even %crit and %hit gear was from later, better itemized places like Dire Maul.
The more I think about this classic server the more of an unpleasant experience it seems like. I loved the community in vanilla WoW and that's what kept me hooked, but I feel like that community was there through TBC and beginning WotLK too, and that you can recapture that spirit by rolling back some features without going all the way back to World of Roguecraft.
The classic server definitely wont be meant for everyone. It almost feels like a spiteful move on Blizzards part. People kept asking for classic so now they get classic as pure as humanly possible. No QoL changes just classic in all its frustration.
I know it isn't a spiteful thing and it is cool they are doing it but when people talk about how they are disappointed in a lack of updated stuff it makes me think how Blizzard could absolutely say, "this is what you asked for".
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What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
They should just make a bunch of special ruleset servers and IMHO one of them should be "modern content, but no automated LFG tool, cross server grouping or sharding" bonus points if it's also "you can group cross faction, forget this artificial conflict bullshit and just enjoy a healthy server population".
And if they're raiding they'll have to use a raid spec. Although honestly it's not like a Prot or Ret pally was useful in 5 mans, either. There was a window where everyone just ran 10-15 man raids through Scholo and Strat but I assume we're going live without that debacle right? These instances were pretty tough, in appropriate gear I really don't think you can tolerate carrying someone performing half as well as a viable spec.
Agree for the most part, Lan, but the above doesn't feel right. Strat and Scholo were doable without being an ultra spec'd Raider. Lower Blackrock Spire I always remembered as being the toughest of the 5-mans (and length had a lot to do with that), but if you actually CC'd (god I miss needing to CC), you could carry someone as it were.
It's going to take awhile for a lot of people to hit 60 and be raid ready, anyways, and the old raids were doable without all 40 being actual raiders. My PvP guild were pure PvP'ers and HATED PvE and were definitely not focused on it, but I still managed to drag them to Ragnaros.
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Yea molten core just needs forty bodies, especially if they keep the out of combat rezzing nonsense in. But Scholo and human side of Strat I distinctly remember enjoying because they were pretty hard, cc intensive dungeon crawls.
Edit: WRT specs I think 5 mans were fine for non optimal specs of dps classes, but you definitely would run into issues with druid or paladin tanking and ret and balance dps at least were sad jokes, I don't remember how low feral dps was. Basically, warriors were the only class that actually had two roles it could do, and for some reason it took a while for people to figure out Fury was good
It was absurd in PvP but there was this crazy period at the beginning of WoW when "everyone knew" Warriors did terrible DPS because Arms was bad for PvE, and a few guys were quietly putting out crazy numbers as Fury. At some point there was a video of a Fury warrior trivially soloing elites, just 2-3 shotting them, that finally got everyone's attention.
This server is great for fostering nostalgia threads like this one but man, I'm not sure who's going to play on it lol.
One of the main rival Alliance guilds had a Fury warrior who insisted on PvP'ng as such. It was interesting. They made their character do work, though, we had some epic battles.
As for who's going to play on it....the nostalgia in me wants to so hard, but I know I don't have the time (or the guild for that matter). Makes me sad.
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Laaaaame. Blizzard I am disappoint.
Yeah, tanks got a massive boost, but melee also got a reduction to 80% or so base threat compared to a tank role. I just don't remember when those lined up, but I know it was not part of early Vanilla.
If you remember that, that's kind of how it felt getting to have Salv. "Holy shit, I don't have aggro. Ever."
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Yeah, I remember why they did it. I am still annoyed by it as even though it's a reference, he's not actually talking about drugs. He's talking about chopping up some dwarves!
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there was also a famous holy priest that was classified as a dps because he was no.2 on the dps charts for a world first guild. they let him roll dkp on any caster loot because he was able to put up the numbers for it.
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There was actually a lot of that in vanilla, e.g. Blessings unlocked in Prot and Ret specs, where the spec was useless but the buffs were amazing (IIRC Blessing of Kings was 31 points into Prot lol...?)
Also as someone who played a mage in vanilla I need a citation for that "DPS Holy Priest" because I could only see that being tolerated in the lulz days of Molten Core.
I think in general talent spec usefulness will be a shock to people. Want to play a mage? Ok well Arcane is garbage and Frost is only truly good as a pvp spec, Fire is great but all the meaningful bosses in the first two raids are fire immune, and the rest are fire resistant - have fun!
When we finally got to actually use Fire in AQ and Naxx it was such a game changer. Will the classic server have rolling ignites, I wonder?
I can't remember what they were called, though.
That aside, classic WoW was lovingly built as "Everquest done as we'd do it" (Furor & Tigole 4tw), so I'm curious how people who never experienced it will think of it.
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they mention needing a ret paladin, and that's jiving with some of my memory. but this was also 2007 before youtube and smartphones. im pretty sure its all buried under a decade of forum posts that have been purged in the last eight years so Ill accept the criticism of those that are unbelieving.
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Yeah, I was a 21/30 disc/holy for most of vanilla. I was 31/20 for a while, too, on later raids where I could PI a mage for some significant DPS gains. Divine spirit was 21 points into the discipline tree, but the 31 point talent for holy was lightwell, so it wasn't like I was giving up very much.
My friend abused that Survival talent that converted stam into attack power to pretty funny effect
I only knew of one Disc priest pre Wrath
He was quite vocal how they "ruined" the spec when they made it playable. I remember this because I still until WoD I did not play that spec because I had no idea how it worked nor did I really figure out the healing part of it until late Wod
I know he quit the game but it's one of the many questions I had about that spec and why did he play it {basically he was immortal in pvp and I feel that was why}
Feral/Resto Druid (I think it was 30/21 for swiftmend?) was a hilariously slippery build for running flags. It does feel like the move toward Diablo-style talent trees lists, for all it gained in ease of use, cost us something too.
Yeah people complained about "non viable talent specs" a lot but that could mostly be met with "for elite min-max raiding". I feel like the talents after they did away with the talent treats in cata were far more cookie cutter. There were 3 choices per talent grouping and you either had the sub-optimal passive talents or the optimal raid talent.
Didn't pick the optimal ones? Good luck raiding or doing mythics!
Judging by the golems in Westfall being bleed immune, I'm going to go ahead and guess all of MC will be fire immune or resistant.
Yay auto loot and scolling text are in the game as well as the Oh I'm dancing again! Hope you and your friends are enjoying the show.
I forgot how much I hated leveling priests then I was quite the sadist doing 9 to various levels {usually around 40 to 50 I would give up and delete them Even after that one incident in Wrath where my brother and I could not keep up the Death Knight tank and how much he chewed us out I was so dismayed I wanted to delete and start over again just my brother pointed out how bad of a habit I had doing that and how much I hated leveling them even though I became a pro at it.
Came flooding back to me as I played one
Did someone call for a vanilla Disc priest?
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Also yeah, doing 50 levels then starting over is kind of like self flagelation.
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Improved Mana Burn was handy for a few fights too, plus in PvP. (DEAR LORD DO I MISS IT ON LIVE.)
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
BWL was actually worse for Fire than Molten Core, shockingly, lol. 5/8 bosses were fire immune and the remaining three were the easiest bosses in the instance. It's most telling on Vael where melee get a huge dps buff and casters are only brought so the "targets people with mana" effect doesn't kill all the healers right away.
Well, remember in vanilla raiding is all there was. You couldn't gear yourself through PvP, the rank 14 grind was a joke, it took such an incredible account of time grinding, and in the days of insane queue times, you're not getting Grand Marshal if raiding is too much of a time sink.
You couldn't collect badges for epics from 5 mans or whatever, there was only the slow creep of newer dungeons having better designed loot.
And if you were raiding or seriously pvping and had a spec for that, well that was the spec you used for everything because it cost a lot to switch and there was no dual spec.
Not everyone needed/wanted to min-max end game content.
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I thought it was working when I was playing the demo, but I wasn't paying too much attention.
PSN: Bizazedo
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Yea and plenty of people just liked standing around in Ironforge chatting, too, and I'm sure they'll all still have their fun, but then there are the people in modern WoW expansions who had experienced varying levels of "don't want to commit the time to raiding? No problem here are badges or reps you can progress with, or here, do pvp for a reasonable gear progression as well or here are some crafted items you can work towards or even more recent Diablo style keep doing quests and sometimes the RNG will spit out a truly awesome piece" and if any of them try the classic server I think they'll be disappointed by "raid or nothing" position. It's particularly going to be a hassle for them if they want to pvp because a raid geared pvp team is the best pvp team.
And if they're raiding they'll have to use a raid spec. Although honestly it's not like a Prot or Ret pally was useful in 5 mans, either. There was a window where everyone just ran 10-15 man raids through Scholo and Strat but I assume we're going live without that debacle right? These instances were pretty tough, in appropriate gear I really don't think you can tolerate carrying someone performing half as well as a viable spec.
Although that just reminds me of how bad the loot was in the opening dungeons. Sure, melee had meaningful gear upgrades, but casters had literally no useful gear. Int didn't raise spell power, just mana and very slightly crit chance (like 1% every 100 int IIRC) and there was no +spell power gear in those 5 mans. Even %crit and %hit gear was from later, better itemized places like Dire Maul.
The more I think about this classic server the more of an unpleasant experience it seems like. I loved the community in vanilla WoW and that's what kept me hooked, but I feel like that community was there through TBC and beginning WotLK too, and that you can recapture that spirit by rolling back some features without going all the way back to World of Roguecraft.
My friend and I are hoping they do what Everquest does and eventually make it a progression thing and stop at Wrath cause Wrath was our favorite expansion.
The classic server definitely wont be meant for everyone. It almost feels like a spiteful move on Blizzards part. People kept asking for classic so now they get classic as pure as humanly possible. No QoL changes just classic in all its frustration.
I know it isn't a spiteful thing and it is cool they are doing it but when people talk about how they are disappointed in a lack of updated stuff it makes me think how Blizzard could absolutely say, "this is what you asked for".
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Agree for the most part, Lan, but the above doesn't feel right. Strat and Scholo were doable without being an ultra spec'd Raider. Lower Blackrock Spire I always remembered as being the toughest of the 5-mans (and length had a lot to do with that), but if you actually CC'd (god I miss needing to CC), you could carry someone as it were.
It's going to take awhile for a lot of people to hit 60 and be raid ready, anyways, and the old raids were doable without all 40 being actual raiders. My PvP guild were pure PvP'ers and HATED PvE and were definitely not focused on it, but I still managed to drag them to Ragnaros.
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Edit: WRT specs I think 5 mans were fine for non optimal specs of dps classes, but you definitely would run into issues with druid or paladin tanking and ret and balance dps at least were sad jokes, I don't remember how low feral dps was. Basically, warriors were the only class that actually had two roles it could do, and for some reason it took a while for people to figure out Fury was good
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This server is great for fostering nostalgia threads like this one but man, I'm not sure who's going to play on it lol.
As for who's going to play on it....the nostalgia in me wants to so hard, but I know I don't have the time (or the guild for that matter). Makes me sad.
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