for some reason it took a while for people to figure out Fury was good
It's because we were super gear-dependent. Fury did okay in MC, started to pick up steam in BWL, and were absolute monsters in AQ40. They were still crazy good in Naxx40, as well, but fell short of mages just because of all the fights there that punished melee.
Fury is fucking STUPID with gear, though; like once you hit 2k attack power in Classic your Bloodthirst hit harder than Execute.
Hunters are kind of the opposite, though; I hear people all the time tell me that Hunters were OP in Vanilla, and they were, just to a point -- classic Hunters weren't especially gear-dependent, so they were putting up pretty good numbers in MC and even BWL, but then they started dropping off. Especially by the time they hit Naxx40, Hunters were in a real bad spot.
One of the main rival Alliance guilds had a Fury warrior who insisted on PvP'ng as such. It was interesting. They made their character do work, though, we had some epic battles.
As for who's going to play on it....the nostalgia in me wants to so hard, but I know I don't have the time (or the guild for that matter). Makes me sad.
I think thats part of the beauty of classic. There isnt a never ending gear treadmill. Some top pieces of gear are quest greens, some are drops from lvl 45 dungeons, and others are crafted or from quests in sub 60 dungeons. The thing about vanilla is that things didnt actually scale that much from blues to at least Aq40. And sure getting rank 14 is never happening for me, but ill be able to get around 8-10 and there is still a lot of gear available at that rank. If you dont play a caster the weapons at 14 dont matter anyway. Rep only matters if you want to craft something specific (thorium brotherhood) or you get it naturally just doing stuff (zandalar tribe and cenarion circle). You could probably get by in vanilla with less playtime than live. There were weekend warrior dads in my vanilla guild we only saw at raid time, and nobody had a problem with that. Not having to grind emissaries, deal with m+, and multiple raid difficulties, as well and the clusterfuck of arenas sounds like a dream.
What? No, raid gear was the best gear and each raid tier was better than the last, no quest green was a top piece of gear. Sure at the game's launch Molten Core had some lulzy items, dropping both Tier1 and Tier2 and e.g. the Tier1 Mage gear had Agility on it for some reason, but I feel fairly confident this classic server will have the fixed loot tables from the start. So then even MC gear will be the best, with maybe a few Dire Maul drops in contention.
The longer the expansion went on the more true this was, and it was honestly pretty unfair to be Naxx geared and queue up against people who didn't raid, this is the whole reason they added easily attainable epic PvP gear in TBC. And the Resilience stat and HP inflation so you don't get 1 shot any more.
I will agree that classic had less nonsense chores though, as I definitely was a "log in for raid times" kinda guy most of the time. The biggest chore you had to do was farm for mats for all your consumables, because especially in Naxx, dear God did we churn through consumables. I made a rogue alt specifically to stealth-farm SM Graveyard for Grave Moss for Shadow Protection Potions.
The classic server definitely wont be meant for everyone. It almost feels like a spiteful move on Blizzards part. People kept asking for classic so now they get classic as pure as humanly possible. No QoL changes just classic in all its frustration.
I know it isn't a spiteful thing and it is cool they are doing it but when people talk about how they are disappointed in a lack of updated stuff it makes me think how Blizzard could absolutely say, "this is what you asked for".
"Blizzard are a bunch of jerks, we want a vanilla server!"
Blizzard sets up a vanilla server.
"Blizzard are a bunch of jerks, they gave us a vanilla server!"
What? No, raid gear was the best gear and each raid tier was better than the last, no quest green was a top piece of gear. Sure at the game's launch Molten Core had some lulzy items, dropping both Tier1 and Tier2 and e.g. the Tier1 Mage gear had Agility on it for some reason, but I feel fairly confident this classic server will have the fixed loot tables from the start. So then even MC gear will be the best, with maybe a few Dire Maul drops in contention.
The longer the expansion went on the more true this was, and it was honestly pretty unfair to be Naxx geared and queue up against people who didn't raid, this is the whole reason they added easily attainable epic PvP gear in TBC. And the Resilience stat and HP inflation so you don't get 1 shot any more.
I will agree that classic had less nonsense chores though, as I definitely was a "log in for raid times" kinda guy most of the time. The biggest chore you had to do was farm for mats for all your consumables, because especially in Naxx, dear God did we churn through consumables. I made a rogue alt specifically to stealth-farm SM Graveyard for Grave Moss for Shadow Protection Potions.
The VAST majority of people did not do Naxx though. A large majority didnt even do AQ40. And most of the gear scaling up until naxx was just larger hp pools. Like said earlier, int just gave more mana, and spell power numbers werent really high on gear. Melee scaled a bit better because they got attack power from their main stat and 1/2 attack power from their off stat (like str for rogues). Not to mention how much weapon damage figured into everything. The damage from MC to Naxx really wasnt that insane though, people just had bigger mana pools to sustain the damage longer and had more health to play with. Even in pvp, a rogue in like full shadowcraft for example could still hold their own against better geared people. Since arena didnt exist pvp was either in BGs or in an open world environment so there were always other things to equalize fights through mobs in the area, consumable, and multiple people. I still say almost nothing mattered in vanilla. for some classes I think you could even feasibly function with a 0/0/0 spec. It wouldnt be good by any means, but you could do it. And the biggest part about gear that mattered for raids was having enough stamina to survive boss aoe, and enough mana to live long enough to down bosses. They didnt even have enrage timers for MOST bosses in vanilla. Vael and Patchwerk were notable exceptions but most fights you could beat by just surviving.
I think you underestimate how armor was tied to ilevel and how much armor a warrior with purples had VS one with greens. The amount of physical EH a raid geared warrior picked up was pretty big.
Yeah. Despite me debating Lanlaorn earlier, raid gear, especially by AQ / Naxx, some of it made a huge difference in PvP. Non raiders got smoked (which my PvP brethren HATED and how I even got them into MC to begin with).
Which reminds me, are we getting original Earthshaker or nerfed Earthshaker?
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
They didn't even add in area loot? Welp I hope people enjoy this but it seems like they aren't doing the WoW Classic Remastered kind of thing I was hoping for. Those little quality of life improvements could really help make old WoW more enjoyable without changing it too much.
I can see your argument and even agree but once you start adding QoL features where do you stop? Collectively, it's the QoL features in modern WoW that are responsible for much of the immersion having been lost between classic and now, and while no single feature is responsible for it, you have to stop somewhere.
The classic server definitely wont be meant for everyone. It almost feels like a spiteful move on Blizzards part. People kept asking for classic so now they get classic as pure as humanly possible. No QoL changes just classic in all its frustration.
I know it isn't a spiteful thing and it is cool they are doing it but when people talk about how they are disappointed in a lack of updated stuff it makes me think how Blizzard could absolutely say, "this is what you asked for".
"Blizzard are a bunch of jerks, we want a vanilla server!"
Blizzard sets up a vanilla server.
"Blizzard are a bunch of jerks, they gave us a vanilla server!"
I did probably 100 solo stealth runs for that stupid thing on my rogue in vanilla and never got it. It's part of the reason i said fuck it and let all the other rogues in the guild fight over daggers while I got all the 1h weapons because all the warriors were arms or had pvp weapons.
Julies dagger is where its at. that was a damn fun *fast* dagger, and I wish I could have equipped two of them.
I've said it before, but it was fucking amazeballs for ripping aggro on vaelestraz. equip dagger, build infinite rage, and then alternate between heroic strike and sunder and vael would *hate* me.
made threading the hate charts on that speed fight easy as pie.
StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
I got weirdly lucky on my Rogue with drops. Got a Barman Shanker fairly quick. Got the dagger off the satyr in purple side Maraudon in 1 run. Once I started raiding it took about 4 weeks to get full Nightslayer armor, Corehound Tooth, and Perdition Blade.
It was pretty great.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
My rogue was such a slog to get geared. I must have run ubrs 100times to get both dal rends. Never ever and still to this day have never seen ghosthelm drop in brd. The one crowning achievemt on my rogue is that i got both of the ZG claws in the same run. The claws arent even available on live anymore, but every now and then ill bust em out to turn into the tiger boss.
Yeah. Despite me debating Lanlaorn earlier, raid gear, especially by AQ / Naxx, some of it made a huge difference in PvP. Non raiders got smoked (which my PvP brethren HATED and how I even got them into MC to begin with).
Which reminds me, are we getting original Earthshaker or nerfed Earthshaker?
As someone who had a rogue in a nice mix of Naxx and AQ gear, with matching weapons, I can safely say there was little point in PVP if you didn't have gear to match mine. I still remember /sorrying a poor little druid I globaled. Cheap Shot -> Eviscerate, dead. I really did feel bad, that was just stupid. And I was AWFUL (er, still am) at PVP.
That was more that blizzard screwed up and made eviscerate actually scale with attack power in 1.12. You could already basically 100-0 people with an opener into cold blood evis anyway. The extra rank from aq20 + ap scaling was probably a bit much.
StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
Part of my wants to play a Rogue in classic again because I really enjoyed my Rogue in both PvE and PvP and I also enjoyed how absolutely bullshit my Rogue could be if I decided to use the right build.
I'm also tempted by the Warlock for the mount quest.
I feel like I should try something completely different though.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
What? No, raid gear was the best gear and each raid tier was better than the last, no quest green was a top piece of gear. Sure at the game's launch Molten Core had some lulzy items, dropping both Tier1 and Tier2 and e.g. the Tier1 Mage gear had Agility on it for some reason, but I feel fairly confident this classic server will have the fixed loot tables from the start. So then even MC gear will be the best, with maybe a few Dire Maul drops in contention.
The longer the expansion went on the more true this was, and it was honestly pretty unfair to be Naxx geared and queue up against people who didn't raid, this is the whole reason they added easily attainable epic PvP gear in TBC. And the Resilience stat and HP inflation so you don't get 1 shot any more.
I will agree that classic had less nonsense chores though, as I definitely was a "log in for raid times" kinda guy most of the time. The biggest chore you had to do was farm for mats for all your consumables, because especially in Naxx, dear God did we churn through consumables. I made a rogue alt specifically to stealth-farm SM Graveyard for Grave Moss for Shadow Protection Potions.
The VAST majority of people did not do Naxx though. A large majority didnt even do AQ40. And most of the gear scaling up until naxx was just larger hp pools. Like said earlier, int just gave more mana, and spell power numbers werent really high on gear. Melee scaled a bit better because they got attack power from their main stat and 1/2 attack power from their off stat (like str for rogues). Not to mention how much weapon damage figured into everything. The damage from MC to Naxx really wasnt that insane though, people just had bigger mana pools to sustain the damage longer and had more health to play with. Even in pvp, a rogue in like full shadowcraft for example could still hold their own against better geared people. Since arena didnt exist pvp was either in BGs or in an open world environment so there were always other things to equalize fights through mobs in the area, consumable, and multiple people. I still say almost nothing mattered in vanilla. for some classes I think you could even feasibly function with a 0/0/0 spec. It wouldnt be good by any means, but you could do it. And the biggest part about gear that mattered for raids was having enough stamina to survive boss aoe, and enough mana to live long enough to down bosses. They didnt even have enrage timers for MOST bosses in vanilla. Vael and Patchwerk were notable exceptions but most fights you could beat by just surviving.
The gear was only stupid at launch, and once they figured out how their own game worked they reworked it all. Tier 1 was an ok upgrade, but Tier 2 was serious power creep, the caster gear all had real stats like spellpower and the set bonuses were some of the most broken ever made. They had to nerf the healer 3 piece spirit bonuses in TBC because otherwise they'd still be mandatory.
Raid gear was really strong, and remember even ZG was a 20 man raid, what today would be full raid group raiding.
This topic had me looking through some of my old screenshots and man, vanilla raiding was so ridiculous, I had forgotten how on our first few Loatheb kills we'd have an alt turn in Onyxia or Nefarian's head for the Dragonslayer city wide buff, a massive DPS boost. In those kill screenshots I had 4 elixirs, a flask, a weapon oil, chugged potions on cooldown as well as random non-potion timer items like tuber roots, demonic mana rocks, etc. The buffs provided almost as much power as our worn gear.
I'm really nostalgic for the communities of those first three expansions, but the game mechanics had some real problems.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
They didn't even add in area loot? Welp I hope people enjoy this but it seems like they aren't doing the WoW Classic Remastered kind of thing I was hoping for. Those little quality of life improvements could really help make old WoW more enjoyable without changing it too much.
I can see your argument and even agree but once you start adding QoL features where do you stop? Collectively, it's the QoL features in modern WoW that are responsible for much of the immersion having been lost between classic and now, and while no single feature is responsible for it, you have to stop somewhere.
Most would likely agree that AoE looting and meeting stone summoning are "okay" for "classic" wow. Maybe even the loot changes that allowed people to pick up quest items once the other group members were done.
But, even without it. I likely won't group with randos to loot boar intestines though.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
They didn't even add in area loot? Welp I hope people enjoy this but it seems like they aren't doing the WoW Classic Remastered kind of thing I was hoping for. Those little quality of life improvements could really help make old WoW more enjoyable without changing it too much.
I can see your argument and even agree but once you start adding QoL features where do you stop? Collectively, it's the QoL features in modern WoW that are responsible for much of the immersion having been lost between classic and now, and while no single feature is responsible for it, you have to stop somewhere.
Well if there's sharding they've already changed a lot of the stuff that made classic wow classic. If I'm not going to run into the same people repeatedly in multiple zones that are levelling up at the same pace that's a big change. You can easily make some small quality of life changes without drastically changing things. You stop before the drastic changes.
All this means is that I won't be playing WoW Classic because some of those things are more frustrating than fun and I'd like the old feel with some modern improvements, but that's not what they're doing. I think they're mistaken that more people want that complete recreation than would enjoy a "Remastered" type thing but there's no real way for any of us to know for sure. Plenty of other games for me to play so no great loss.
I'm simultaneously very excited and very afraid of this coming out. My absolute favourite part of WoW has always been the open world leveling+pvp experience, which is what Vanilla was all about. Even now I still love leveling through the world from level 1, but it sucks how dead the world is. I also miss the way some of the classes worked back then, and yes I loved the old talent trees.
I would love to sink my teeth back into that experience, but at the same I fear for my life if I were to do it.
They didn't even add in area loot? Welp I hope people enjoy this but it seems like they aren't doing the WoW Classic Remastered kind of thing I was hoping for. Those little quality of life improvements could really help make old WoW more enjoyable without changing it too much.
I can see your argument and even agree but once you start adding QoL features where do you stop? Collectively, it's the QoL features in modern WoW that are responsible for much of the immersion having been lost between classic and now, and while no single feature is responsible for it, you have to stop somewhere.
Well if there's sharding they've already changed a lot of the stuff that made classic wow classic. If I'm not going to run into the same people repeatedly in multiple zones that are levelling up at the same pace that's a big change. You can easily make some small quality of life changes without drastically changing things. You stop before the drastic changes.
All this means is that I won't be playing WoW Classic because some of those things are more frustrating than fun and I'd like the old feel with some modern improvements, but that's not what they're doing. I think they're mistaken that more people want that complete recreation than would enjoy a "Remastered" type thing but there's no real way for any of us to know for sure. Plenty of other games for me to play so no great loss.
Guys calm down! (No Sharding thread)
As you've noticed, the Classic Demo does have realm sharding. This is to let as many people as possible experience it without technical issues such as server capacity or spawn density getting in the way.
Longer term, we know how crucial it is to the Classic experience for you to see your friends when you walk into Stormwind or when you’re helping them on a quest you’ve already completed. And there should only ever be one Kazzak on a realm, no matter how many people are waiting for him to spawn.
We’re still looking at how we can best deliver an authentic Classic experience at launch, and in the weeks and months that follow - both in terms of gameplay and community. You won’t see phasing (which is tied to specific quests that don't exist in Classic) or cross-realm zones (which combine multiple realms together) in Classic. However, realm sharding is one of the best tools we have to keep realms stable when hundreds of players are swarming the same initial few zones and killing the same few mobs (like they will be at the launch of Classic). To that end, we do believe that some form of sharding may be helpful, especially in those early days. But we recognize that a cohesive world is critical to WoW Classic and are committed to bringing that to you.
They didn't even add in area loot? Welp I hope people enjoy this but it seems like they aren't doing the WoW Classic Remastered kind of thing I was hoping for. Those little quality of life improvements could really help make old WoW more enjoyable without changing it too much.
I can see your argument and even agree but once you start adding QoL features where do you stop? Collectively, it's the QoL features in modern WoW that are responsible for much of the immersion having been lost between classic and now, and while no single feature is responsible for it, you have to stop somewhere.
Most would likely agree that AoE looting and meeting stone summoning are "okay" for "classic" wow. Maybe even the loot changes that allowed people to pick up quest items once the other group members were done.
But, even without it. I likely won't group with randos to loot boar intestines though.
Meeting Stone summoning: No. One of the things that made World of Warcraft what it was was that people had to actually travel through the world to get where they wanted to go. This helped make the world feel like a real place, and made the dungeons feel like they were real locations within that world.
I have no doubt many people will say "whatever, I just want to do my dungeon and not waste my valuable time traveling there". And to them I say "find a Warlock and ask/pay them nicely".
This on
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H3KnucklesBut we decide which is rightand which is an illusion.Registered Userregular
edited November 2018
It would probably be more trouble than it's worth, but I think the coolest thing they could do short of rolling patch realms, would be to have realms of each type (PVE, PVP, RP, RP-PVP) at the last patch for Vanilla & each expansion. Just let people pick whichever era they liked most and live there, or play through a realm as it was, then pay transfer to the next and work your way down through the ages.
They didn't even add in area loot? Welp I hope people enjoy this but it seems like they aren't doing the WoW Classic Remastered kind of thing I was hoping for. Those little quality of life improvements could really help make old WoW more enjoyable without changing it too much.
I can see your argument and even agree but once you start adding QoL features where do you stop? Collectively, it's the QoL features in modern WoW that are responsible for much of the immersion having been lost between classic and now, and while no single feature is responsible for it, you have to stop somewhere.
Well if there's sharding they've already changed a lot of the stuff that made classic wow classic. If I'm not going to run into the same people repeatedly in multiple zones that are levelling up at the same pace that's a big change. You can easily make some small quality of life changes without drastically changing things. You stop before the drastic changes.
All this means is that I won't be playing WoW Classic because some of those things are more frustrating than fun and I'd like the old feel with some modern improvements, but that's not what they're doing. I think they're mistaken that more people want that complete recreation than would enjoy a "Remastered" type thing but there's no real way for any of us to know for sure. Plenty of other games for me to play so no great loss.
Guys calm down! (No Sharding thread)
As you've noticed, the Classic Demo does have realm sharding. This is to let as many people as possible experience it without technical issues such as server capacity or spawn density getting in the way.
Longer term, we know how crucial it is to the Classic experience for you to see your friends when you walk into Stormwind or when you’re helping them on a quest you’ve already completed. And there should only ever be one Kazzak on a realm, no matter how many people are waiting for him to spawn.
We’re still looking at how we can best deliver an authentic Classic experience at launch, and in the weeks and months that follow - both in terms of gameplay and community. You won’t see phasing (which is tied to specific quests that don't exist in Classic) or cross-realm zones (which combine multiple realms together) in Classic. However, realm sharding is one of the best tools we have to keep realms stable when hundreds of players are swarming the same initial few zones and killing the same few mobs (like they will be at the launch of Classic). To that end, we do believe that some form of sharding may be helpful, especially in those early days. But we recognize that a cohesive world is critical to WoW Classic and are committed to bringing that to you.
The way I read this, they just want to enable sharding during the initial rush, the first few days, to prevent realm instability. That seems reasonable to me.
They didn't even add in area loot? Welp I hope people enjoy this but it seems like they aren't doing the WoW Classic Remastered kind of thing I was hoping for. Those little quality of life improvements could really help make old WoW more enjoyable without changing it too much.
I can see your argument and even agree but once you start adding QoL features where do you stop? Collectively, it's the QoL features in modern WoW that are responsible for much of the immersion having been lost between classic and now, and while no single feature is responsible for it, you have to stop somewhere.
Most would likely agree that AoE looting and meeting stone summoning are "okay" for "classic" wow. Maybe even the loot changes that allowed people to pick up quest items once the other group members were done.
But, even without it. I likely won't group with randos to loot boar intestines though.
Meeting Stone summoning: No. One of the things that made World of Warcraft what it was was that people had to actually travel through the world to get where they wanted to go. This helped make the world feel like a real place, and made the dungeons feel like they were real locations within that world.
I have no doubt many people will say "whatever, I just want to do my dungeon and not waste my valuable time traveling there". And to them I say "find a Warlock and ask/pay them nicely".
I think you and others are vastly underestimating what traveling time means for places like Mara as alliance, though (or the equivalent horde area)
Finding that tank after the last one left because they overpulled and wiped means, easily 1.5 hours of waiting and traveling, since, you know, you don't have mounts yet probably.
I don't really have skin in this battle, just saying it's one of those things that doesn't hurt and helps more than people think. It's definitely not anywhere near as bad as LFG is at killing the game.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I think you and others are vastly underestimating what traveling time means for places like Mara as alliance, though (or the equivalent horde area)
Finding that tank after the last one left because they overpulled and wiped means, easily 1.5 hours of waiting and traveling, since, you know, you don't have mounts yet probably.
I don't really have skin in this battle, just saying it's one of those things that doesn't hurt and helps more than people think. It's definitely not anywhere near as bad as LFG is at killing the game.
I don't think we are. Part of the game was getting to that place and if Alliance had to wait / group up to getting to the dungeon to avoid Horde PvP squads (and vice versa), then that's what makes it a world.
I know I have NEVER done the Stranglethorn quests as my Horde characters due to PvP .
PvE, yeah, no PvP to deal with, but it's still part of the world. Being summoned avoids seeing random stuff / groups of players / situations going on the zones you through. A dungeon Alliance, say, doesn't run a lot means that that loot for Alliance players rarer from, say, the Horde dominated zones and obviously us Hordies never went for Stockades or the Defias one (usually).
I know it sounds weird, but, a lot of the requests / desire for Classic is that it really was a "World". Current WoW is a theme park by comparison. Click, go here, click, go there, no effort. It doesn't really immerse the player or get them to feel a part of the world with rapid transit.
I know, it sounds weird, but as WoW was "Everquest done right", that's the idea.
XBL: Bizazedo
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
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StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
They didn't even add in area loot? Welp I hope people enjoy this but it seems like they aren't doing the WoW Classic Remastered kind of thing I was hoping for. Those little quality of life improvements could really help make old WoW more enjoyable without changing it too much.
I can see your argument and even agree but once you start adding QoL features where do you stop? Collectively, it's the QoL features in modern WoW that are responsible for much of the immersion having been lost between classic and now, and while no single feature is responsible for it, you have to stop somewhere.
Most would likely agree that AoE looting and meeting stone summoning are "okay" for "classic" wow. Maybe even the loot changes that allowed people to pick up quest items once the other group members were done.
But, even without it. I likely won't group with randos to loot boar intestines though.
Meeting Stone summoning: No. One of the things that made World of Warcraft what it was was that people had to actually travel through the world to get where they wanted to go. This helped make the world feel like a real place, and made the dungeons feel like they were real locations within that world.
I have no doubt many people will say "whatever, I just want to do my dungeon and not waste my valuable time traveling there". And to them I say "find a Warlock and ask/pay them nicely".
I think you and others are vastly underestimating what traveling time means for places like Mara as alliance, though (or the equivalent horde area)
Finding that tank after the last one left because they overpulled and wiped means, easily 1.5 hours of waiting and traveling, since, you know, you don't have mounts yet probably.
I don't really have skin in this battle, just saying it's one of those things that doesn't hurt and helps more than people think. It's definitely not anywhere near as bad as LFG is at killing the game.
Maraudan was 43+ depending on the side so most people should have at least the first mount since it wasn't that expensive.
I definitely agree that traveling to dungeons brought the world to life. On PvP servers it could also end up being dangerous. There was a kind of excitement traveling to dungeons. I barely even know where the dungeons are at anymore in legion and bfa.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
They didn't even add in area loot? Welp I hope people enjoy this but it seems like they aren't doing the WoW Classic Remastered kind of thing I was hoping for. Those little quality of life improvements could really help make old WoW more enjoyable without changing it too much.
I can see your argument and even agree but once you start adding QoL features where do you stop? Collectively, it's the QoL features in modern WoW that are responsible for much of the immersion having been lost between classic and now, and while no single feature is responsible for it, you have to stop somewhere.
Well if there's sharding they've already changed a lot of the stuff that made classic wow classic. If I'm not going to run into the same people repeatedly in multiple zones that are levelling up at the same pace that's a big change. You can easily make some small quality of life changes without drastically changing things. You stop before the drastic changes.
All this means is that I won't be playing WoW Classic because some of those things are more frustrating than fun and I'd like the old feel with some modern improvements, but that's not what they're doing. I think they're mistaken that more people want that complete recreation than would enjoy a "Remastered" type thing but there's no real way for any of us to know for sure. Plenty of other games for me to play so no great loss.
Guys calm down! (No Sharding thread)
As you've noticed, the Classic Demo does have realm sharding. This is to let as many people as possible experience it without technical issues such as server capacity or spawn density getting in the way.
Longer term, we know how crucial it is to the Classic experience for you to see your friends when you walk into Stormwind or when you’re helping them on a quest you’ve already completed. And there should only ever be one Kazzak on a realm, no matter how many people are waiting for him to spawn.
We’re still looking at how we can best deliver an authentic Classic experience at launch, and in the weeks and months that follow - both in terms of gameplay and community. You won’t see phasing (which is tied to specific quests that don't exist in Classic) or cross-realm zones (which combine multiple realms together) in Classic. However, realm sharding is one of the best tools we have to keep realms stable when hundreds of players are swarming the same initial few zones and killing the same few mobs (like they will be at the launch of Classic). To that end, we do believe that some form of sharding may be helpful, especially in those early days. But we recognize that a cohesive world is critical to WoW Classic and are committed to bringing that to you.
The way I read this, they just want to enable sharding during the initial rush, the first few days, to prevent realm instability. That seems reasonable to me.
when i have a game plan to level the first 10 levels inside 1.5hours to break out south durotar and the crowd... sharding might not be a bad thing, maybe.
fighting for mobs is gonna be hard against initial range users.
no meeting stone summons for my guild meant that the first warlock to get somewhere now had to port in 37 people and the least popular mage then had to make drinks for them all
They didn't even add in area loot? Welp I hope people enjoy this but it seems like they aren't doing the WoW Classic Remastered kind of thing I was hoping for. Those little quality of life improvements could really help make old WoW more enjoyable without changing it too much.
I can see your argument and even agree but once you start adding QoL features where do you stop? Collectively, it's the QoL features in modern WoW that are responsible for much of the immersion having been lost between classic and now, and while no single feature is responsible for it, you have to stop somewhere.
Well if there's sharding they've already changed a lot of the stuff that made classic wow classic. If I'm not going to run into the same people repeatedly in multiple zones that are levelling up at the same pace that's a big change. You can easily make some small quality of life changes without drastically changing things. You stop before the drastic changes.
All this means is that I won't be playing WoW Classic because some of those things are more frustrating than fun and I'd like the old feel with some modern improvements, but that's not what they're doing. I think they're mistaken that more people want that complete recreation than would enjoy a "Remastered" type thing but there's no real way for any of us to know for sure. Plenty of other games for me to play so no great loss.
Guys calm down! (No Sharding thread)
As you've noticed, the Classic Demo does have realm sharding. This is to let as many people as possible experience it without technical issues such as server capacity or spawn density getting in the way.
Longer term, we know how crucial it is to the Classic experience for you to see your friends when you walk into Stormwind or when you’re helping them on a quest you’ve already completed. And there should only ever be one Kazzak on a realm, no matter how many people are waiting for him to spawn.
We’re still looking at how we can best deliver an authentic Classic experience at launch, and in the weeks and months that follow - both in terms of gameplay and community. You won’t see phasing (which is tied to specific quests that don't exist in Classic) or cross-realm zones (which combine multiple realms together) in Classic. However, realm sharding is one of the best tools we have to keep realms stable when hundreds of players are swarming the same initial few zones and killing the same few mobs (like they will be at the launch of Classic). To that end, we do believe that some form of sharding may be helpful, especially in those early days. But we recognize that a cohesive world is critical to WoW Classic and are committed to bringing that to you.
The way I read this, they just want to enable sharding during the initial rush, the first few days, to prevent realm instability. That seems reasonable to me.
That's how i read it too. Access to classic is free with the regular wow subscription, not i don't see them spinning up hundreds of new classic relms. Meaning the first day classic is live, the entire population of BfA will be making a lvl 1 (plus some returning players that may have been gone since the Bush/Thrall administration) on the handful of classic relms, even if ultimately they don't end up leveling it or even making it to lvl 2.
no meeting stone summons for my guild meant that the first warlock to get somewhere now had to port in 37 people and the least popular mage then had to make drinks for them all
Yeah there's really no point in saying "just experience the world!" when it really just means "at least one warlock is mandatory for this group"
As much as I am in love with the idea of classic wow and exploring the world what it really means is everyone's going to just bumrush into the instance from the closest flight path avoiding literally everything, maybe dying 3-4 times especially if it's mara because they forgot the exact path to get into the dungeon from the surface.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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It's because we were super gear-dependent. Fury did okay in MC, started to pick up steam in BWL, and were absolute monsters in AQ40. They were still crazy good in Naxx40, as well, but fell short of mages just because of all the fights there that punished melee.
Fury is fucking STUPID with gear, though; like once you hit 2k attack power in Classic your Bloodthirst hit harder than Execute.
Hunters are kind of the opposite, though; I hear people all the time tell me that Hunters were OP in Vanilla, and they were, just to a point -- classic Hunters weren't especially gear-dependent, so they were putting up pretty good numbers in MC and even BWL, but then they started dropping off. Especially by the time they hit Naxx40, Hunters were in a real bad spot.
I think thats part of the beauty of classic. There isnt a never ending gear treadmill. Some top pieces of gear are quest greens, some are drops from lvl 45 dungeons, and others are crafted or from quests in sub 60 dungeons. The thing about vanilla is that things didnt actually scale that much from blues to at least Aq40. And sure getting rank 14 is never happening for me, but ill be able to get around 8-10 and there is still a lot of gear available at that rank. If you dont play a caster the weapons at 14 dont matter anyway. Rep only matters if you want to craft something specific (thorium brotherhood) or you get it naturally just doing stuff (zandalar tribe and cenarion circle). You could probably get by in vanilla with less playtime than live. There were weekend warrior dads in my vanilla guild we only saw at raid time, and nobody had a problem with that. Not having to grind emissaries, deal with m+, and multiple raid difficulties, as well and the clusterfuck of arenas sounds like a dream.
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The longer the expansion went on the more true this was, and it was honestly pretty unfair to be Naxx geared and queue up against people who didn't raid, this is the whole reason they added easily attainable epic PvP gear in TBC. And the Resilience stat and HP inflation so you don't get 1 shot any more.
I will agree that classic had less nonsense chores though, as I definitely was a "log in for raid times" kinda guy most of the time. The biggest chore you had to do was farm for mats for all your consumables, because especially in Naxx, dear God did we churn through consumables. I made a rogue alt specifically to stealth-farm SM Graveyard for Grave Moss for Shadow Protection Potions.
Blizzard sets up a vanilla server.
"Blizzard are a bunch of jerks, they gave us a vanilla server!"
The VAST majority of people did not do Naxx though. A large majority didnt even do AQ40. And most of the gear scaling up until naxx was just larger hp pools. Like said earlier, int just gave more mana, and spell power numbers werent really high on gear. Melee scaled a bit better because they got attack power from their main stat and 1/2 attack power from their off stat (like str for rogues). Not to mention how much weapon damage figured into everything. The damage from MC to Naxx really wasnt that insane though, people just had bigger mana pools to sustain the damage longer and had more health to play with. Even in pvp, a rogue in like full shadowcraft for example could still hold their own against better geared people. Since arena didnt exist pvp was either in BGs or in an open world environment so there were always other things to equalize fights through mobs in the area, consumable, and multiple people. I still say almost nothing mattered in vanilla. for some classes I think you could even feasibly function with a 0/0/0 spec. It wouldnt be good by any means, but you could do it. And the biggest part about gear that mattered for raids was having enough stamina to survive boss aoe, and enough mana to live long enough to down bosses. They didnt even have enrage timers for MOST bosses in vanilla. Vael and Patchwerk were notable exceptions but most fights you could beat by just surviving.
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Which reminds me, are we getting original Earthshaker or nerfed Earthshaker?
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CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
I can see your argument and even agree but once you start adding QoL features where do you stop? Collectively, it's the QoL features in modern WoW that are responsible for much of the immersion having been lost between classic and now, and while no single feature is responsible for it, you have to stop somewhere.
Obligatory
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I've said it before, but it was fucking amazeballs for ripping aggro on vaelestraz. equip dagger, build infinite rage, and then alternate between heroic strike and sunder and vael would *hate* me.
made threading the hate charts on that speed fight easy as pie.
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It was pretty great.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
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As someone who had a rogue in a nice mix of Naxx and AQ gear, with matching weapons, I can safely say there was little point in PVP if you didn't have gear to match mine. I still remember /sorrying a poor little druid I globaled. Cheap Shot -> Eviscerate, dead. I really did feel bad, that was just stupid. And I was AWFUL (er, still am) at PVP.
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I'm also tempted by the Warlock for the mount quest.
I feel like I should try something completely different though.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
The gear was only stupid at launch, and once they figured out how their own game worked they reworked it all. Tier 1 was an ok upgrade, but Tier 2 was serious power creep, the caster gear all had real stats like spellpower and the set bonuses were some of the most broken ever made. They had to nerf the healer 3 piece spirit bonuses in TBC because otherwise they'd still be mandatory.
Raid gear was really strong, and remember even ZG was a 20 man raid, what today would be full raid group raiding.
This topic had me looking through some of my old screenshots and man, vanilla raiding was so ridiculous, I had forgotten how on our first few Loatheb kills we'd have an alt turn in Onyxia or Nefarian's head for the Dragonslayer city wide buff, a massive DPS boost. In those kill screenshots I had 4 elixirs, a flask, a weapon oil, chugged potions on cooldown as well as random non-potion timer items like tuber roots, demonic mana rocks, etc. The buffs provided almost as much power as our worn gear.
I'm really nostalgic for the communities of those first three expansions, but the game mechanics had some real problems.
You can't separate these like that. The community was a direct result of many of the game mechanics requiring extensive cooperation
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Druid, as well.
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Most would likely agree that AoE looting and meeting stone summoning are "okay" for "classic" wow. Maybe even the loot changes that allowed people to pick up quest items once the other group members were done.
But, even without it. I likely won't group with randos to loot boar intestines though.
Well if there's sharding they've already changed a lot of the stuff that made classic wow classic. If I'm not going to run into the same people repeatedly in multiple zones that are levelling up at the same pace that's a big change. You can easily make some small quality of life changes without drastically changing things. You stop before the drastic changes.
All this means is that I won't be playing WoW Classic because some of those things are more frustrating than fun and I'd like the old feel with some modern improvements, but that's not what they're doing. I think they're mistaken that more people want that complete recreation than would enjoy a "Remastered" type thing but there's no real way for any of us to know for sure. Plenty of other games for me to play so no great loss.
I would love to sink my teeth back into that experience, but at the same I fear for my life if I were to do it.
Here's what they said regarding sharding:
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Meeting Stone summoning: No. One of the things that made World of Warcraft what it was was that people had to actually travel through the world to get where they wanted to go. This helped make the world feel like a real place, and made the dungeons feel like they were real locations within that world.
I have no doubt many people will say "whatever, I just want to do my dungeon and not waste my valuable time traveling there". And to them I say "find a Warlock and ask/pay them nicely".
The way I read this, they just want to enable sharding during the initial rush, the first few days, to prevent realm instability. That seems reasonable to me.
I think you and others are vastly underestimating what traveling time means for places like Mara as alliance, though (or the equivalent horde area)
Finding that tank after the last one left because they overpulled and wiped means, easily 1.5 hours of waiting and traveling, since, you know, you don't have mounts yet probably.
I don't really have skin in this battle, just saying it's one of those things that doesn't hurt and helps more than people think. It's definitely not anywhere near as bad as LFG is at killing the game.
I know I have NEVER done the Stranglethorn quests as my Horde characters due to PvP
PvE, yeah, no PvP to deal with, but it's still part of the world. Being summoned avoids seeing random stuff / groups of players / situations going on the zones you through. A dungeon Alliance, say, doesn't run a lot means that that loot for Alliance players rarer from, say, the Horde dominated zones and obviously us Hordies never went for Stockades or the Defias one (usually).
I know it sounds weird, but, a lot of the requests / desire for Classic is that it really was a "World". Current WoW is a theme park by comparison. Click, go here, click, go there, no effort. It doesn't really immerse the player or get them to feel a part of the world with rapid transit.
I know, it sounds weird, but as WoW was "Everquest done right", that's the idea.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
Maraudan was 43+ depending on the side so most people should have at least the first mount since it wasn't that expensive.
I definitely agree that traveling to dungeons brought the world to life. On PvP servers it could also end up being dangerous. There was a kind of excitement traveling to dungeons. I barely even know where the dungeons are at anymore in legion and bfa.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
when i have a game plan to level the first 10 levels inside 1.5hours to break out south durotar and the crowd... sharding might not be a bad thing, maybe.
fighting for mobs is gonna be hard against initial range users.
Steam - NotoriusBEN | Uplay - notoriusben | Xbox,Windows Live - ThatBEN
That's how i read it too. Access to classic is free with the regular wow subscription, not i don't see them spinning up hundreds of new classic relms. Meaning the first day classic is live, the entire population of BfA will be making a lvl 1 (plus some returning players that may have been gone since the Bush/Thrall administration) on the handful of classic relms, even if ultimately they don't end up leveling it or even making it to lvl 2.
Hence, sharding.
Yeah there's really no point in saying "just experience the world!" when it really just means "at least one warlock is mandatory for this group"
As much as I am in love with the idea of classic wow and exploring the world what it really means is everyone's going to just bumrush into the instance from the closest flight path avoiding literally everything, maybe dying 3-4 times especially if it's mara because they forgot the exact path to get into the dungeon from the surface.