I don't know but I'd guess instead of using a static number that grows with character level you use a die that grows with character lvl (coinflip, d4, d6, d8, etc...) but averages to what the static one would have been. It's an extra die to roll each time and introduces more randomness into anything affected by proficiency.
4d6, reroll 1s once, roll two arrays. If you're still sitting on an array with a combined bonus less than 9 after racial bonuses factor in and you can repeat the whole process.
I also use rolled proficiency which changes the game considerably.
Roll 2d4 and add 8d13 then subtract your birthday, then travel to those coordinates. You'll meet a woman wearing a red hat reading last month's Vogue. She's your contact. Count the diamonds in her brooch. She'll give you a matchbook.The four digit address is your first two stats, the last four of the phone number minus the number of diamonds in her brooch (you did count, didn't you?) are the next two. Convert the name of the bar on the matchbook into numerals using the onetime pad the Russian gave you, but remember to first convert the letters in ROT13. Those are the last two stats.
Or just use point buy or a standard array for Christ's sake.
4d6, reroll 1s once, roll two arrays. If you're still sitting on an array with a combined bonus less than 9 after racial bonuses factor in and you can repeat the whole process.
I also use rolled proficiency which changes the game considerably.
How do you do rolled proficiency?
It's a mod in the back of the DMG
Take the proficiency bonus multiply by 2 thats the die to use.
It's almost like we're playing a dice game or something.
No no, it's totes cool to have a lvl 20 character be equal or worse at just about anything they do than a lvl 1 character one out of 6 times.
1 probabilities don't actually work like that
2 Thankfully because you're also rolling a d20 it doesn't really present itself super concretely or frequently. It actually bell curves performance pretty well for DCs that shouldn't really move too much, and for those with expertise it results in far better than usual performance.
I find that, if anything it boosts overall performance throughout the game.
I think there need to be a rule that if you dont get a Point Buy Equivalent of X, you get to reroll.
I'm probably putting to much though in this and should just enjoy the game. But still.
Roll to split 25. 4d6 3 times, and subtract each of those from 25 to get your other 3 scores. That's more or less standard point buy there, and even in the most freakishly average case you've still got a +1 to everything.
I think there need to be a rule that if you dont get a Point Buy Equivalent of X, you get to reroll.
I'm probably putting to much though in this and should just enjoy the game. But still.
Roll to split 25. 4d6 3 times, and subtract each of those from 25 to get your other 3 scores. That's more or less standard point buy there, and even in the most freakishly average case you've still got a +1 to everything.
I find people just really dislike the 8.
The standard array is already a superior human, but then players see that 8 and they're like "but I'll be subaverage at something!".
If you're truely the sort of power gaming munchkin that can't bear to have a flaw anywhere (some people consider that roleplaying but EH) then just ask your DM nicely if you can upgrade the 8 to a 10 and that other 10 to an 11.
I know I've said it before because point buy vs rolled stats is one of the thread's default conversation topics, but I always love hearing all the elaborate rolling methods people use to protect themselves from the actual dice.
The greatest evidence that most people don't actually like rolled stats is that most of the people who do like rolled stats only like rolling in a way that games the probabilities involved enough that the 'rolls' can only produce arrays that are better than what you get through point buy.
It always feels like some sort of cargo cult thing - announcing your 40-point-buy-equivalent array with a starting 20 primary is munchkiny powergaming unless you have completed the ritual rolling of the dice first. The shape of the act of rolling the dice gives the stats legitimacy, even if the dice themselves are entirely rigged and basically disconnected from the actual outcome.
A campaign I played in years ago, the other players scoffed at the idea of point buy as being for munchkin casuals who couldn't handle playing flawed characters and weren't real enough DnD players to deal with the randomness of rolled stats
and then told me that their house rule for rolling stats was 5d6, reroll 1s, drop the two lowest, roll 7 stats and drop the lowest again.
I find people just really dislike the 8.
The standard array is already a superior human, but then players see that 8 and they're like "but I'll be subaverage at something!". If you're truely the sort of power gaming munchkin that can't bear to have a flaw anywhere (some people consider that roleplaying but EH) then just ask your DM nicely if you can upgrade the 8 to a 10 and that other 10 to an 11.
I was not expecting this personal of an attack on this Sunday morning :P
My players like rolling dice, i just played with it till they would result in characters that generally at least meet if not exceed the standard array.
Some of my players were surprised we were doing anything beyond straight down the array 3d6.
Sleep on
0
Options
Zonugal(He/Him) The Holiday ArmadilloI'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered Userregular
I find people just really dislike the 8.
The standard array is already a superior human, but then players see that 8 and they're like "but I'll be subaverage at something!".
If you're truely the sort of power gaming munchkin that can't bear to have a flaw anywhere (some people consider that roleplaying but EH) then just ask your DM nicely if you can upgrade the 8 to a 10 and that other 10 to an 11.
I personally love the 8 in the standard array!
I love my character having a definite flaw or deficiency in something.
I find people just really dislike the 8.
The standard array is already a superior human, but then players see that 8 and they're like "but I'll be subaverage at something!".
If you're truely the sort of power gaming munchkin that can't bear to have a flaw anywhere (some people consider that roleplaying but EH) then just ask your DM nicely if you can upgrade the 8 to a 10 and that other 10 to an 11.
I personally love the 8 in the standard array!
I love my character having a definite flaw or deficiency in something.
I agree. Since everyone is probably playing with a different Primary stat, everyone having a bad stat allows the other people to shine in that skill.
It's almost like we're playing a dice game or something.
No no, it's totes cool to have a lvl 20 character be equal or worse at just about anything they do than a lvl 1 character one out of 6 times.
1 probabilities don't actually work like that
2 Thankfully because you're also rolling a d20 it doesn't really present itself super concretely or frequently. It actually bell curves performance pretty well for DCs that shouldn't really move too much, and for those with expertise it results in far better than usual performance.
I find that, if anything it boosts overall performance throughout the game.
Variance of sums does not bell curve. It explodes. Average effect will be slightly better since E(dice) will be +.5 over E(Proficiency)
Re rolling stats:
There is only one correct way.
Roll 4d6 drop one, in order, after doing all other character creation.
+2
Options
webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
It's almost like we're playing a dice game or something.
No no, it's totes cool to have a lvl 20 character be equal or worse at just about anything they do than a lvl 1 character one out of 6 times.
1 probabilities don't actually work like that
2 Thankfully because you're also rolling a d20 it doesn't really present itself super concretely or frequently. It actually bell curves performance pretty well for DCs that shouldn't really move too much, and for those with expertise it results in far better than usual performance.
I find that, if anything it boosts overall performance throughout the game.
Variance of sums does not bell curve. It explodes. Average effect will be slightly better since E(dice) will be +.5 over E(Proficiency)
Re rolling stats:
There is only one correct way.
Roll 4d6 drop one, in order, after doing all other character creation.
Hahaha I might do this for my westmarches game I run.
Most of my DMing is done in Adventurers League at my FLGS so point-buy is mandated (rightfully), and my current two home games were with complete beginners so for simplicity sake I went with point-buy, but... I really prefer rolling, mostly due to seeing the same race/class combos time after time. Your gnome-fighters or your half-orc wizards just aren't viable in point-buy, but rolling for stats can give you that freedom.
I like the usual 4d6 drop one, but I am a just god and allow an optional reroll if there isn't at least one 15 or above or if the total of all stats is under 60 (e.g. worse than a commoner), I also don't allow a score of 19 or 20 at level 1. If you roll an 18, you can put it somewhere you don't get a racial bonus, or ignore the bonus.
It's almost like we're playing a dice game or something.
No no, it's totes cool to have a lvl 20 character be equal or worse at just about anything they do than a lvl 1 character one out of 6 times.
1 probabilities don't actually work like that
2 Thankfully because you're also rolling a d20 it doesn't really present itself super concretely or frequently. It actually bell curves performance pretty well for DCs that shouldn't really move too much, and for those with expertise it results in far better than usual performance.
I find that, if anything it boosts overall performance throughout the game.
Variance of sums does not bell curve. It explodes. Average effect will be slightly better since E(dice) will be +.5 over E(Proficiency)
Re rolling stats:
There is only one correct way.
Roll 4d6 drop one, in order, after doing all other character creation.
Yeah i was pretty sure bell curve was the wrong description of its distribution i just know that 1 out of 6 times thing was super duper wrong.
Under the regular rules the lvl 1 bonus is +2 and the lvl 20 is +6. Under the new rules the lvl 20 bonus is 1d12. 1d12 is going to be a 1 (worse than a 2) 1/12 times. 1d12 is going to be a 2 (equal to a 2) 1/12 times. 1/12 + 1/12 = 1/6, which is exactly what i said.
Under the new rules, the lvl 1 is using a d4, so 1/4 worse, 1/4 equal, 1/2 better. For the lvl 20 it's 5/12 worse, 1/12 equal, 6/12 better. In all levels, therefore, on average the rolled proficiency gives a "better" result (character hits more often, make skill checks more often, proficient saves more often). But the high level characters also sometimes perform worse than a low level one. A d20 is supposed to account for randomness of any given situation. Rolled proficiency sometimes means the lvl 20 brewer, what, had a brain fart, forgot 19 levels of experience and training, and made shitty beer because of that?
Furthermore though they both benefit (on average) from the rolled proficiency, the lvl one benefits much more.
Lastly, the published monsters don't list generic proficiency iirc, just the final to hit (by attack type) and proficient skills and saves if applicable. Does the DM then attenpt to derive what the static proficiency would have been (from CR??) and convert to rolled instead? Or not bother, making the player characters that much more powerful than everyone else (on average)?
Smrtnik on
+1
Options
webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
power gamer beyond a standard min/maxer. Looks to exploit loopholes and edge cases in the rules to increase their overall power in game.
The tvtropes definition is pretty accurate.
+4
Options
Zonugal(He/Him) The Holiday ArmadilloI'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered Userregular
I think the balance I always struck as a D&D optimizer during the 3.5E days was if I was going to go all out & build a powerful character I had to lock it away behind a really niche focus.
So instead of building a super powerful wizard, I'd build a super powerful ice-mage.
I felt that was an appropriate concession.
+1
Options
webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
I think the balance I always struck as a D&D optimizer during the 3.5E days was if I was going to go all out & build a powerful character I had to lock it away behind a really niche focus.
So instead of building a super powerful wizard, I'd build a super powerful ice-mage.
I felt that was an appropriate concession.
Yea, I always have tried to min/max into one area. I've never tried to be god king of everything. Like Amazing melee, or charisma man in my current game.
In the SKT game I'm DMing I told the players they could all roll and if they really hated their stats take the point buy or the normal array. One of the players ended up with an insane array (17/16/16/15/12/11 iirc, rolled via Roll20 so everyone could see it was legit) but the rest basically took the normal array.
After 8 or so sessions some people felt like they were noticeably weaker (they were) and were dissatisfied with the way they felt like sidekicks and I just declared that everyone should switch to the insane array. Its actually worked out pretty well, the party is clearly heroic and high-powered but it feels pretty natural due to the nature of SKT.
Ever since I ran it purely as a one-off experiment, I've been a huge fan of "18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 18; no stat bumps from race or class"
Especially in something like 4e where you have a lot of super niche feats, shit gets weird in some of the best ways.
Do you mean "level" because otherwise many races will noticeably weaker. Getting rid of level up stats seems more reasonable than getting rid of racial stats
0
Options
KadokenGiving Ends to my Friends and it Feels StupendousRegistered Userregular
Dnd is fun. Keep little mirrors as part of a shaving kit to reflect against medusas.
Ever since I ran it purely as a one-off experiment, I've been a huge fan of "18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8; no stat bumps from race or class"
Especially in something like 4e where you have a lot of super niche feats, shit gets weird in some of the best ways.
Do you mean "level" because otherwise many races will noticeably weaker. Getting rid of level up stats seems more reasonable than getting rid of racial stats
No, I meant race or class. So if you want to play an Elf Fighter with 18 Str/16 Con/ 8 Int, you can.
Or, to use an actual example from the group, a Gnome Thief (4e essentials) with 18 Str. Funny thing about all the Thief stuff in 4e. It says you may use Dex instead of Str, not that you must.
Under the regular rules the lvl 1 bonus is +2 and the lvl 20 is +6. Under the new rules the lvl 20 bonus is 1d12. 1d12 is going to be a 1 (worse than a 2) 1/12 times. 1d12 is going to be a 2 (equal to a 2) 1/12 times. 1/12 + 1/12 = 1/6, which is exactly what i said.
Under the new rules, the lvl 1 is using a d4, so 1/4 worse, 1/4 equal, 1/2 better. For the lvl 20 it's 5/12 worse, 1/12 equal, 6/12 better. In all levels, therefore, on average the rolled proficiency gives a "better" result (character hits more often, make skill checks more often, proficient saves more often). But the high level characters also sometimes perform worse than a low level one. A d20 is supposed to account for randomness of any given situation. Rolled proficiency sometimes means the lvl 20 brewer, what, had a brain fart, forgot 19 levels of experience and training, and made shitty beer because of that?
Furthermore though they both benefit (on average) from the rolled proficiency, the lvl one benefits much more.
Lastly, the published monsters don't list generic proficiency iirc, just the final to hit (by attack type) and proficient skills and saves if applicable. Does the DM then attenpt to derive what the static proficiency would have been (from CR??) and convert to rolled instead? Or not bother, making the player characters that much more powerful than everyone else (on average)?
While deriving proficiency is pretty easy*, i don't do rolled for NPC or monsters just for brevity of play reasons.
Like I said, the issue you're predicting doesn't present itself super concretely in gameplay. I've been using the mod for years at this point and while the issue you're describing, where you can accidentally end up only getting a +1 from your proficiency, is totally a possibility, it doesn't really matter frequently enough because the d20 obfuscates the deficit by being enough to carry the player to victory on its own and more often than not a high roll on the proficiency die will rescue a garbage d20 roll.
*
essentially look at their main attack and get the difference between its attack ability bonus and the attack bonus. Saves and skill bonuses help this too. If its dex save is 5 and its dex is 16 it has a +2 proficiency bonus
I think there need to be a rule that if you dont get a Point Buy Equivalent of X, you get to reroll.
I'm probably putting to much though in this and should just enjoy the game. But still.
Roll to split 25. 4d6 3 times, and subtract each of those from 25 to get your other 3 scores. That's more or less standard point buy there, and even in the most freakishly average case you've still got a +1 to everything.
Huh?
Geth, roll 3#4d6k3 for example
13, 14, 7.
25 - 13 = 12.
25 - 14 = 11.
25 - 7 = 18.
18, 14, 13, 12, 11, 7.
Every good roll means you also have a bad roll, and you have three evens and three odds.
Under the regular rules the lvl 1 bonus is +2 and the lvl 20 is +6. Under the new rules the lvl 20 bonus is 1d12. 1d12 is going to be a 1 (worse than a 2) 1/12 times. 1d12 is going to be a 2 (equal to a 2) 1/12 times. 1/12 + 1/12 = 1/6, which is exactly what i said.
Under the new rules, the lvl 1 is using a d4, so 1/4 worse, 1/4 equal, 1/2 better. For the lvl 20 it's 5/12 worse, 1/12 equal, 6/12 better. In all levels, therefore, on average the rolled proficiency gives a "better" result (character hits more often, make skill checks more often, proficient saves more often). But the high level characters also sometimes perform worse than a low level one. A d20 is supposed to account for randomness of any given situation. Rolled proficiency sometimes means the lvl 20 brewer, what, had a brain fart, forgot 19 levels of experience and training, and made shitty beer because of that?
Furthermore though they both benefit (on average) from the rolled proficiency, the lvl one benefits much more.
Lastly, the published monsters don't list generic proficiency iirc, just the final to hit (by attack type) and proficient skills and saves if applicable. Does the DM then attenpt to derive what the static proficiency would have been (from CR??) and convert to rolled instead? Or not bother, making the player characters that much more powerful than everyone else (on average)?
While deriving proficiency is pretty easy*, i don't do rolled for NPC or monsters just for brevity of play reasons.
Like I said, the issue you're predicting doesn't present itself super concretely in gameplay. I've been using the mod for years at this point and while the issue you're describing, where you can accidentally end up only getting a +1 from your proficiency, is totally a possibility, it doesn't really matter frequently enough because the d20 obfuscates the deficit by being enough to carry the player to victory on its own and more often than not a high roll on the proficiency die will rescue a garbage d20 roll.
*
essentially look at their main attack and get the difference between its attack ability bonus and the attack bonus. Saves and skill bonuses help this too. If its dex save is 5 and its dex is 16 it has a +2 proficiency bonus
Also, and I don't know how consistent the Monster Manual is for this, in the DMG its essentially CR is the same as character levels for determining proficiency bonus.
Under the regular rules the lvl 1 bonus is +2 and the lvl 20 is +6. Under the new rules the lvl 20 bonus is 1d12. 1d12 is going to be a 1 (worse than a 2) 1/12 times. 1d12 is going to be a 2 (equal to a 2) 1/12 times. 1/12 + 1/12 = 1/6, which is exactly what i said.
Under the new rules, the lvl 1 is using a d4, so 1/4 worse, 1/4 equal, 1/2 better. For the lvl 20 it's 5/12 worse, 1/12 equal, 6/12 better. In all levels, therefore, on average the rolled proficiency gives a "better" result (character hits more often, make skill checks more often, proficient saves more often). But the high level characters also sometimes perform worse than a low level one. A d20 is supposed to account for randomness of any given situation. Rolled proficiency sometimes means the lvl 20 brewer, what, had a brain fart, forgot 19 levels of experience and training, and made shitty beer because of that?
Furthermore though they both benefit (on average) from the rolled proficiency, the lvl one benefits much more.
Lastly, the published monsters don't list generic proficiency iirc, just the final to hit (by attack type) and proficient skills and saves if applicable. Does the DM then attenpt to derive what the static proficiency would have been (from CR??) and convert to rolled instead? Or not bother, making the player characters that much more powerful than everyone else (on average)?
While deriving proficiency is pretty easy*, i don't do rolled for NPC or monsters just for brevity of play reasons.
Like I said, the issue you're predicting doesn't present itself super concretely in gameplay. I've been using the mod for years at this point and while the issue you're describing, where you can accidentally end up only getting a +1 from your proficiency, is totally a possibility, it doesn't really matter frequently enough because the d20 obfuscates the deficit by being enough to carry the player to victory on its own and more often than not a high roll on the proficiency die will rescue a garbage d20 roll.
*
essentially look at their main attack and get the difference between its attack ability bonus and the attack bonus. Saves and skill bonuses help this too. If its dex save is 5 and its dex is 16 it has a +2 proficiency bonus
Also, and I don't know how consistent the Monster Manual is for this, in the DMG its essentially CR is the same as character levels for determining proficiency bonus.
Which, other than CR going higher than character levels, matches up to the character level chart.
You can mess with this a little in the building of monsters to push their final cr higher than their proficiency would generally indicate but you almost have to aim for it by giving it a really over the top ability score to its main attack stat.
since people started throwing shade around i also like to point out my game also had to roll their stats in order, and they only got their classes after the first session, and it was determined by their actions in that prologue
so yeah, no, “just use point buy” isn’t relevant to me. i wanted some old school randomness in there, but i wanted to smooth out the probabilities a little bit, because I needed the characters to potentially perform in a wide variety of classes since we had no idea how these characters would come out before the end of session 0.5
Yeah I've read a lot of pretty condescending remarks about people's rolling methods and I'm not sure I get why exactly that those things bother people enough to pick at them.
People do whatever feels right or is fun for their table, you know? It's a group of friends (or co-workers or whatever) getting together to have a good time. Why does it matter to other people how they get their stats?
"But they claim it's rolling to be random but there are so many failsafes, it's not REALLY random!"
Eh, it's still random but it's a pretty "safe" random, admittedly. And I get why people do it. A lot of people like the feeling of winning at something or just feeling powerful. There's something satisfying in rolling for stats still for a lot of people (guilty) but also not wanting to still be weak in a game about heroic fantasy (also probably guilty but I don't get to be a player usually).
I've played anywhere from standard array to 4d6 drop the lowest, to just saying 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8 or 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 10. In general, I've found my group likes the stronger characters but even having the stats higher on the paper, it doesn't really change the game at all. As the DM I can easily just make small adjustments on my end. Often times I'll give monsters more HP or max hp instead of whats recommended but they players don't care and are having a blast.
I just don't know if some of you people realize how condescending you sound when you pick at how other people "roll their characters". It's very borderline the "you're having your fun wrong" situation.
I find people just really dislike the 8.
The standard array is already a superior human, but then players see that 8 and they're like "but I'll be subaverage at something!".
If you're truely the sort of power gaming munchkin that can't bear to have a flaw anywhere (some people consider that roleplaying but EH) then just ask your DM nicely if you can upgrade the 8 to a 10 and that other 10 to an 11.
Flaws are fun, one of the most fun and shortest lived characters I ever had had 7 dexterity
Posts
Roll 2d4 and add 8d13 then subtract your birthday, then travel to those coordinates. You'll meet a woman wearing a red hat reading last month's Vogue. She's your contact. Count the diamonds in her brooch. She'll give you a matchbook.The four digit address is your first two stats, the last four of the phone number minus the number of diamonds in her brooch (you did count, didn't you?) are the next two. Convert the name of the bar on the matchbook into numerals using the onetime pad the Russian gave you, but remember to first convert the letters in ROT13. Those are the last two stats.
Or just use point buy or a standard array for Christ's sake.
Reroll if the moon is in Saturn.
It's a mod in the back of the DMG
Take the proficiency bonus multiply by 2 thats the die to use.
It's almost like we're playing a dice game or something.
No no, it's totes cool to have a lvl 20 character be equal or worse at just about anything they do than a lvl 1 character one out of 6 times.
1 probabilities don't actually work like that
2 Thankfully because you're also rolling a d20 it doesn't really present itself super concretely or frequently. It actually bell curves performance pretty well for DCs that shouldn't really move too much, and for those with expertise it results in far better than usual performance.
I find that, if anything it boosts overall performance throughout the game.
Roll to split 25. 4d6 3 times, and subtract each of those from 25 to get your other 3 scores. That's more or less standard point buy there, and even in the most freakishly average case you've still got a +1 to everything.
Huh?
The standard array is already a superior human, but then players see that 8 and they're like "but I'll be subaverage at something!".
If you're truely the sort of power gaming munchkin that can't bear to have a flaw anywhere (some people consider that roleplaying but EH) then just ask your DM nicely if you can upgrade the 8 to a 10 and that other 10 to an 11.
The greatest evidence that most people don't actually like rolled stats is that most of the people who do like rolled stats only like rolling in a way that games the probabilities involved enough that the 'rolls' can only produce arrays that are better than what you get through point buy.
It always feels like some sort of cargo cult thing - announcing your 40-point-buy-equivalent array with a starting 20 primary is munchkiny powergaming unless you have completed the ritual rolling of the dice first. The shape of the act of rolling the dice gives the stats legitimacy, even if the dice themselves are entirely rigged and basically disconnected from the actual outcome.
A campaign I played in years ago, the other players scoffed at the idea of point buy as being for munchkin casuals who couldn't handle playing flawed characters and weren't real enough DnD players to deal with the randomness of rolled stats
and then told me that their house rule for rolling stats was 5d6, reroll 1s, drop the two lowest, roll 7 stats and drop the lowest again.
PSN: Wstfgl | GamerTag: An Evil Plan | Battle.net: FallenIdle#1970
Hit me up on BoardGameArena! User: Loaded D1
I was not expecting this personal of an attack on this Sunday morning :P
Some of my players were surprised we were doing anything beyond straight down the array 3d6.
I personally love the 8 in the standard array!
I love my character having a definite flaw or deficiency in something.
As a proponent of dice rolling for stats... that method is a giant pile of munchkin-y bullshit.
I agree. Since everyone is probably playing with a different Primary stat, everyone having a bad stat allows the other people to shine in that skill.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
Variance of sums does not bell curve. It explodes. Average effect will be slightly better since E(dice) will be +.5 over E(Proficiency)
Re rolling stats:
There is only one correct way.
Roll 4d6 drop one, in order, after doing all other character creation.
Hahaha I might do this for my westmarches game I run.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
I like the usual 4d6 drop one, but I am a just god and allow an optional reroll if there isn't at least one 15 or above or if the total of all stats is under 60 (e.g. worse than a commoner), I also don't allow a score of 19 or 20 at level 1. If you roll an 18, you can put it somewhere you don't get a racial bonus, or ignore the bonus.
Especially in something like 4e where you have a lot of super niche feats, shit gets weird in some of the best ways.
Yeah i was pretty sure bell curve was the wrong description of its distribution i just know that 1 out of 6 times thing was super duper wrong.
Under the new rules, the lvl 1 is using a d4, so 1/4 worse, 1/4 equal, 1/2 better. For the lvl 20 it's 5/12 worse, 1/12 equal, 6/12 better. In all levels, therefore, on average the rolled proficiency gives a "better" result (character hits more often, make skill checks more often, proficient saves more often). But the high level characters also sometimes perform worse than a low level one. A d20 is supposed to account for randomness of any given situation. Rolled proficiency sometimes means the lvl 20 brewer, what, had a brain fart, forgot 19 levels of experience and training, and made shitty beer because of that?
Furthermore though they both benefit (on average) from the rolled proficiency, the lvl one benefits much more.
Lastly, the published monsters don't list generic proficiency iirc, just the final to hit (by attack type) and proficient skills and saves if applicable. Does the DM then attenpt to derive what the static proficiency would have been (from CR??) and convert to rolled instead? Or not bother, making the player characters that much more powerful than everyone else (on average)?
power gamer beyond a standard min/maxer. Looks to exploit loopholes and edge cases in the rules to increase their overall power in game.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
The tvtropes definition is pretty accurate.
So instead of building a super powerful wizard, I'd build a super powerful ice-mage.
I felt that was an appropriate concession.
Yea, I always have tried to min/max into one area. I've never tried to be god king of everything. Like Amazing melee, or charisma man in my current game.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
After 8 or so sessions some people felt like they were noticeably weaker (they were) and were dissatisfied with the way they felt like sidekicks and I just declared that everyone should switch to the insane array. Its actually worked out pretty well, the party is clearly heroic and high-powered but it feels pretty natural due to the nature of SKT.
Do you mean "level" because otherwise many races will noticeably weaker. Getting rid of level up stats seems more reasonable than getting rid of racial stats
No, I meant race or class. So if you want to play an Elf Fighter with 18 Str/16 Con/ 8 Int, you can.
Or, to use an actual example from the group, a Gnome Thief (4e essentials) with 18 Str. Funny thing about all the Thief stuff in 4e. It says you may use Dex instead of Str, not that you must.
Hmmmmm...
While deriving proficiency is pretty easy*, i don't do rolled for NPC or monsters just for brevity of play reasons.
Like I said, the issue you're predicting doesn't present itself super concretely in gameplay. I've been using the mod for years at this point and while the issue you're describing, where you can accidentally end up only getting a +1 from your proficiency, is totally a possibility, it doesn't really matter frequently enough because the d20 obfuscates the deficit by being enough to carry the player to victory on its own and more often than not a high roll on the proficiency die will rescue a garbage d20 roll.
*
Geth, roll 3#4d6k3 for example
13, 14, 7.
25 - 13 = 12.
25 - 14 = 11.
25 - 7 = 18.
18, 14, 13, 12, 11, 7.
Every good roll means you also have a bad roll, and you have three evens and three odds.
Also, and I don't know how consistent the Monster Manual is for this, in the DMG its essentially CR is the same as character levels for determining proficiency bonus.
So:
CR 0-4: +2
CR 5-8: +3
CR 9-12: +4
CR 13-16: +5
CR 17-20: +6
CR 21-24: +7
CR 25-28: +8
CR 29-30: +9
Which, other than CR going higher than character levels, matches up to the character level chart.
You can mess with this a little in the building of monsters to push their final cr higher than their proficiency would generally indicate but you almost have to aim for it by giving it a really over the top ability score to its main attack stat.
so yeah, no, “just use point buy” isn’t relevant to me. i wanted some old school randomness in there, but i wanted to smooth out the probabilities a little bit, because I needed the characters to potentially perform in a wide variety of classes since we had no idea how these characters would come out before the end of session 0.5
People do whatever feels right or is fun for their table, you know? It's a group of friends (or co-workers or whatever) getting together to have a good time. Why does it matter to other people how they get their stats?
"But they claim it's rolling to be random but there are so many failsafes, it's not REALLY random!"
Eh, it's still random but it's a pretty "safe" random, admittedly. And I get why people do it. A lot of people like the feeling of winning at something or just feeling powerful. There's something satisfying in rolling for stats still for a lot of people (guilty) but also not wanting to still be weak in a game about heroic fantasy (also probably guilty but I don't get to be a player usually).
I've played anywhere from standard array to 4d6 drop the lowest, to just saying 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8 or 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 10. In general, I've found my group likes the stronger characters but even having the stats higher on the paper, it doesn't really change the game at all. As the DM I can easily just make small adjustments on my end. Often times I'll give monsters more HP or max hp instead of whats recommended but they players don't care and are having a blast.
I just don't know if some of you people realize how condescending you sound when you pick at how other people "roll their characters". It's very borderline the "you're having your fun wrong" situation.
Flaws are fun, one of the most fun and shortest lived characters I ever had had 7 dexterity