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[Formula One & motorsport] Round 8, France: Cry me a Riviera

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Posts

  • JazzJazz UKRegistered User regular
    Boos for
    Lewis
    ? That's weird.

  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    Kimi! Really glad to see him get one before the end of the season. Now to lay into everyone else...

    Hamilton did a pretty good job all round. Some great racing at the end and he very nearly had Verstappen but for marbles. It is a bit disappointing to see how a massive speed differential (when he caught Kimi after his first stop) doesn't really matter though. Turbulent air and you may as well give up until your opponent makes a mistake. Mercedes had both brilliant and terrible strategy today. The effectively free pit stop was brilliant, failing to realise that the tyre wear was simply too high was abysmal. It was obvious when he was losing second a lap that the call ought to have been get him in and cover off Verstappen for second at the very least.

    I'm going to be pretty harsh here, but Bottas was pretty terrible and may have cost Hamilton the chance at securing the title. While Ferrari were the quicker car (and probably had the pace for an easy 1-2 but for Vettel's mistakes), he should have had the pace to cover off Verstappen for the pit stop. Keep Verstappen behind him as a buffer to Vettel, Hamilton secures second and Vettel has more cars to try and get past on track. Couldn't keep Vettel behind him at the end either.

  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    You keep asking a race car driver to move over and let a guy pass, and sooner or later he's going to stop helping you elsewhere. It's the give and take that comes from having a must win attitude that these guys have.

  • JazzJazz UKRegistered User regular
    edited October 2018
    Veevee wrote: »
    You keep asking a race car driver to move over and let a guy pass, and sooner or later he's going to stop helping you elsewhere. It's the give and take that comes from having a must win attitude that these guys have.

    I couldn't help but smile when
    Ferrari
    told
    Vettel
    to let
    Raikkonen
    past. Never thought I'd see that. And it was the right thing to do, even if just because of the different strategies for the teammates. Between that and *gasp* a multi-stop race strategy again (even if only for one car), and the race had some nice elements that used to be commonplace but are now a real rarity in F1.

    altid wrote: »
    Kimi! Really glad to see him get one before the end of the season. Now to lay into everyone else...

    Hamilton did a pretty good job all round. Some great racing at the end and he very nearly had Verstappen but for marbles. It is a bit disappointing to see how a massive speed differential (when he caught Kimi after his first stop) doesn't really matter though. Turbulent air and you may as well give up until your opponent makes a mistake. Mercedes had both brilliant and terrible strategy today. The effectively free pit stop was brilliant, failing to realise that the tyre wear was simply too high was abysmal. It was obvious when he was losing second a lap that the call ought to have been get him in and cover off Verstappen for second at the very least.

    I'm going to be pretty harsh here, but Bottas was pretty terrible and may have cost Hamilton the chance at securing the title. While Ferrari were the quicker car (and probably had the pace for an easy 1-2 but for Vettel's mistakes), he should have had the pace to cover off Verstappen for the pit stop. Keep Verstappen behind him as a buffer to Vettel, Hamilton secures second and Vettel has more cars to try and get past on track. Couldn't keep Vettel behind him at the end either.

    Unless you're
    Verstappen.
    I mean, that was impressive.
    18th to 2nd and had to get ahead of two Mercs and a Ferrari to do it, even if Vettel did mess it up yet again. So at least the Mercs.
    No mean feat whichever way you slice it.

    Jazz on
    altiddavidsdurions
  • JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    Instant classic. Delete FP1

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  • tsmvengytsmvengy Registered User regular
    edited October 2018
    LOL
    the immediate post-race interview with Kimi. Brundle trying to drag any sort of emotion or excitement out. Nope.

    Also
    I think this was a bit of a Merc strategy fail. If they were just going to slap on another set of Softs, they should have pitted Lewis several laps before they did.

    tsmvengy on
    steam_sig.png
    TeeManJazzdavidsdurions
  • DrovekDrovek Registered User regular
    On the one hand, F1 2018 sale on Steam...
    ... on the other, Assetto Corsa Competizione is proving to be excellent fun.

    steam_sig.png
    Jazz
  • tsmvengytsmvengy Registered User regular
    I forgot about one of my favorite parts:
    Hamilton catches up to Kimi, Kimi gets on the radio to the team and says "let's not do anything stupid." Shades of "LEAVE ME ALONE I KNOW WHAT I'M DOING!"

    steam_sig.png
    JazzTeeMan
  • davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular
    Update on Robert Wickens who had that very rough crash at Pocono earlier this year. http://www.espn.com/racing/indycar/story/_/id/25085265/indycar-driver-robert-wickens-confirms-paralyzed-waist-down

    PwH4Ipj.jpg
  • JazzJazz UKRegistered User regular
    :sad:

    davidsdurionschrishallett83altidTeeManDyvim Tvar
  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    edited October 2018
    Quali
    Danny Ric!!

    Only caught Q2 onwards, but that was a hell of a steal. Nothing against Verstappen, but given how much of the narrative is "Verstappen has better raw pace" it's kinda nice to see Ric come in and nab pole ahead of him - especially given that he's leaving RB and probably won't be able to compete for quite a while.

    altid on
    Dizzy DSnicketysnickTeeManCormacJazzchrishallett83
  • davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular
    I love it when it takes a more perfect qualification lap to beat everyone else.

    PwH4Ipj.jpg
  • WeedLordVegetaWeedLordVegeta Registered User regular
    Lewis is going to melt his tires hunting purples

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  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    I’d love to know how the engineers understand Hamilton’s radio.

  • oldmankenoldmanken Registered User regular
    Poor luck for Ricciardo... Such an impressive drive from him up until the car failure.

  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    Result
    Huge congratulations to Hamilton for the 5th title. Thoroughly deserved - he has been clearly the best driver this season.

    Wrapping it up with two races to spare makes it seem more comfortable than it actually was. It was there for the taking for Ferrari and Vettel but it was their mistakes that ultimately cost them. The car certainly had the pace for most of the season - just look at today's result after all. Think of how many points Vettel threw away through crashes. He might not have beaten Hamilton, but it would have been a hell of a lot closer.

    As for the race, Verstappen had a really good drive to victory. Ricciardo had a rubbish start and his typical luck. Vettel had a weak start but recovered due to Ferrari being easier on the tyres than most. Hamilton had a great start (although was naturally pretty cautious) but the Merc pace fell apart with the tyres. Bottas was largely irrelevant after the first stint. The front 6 are in an entirely different league to everyone else.

  • JazzJazz UKRegistered User regular
    I'm gonna have to watch the race at some point today because schedule shenanigans.
    Well done Lewis! Making history!

  • tsmvengytsmvengy Registered User regular
    edited October 2018
    These races in/around my time zone are actually the least convenient for me. Usually I just watch quali and the race during my son's naptime on the weekend days. But US and MEX didn't even start until almost the end of naptime!
    Quali was pretty exciting, the race had a few laps of excitement but was mostly a parade. Ricciardo has to think he is cursed or has someone specifically messing with him.

    tsmvengy on
    steam_sig.png
  • davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular
    tsmvengy wrote: »
    These races in/around my time zone are actually the least convenient for me. Usually I just watch quali and the race during my son's naptime on the weekend days. But US and MEX didn't even start until almost the end of naptime!
    Quali was pretty exciting, the race had a few laps of excitement but was mostly a parade. Ricciardo has to think he is cursed or has someone specifically messing with him.

    It’s Renault causing trouble. Perhaps not malice but can’t really be ruled out. :rotate:

    PwH4Ipj.jpg
  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    Speaking of Renault (sort of), it's pretty clear McLaren's troubles had little to do with the Honda engine. It wasn't great, but if it was the 'problem', and their chassis was as awesome as said, in the hands of Alonso, they should have been at least the best of the mid pack.

    Hell, Red Bull is running a Renault engine still and are challenging Mercedes and Ferrari, so that is put to bed.

    I'm probably going to be cheering for Ricciardo in Renault next year, but I'm still hoping for McLaren to return to previous form some day.

  • CormacCormac Registered User regular
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Speaking of Renault (sort of), it's pretty clear McLaren's troubles had little to do with the Honda engine. It wasn't great, but if it was the 'problem', and their chassis was as awesome as said, in the hands of Alonso, they should have been at least the best of the mid pack.

    Hell, Red Bull is running a Renault engine still and are challenging Mercedes and Ferrari, so that is put to bed.

    I'm probably going to be cheering for Ricciardo in Renault next year, but I'm still hoping for McLaren to return to previous form some day.

    I think Mclaren or maybe Alonso (likely Alonso) admitted this year that last years claim about the chassis being great was bullshit. He/they were saying to save face and make the team and investors not feel so bad about how terrible they were doing.

    I do hope that in the coming years Mclaren and Williams return to the mid-pack and/or not being total crap. They both teams that have a long history of success and engineering excellence that it almost seems unfair to see them doing so poorly.

    Steam: Gridlynk | PSN: Gridlynk | Destiny: Gridlynk | Battlefield 1: Gridlynk
    Nova_Cchrishallett83Jazz
  • chrishallett83chrishallett83 Hi! Registered User regular
    If Ricciardo was in a reliable car with real race-winning pace, he'd be multiple-times world champion already.

    Change my mind.

    davidsdurionsJazz
  • chrishallett83chrishallett83 Hi! Registered User regular
    Cormac wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Speaking of Renault (sort of), it's pretty clear McLaren's troubles had little to do with the Honda engine. It wasn't great, but if it was the 'problem', and their chassis was as awesome as said, in the hands of Alonso, they should have been at least the best of the mid pack.

    Hell, Red Bull is running a Renault engine still and are challenging Mercedes and Ferrari, so that is put to bed.

    I'm probably going to be cheering for Ricciardo in Renault next year, but I'm still hoping for McLaren to return to previous form some day.

    I think Mclaren or maybe Alonso (likely Alonso) admitted this year that last years claim about the chassis being great was bullshit. He/they were saying to save face and make the team and investors not feel so bad about how terrible they were doing.

    I do hope that in the coming years Mclaren and Williams return to the mid-pack and/or not being total crap. They both teams that have a long history of success and engineering excellence that it almost seems unfair to see them doing so poorly.

    I would LOVE to see Williams and McLaren fucking up Ferrari and Mercedes' day on a regular basis. *sigh* if only...

    Nova_CTeeManJazz
  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    If Ricciardo was in a reliable car with real race-winning pace, he'd be multiple-times world champion already.

    Change my mind.

    I'll take a stab at it!

    Danny Ric is undeniably a good driver, but we've yet to see him really under the pressure of a title challenge. Things change when you're actually in the fight. Look at how utterly ruthless Hamilton and Rosberg were towards each other when it came to a title fight. Look at how Vettel has cracked badly when in a direct title fight. It's one of the reasons Hamilton is in a league of his own right now - he has the pace and the mental fortitude to see a title challenge through.
    Being fair to Danny Ric, he simply hasn't had the opportunity to mount a challenge so it's impossible to say how he'd react. Likewise Verstappen hasn't been in that position either.

    It's an area that I do have to give some degree of respect to Rosberg for. I did not rate Rosberg particularly highly at the time and I reckon Hamilton had pace over him in a clean race, but I can't deny that he was tenacious in his challenge.

    On McLaren it's very easy to see in hindsight that the management of the team has been in decline since about 2009 onwards. 2012 onwards is just disaster after disaster. I say 2009 since McLaren had a veto over supplying engines to Brawn. While it would have sucked for the public at large, it's also the move that led to Mercedes buying out Brawn and ditching McLaren as a works team.

  • JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    If Ricciardo was in a reliable car with real race-winning pace, he'd be multiple-times world champion already.

    Change my mind.

    i won't because its the truth

    sadly he'll still be out of reach with Renault unless.... well... no. he'll be out of reach LUL

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  • JazzJazz UKRegistered User regular
    edited October 2018
    If any team outside the Big Three has a decent chance of clawing their way up, it's that one. In historical guises they've done it several times.

    Anyway, I'm still looking forward to seeing the Ricciardo vs Hulkenberg match-up. Since Nico is so often "best of the rest", it's a great benchmark for them both. Ricciardo obliterated Vettel in their one season as teammates, and Hulkenberg is one of the very fastest guys not in a Big Three seat. It's one of the strongest driver line-ups on the grid, maybe the strongest pairing overall.

    If the team can keep those guys for a good couple of years and build a good car (not impossible with Renault's investment), they could just do it. Not next year, barring miracles, sure; but soon. Ish.

    Jazz on
  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    I'm not that hot on a Vietnam race for several reasons. It feels like a continuation of Ecclestone's strategy of farming races out to whatever government is willing to pay stupid amounts of money to run the race while neglecting the core fan base. We've had such great successes as Korea and India from this strategy in the past. I can't see any particular reason for going to Vietnam either.

    First and foremost I think street races largely suck. Monaco is the pinnacle of actual street circuits due to how close and iconic the street layout is (with a healthy dose of elevation change as well) - but nobody can say it really makes for good races. Singapore has its night gimmick but again makes for poor races due to limited overtaking spots. If it wasn't for the night thing it would be pretty bland to look at and it's pretty much flat throughout. Baku has produced some good races (largely because everyone seems to forget how to drive here) but outside of the old town walls(?) section there isn't much to look at. The massively wide main straight has to be one of the blandest pieces of tarmac in F1. If Russia counts as a street circuit then it's probably the worst combination of bland and dull races. Previous attempts at street circuits have been pretty damned poor as well - e.g. Valencia.

    Generally they tend to be flat, placed in dull surroundings (particularly now when runoff is required as part of the track design) and produce poor races.

    The actual layout is shown in detail here:
    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-new-vietnam-street-circuit.2BvFoOV82kcqi88y0mMsUU.html
    Seems like a few corners cribbed from other circuits, a few massively long straights, no elevation change and not much to look at in the surrounding area.

    There's also the issue of where to fit this in the calendar - especially with other proposed new tracks like a Miami street circuit (which I imagine will suffer much the same issues as Vietnam with regards to elevation and overly long straights - there really isn't a lot you can do in most cities). The calendar either has to expand again - something which Hamilton has already spoke out against, or other circuits have to be cut. There's already the usual talk of it being the last british GP at Silverstone next year. It isn't viable to expect governments to prop up races and they aren't doing the existing fans any favours by dropping classic circuits in favour of new races in places without an established fanbase.

  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    edited November 2018
    Monaco is the pinnacle of street courses? You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. It is the worst street course in the world that is only run due to tradition. I love a good street course like Long Beach, and the vietnam track doesnt look all that bad. It looks like the huge straight is preceded by a slower, less aero dependent turn that should help a lot with passing.

    If being flat is a disqualifier, then you'd be happy if they never race on Hockenheim (or Silverstone, etc) again, right?

    The real question, as you did point out, is what race are they dropping to add Vietnam. My vote would be Sochi, but the Russians are so corrupt I doubt F1 will ever stop hosting a race in Russia.

    Veevee on
  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    Pinnacle as in "it looks nicest". If it's going to be a shit race regardless it may as well look nice rather than driving around a car park on an industrial estate. Monaco is (in the UK at least) by far the most widely known street circuit.

    Being flat doesn't automatically disqualify a track from being interesting, but Hockenheim, Silverstone etc are actual racing circuits. They weren't constrained by "there's no road here" or "there's a building in the way". The restraints on design for street circuits means they're often typified by long straights and awkward 90 degree turns because there's literally no other way for them to go. Give me a proper racing circuit over a street circuit any day.

  • oldmankenoldmanken Registered User regular
    I only really saw it the first year it was run, but I thought the street course in Baku was pretty decent.

    I would also second Long Beach as a fun street course, Toronto too.

  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    Quali
    Threatened to be interesting with the rain, never materialized. Ferrari did well with the soft tyre call. Saubers (especially Leclerc) were on top form. What will be talked about most is the incidents.

    Hamilton should cop a penalty for the way he was moving about on track. Nothing malicious, just driving like he'd checked out already. Probably just a grid drop.

    Vettel should be disqualified from quali. Yes the weighbridge at a crucial moment sucks but too bad, it's random. Failed to follow stewards instructions which led to both an inaccurate reading and destroyed the equipment. With no reading I'd consider it a missed weighbridge and thus forced to start from the pit lane. If nothing else I'd consider failing to follow explicit instructions grounds for a heavy penalty and probably disqualification.

  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    The more I see of the Vettel weighbridge incident, the worse it gets - and it was horribly misrepresented by Sky/Paul Di Resta.

    First up he called it "naughty of the FIA" to call Vettel in - when the procedure is completely random. Getting called in is just bad luck.

    He then demonstrates that he doesn't have a clue about the procedure by claiming the stewards weren't ready. After reading about it, the procedure is that the car being called in must stop and switch off the engine before the weighbridge, then the stewards will push the car onto the weighbridge. The cone in front of it (the one Vettel runs over) is there to stop the driver before they get onto the weighbridge. This procedure isn't new and it's something the drivers all know about. You can see the stewards waiting by the side ready to push the car when it's safe. When Vettel knocks over the cone and refuses to cut the engine they no longer know what to do. Is it safe to approach a car with the engine still running? You can see that he's being signalled to cut the engine - and instead he drives AT the guy in front of him removing the cone.

    I don't see how he gets away with anything other than disqualification for that. Just another mistake by Vettel to pile onto the list.

  • davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular
    And they let Vettel slide with a 25k euro fine and no grid penalty or dq of session.

    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.vettel-handed-hefty-fine-for-weighbridge-incident-during-qualifying.1EdIoUHMHi6mkUq8E2og6u.html

    Pretty weak from FIA, if you ask me.

    PwH4Ipj.jpg
    altid
  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    I was hoping they'd just put Hamilton and Vettel on the back row and be done with it. Championship is won, so little consequence in a harsh penalty.

  • bwaniebwanie Posting into the void Registered User regular
    Occo...why...

    Just what are you even doing attacking a race leader while being lapped.

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  • JazzJazz UKRegistered User regular
    /headdesk

    altid
  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    Both great and terrible race.
    Short versions:
    Merc: Tyre wear bad again, had to use a weaker strategy off the back of it
    Ferrari: Had the better tyre strategy, ended up nowhere
    Red Bull: "Hey guys, we're here for the race". Great tyre wear and strong pace throughout.

    That was Verstappen's victory without a doubt. I have no idea what Ocon was trying to do. If it weren't for the floor damage I reckon Verstappen still would have won. He certainly had both the pace and the tyres. Danny Ric had very strong pace as well but got bogged down in traffic a bit.

    Hamilton had strong pace as ever. With tyres to burn his pace was on par with the red bulls. Handed the victory, but you take what you're given in F1 really. Bottas - well, it was another poor race wasn't it? Had a great start but then spent the vast majority of the race either as a road block or being passed. Can't really say it was to protect Hamilton either.

    Ferrari I just have no idea what happened to them. An uncharacteristically poor start meant they got stuck behind Bottas for most of the race. Oddly Kimi looked to be the faster of the two by a good margin. Did well to pass both Vettel and Bottas and hold off a faster Danny Ric. Vettel just ended up nowhere. It almost felt like he just plain gave up about half way through. A pretty terrible result to start 2nd and end up 6th - or effectively last in the top flight of F1.

    On the incident itself and the aftermath... Ocon was clearly in the wrong, and taking out the race leader as a backmarker is the absolute worst thing you can do (although ironically that's what Jos Verstappen did to Montoya many years ago). I did find Hamilton's take on it interesting though. He pointed out that Ocon was allowed to unlap himself and that Verstappen had a lot more to lose in that situation. It In no way absolves Ocon - but it is also true. Verstappen could easily have afforded the loss of a tenth or two at that point. The flip side of course is that you just don't expect a backmarker to suddenly come up alongside you.

    There was some aftermath with Verstappen seeking out Ocon and being confrontational. Pushed Ocon around a bit and it was caught on camera. The stewards investigated it as a breach of sporting code and have slapped Verstappen with two days community service. Personally I'd have given him much more - not for the incident, but for saying he was "triggered".

    GnomeTank
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    If Bottas continues this "form" in to 2019, he's going to guarantee that seat goes to Ocon/Russel in 2020. He's been completely out of it since Russia. I get it, that was crushing, but part of being a top tier driver is bouncing back from crushing situations.

    As far as the Ocon/Verstrappen thing...
    Ocon was clearly in the wrong, not up for debate...but the difference in mindset between Lewis and Max was on full display. Hamilton even said it very bluntly in the post race car-side interview. Max is a go getter, and sometimes it's not to his benefit. Should Ocon have made that lunge? No, but as a race winning top tier driver you need to know when you have more to lose and drive accordingly. If Max lets him go there and then catches right back up, he'll get blue flags. Yeah, he'll lose a bit of time, but he likely wins the race.

    It's the difference in mindset between a five time champion and someone that it's easy to forget is only 21.

    Sagroth wrote: »
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  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    Found this on the youtubes, thought you guys might enjoy it. From the F1 2018 game

    CormacTeeManJazzdavidsdurionsjimb213
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