The trend of blundering into the void of adopting new tech, damn the consequences, full speed ahead, continues this week. The Telegraph tells us about "a number of UK legal and financial firms" are in talks with a chip company to implant their employees with RFID microchips for security purposes.
Ah, security purposes, our favorite road to hell paved with some kind of intentions. Is it like when Facebook took people's phone numbers for security purposes and handed them to advertisers? Sorry, I'm just a little cynical right now. The report explained the purpose of corporate bosses chipping their workers like a beloved Pekinese is to set restrictions on areas they can access within the companies.
"One prospective client," The Telegraph wrote, "which cannot be named, is a major financial services firm with "hundreds of thousands of employees."
This sounds a lot like a chip company sales team is hustling some free publicity. Just cause a big firm sits down with you doesn't mean they're going to overhaul their entire security and badging system with your untested, socially problematic technology. And it's certainly not going to be a big firm with hundreds of thousands of employees.
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NEO|PhyteThey follow the stars, bound together.Strands in a braid till the end.Registered Userregular
In a cyberpunk future where chipping becomes a regular thing, I'd hope they at least have the sense to come up with something easily swappable, like a little pouch under the wrist that you can pop open and swap the chips on. Surgery once, rather than surgery every time a new chip is needed.
It was that somehow, from within the derelict-horror, they had learned a way to see inside an ugly, broken thing... And take away its pain.
Warframe/Steam: NFyt
In a cyberpunk future where chipping becomes a regular thing, I'd hope they at least have the sense to come up with something easily swappable, like a little pouch under the wrist that you can pop open and swap the chips on. Surgery once, rather than surgery every time a new chip is needed.
So how does this differ from a badge, again? Or maybe a wristband. We can totally put the RFID in a little wristband you wave over the sensor.
In a cyberpunk future where chipping becomes a regular thing, I'd hope they at least have the sense to come up with something easily swappable, like a little pouch under the wrist that you can pop open and swap the chips on. Surgery once, rather than surgery every time a new chip is needed.
I think the point is that, in order to steal it, somewhat invasive surgery would be necessary.
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"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
In a cyberpunk future where chipping becomes a regular thing, I'd hope they at least have the sense to come up with something easily swappable, like a little pouch under the wrist that you can pop open and swap the chips on. Surgery once, rather than surgery every time a new chip is needed.
I think the point is that, in order to steal it, somewhat invasive surgery would be necessary.
No, I just have to wave my phone near your wrist. It's SUPER easy to spoof RFID chips. Faking an employee badge would actually be harder.
In a cyberpunk future where chipping becomes a regular thing, I'd hope they at least have the sense to come up with something easily swappable, like a little pouch under the wrist that you can pop open and swap the chips on. Surgery once, rather than surgery every time a new chip is needed.
I think the point is that, in order to steal it, somewhat invasive surgery would be necessary.
No, I just have to wave my phone near your wrist. It's SUPER easy to spoof RFID chips. Faking an employee badge would actually be harder.
I'd assume they would upgrade the tech to cryptographic based authentication. You'd have to get the chip itself in order to get the internal private key.
But yeah, if they actually use plain RFID chips, they're idiots.
Jephery on
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"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
In a cyberpunk future where chipping becomes a regular thing, I'd hope they at least have the sense to come up with something easily swappable, like a little pouch under the wrist that you can pop open and swap the chips on. Surgery once, rather than surgery every time a new chip is needed.
I think the point is that, in order to steal it, somewhat invasive surgery would be necessary.
If that is the case then it cannot be easily swappable.
In a cyberpunk future where chipping becomes a regular thing, I'd hope they at least have the sense to come up with something easily swappable, like a little pouch under the wrist that you can pop open and swap the chips on. Surgery once, rather than surgery every time a new chip is needed.
I think the point is that, in order to steal it, somewhat invasive surgery would be necessary.
No, I just have to wave my phone near your wrist. It's SUPER easy to spoof RFID chips. Faking an employee badge would actually be harder.
I'd assume they would upgrade the tech to cryptographic based authentication. You'd have to get the chip itself in order to get the internal private key.
But yeah, if they actually use plain RFID chips, they're idiots.
Eh, the entire way RFID works I'm not sure you could get anything in there for even rudimentary crypto stuff. If you get the size up to what's in your credit card you can, but that also has direct contacts for power and data transmission. You would need to be able to beam enough power to the chip for it to run the calculation. Which isn't impossible, but at that point I'm worried about heat.
It also fails to add an additional security factor, it only makes it harder to exploit the existing one. A PIN with badge is vastly more secure anyways.
Let's assume for the sake of argument they make the implanted chip un-spoofable.
Brazil has a huge problem with carjackings. Some years ago, cars that required the user's fingerprint to start were popular. Then the carjackers started cutting off fingers.
Sic transit gloria mundi.
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MayabirdPecking at the keyboardRegistered Userregular
In a cyberpunk future where chipping becomes a regular thing, I'd hope they at least have the sense to come up with something easily swappable, like a little pouch under the wrist that you can pop open and swap the chips on. Surgery once, rather than surgery every time a new chip is needed.
Nope, and they'll charge you for the surgery too, both ways. If you don't get the surgery when you leave they send the cops out for you for having stolen company property.
Except it would somehow be worse because real corporate dystopia is always somehow worse than the worst satires and thought experiments can ever be.
I've been working with passcard systems and readers for the last decade and a half. While the technology is far from foolproof or unbreakable, at least from everything I've seen and read has indicated that copying people's cards has not proven to be a widespread phenomenon, especially with more recent technologies. Higher security variations of HID iClass cards are pretty resilient, but they're also fairly cheap. You can buy them in bulk for like $5-10 or so, depending on other features (gloss/matte coating, pre-punched holes, pre-printed elements, heightened onboard memory, etc).
Would I want the chip installed into people? Uh, I don't think my corporation will be investigating that. While it'd be nice to not have people losing them immediately (the shortest time from print to replacement was about 6 minutes, as in they lost it on their walk back to the office), the idea of needing to perform (even minor) surgical procedures on people sets off all sorts of red flags. It seems like a solution in search of a problem. You can code and print off hundreds in an afternoon as a solo administrator, let alone when multiple people are involved. And you don't have to pierce anyone's skin to do it. (papercuts aside)
The credentials I'm accustomed to working with are not programmable; the card's chip is set to a specific set of numbers that are assigned to our specific corporation. Systems are present that prevent one from simply creating a card with the same number and having it work on several levels, but I don't think the thread really wants white papers linked. Yes, I'm aware of the vulnerabilities present in older generations (and I'd be shocked if someone wasn't making solid progress on cracking the current generation, if it hasn't been done already, it's an ongoing arms race in that regard), but many of these are Access Control level systems, not Security Systems. Like, having a deadbolt on your door doesn't make your house impervious to a break in, it's not meant to be the Alpha and the Omega of intrusion prevention, it's a reasonably priced and reasonably effective measure of setting a 'you must be this dedicated to get in here' bar that will cause many (but not all) people to look for an easier target.
Security on a property is a multi-faceted thing, from having on site guards to passcards to CCTV to even the layout of physical elements of the building. Defeating one, many, or even all of them is not impossible, but intended to be challenging enough and with enough overlapping elements to make it a high risk proposition to expect to get past all of them.
Now, this is for your average commercial building. Obviously high security facilities like the Pentagon are going to have much tighter and stricter security, where a simple passcard and even a code or two aren't going to suffice. I haven't worked with biometrics in a good decade, but the generation of fingerprint scanners I used were kind of a pain in the ass. Whether it's retinal patterns, fingerprints, facial recognition, even the gait to your walk, are ways that people can be identified in ways that are difficult to replicate or manufacture.
One of the hotter trends I'm seeing are companies trying to push towards mobile phone credentials, wherein your access permissions aren't in a card or your skin, but assigned to an app on your phone. The platform I'm using has been installed in hotels, offices, and a variety of other facilities. They *claim* to be resilient to copying and replaying signals, man in the middle attacks, etc, but that's marketing pamphlet stuff. I've dug into it a little, but we're not yet at a point where it's looking like an option for our properties.
But I'm getting a bit astray.
As someone who works with passcards, there are certainly some interesting developments in the field. Putting chips into people seems a bit out there, even if it does take us yet another step closer to some crazy cyberpunk shit. It is possible, but if I'm going to require my administrators to even us a simple punchgun tool to pop them in there, we're going to need to seriously re-evaluate how much we're paying them and what insurance premiums we're willing to pay for.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Why aren't there already bills going through various state legislatures to make implanted chips for employees illegal?
Because it hasn’t happened and wasting time on a thing that may never happen probably isn’t that valuable.
At least one company has already done it in the US.
Who? Do most people even know?
There is no legislation on this issue because it's an issue basically no one knows about because it's barely an issue at all. Bills don't get written for every possible issue.
On Aug. 1, employees at Three Square Market, a technology company in Wisconsin, can choose to have a chip the size of a grain of rice injected between their thumb and index finger. Once that is done, any task involving RFID technology — swiping into the office building, paying for food in the cafeteria — can be accomplished with a wave of the hand.
The program is not mandatory, but as of Monday, more than 50 out of 80 employees at Three Square’s headquarters in River Falls, Wis., had volunteered.
When it's not an option for employment, then we'll have a problem.
There's a tiny nugget of possibility to the whole thing. Having chips inserted into everyone that has all your super vital ID stuff like name/address, any medical issues, maybe bank details so you could just pay for stuff without ever having to do anything. Just pie in the sky wishful futurist thinking. The actual nitty gritty reality of pulling it off though is probably unfeasible. Every byte of data in it would have to be easily changeable at a whim, and almost preferably remotely, because ain't nobody routinely getting surgery to insert/remove them (barring some super non-invasive medical discovery). And if it is easily changeable remotely... hello hackers! And the entire thing would have to be done by the government, and free to boot, because otherwise this is a perfect avenue to fuck over the poor, like many thing tend to be already.
For right here, right now? Rather than a badge or wristband, you'd be better served imbedding chips into company uniforms.
The idea of having virtually the entire contents of my wallet inside me where I can never lose or forget it is a nice dream. It's also just that: a dream.
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
On Aug. 1, employees at Three Square Market, a technology company in Wisconsin, can choose to have a chip the size of a grain of rice injected between their thumb and index finger. Once that is done, any task involving RFID technology — swiping into the office building, paying for food in the cafeteria — can be accomplished with a wave of the hand.
The program is not mandatory, but as of Monday, more than 50 out of 80 employees at Three Square’s headquarters in River Falls, Wis., had volunteered.
When it's not an option for employment, then we'll have a problem.
Not being mandatory for employment doesn't mean the company isn't going to expect people to get it and look down on any employee who refuses to get it.
IMO I'd rather get the law on the books now before the problem shows up. I'm pretty sure some scummy employers will move soon enough to make it a requirement; especially, if enough employees don't have a problem. It's a rather dumb idea because I'm pretty sure this doesn't come out to be cheaper, like not even close, to the current stuff. Surgery costs money and it's rather done to do that over something that might not last more than a year. On a security end, I'm pretty sure these are going to be less secure than some CAC Cards. I mean you can go the route we're going with more more secure credit card chips because that's likely going to cause issues. So it's probably rather easy for most crooks to get a hold of the traditional stuff if they want to break into a building. I'd also wager that some criminal elements wouldn't be above removing the chip from employees if they did use something that was much more secure than traditional CAC Cards.
Also ten to one those scummy types will insist that the costs are on the employee, once they are forced to realize that this isn't going to be cheap; especially, when someone has a bad reaction to either the surgery, the implanted chip or both.
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Walmart is for poor people so wealthy liberals remembered abusive megacorps are bad but Amazon caters to them so its a contanst fucking struggle.
This sounds a lot like a chip company sales team is hustling some free publicity. Just cause a big firm sits down with you doesn't mean they're going to overhaul their entire security and badging system with your untested, socially problematic technology. And it's certainly not going to be a big firm with hundreds of thousands of employees.
Warframe/Steam: NFyt
I've taken to calling Amazon "Wal-Mart for yuppies"
It usually gets people to understand the dynamic. Also they get real mad.
So how does this differ from a badge, again? Or maybe a wristband. We can totally put the RFID in a little wristband you wave over the sensor.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
I think the point is that, in order to steal it, somewhat invasive surgery would be necessary.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
No, I just have to wave my phone near your wrist. It's SUPER easy to spoof RFID chips. Faking an employee badge would actually be harder.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
I'd assume they would upgrade the tech to cryptographic based authentication. You'd have to get the chip itself in order to get the internal private key.
But yeah, if they actually use plain RFID chips, they're idiots.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
If that is the case then it cannot be easily swappable.
Eh, the entire way RFID works I'm not sure you could get anything in there for even rudimentary crypto stuff. If you get the size up to what's in your credit card you can, but that also has direct contacts for power and data transmission. You would need to be able to beam enough power to the chip for it to run the calculation. Which isn't impossible, but at that point I'm worried about heat.
It also fails to add an additional security factor, it only makes it harder to exploit the existing one. A PIN with badge is vastly more secure anyways.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
Brazil has a huge problem with carjackings. Some years ago, cars that required the user's fingerprint to start were popular. Then the carjackers started cutting off fingers.
Nope, and they'll charge you for the surgery too, both ways. If you don't get the surgery when you leave they send the cops out for you for having stolen company property.
Except it would somehow be worse because real corporate dystopia is always somehow worse than the worst satires and thought experiments can ever be.
Would I want the chip installed into people? Uh, I don't think my corporation will be investigating that. While it'd be nice to not have people losing them immediately (the shortest time from print to replacement was about 6 minutes, as in they lost it on their walk back to the office), the idea of needing to perform (even minor) surgical procedures on people sets off all sorts of red flags. It seems like a solution in search of a problem. You can code and print off hundreds in an afternoon as a solo administrator, let alone when multiple people are involved. And you don't have to pierce anyone's skin to do it. (papercuts aside)
The credentials I'm accustomed to working with are not programmable; the card's chip is set to a specific set of numbers that are assigned to our specific corporation. Systems are present that prevent one from simply creating a card with the same number and having it work on several levels, but I don't think the thread really wants white papers linked. Yes, I'm aware of the vulnerabilities present in older generations (and I'd be shocked if someone wasn't making solid progress on cracking the current generation, if it hasn't been done already, it's an ongoing arms race in that regard), but many of these are Access Control level systems, not Security Systems. Like, having a deadbolt on your door doesn't make your house impervious to a break in, it's not meant to be the Alpha and the Omega of intrusion prevention, it's a reasonably priced and reasonably effective measure of setting a 'you must be this dedicated to get in here' bar that will cause many (but not all) people to look for an easier target.
Security on a property is a multi-faceted thing, from having on site guards to passcards to CCTV to even the layout of physical elements of the building. Defeating one, many, or even all of them is not impossible, but intended to be challenging enough and with enough overlapping elements to make it a high risk proposition to expect to get past all of them.
Now, this is for your average commercial building. Obviously high security facilities like the Pentagon are going to have much tighter and stricter security, where a simple passcard and even a code or two aren't going to suffice. I haven't worked with biometrics in a good decade, but the generation of fingerprint scanners I used were kind of a pain in the ass. Whether it's retinal patterns, fingerprints, facial recognition, even the gait to your walk, are ways that people can be identified in ways that are difficult to replicate or manufacture.
One of the hotter trends I'm seeing are companies trying to push towards mobile phone credentials, wherein your access permissions aren't in a card or your skin, but assigned to an app on your phone. The platform I'm using has been installed in hotels, offices, and a variety of other facilities. They *claim* to be resilient to copying and replaying signals, man in the middle attacks, etc, but that's marketing pamphlet stuff. I've dug into it a little, but we're not yet at a point where it's looking like an option for our properties.
But I'm getting a bit astray.
As someone who works with passcards, there are certainly some interesting developments in the field. Putting chips into people seems a bit out there, even if it does take us yet another step closer to some crazy cyberpunk shit. It is possible, but if I'm going to require my administrators to even us a simple punchgun tool to pop them in there, we're going to need to seriously re-evaluate how much we're paying them and what insurance premiums we're willing to pay for.
Lol
Because even Democrats want those sweet sweet campaign donations
Do businesspeople care enough about the right to tag their employees like pets yet to have it make a difference come donation time?
Plus they can always murmur some stuff about the mark of the beast.
Because it hasn’t happened and wasting time on a thing that may never happen probably isn’t that valuable.
At least one company has already done it in the US.
Who? Do most people even know?
There is no legislation on this issue because it's an issue basically no one knows about because it's barely an issue at all. Bills don't get written for every possible issue.
Source?
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/technology/microchips-wisconsin-company-employees.html
For right here, right now? Rather than a badge or wristband, you'd be better served imbedding chips into company uniforms.
The idea of having virtually the entire contents of my wallet inside me where I can never lose or forget it is a nice dream. It's also just that: a dream.
Not being mandatory for employment doesn't mean the company isn't going to expect people to get it and look down on any employee who refuses to get it.
Also ten to one those scummy types will insist that the costs are on the employee, once they are forced to realize that this isn't going to be cheap; especially, when someone has a bad reaction to either the surgery, the implanted chip or both.
battletag: Millin#1360
Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.