silence1186Character shields down!As a wingmanRegistered Userregular
George H.W. Bush did both good and bad things, but probably after tallying we'd most certainly find he made the world a worse place than it was before him, and it would've been better if he was never around.
That said, his dying doesn't fix any of the bad he's responsible for, so I'm not taking any morbid glee in his passing. I'm mostly sad for his family, as a fellow human being who understands what's it's like to lose a father, grandfather, etc.
I don't think I'll feel the same when Kissinger dies though.
I'll admit my only memories of Bush Sr are the first gulf war and "Read my lips! No new taxes!"
This is a sentiment that I imagine many people share, and it's part of the problem we're having today - so many people don't know what supposedly "venerated" public figures really did. For me, Bush's Christmas pardons are an utter betrayal of the American people, as they were pretty clearly done to protect Bush (who knew that he would soon no longer have any real control over an investigation he openly attacked and covertly undermined - now doesn't that sound familiar?) Beyond that, he employed Lee Atwater, legendary ratfucker, and put out the racebaiting Willie Horton ad. And let's not forget that he was a serial sexual harasser, to the point that he had a fucking one-liner ready when he did it.
As a reminder, Lee Atwater was the person who created the Southern Strategy, and says stuff like this - which the modern side of the party adopted to keep their racism below the radar.
Atwater: As to the whole Southern strategy that Harry S. Dent, Sr. and others put together in 1968, opposition to the Voting Rights Act would have been a central part of keeping the South. Now you don't have to do that. All that you need to do to keep the South is for Reagan to run in place on the issues that he's campaigned on since 1964, and that's fiscal conservatism, balancing the budget, cut taxes, you know, the whole cluster.
Questioner: But the fact is, isn't it, that Reagan does get to the Wallace voter and to the racist side of the Wallace voter by doing away with legal services, by cutting down on food stamps?
Atwater: Y'all don't quote me on this. You start out in 1954 by saying, "N*****, n******, n*****". By 1968 you can't say "n*****"—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me—because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this", is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "N****, n*****".[11][12][13]
Bush was perfectly fine working with someone this racist and exploiting it for political gain. Those two disgust me!
Harry Dresden on
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TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
Dear Bill,
When I walked into this office just now I felt the same sense of wonder and respect that I felt four years ago. I know you will feel that, too.
I wish you great happiness here. I never felt the loneliness some Presidents have described.
There will be very tough times, made even more difficult by criticism you may not think is fair. I’m not a very good one to give advice; but just don’t let the critics discourage you or push you off course.
You will be our President when you read this note. I wish you well. I wish your family well.
Your success now is our country’s success. I am rooting hard for you.
Good luck – George
I'm not gonna say I loved the guy, but when it comes to Republican Presidents he's probably the least worst of the lot in the modern age. He definitely doesn't have a perfect legacy but hell, who does?
What a coincidence, I was just listening to Rachel Maddow's podcast about how he assisted in Spiro and Nixon's efforts to obstruct justice
So long and thanks for all the fish
For anyone who is not listening to Maddow's excellent Bag Man podcast (and you should, it's short and holy shit is it relevant today)
In 1973 at the height of Watergate, Nixons VP Spiro Agnew was under investigation by the DOJ for taking, soliciting, and extorting bribes in exchange for public contracts as county executive of Baltimore, Governor of Maryland, and even continuing as Vice President. Prosecutors has rock-solid evidence.
Agnew went to Nixon and his chief of staff, Haldeman, to stop the investigation. They decided to put pressure on the US Attorney running the investigation, through his brother who was a sitting Senator who Nixon had helped get elected the year before. The guy they enlisted to carry the message from the White House to the USA's brother, was RNC chairman George HW Bush. We know this happened because there are tapes on Nixon's end and documented notes on the USA's end, both mentioning him by name.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKERS
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TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
also one of the funniest disses against Trump was when Bush Sr. and his wife decided to go to the superbowl instead of Trump's inauguration
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HedgethornAssociate Professor of Historical Hobby HorsesIn the Lions' DenRegistered Userregular
It really bugs me that the Americans with Disabilities Act is getting buried 30+ paragraphs down in his obits, usually after multiple claims that GHWB had no domestic agenda to speak of. It was a monumental law that made lots of lives immeasurably better, and Bush was central to getting it done. (And much the same is true for the Clean Air Act Amendments of 1990.) I would go so far as to say it's probably the best such law between 1966 and 2010.
Bush the Greater managed the collapse of the Soviet Union with impossible skill, helped setup the conditions for the 90's economic boom, and as was stated earlier helped pass the most significant civil rights legislation since Johnson (ADA). There are plenty of significant failings in there as well, but he doesn't get nearly enough credit for his Presidency. Much like Carter, and for the same reason.
They need to rename the emergency services building at DCA after him, since they help save anything that goes wrong with Reagan.
It also makes me think about how much society has changed since he was president. I know it doesn't seem like much, but there has been a sea-change in how we view certain issues.
Couscous's comment about him being forced to give a shit about HIV people is pretty much spot on. BUUUUT, at the time HIV was a marginal disease that affected a pretty hated group(the Gays if you felt nice, the Fags or Queers if not). Like 10 000 people worldwide, the vast majority of them Gay. In a world where cancer and heart problems killed because bypass surgery and MRI where experimental tech reserved only for a few test-subjects.
And Gay people where not the marginal group they are today. They where actively hated, discriminated and Marginalized by a large portion of the population. Why? Because there was a wide belief that Gay = perverts and child Molesters . Yes, that was a fairly common belief. One held by a substantial portion of the general population. (Most people's exposure to Gays was either Church propaganda or the occasional gays that approached them in dark alleys and bathroom stalls).
Lets not even get into how much change we have seen with Trans people. I mean up until around 2010-12, you could used Tranny in conversation without people commenting on it. Certainly jokes about "Tranny hookers" was still a thing.
What I am saying is that he was quite Homophobic, but that it was quite a Homophobic time. People should read the book And the Band Played on for how bad it was... then remember its still pretty bad.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
Bush the Greater managed the collapse of the Soviet Union with impossible skill, helped setup the conditions for the 90's economic boom, and as was stated earlier helped pass the most significant civil rights legislation since Johnson (ADA). There are plenty of significant failings in there as well, but he doesn't get nearly enough credit for his Presidency. Much like Carter, and for the same reason.
They need to rename the emergency services building at DCA after him, since they help save anything that goes wrong with Reagan.
Strangely for all his partisan nigh treason with foreign powers (especially Iran), in his pre-Presidential days and his willingness further embed Confederacy and white supremacy as the core of the GOP, you can argue despite the Gulf War he was the most dovish President post WWII except Carter. I also get the impression he was only willing to associate with bigots rather than be one himself but I don't know how mitigating that really is
I think it is hugely important to remember a very powerful person's misdeeds as well as accomplishments, especially when the tendency of a lot of the elite in both the press and politics is hagiographic retrospectives.
It still creeps me out to see a ton of comments in other places that aren't much different "haha, I am glad this person who hasn't been in power for years is dead. It feels me with glee. No I am not saying I am happy he is no longer able to harm people. I just like that he died and hope he suffered as much as possible. The idea of his death being painful feels me with pleasure."
Bush the Greater managed the collapse of the Soviet Union with impossible skill, helped setup the conditions for the 90's economic boom, and as was stated earlier helped pass the most significant civil rights legislation since Johnson (ADA). There are plenty of significant failings in there as well, but he doesn't get nearly enough credit for his Presidency. Much like Carter, and for the same reason.
They need to rename the emergency services building at DCA after him, since they help save anything that goes wrong with Reagan.
Strangely for all his partisan nigh treason with foreign powers (especially Iran), in his pre-Presidential days and his willingness further embed Confederacy and white supremacy as the core of the GOP, you can argue despite the Gulf War he was the most dovish President post WWII except Carter. I also get the impression he was only willing to associate with bigots rather than be one himself but I don't know how mitigating that really is
It makes it a lot worse. It basically puts him in the position of thinking tax policy and whatnot are more important than not associating with bigots.
The sad thing is, for all of his many faults...he may still be the best Republican president since Eisenhower?
To be fair, other than Eisenhower, and even with all the "saving the gop any meaningful change post Nixon putting the on the road that lead to Trump" he was the best Republican President since *checks notes* Ulysses S Grant?!
The sad thing is, for all of his many faults...he may still be the best Republican president since Eisenhower?
To be fair, other than Eisenhower, and even with all the "saving the gop any meaningful change post Nixon putting the on the road that lead to Trump" he was the best Republican President since *checks notes* Ulysses S Grant?!
Maybe Theodore Roosevelt despite his various problems like imperialism? I mean he still probably was less imperialist as president than some of the other presidents around his time.
Some of the gilded age presidents might be higher off because of having done almost nothing depending on how you feel about whether Bush's actions as president were a net good or net ill.
The sad thing is, for all of his many faults...he may still be the best Republican president since Eisenhower?
To be fair, other than Eisenhower, and even with all the "saving the gop any meaningful change post Nixon putting the on the road that lead to Trump" he was the best Republican President since *checks notes* Ulysses S Grant?!
Maybe Theodore Roosevelt despite his various problems like imperialism? I mean he still probably was less imperialist as president than some of the other presidents around his time.
Some of the gilded age presidents might be higher off because of having done almost nothing depending on how you feel about whether Bush's actions as president were a net good or net ill.
I forgot Teddy was a republican. Yes he was the last good republican President. Although he did try to ditch/kill the party by making his own, so much like Eisenhower I'm not sure how much you can claim he was a "party" representation.
I have been on record as saying that Bush I was better than many give credit for. I'll still feel that even after the next few weeks of fawning coverage.
I will also recognise that he did many terrible thing that I have either forgotten or didn't know. It's important to acknowledge both.
A lot of the longer dead presidents did things we would consider horrible and were considered bad at the time but aren't regarded as important enough to really get much mention so I am always reluctant to compare ones I can remember being alive to the long dead.
For example, Roosevelt's criminal libel cases against two newspapers should be considered horrible and even Trump so far hasn't tried it.
The pursuit of an isthmus canal in Central America during this period focused on two possible routes—Nicaragua and Panama, which was then a rebellious district within Colombia. Roosevelt convinced Congress to approve the Panamanian alternative, and a treaty was approved, only to be rejected by the Colombian government. When the Panamanians learned of this, a rebellion followed, was supported by Roosevelt, and succeeded. A treaty with the new Panama government for construction of the canal was then reached in 1903.[162] Roosevelt received criticism for paying the bankrupt Panama Canal Company and the New Panama Canal Company $40,000,000 (equivalent to $10.89 billion in 2017) for the rights and equipment to build the canal.[136] Critics charged that an American investor syndicate allegedly divided the large payment among themselves. There was also controversy over whether a French company engineer influenced Roosevelt in choosing the Panama route for the canal over the Nicaragua route. Roosevelt denied charges of corruption concerning the canal in a January 8, 1906 message to Congress. In January 1909, Roosevelt, in an unprecedented move, brought criminal libel charges against the New York World and the Indianapolis News known as the "Roosevelt-Panama Libel Cases".[163] Both cases were dismissed by U.S. District Courts, and on January 3, 1911, the U.S. Supreme Court, upon federal appeal, upheld the lower courts' rulings.[164] Historians are sharply critical of Roosevelt's criminal prosecutions of the World and the News, but are divided on whether actual corruption in acquiring and building the Panama Canal took place.[165]
The press did briefly target Roosevelt in one instance. After 1904, he was periodically criticized for the manner in which he facilitated the construction of the Panama Canal. According to biographer Brands, Roosevelt, near the end of his term, demanded that the Justice Department bring charges of criminal libel against Joseph Pulitzer's New York World. The publication had accused him of "deliberate misstatements of fact" in defense of family members who were criticized as a result of the Panama affair. Though an indictment was obtained, the case was ultimately dismissed in federal court—it was not a federal offense, but one enforceable in the state courts. The Justice Department had predicted that result, and had also advised Roosevelt accordingly.[170]
Teddy’s imperialism was real, and he died a broken man when his striden out-of-office shaming of Wilson for not getting into WWI ended with his son dying in the trenches. He’s not a shining spot of virtue.
But he was also genuinely committed to improving the nation and its citizens, and his declaration that the Americas were the domain of the U.S. was as much to stop the Europeans from using Latin America as their favorite target for domestic crowd-pleasing military actions as it was imperialistic.
Teddy’s imperialism was real, and he died a broken man when his striden out-of-office shaming of Wilson for not getting into WWI ended with his son dying in the trenches. He’s not a shining spot of virtue.
But he was also genuinely committed to improving the nation and its citizens, and his declaration that the Americas were the domain of the U.S. was as much to stop the Europeans from using Latin America as their favorite target for domestic crowd-pleasing military actions as it was imperialistic.
I always felt Teddy was the best representation of America as a whole in a President, in his mix of both good and bad attributes. A good choice for Presidents to use in Civ games and the like.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited December 2018
Columnist for the Intercept lays out criticism that needs to be remembered. Article linked within the tweet.
"The Ignored Legacy of George H.W. Bush: War Crimes, Racism, and Obstruction of Justice" - my latest for theintercept on the late GOP president's bombing of civilians in Iraq, Willie Horton, and his Iran-contra obstruction of justice, among other things:
The perception in 1992 that Bush was a weak wimp is at least further confirmation that who the media thinks is weak is almost entirely based on looks and nothing else.
The perception in 1992 that Bush was a weak wimp is at least further confirmation that who the media thinks is weak is almost entirely based on looks and nothing else.
It was also based on the perception that he was being pushed around by the right wing of his party. It's important to remember that Bush's main public legacy at that point was as the man who ran as the principled opposition to Reagan in the primary, explaining in depth why ideas like "voodoo economics" were poison, then folded completely when he lost and was offered the Vice Presidency. He was the original "run clips debating himself" pol.
A lot of people never lost their disgust with him over that.
The perception in 1992 that Bush was a weak wimp is at least further confirmation that who the media thinks is weak is almost entirely based on looks and nothing else.
It was also based on the perception that he was being pushed around by the right wing of his party. It's important to remember that Bush's main public legacy at that point was as the man who ran as the principled opposition to Reagan in the primary, explaining in depth why ideas like "voodoo economics" were poison, then folded completely when he lost and was offered the Vice Presidency. He was the original "run clips debating himself" pol.
A lot of people never lost their disgust with him over that.
He didn't stop believing Reaganomics was the hokum that it is. That's why he actually raised taxes to start digging out of the hole Regan made.
The perception in 1992 that Bush was a weak wimp is at least further confirmation that who the media thinks is weak is almost entirely based on looks and nothing else.
It was also based on the perception that he was being pushed around by the right wing of his party. It's important to remember that Bush's main public legacy at that point was as the man who ran as the principled opposition to Reagan in the primary, explaining in depth why ideas like "voodoo economics" were poison, then folded completely when he lost and was offered the Vice Presidency. He was the original "run clips debating himself" pol.
A lot of people never lost their disgust with him over that.
He didn't stop believing Reaganomics was the hokum that it is. That's why he actually raised taxes to start digging out of the hole Regan made.
Which is part of the problem. He spent eight years as VP defending Reagan's policies, ran defending Reagan's policies, then finally reversed himself out of principle in a way that highlighted this disconnect to the point that "Read my lips..." became a catchphrase for "I'm about to lie to you" at the time.
Bush was weak was a phenomenon based on how his party viewed machismo and took his capitulation to Reagan as a sign of a stronger man subjugating a weak one. The media, as the media does, just absorbed the GOP groupthink. There's a lot to unpack in all of that, but it wasn't just his looks that earned that rep.
It also makes me think about how much society has changed since he was president. I know it doesn't seem like much, but there has been a sea-change in how we view certain issues.
Couscous's comment about him being forced to give a shit about HIV people is pretty much spot on. BUUUUT, at the time HIV was a marginal disease that affected a pretty hated group(the Gays if you felt nice, the Fags or Queers if not). Like 10 000 people worldwide, the vast majority of them Gay. In a world where cancer and heart problems killed because bypass surgery and MRI where experimental tech reserved only for a few test-subjects.
And Gay people where not the marginal group they are today. They where actively hated, discriminated and Marginalized by a large portion of the population. Why? Because there was a wide belief that Gay = perverts and child Molesters . Yes, that was a fairly common belief. One held by a substantial portion of the general population. (Most people's exposure to Gays was either Church propaganda or the occasional gays that approached them in dark alleys and bathroom stalls).
Lets not even get into how much change we have seen with Trans people. I mean up until around 2010-12, you could used Tranny in conversation without people commenting on it. Certainly jokes about "Tranny hookers" was still a thing.
What I am saying is that he was quite Homophobic, but that it was quite a Homophobic time. People should read the book And the Band Played on for how bad it was... then remember its still pretty bad.
All right, here's your $5 for winning the contest of "who can string the most slurs together to say the 80s and 90s were homophobic"
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That said, his dying doesn't fix any of the bad he's responsible for, so I'm not taking any morbid glee in his passing. I'm mostly sad for his family, as a fellow human being who understands what's it's like to lose a father, grandfather, etc.
I don't think I'll feel the same when Kissinger dies though.
As a reminder, Lee Atwater was the person who created the Southern Strategy, and says stuff like this - which the modern side of the party adopted to keep their racism below the radar.
Bush was perfectly fine working with someone this racist and exploiting it for political gain. Those two disgust me!
I'm not gonna say I loved the guy, but when it comes to Republican Presidents he's probably the least worst of the lot in the modern age. He definitely doesn't have a perfect legacy but hell, who does?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_legs
For anyone who is not listening to Maddow's excellent Bag Man podcast (and you should, it's short and holy shit is it relevant today)
In 1973 at the height of Watergate, Nixons VP Spiro Agnew was under investigation by the DOJ for taking, soliciting, and extorting bribes in exchange for public contracts as county executive of Baltimore, Governor of Maryland, and even continuing as Vice President. Prosecutors has rock-solid evidence.
Agnew went to Nixon and his chief of staff, Haldeman, to stop the investigation. They decided to put pressure on the US Attorney running the investigation, through his brother who was a sitting Senator who Nixon had helped get elected the year before. The guy they enlisted to carry the message from the White House to the USA's brother, was RNC chairman George HW Bush. We know this happened because there are tapes on Nixon's end and documented notes on the USA's end, both mentioning him by name.
Also apparently Obama called in to visit Bush just three days ago, so the two of them could have a chat about the old days.
Jim McGrath was Bush Sr’s post White House spokesperson
They need to rename the emergency services building at DCA after him, since they help save anything that goes wrong with Reagan.
Couscous's comment about him being forced to give a shit about HIV people is pretty much spot on. BUUUUT, at the time HIV was a marginal disease that affected a pretty hated group(the Gays if you felt nice, the Fags or Queers if not). Like 10 000 people worldwide, the vast majority of them Gay. In a world where cancer and heart problems killed because bypass surgery and MRI where experimental tech reserved only for a few test-subjects.
And Gay people where not the marginal group they are today. They where actively hated, discriminated and Marginalized by a large portion of the population. Why? Because there was a wide belief that Gay = perverts and child Molesters . Yes, that was a fairly common belief. One held by a substantial portion of the general population. (Most people's exposure to Gays was either Church propaganda or the occasional gays that approached them in dark alleys and bathroom stalls).
Lets not even get into how much change we have seen with Trans people. I mean up until around 2010-12, you could used Tranny in conversation without people commenting on it. Certainly jokes about "Tranny hookers" was still a thing.
What I am saying is that he was quite Homophobic, but that it was quite a Homophobic time. People should read the book And the Band Played on for how bad it was... then remember its still pretty bad.
Strangely for all his partisan nigh treason with foreign powers (especially Iran), in his pre-Presidential days and his willingness further embed Confederacy and white supremacy as the core of the GOP, you can argue despite the Gulf War he was the most dovish President post WWII except Carter. I also get the impression he was only willing to associate with bigots rather than be one himself but I don't know how mitigating that really is
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
It still creeps me out to see a ton of comments in other places that aren't much different "haha, I am glad this person who hasn't been in power for years is dead. It feels me with glee. No I am not saying I am happy he is no longer able to harm people. I just like that he died and hope he suffered as much as possible. The idea of his death being painful feels me with pleasure."
It makes it a lot worse. It basically puts him in the position of thinking tax policy and whatnot are more important than not associating with bigots.
From a Yale book of quotations:
Nowadays this would start a long running conspiracy theory about him being gay.
To be fair, other than Eisenhower, and even with all the "saving the gop any meaningful change post Nixon putting the on the road that lead to Trump" he was the best Republican President since *checks notes* Ulysses S Grant?!
Some of the gilded age presidents might be higher off because of having done almost nothing depending on how you feel about whether Bush's actions as president were a net good or net ill.
I forgot Teddy was a republican. Yes he was the last good republican President. Although he did try to ditch/kill the party by making his own, so much like Eisenhower I'm not sure how much you can claim he was a "party" representation.
If you're not basically everyone sucks except Obama and maybe Carter.
Come Overwatch with meeeee
I will also recognise that he did many terrible thing that I have either forgotten or didn't know. It's important to acknowledge both.
Yeah, this kind of thing can't be undersold in how important it was.
Or how relevant it remains 100+ years later.
Same as above but only 30 years later.
John Quincy Adams was alright.
For example, Roosevelt's criminal libel cases against two newspapers should be considered horrible and even Trump so far hasn't tried it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt#Latin_America_and_Panama_Canal
Teapot Dome was Harding.
Basically TR thought Taft was doing it wrong, so hold my whiskey...
To be fair it was a hell of a game. For three quarters. And then, darkness.
Switch - SW-7373-3669-3011
Fuck Joe Manchin
But he was also genuinely committed to improving the nation and its citizens, and his declaration that the Americas were the domain of the U.S. was as much to stop the Europeans from using Latin America as their favorite target for domestic crowd-pleasing military actions as it was imperialistic.
The other sons also were in the military in WWI. Even Kermit, who I will always imagine as a muppet no matter how many times I see pictures of him.
Kermit’s son Kermit also went on the be the key man in overthrowing the Iran government. Family legacies in U.S. politics tend to be pretty dark.
Now, there's a sentence.
I always felt Teddy was the best representation of America as a whole in a President, in his mix of both good and bad attributes. A good choice for Presidents to use in Civ games and the like.
It was also based on the perception that he was being pushed around by the right wing of his party. It's important to remember that Bush's main public legacy at that point was as the man who ran as the principled opposition to Reagan in the primary, explaining in depth why ideas like "voodoo economics" were poison, then folded completely when he lost and was offered the Vice Presidency. He was the original "run clips debating himself" pol.
A lot of people never lost their disgust with him over that.
He didn't stop believing Reaganomics was the hokum that it is. That's why he actually raised taxes to start digging out of the hole Regan made.
Which is part of the problem. He spent eight years as VP defending Reagan's policies, ran defending Reagan's policies, then finally reversed himself out of principle in a way that highlighted this disconnect to the point that "Read my lips..." became a catchphrase for "I'm about to lie to you" at the time.
Bush was weak was a phenomenon based on how his party viewed machismo and took his capitulation to Reagan as a sign of a stronger man subjugating a weak one. The media, as the media does, just absorbed the GOP groupthink. There's a lot to unpack in all of that, but it wasn't just his looks that earned that rep.
Maybe his plane crashed into a trench
All right, here's your $5 for winning the contest of "who can string the most slurs together to say the 80s and 90s were homophobic"