George Lucas and Lucasfilm spent more than a decade developing and producing the first Star Wars trilogy, and even longer on the second.
As you guys read from my summary, while Lucas did indeed develop A New Hope over the course of 4+ years, the rest of the films had significantly shorter development periods; usually starting immediately following the previous film’s release. Moreover Lucas never had a firm vision of the entire trilogy, and retroactively changed plot elements and the viewer’s previous interpretations with each new film. That’s not to say that was a strength of the Lucas era, I think Bell’s comparisons with Marvel and Feige are apt. As are his criticism of Disney. But credit where credit is due and all.
He's wrong on more then one point. This one jumped out at me right away:
The Force Awakens (TFA, or Episode VII), writer-director J.J. Abrams set up three major antagonists: Supreme Leader Snoke, Captain Phasma and The Knights of Ren. However, Rian Johnson’s The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) quickly killed the first two and ignored the third.
Like, no? He killed the first one like 3/4s of the way into the film, the other is probably dead and that was still around that same time (can't remember if it's before or after Snoke gets offed honestly) and the third is ignored but then it was barely setup in the first film.
I'm also curious about how TLJ "fell short of expectations". I don't really agree with his take on what is going on with the film, or with Lucas to whom he is trying to compare the approach to. It doesn't gel with what I've ever read of how Star Wars and it's sequels were made.
I agree with his general ideas here about needing more time to develop stuff but I don't think a lot of the examples he gives are accurate or actually support his point. And some of it is just strange.
And I can't get over that it's yet another person not understanding Kylo Ren's apparently now famous line.
"Quickly killed" doesn't refer to the time stamp in the movie where they died. It refers to the abrupt nature of their ends. Neither of them had much of their storytelling potential tapped. Snoke has been talked about ad nauseam, so I won't bother beyond saying that I didn't like it. Phasma on the other hand, was killed off almost as soon as it was revealed she was alive. Bringing her back should have amounted to something interesting, but one lame fight was all she mustered.
I myself would say that Snoke deserved to abruptly die given how J.J. Abrams used him, but Phasma got enough of a setup that it's a shame that nothing was built on it. Beyond her relationship with Finn, there's also the fact that Starkiller base's destruction was kind of her fault, though no one else in the First Order would have any reason to be aware of that.
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
edited December 2018
I saw an idea in another one of these threads that Phasma could come back again for episode IX having inexplicably survived the events of Last Jedi, just as she did in Last Jedi from the events of Force Awakens. And I want that to happen. Aside from "scary chrome-plated soldier", The crux of her character we've seen in the films is "will survive no matter who she has to throw under the bus". (This became her defining character trait in the NewU.)
I still don't even know why anyone cares about Phasma. She's a nothing character in TFA. A generic stand-in.
TLJ actually kinda does something with her. But only in the sense that she symbolizes something to Finn. As a character she remains ... nothing.
It's Boba Fett syndrome or something.
Why bring her back, then? It's the same beat as TFA, not a new take. Finn already confronted his abuser and tossed her in the trash. Either she's nothing but a suit or she represents something, it can't be both, and the ground was already tread.
I still don't even know why anyone cares about Phasma. She's a nothing character in TFA. A generic stand-in.
TLJ actually kinda does something with her. But only in the sense that she symbolizes something to Finn. As a character she remains ... nothing.
It's Boba Fett syndrome or something.
Why bring her back, then? It's the same beat as TFA, not a new take. Finn already confronted his abuser and tossed her in the trash. Either she's nothing but a suit or she represents something, it can't be both, and the ground was already tread.
Fin's initial character arc isn't finished in TFA. Yeah they throw her in a trash chute but he's only there to rescue a friend and he's got a big hero by his side. His confrontation in TLJ is the one that matters. He's finally believing in something and he's standing up for it on his own.
I still don't even know why anyone cares about Phasma. She's a nothing character in TFA. A generic stand-in.
TLJ actually kinda does something with her. But only in the sense that she symbolizes something to Finn. As a character she remains ... nothing.
It's Boba Fett syndrome or something.
Why bring her back, then? It's the same beat as TFA, not a new take. Finn already confronted his abuser and tossed her in the trash. Either she's nothing but a suit or she represents something, it can't be both, and the ground was already tread.
Fin's initial character arc isn't finished in TFA. Yeah they throw her in a trash chute but he's only there to rescue a friend and he's got a big hero by his side. His confrontation in TLJ is the one that matters. He's finally believing in something and he's standing up for it on his own.
Why not make her interesting, then? If it was an important arc, maybe the antagonist should have had more than 3 minutes on screen.
I still don't even know why anyone cares about Phasma. She's a nothing character in TFA. A generic stand-in.
TLJ actually kinda does something with her. But only in the sense that she symbolizes something to Finn. As a character she remains ... nothing.
It's Boba Fett syndrome or something.
Why bring her back, then? It's the same beat as TFA, not a new take. Finn already confronted his abuser and tossed her in the trash. Either she's nothing but a suit or she represents something, it can't be both, and the ground was already tread.
Fin's initial character arc isn't finished in TFA. Yeah they throw her in a trash chute but he's only there to rescue a friend and he's got a big hero by his side. His confrontation in TLJ is the one that matters. He's finally believing in something and he's standing up for it on his own.
Why not make her interesting, then? If it was an important arc, maybe the antagonist should have had more than 3 minutes on screen.
I think she's interesting. Maybe you mean complex? She's not really a character, she's a force. She's the representation of everything Finn fears in the First Order. That's why she's literally faceless, she's his boogeyman made chrome. Giving her too much detail would either make her sympathetic which would run counter to the point, or just pile on how scary she is.
That and there's already a ton of stuff to cover and do.
I still don't even know why anyone cares about Phasma. She's a nothing character in TFA. A generic stand-in.
TLJ actually kinda does something with her. But only in the sense that she symbolizes something to Finn. As a character she remains ... nothing.
It's Boba Fett syndrome or something.
Why bring her back, then? It's the same beat as TFA, not a new take. Finn already confronted his abuser and tossed her in the trash. Either she's nothing but a suit or she represents something, it can't be both, and the ground was already tread.
Fin's initial character arc isn't finished in TFA. Yeah they throw her in a trash chute but he's only there to rescue a friend and he's got a big hero by his side. His confrontation in TLJ is the one that matters. He's finally believing in something and he's standing up for it on his own.
Why not make her interesting, then? If it was an important arc, maybe the antagonist should have had more than 3 minutes on screen.
Because nothing about her importance to Finn's arc requires it. She exists as a symbol of what he is first fleeing and then later fighting. In that sense her never taking off the mask is actually more effective. Time spent developing her character does not seem the best use of limited screen time, given that context.
I do think they probably could and should have done more with her in both films to more firmly fix her place as the stand-in for the First Order in the audiences mind. But it's not really necessary.
It's not strange that she has no real character imo, it's strange that people care about her so much.
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
edited December 2018
Taking off Phasma's mask would run directly counter to her symbolic importance--her entire attitude towards Finn is, "You were supposed to be a faceless soldier, like me." Finn's arc begins in TFA when he's marked with a bloody hand--ie. differentiated, individualized, out of the horde of anonymous (practically clones, really) Storm Troopers. He takes his helmet off and begins constructing a new identity for himself. If we got to see Phasma's face or know her really at all beyond her military function it would undermine the whole point of her character, which is that she believes people should not exist beyond their military function.
Its important too that the only glimpse of her face we see is right before she dies and all we see is anger and hatred. That's all she is under the clean armor and armies of stormtroopers.
Taking off Phasma's mask would run directly counter to her symbolic importance--her entire attitude towards Finn is, "You were supposed to be a faceless soldier, like me." Finn's arc begins in TFA when he's marked with a bloody hand--ie. differentiated, individualized, out of the horde of anonymous (practically clones, really) Storm Troopers. He takes his helmet off and begins constructing a new identity for himself. If we got to see Phasma's face or know her really at all beyond her military function it would undermine the whole point of her character, which is that she believes people should not exist beyond their military function.
There is more too her than faceless obedience. We know this because she turned off the shields to Starkiller Base just for the chance to save her own skin. The deleted scenes for TLJ has her murder other stormtroopers that learned this secret. The faceless mask hides the selfish fraud that doesn't believe her own bullshit. Only it didn't make the movie, only 3 minutes of snores made the cut.
Taking off Phasma's mask would run directly counter to her symbolic importance--her entire attitude towards Finn is, "You were supposed to be a faceless soldier, like me." Finn's arc begins in TFA when he's marked with a bloody hand--ie. differentiated, individualized, out of the horde of anonymous (practically clones, really) Storm Troopers. He takes his helmet off and begins constructing a new identity for himself. If we got to see Phasma's face or know her really at all beyond her military function it would undermine the whole point of her character, which is that she believes people should not exist beyond their military function.
At first, sure, but then she cowardly betrays her own duty in order to save herself. By doing so, she reduced herself to the same level as Finn.
Taking off Phasma's mask would run directly counter to her symbolic importance--her entire attitude towards Finn is, "You were supposed to be a faceless soldier, like me." Finn's arc begins in TFA when he's marked with a bloody hand--ie. differentiated, individualized, out of the horde of anonymous (practically clones, really) Storm Troopers. He takes his helmet off and begins constructing a new identity for himself. If we got to see Phasma's face or know her really at all beyond her military function it would undermine the whole point of her character, which is that she believes people should not exist beyond their military function.
I agree with you, but I’m not sure Gwendolyn Christie does. In the lead up to both movies, and in the interviews that aired during their release she really talked up the character and the opportunity to play a female baddie not defined by her feminine figure. I mean sure it doesn’t take much to get Star Wars fans to obsess about a character, but (and this was also true with Boba Fett) when Lucasfilm itself hypes the character one can be forgiven for wanting them to be more than a faceless goon who gets punked. Twice.
There's a fair amount of Phasma stuff filmed for Episode 8 that apparently didn't make it due to pacing and it being long even without them.
In any case, I feel like if Phasma wasn't being played by Gwendolyn Christie, people wouldn't be quite as bummed about the character being kind of side-lined. Which I guess is kind of self-evident.
I still don't even know why anyone cares about Phasma. She's a nothing character in TFA. A generic stand-in.
TLJ actually kinda does something with her. But only in the sense that she symbolizes something to Finn. As a character she remains ... nothing.
It's Boba Fett syndrome or something.
Why bring her back, then? It's the same beat as TFA, not a new take. Finn already confronted his abuser and tossed her in the trash. Either she's nothing but a suit or she represents something, it can't be both, and the ground was already tread.
Fin's initial character arc isn't finished in TFA. Yeah they throw her in a trash chute but he's only there to rescue a friend and he's got a big hero by his side. His confrontation in TLJ is the one that matters. He's finally believing in something and he's standing up for it on his own.
Why not make her interesting, then? If it was an important arc, maybe the antagonist should have had more than 3 minutes on screen.
I think she's interesting. Maybe you mean complex? She's not really a character, she's a force. She's the representation of everything Finn fears in the First Order. That's why she's literally faceless, she's his boogeyman made chrome. Giving her too much detail would either make her sympathetic which would run counter to the point, or just pile on how scary she is.
That and there's already a ton of stuff to cover and do.
In the EU she's supposed to be have an interesting personality and back story, but that's completely ignored in the movies. Rumor is she'll become a re-occuring villain in the Resistance cartoon. Maybe she'll get to something interesting there than being a tired Boba Fett meta-joke.
AssuranIs swinging on the SpiralRegistered Userregular
My intense dislike of TLJ is well known. This is my opinion and you are free to disagree with it, just as I'm free to disagree with the opinion that The Last Jedi was a good Star Wars movie.
My intense dislike of TLJ is well known. This is my opinion and you are free to disagree with it, just as I'm free to disagree with the opinion that The Last Jedi was a good Star Wars movie.
Your TLJ ranking is not even close to the worst offense above.
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AbsoluteZeroThe new film by Quentin KoopantinoRegistered Userregular
They could have made that casino planet part a little less useless if Phasma was hunting Finn across the galaxy and they were running from her instead of some podunk alien popo.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
Having rewatched everything lately and now that I'm GMing a EotE campaign, time for a new power ranking:
ESB > R1 > Clone Wars > Rebels > ANH > RoTJ > Solo > RotS > TFA >>>>>AotC >>>>>>TPM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>TLJ
To early to judge Resistance.
I think this kind of stuff is interesting to see because I know how long and deep (giggity) you've been into Star Wars. We have similar opinions on Star Wars in general as a property, but your rankings are so much different from mine. And I think thats kind of cool. For me its:
I don't agree that TFA should be as far down as you think. I thought they did a good job with that one and its about on par with ANH since they are basically the same movie. It brought Star Wars back in a good way for me and introduced some great characters and the new storyline. And I clearly have a higher appreciation for RotS. Everything about that movie was worth it just for the anakin fall combined with obi duel and interaction. I liked Rebels, but I'm not sure it deserves being as higher than some of the movies you have it above. Especially not ANH. I'd love to hear your justification for putting Rebels that high. I mean, I get it gave us some great stuff with Ahsoka and Vader and some good new characters, but the great stuff felt sparse compared to Clone Wars.
Having rewatched everything lately and now that I'm GMing a EotE campaign, time for a new power ranking:
ESB > R1 > Clone Wars > Rebels > ANH > RoTJ > Solo > RotS > TFA >>>>>AotC >>>>>>TPM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>TLJ
To early to judge Resistance.
Starting a new FFG SW (sounding pretty EotE right now) in a few weeks. Hot take on hot take!
ESB > ANH > ROTJ > TFA > R1 > Rebels > RotS > Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure > Solo > AotC > That other Ewok movie > Clone Wars > TPM > Star Wars Holiday Special >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TLJ
ESB > ANH > R1 > TLJ > TFA > Solo > the prequels are equally bad, actually
I haven't seen the shows.
ROTJ?
Knew I was forgetting something, thanks.
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AssuranIs swinging on the SpiralRegistered Userregular
edited December 2018
So my justification for Rebels being so high is emotional.
Watching the show, especially the first season, brought me back to my early days playing WEG's Star Wars and I teared up multiple times during the first season.
I will say that everything from Rebels to The Force Awakens can change positions easily depending on my mood. That's why it's a power ranking, the places on the list change periodically.
Assuran on
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Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
I love all the star wars.
But I love tfa the least.
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
ESB>=TLJ
Rebels>=Clone Wars
RotJ
TFA
ANH
---R1---(below this line there is no point watching more than once)
Resistance (this might move up or down as the series unfolds)
Clone Wars (movie)
RotS
TPM
AotC
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
So my justification for Rebels being so high is emotional.
Watching the show, especially the first season, brought me back to my early days playing WEG's Star Wars and I teared up multiple times during the first season.
I will say that everything from Rebels to The Force Awakens can change positions easily depending on my mood. That's why it's a power ranking, the places on the list change periodically.
I didn't realize Rebels mirrored or was that close to Westend Games stuff. I guess its kind of cool that it did that considering the timeframe of the show. I never got into that play system so I wouldn't know.
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I myself would say that Snoke deserved to abruptly die given how J.J. Abrams used him, but Phasma got enough of a setup that it's a shame that nothing was built on it. Beyond her relationship with Finn, there's also the fact that Starkiller base's destruction was kind of her fault, though no one else in the First Order would have any reason to be aware of that.
Kylo immediately falls in love with her.
TLJ actually kinda does something with her. But only in the sense that she symbolizes something to Finn. As a character she remains ... nothing.
It's Boba Fett syndrome or something.
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Why bring her back, then? It's the same beat as TFA, not a new take. Finn already confronted his abuser and tossed her in the trash. Either she's nothing but a suit or she represents something, it can't be both, and the ground was already tread.
Fin's initial character arc isn't finished in TFA. Yeah they throw her in a trash chute but he's only there to rescue a friend and he's got a big hero by his side. His confrontation in TLJ is the one that matters. He's finally believing in something and he's standing up for it on his own.
Why not make her interesting, then? If it was an important arc, maybe the antagonist should have had more than 3 minutes on screen.
I think she's interesting. Maybe you mean complex? She's not really a character, she's a force. She's the representation of everything Finn fears in the First Order. That's why she's literally faceless, she's his boogeyman made chrome. Giving her too much detail would either make her sympathetic which would run counter to the point, or just pile on how scary she is.
That and there's already a ton of stuff to cover and do.
Because nothing about her importance to Finn's arc requires it. She exists as a symbol of what he is first fleeing and then later fighting. In that sense her never taking off the mask is actually more effective. Time spent developing her character does not seem the best use of limited screen time, given that context.
I do think they probably could and should have done more with her in both films to more firmly fix her place as the stand-in for the First Order in the audiences mind. But it's not really necessary.
It's not strange that she has no real character imo, it's strange that people care about her so much.
There is more too her than faceless obedience. We know this because she turned off the shields to Starkiller Base just for the chance to save her own skin. The deleted scenes for TLJ has her murder other stormtroopers that learned this secret. The faceless mask hides the selfish fraud that doesn't believe her own bullshit. Only it didn't make the movie, only 3 minutes of snores made the cut.
At first, sure, but then she cowardly betrays her own duty in order to save herself. By doing so, she reduced herself to the same level as Finn.
I agree with you, but I’m not sure Gwendolyn Christie does. In the lead up to both movies, and in the interviews that aired during their release she really talked up the character and the opportunity to play a female baddie not defined by her feminine figure. I mean sure it doesn’t take much to get Star Wars fans to obsess about a character, but (and this was also true with Boba Fett) when Lucasfilm itself hypes the character one can be forgiven for wanting them to be more than a faceless goon who gets punked. Twice.
In any case, I feel like if Phasma wasn't being played by Gwendolyn Christie, people wouldn't be quite as bummed about the character being kind of side-lined. Which I guess is kind of self-evident.
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In the EU she's supposed to be have an interesting personality and back story, but that's completely ignored in the movies. Rumor is she'll become a re-occuring villain in the Resistance cartoon. Maybe she'll get to something interesting there than being a tired Boba Fett meta-joke.
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ESB > R1 > Clone Wars > Rebels > ANH > RoTJ > Solo > RotS > TFA >>>>>AotC >>>>>>TPM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>TLJ
To early to judge Resistance.
Just. Wow.
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Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
Your TLJ ranking is not even close to the worst offense above.
I think this kind of stuff is interesting to see because I know how long and deep (giggity) you've been into Star Wars. We have similar opinions on Star Wars in general as a property, but your rankings are so much different from mine. And I think thats kind of cool. For me its:
ESB > ANH/TFA > RotS > Clone Wars > RotJ > R1 > Rebels > AotC > Solo >>>>>TPM>>>>>>TLJ
I don't agree that TFA should be as far down as you think. I thought they did a good job with that one and its about on par with ANH since they are basically the same movie. It brought Star Wars back in a good way for me and introduced some great characters and the new storyline. And I clearly have a higher appreciation for RotS. Everything about that movie was worth it just for the anakin fall combined with obi duel and interaction. I liked Rebels, but I'm not sure it deserves being as higher than some of the movies you have it above. Especially not ANH. I'd love to hear your justification for putting Rebels that high. I mean, I get it gave us some great stuff with Ahsoka and Vader and some good new characters, but the great stuff felt sparse compared to Clone Wars.
Fine, then ANH>TFA
ESB > ANH > ROTJ > TFA > R1 > Rebels > RotS > Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure > Solo > AotC > That other Ewok movie > Clone Wars > TPM > Star Wars Holiday Special >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TLJ
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I haven't seen the shows.
ROTJ?
Knew I was forgetting something, thanks.
Watching the show, especially the first season, brought me back to my early days playing WEG's Star Wars and I teared up multiple times during the first season.
I will say that everything from Rebels to The Force Awakens can change positions easily depending on my mood. That's why it's a power ranking, the places on the list change periodically.
But I love tfa the least.
Rebels>=Clone Wars
RotJ
TFA
ANH
---R1---(below this line there is no point watching more than once)
Resistance (this might move up or down as the series unfolds)
Clone Wars (movie)
RotS
TPM
AotC
I am that guy, fight me.