I thought he was "booted" from the black lion because
It wasn't really him, but an evil clone. And a combination of the Black Lion and the spirit of the actual Shiro that was inhabiting the Black Lion that knew this clone shouldn't be its paladin and knew Keith had the potential.
*whispers real low in case I get mobbed* the problems these show creators had with sexuality and representation were all already present in Avatar: LoK and Korra and Asami hooking up in the end was absolutely a way of placating a vocal and toxic fandom disappointed with the overall lackluster quality of the show and it worked hook line and sinker which is way people expected that out of Voltron
But they built up to Korrasami throughout seasons 3 and 4? That wasn't a thing they threw in at the last minute.
And afaik each season (except 2) was received pretty positively.
You interpret Shiro as a disabled/traumatized monster?
Not to mention, that seems to neglect the end of Shiro's arc completely.
What? No. That's what Sendak (or Shiro himself, it's not clear) tells him in Crystal Venom.
Shiro's arc, as explicitly set up in s1-s2, was supposed to be about him facing and overcoming his fears that he's a Galra weapon and/or damaged beyond repair, and thus unworthy to be the Black Paladin. Then he (well, his clone) turns out to be a Galra weapon, his PTSD never gets dealt with, and he's apparently unworthy to be a paladin (though it's never explained why).
The show itself told us, "This is what this character's goal is," and then, later, "...and he doesn't get to achieve it." Or, alternatively, "These are this character's worst fears about himself," and later, "...and he's right."
I don't think you're giving the show credit here as Shiro's story is more complex than that. A big part of his arc is that he's destined for a leadership role but can't fully embrace it because of his background/desire to just be an on-the-ground grunt. The entire final season and penultimate season are about him growing into that role.
...?
As far as we're ever told, Shiro wanted to be two things: an explorer first, and later a paladin. I really don't understand where you're getting the bolded.
If anything, the show seemed to insist to the end that Keith was Destined For Greatness, despite not really giving him an arc to support it.
I started watching Voltron a few weeks before season 5 came out; maybe it's easier to see the story threads when they're not spread out over two years.
As for the Lance/Allura thing, iirc Lance is 18 by the time they start dating. While Allura is somewhere between 19 and 28.
The "pedophilic" ships those tweets are referring to are Shiro/any paladin, but especially Shiro/Keith, after the handbook came out listing Shiro as 25 and the rest of the paladins as teenagers. It was a (silly, imho) concern about the fandom, not the show itself.
Exactly. And he was always destined to be a leader and the show focuses on his struggle to grow into that role.
How does being booted from the Black Lion for no apparent reason fit into that? Especially after an entire episode about Shiro proving himself to the Black Lion, specifically? I'm honestly confused, and honestly curious.
Snarky comment earlier was uncalled for; I apologize. I just legitimately don't understand where you're getting this interpretation, and I would like to. 'Cause the other thing is, Shiro was a competent leader from the very beginning. Keith was the one who needed to grow into a leadership role. (The show skipped the "growth" part of his arc entirely, but that's a different issue.)
Yeah, as mentioned above he wasn't booted from the Black Lion for no reason. There were a bunch of reasons and it was a big part of that season and the ensuing seasons.
We never see Shiro as a true leader until he moves away from the Black Lion. Yes, the Black Lion is the "leader" of Voltron but even then he's still an on-the-ground commander. Shiro's character arc reaches its zenith when he becomes commander of the Atlas and becomes a leader of the EDF - moving away from his duties on Voltron to become something more.
I'd actually argue that once Shiro moved on from Voltron the nature of leadership for the Paladins changed too with them becoming a more cohesive unit. Yes, Keith became the Black (lead) lion but they were all leaders in their own rights too.
Nothing was skipped - it's all there and it all makes sense.
I think it might be kind of hard to draw that through-line. The production crew has said before that Shiro was actually supposed to die permanently in the battle with Zarkon and he was only brought back because fans loved him so much. His character arc was extended, and did not originally include anything after season... what, 4?
I think it might be kind of hard to draw that through-line. The production crew has said before that Shiro was actually supposed to die permanently in the battle with Zarkon and he was only brought back because fans loved him so much. His character arc was extended, and did not originally include anything after season... what, 4?
2.
The Paladins fought and defeated Zarkon in season 2.
No you're right in that the intended for him to die. But it's not like the change in direction meant just not killing him. It also involved them writing a complete and longer character arc for him.
Keith was always supposed to pilot the Black Lion and since they kept Shiro around because he was so loved by fans, they needed to write in another way to move him out of that role and find something else for him to do. I think it worked out well. Also, keeping him alive let them give Keith some more room to grow because they could let Shiro still pilot the Black Lion for the time being.
I thought he was "booted" from the black lion because
It wasn't really him, but an evil clone. And a combination of the Black Lion and the spirit of the actual Shiro that was inhabiting the Black Lion that knew this clone shouldn't be its paladin and knew Keith had the potential.
I meant after he came back.
Shiro was supposed to be the Black Paladin again after coming back from the dead, but dos Santos and Montgomery were dead set on Keith, so they persuaded their bosses at DreamWorks to let them put Shiro in the Atlas instead (they bragged about this in an interview). Except the animation was already done, so they had to butcher edit S7 at the last minute. That's why Shiro spends most of S7 literally standing around doing nothing; that's why Keith has Shiro's speech patterns and mannerisms in several scenes; that's why staff interviews from before S7 dropped refer to the red and black Lions as if Keith and Shiro were flying them, respectively.
You interpret Shiro as a disabled/traumatized monster?
Not to mention, that seems to neglect the end of Shiro's arc completely.
What? No. That's what Sendak (or Shiro himself, it's not clear) tells him in Crystal Venom.
Shiro's arc, as explicitly set up in s1-s2, was supposed to be about him facing and overcoming his fears that he's a Galra weapon and/or damaged beyond repair, and thus unworthy to be the Black Paladin. Then he (well, his clone) turns out to be a Galra weapon, his PTSD never gets dealt with, and he's apparently unworthy to be a paladin (though it's never explained why).
The show itself told us, "This is what this character's goal is," and then, later, "...and he doesn't get to achieve it." Or, alternatively, "These are this character's worst fears about himself," and later, "...and he's right."
I don't think you're giving the show credit here as Shiro's story is more complex than that. A big part of his arc is that he's destined for a leadership role but can't fully embrace it because of his background/desire to just be an on-the-ground grunt. The entire final season and penultimate season are about him growing into that role.
...?
As far as we're ever told, Shiro wanted to be two things: an explorer first, and later a paladin. I really don't understand where you're getting the bolded.
If anything, the show seemed to insist to the end that Keith was Destined For Greatness, despite not really giving him an arc to support it.
I started watching Voltron a few weeks before season 5 came out; maybe it's easier to see the story threads when they're not spread out over two years.
As for the Lance/Allura thing, iirc Lance is 18 by the time they start dating. While Allura is somewhere between 19 and 28.
The "pedophilic" ships those tweets are referring to are Shiro/any paladin, but especially Shiro/Keith, after the handbook came out listing Shiro as 25 and the rest of the paladins as teenagers. It was a (silly, imho) concern about the fandom, not the show itself.
Exactly. And he was always destined to be a leader and the show focuses on his struggle to grow into that role.
How does being booted from the Black Lion for no apparent reason fit into that? Especially after an entire episode about Shiro proving himself to the Black Lion, specifically? I'm honestly confused, and honestly curious.
Snarky comment earlier was uncalled for; I apologize. I just legitimately don't understand where you're getting this interpretation, and I would like to. 'Cause the other thing is, Shiro was a competent leader from the very beginning. Keith was the one who needed to grow into a leadership role. (The show skipped the "growth" part of his arc entirely, but that's a different issue.)
Yeah, as mentioned above he wasn't booted from the Black Lion for no reason. There were a bunch of reasons and it was a big part of that season and the ensuing seasons. We never see Shiro as a true leader until he moves away from the Black Lion. Yes, the Black Lion is the "leader" of Voltron but even then he's still an on-the-ground commander. Shiro's character arc reaches its zenith when he becomes commander of the Atlas and becomes a leader of the EDF - moving away from his duties on Voltron to become something more.
I'd actually argue that once Shiro moved on from Voltron the nature of leadership for the Paladins changed too with them becoming a more cohesive unit. Yes, Keith became the Black (lead) lion but they were all leaders in their own rights too.
Nothing was skipped - it's all there and it all makes sense.
Again, I do not understand your perspective here. I think maybe you and I have different definitions of leadership, because I can point to dozens of examples from S1-S2 and a fair few from Kuron.
What I mean when I say they skipped Keith's growth is that from S3 to S6, Keith hated leading Voltron. He handed it back to (who he thought was) Shiro the first chance he got, so he never had a chance to grow past his inexperience. Then he spends two years alone with his mom on a space whale, and suddenly he's got leadership skills? When did that happen?
And given everything we know of Keith and Shiro up to that point, why wouldn't Shiro resume piloting Black? Keith took the black lion to rescue Shiro. It's telling that when he needs to get back to the team in a hurry, he doesn't try to bond more deeply with the black lion; instead he cries out for Shiro to help him. Because he still thinks of Black as Shiro's lion.
The show could have given us a reason why Shiro isn't a paladin anymore - or even a single line of dialogue acknowledging it - but it didn't.
And later that same season, it showed us Shiro watching motionless while Zethrid tortures Pidge, ostensibly because his hand is cuffed to his belt.
That doesn't make any sense. Why would Keith not be piloting a Lion. Why would Keith not move to the Black Lion. Season 7 wouldn't make any sense with Shiro piloting the Black Lion. That just doesn't follow at all. So Keith goes back to the Red, Lance goes back to the Blue and Allura just doesn't get to pilot one anymore? That's insane. Why would that be preferential?
I just finished season 7 this morning and I also didn't notice any of this supposed "speech/mannerisms" problem you're assuming is there. Also most of season 7 they're all stuck in their Lions no one that isn't a paladin had much to do.
Everyone sat there motionless while that was going on. They were all in the same room with guns pointed at them.
I'm on episode 9 of Season 8 and I've been watching/listening to episodes back to back all day while working and I haven't seen any problem with the writing of these episodes so far except for Ezor just showing up but it would be totally believable that she showed up on Earth when all of the other Voltron Alliance races did and just stayed stealthed to hide or that Acxa got in touch with her.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I did not like the conflict of the final seasons, how they resolved the conflict, or really the overall consequences.
Hey, Allura is gonna use a pure evil plot device to find Hagar! Surely it won’t come back to bite them in the ass.
...
What do you mean it doesn’t?
...
What do you mean is was necessary to save the souls of four people trapped in an eternal hell and also all of existence apparently?
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I did not like the conflict of the final seasons, how they resolved the conflict, or really the overall consequences.
Hey, Allura is gonna use a pure evil plot device to find Hagar! Surely it won’t come back to bite them in the ass.
...
What do you mean it doesn’t?
...
What do you mean is was necessary to save the souls of four people trapped in an eternal hell and also all of existence apparently?
I was initially under the impression that she was being manipulated into using it by Honerva, but I guess it really was Lotor's ghost(?) after all.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Thoughts on the last couple episodes. Or at least one specific thing, and then the ending.
-Super Voltron God Super Voltron, eh? Sure, since we're not getting Vehicle Voltron.
-Had to kill the Blue Lion Pilot, no matter what, I guess. Shoulda seen that one coming.
-Slideshow ending was weird. It's not that I don't like it, but... something felt off.
-Vehicle Voltron! Woooooooo~!
...
Wait, why didn't we ever get to see what Blue Lion adds to Voltron? Yellow's got the shoulder cannon, Red was the sword, Green was the back cannon... where's Blue?
Thoughts on the last couple episodes. Or at least one specific thing, and then the ending.
-Super Voltron God Super Voltron, eh? Sure, since we're not getting Vehicle Voltron.
-Had to kill the Blue Lion Pilot, no matter what, I guess. Shoulda seen that one coming.
-Slideshow ending was weird. It's not that I don't like it, but... something felt off.
-Vehicle Voltron! Woooooooo~!
...
Wait, why didn't we ever get to see what Blue Lion adds to Voltron? Yellow's got the shoulder cannon, Red was the sword, Green was the back cannon... where's Blue?
Thoughts on the last couple episodes. Or at least one specific thing, and then the ending.
-Super Voltron God Super Voltron, eh? Sure, since we're not getting Vehicle Voltron.
-Had to kill the Blue Lion Pilot, no matter what, I guess. Shoulda seen that one coming.
-Slideshow ending was weird. It's not that I don't like it, but... something felt off.
-Vehicle Voltron! Woooooooo~!
...
Wait, why didn't we ever get to see what Blue Lion adds to Voltron? Yellow's got the shoulder cannon, Red was the sword, Green was the back cannon... where's Blue?
shield, wasn't it?
Nope.
The other Paladins got a "my Bayard lock just popped up" moment, and Lance/Allura never did.
Thoughts on the last couple episodes. Or at least one specific thing, and then the ending.
-Super Voltron God Super Voltron, eh? Sure, since we're not getting Vehicle Voltron.
-Had to kill the Blue Lion Pilot, no matter what, I guess. Shoulda seen that one coming.
-Slideshow ending was weird. It's not that I don't like it, but... something felt off.
-Vehicle Voltron! Woooooooo~!
...
Wait, why didn't we ever get to see what Blue Lion adds to Voltron? Yellow's got the shoulder cannon, Red was the sword, Green was the back cannon... where's Blue?
shield, wasn't it?
Nope.
The other Paladins got a "my Bayard lock just popped up" moment, and Lance/Allura never did.
Not by itself
But there were a few scenes where Blue and Yellow’s bayards activate together and Voltron gets leg rocket launchers
I thought he was "booted" from the black lion because
It wasn't really him, but an evil clone. And a combination of the Black Lion and the spirit of the actual Shiro that was inhabiting the Black Lion that knew this clone shouldn't be its paladin and knew Keith had the potential.
I meant after he came back.
Shiro was supposed to be the Black Paladin again after coming back from the dead, but dos Santos and Montgomery were dead set on Keith, so they persuaded their bosses at DreamWorks to let them put Shiro in the Atlas instead (they bragged about this in an interview). Except the animation was already done, so they had to butcher edit S7 at the last minute. That's why Shiro spends most of S7 literally standing around doing nothing; that's why Keith has Shiro's speech patterns and mannerisms in several scenes; that's why staff interviews from before S7 dropped refer to the red and black Lions as if Keith and Shiro were flying them, respectively.
You interpret Shiro as a disabled/traumatized monster?
Not to mention, that seems to neglect the end of Shiro's arc completely.
What? No. That's what Sendak (or Shiro himself, it's not clear) tells him in Crystal Venom.
Shiro's arc, as explicitly set up in s1-s2, was supposed to be about him facing and overcoming his fears that he's a Galra weapon and/or damaged beyond repair, and thus unworthy to be the Black Paladin. Then he (well, his clone) turns out to be a Galra weapon, his PTSD never gets dealt with, and he's apparently unworthy to be a paladin (though it's never explained why).
The show itself told us, "This is what this character's goal is," and then, later, "...and he doesn't get to achieve it." Or, alternatively, "These are this character's worst fears about himself," and later, "...and he's right."
I don't think you're giving the show credit here as Shiro's story is more complex than that. A big part of his arc is that he's destined for a leadership role but can't fully embrace it because of his background/desire to just be an on-the-ground grunt. The entire final season and penultimate season are about him growing into that role.
...?
As far as we're ever told, Shiro wanted to be two things: an explorer first, and later a paladin. I really don't understand where you're getting the bolded.
If anything, the show seemed to insist to the end that Keith was Destined For Greatness, despite not really giving him an arc to support it.
I started watching Voltron a few weeks before season 5 came out; maybe it's easier to see the story threads when they're not spread out over two years.
As for the Lance/Allura thing, iirc Lance is 18 by the time they start dating. While Allura is somewhere between 19 and 28.
The "pedophilic" ships those tweets are referring to are Shiro/any paladin, but especially Shiro/Keith, after the handbook came out listing Shiro as 25 and the rest of the paladins as teenagers. It was a (silly, imho) concern about the fandom, not the show itself.
Exactly. And he was always destined to be a leader and the show focuses on his struggle to grow into that role.
How does being booted from the Black Lion for no apparent reason fit into that? Especially after an entire episode about Shiro proving himself to the Black Lion, specifically? I'm honestly confused, and honestly curious.
Snarky comment earlier was uncalled for; I apologize. I just legitimately don't understand where you're getting this interpretation, and I would like to. 'Cause the other thing is, Shiro was a competent leader from the very beginning. Keith was the one who needed to grow into a leadership role. (The show skipped the "growth" part of his arc entirely, but that's a different issue.)
Yeah, as mentioned above he wasn't booted from the Black Lion for no reason. There were a bunch of reasons and it was a big part of that season and the ensuing seasons. We never see Shiro as a true leader until he moves away from the Black Lion. Yes, the Black Lion is the "leader" of Voltron but even then he's still an on-the-ground commander. Shiro's character arc reaches its zenith when he becomes commander of the Atlas and becomes a leader of the EDF - moving away from his duties on Voltron to become something more.
I'd actually argue that once Shiro moved on from Voltron the nature of leadership for the Paladins changed too with them becoming a more cohesive unit. Yes, Keith became the Black (lead) lion but they were all leaders in their own rights too.
Nothing was skipped - it's all there and it all makes sense.
Again, I do not understand your perspective here. I think maybe you and I have different definitions of leadership, because I can point to dozens of examples from S1-S2 and a fair few from Kuron.
What I mean when I say they skipped Keith's growth is that from S3 to S6, Keith hated leading Voltron. He handed it back to (who he thought was) Shiro the first chance he got, so he never had a chance to grow past his inexperience. Then he spends two years alone with his mom on a space whale, and suddenly he's got leadership skills? When did that happen?
And given everything we know of Keith and Shiro up to that point, why wouldn't Shiro resume piloting Black? Keith took the black lion to rescue Shiro. It's telling that when he needs to get back to the team in a hurry, he doesn't try to bond more deeply with the black lion; instead he cries out for Shiro to help him. Because he still thinks of Black as Shiro's lion.
The show could have given us a reason why Shiro isn't a paladin anymore - or even a single line of dialogue acknowledging it - but it didn't.
And later that same season, it showed us Shiro watching motionless while Zethrid tortures Pidge, ostensibly because his hand is cuffed to his belt.
I think you and I just disagree friend. I'm sorry you didn't like it. I loved it.
Just finished the final season. I thought it was fine. Though by the last episode the whole "Voltron/the lions are out of energy and we can't move but then all of a sudden we can move at the last second thanks to the power of friendship and rousing speeches" thing started to wear a bit thin. I also think they'd have been better served to keep Knights of Light as one episode and put the extra episode time into Zenith and put a little more into the organization of Krolia and Shay coming to help and maybe give some time for Acxa, Zethrid, and Ezor to do something.
Regarding Shiro, I don't have a problem with his epilogue.
From the aging that happens with the photo before the epilogue slides start its obvious these events take place *years* after "one year later" that happens toward the end of the last episode. So I don't really see a problem with Shiro's epilogue being that he found love again and lived happily ever after. It was even the Atlas crewmember that was there cheering him on at the arm wrestling contest before the rest of the paladins showed up.
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The GeekOh-Two Crew, OmeganautRegistered User, ClubPAregular
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But they built up to Korrasami throughout seasons 3 and 4? That wasn't a thing they threw in at the last minute.
And afaik each season (except 2) was received pretty positively.
"hmm we need to get someone more exciting in here"
Cut immediately to Coran telling an overdramatic version of events, complete with sound effects. lol
Yeah, as mentioned above he wasn't booted from the Black Lion for no reason. There were a bunch of reasons and it was a big part of that season and the ensuing seasons.
We never see Shiro as a true leader until he moves away from the Black Lion. Yes, the Black Lion is the "leader" of Voltron but even then he's still an on-the-ground commander. Shiro's character arc reaches its zenith when he becomes commander of the Atlas and becomes a leader of the EDF - moving away from his duties on Voltron to become something more.
I'd actually argue that once Shiro moved on from Voltron the nature of leadership for the Paladins changed too with them becoming a more cohesive unit. Yes, Keith became the Black (lead) lion but they were all leaders in their own rights too.
Nothing was skipped - it's all there and it all makes sense.
2.
The Paladins fought and defeated Zarkon in season 2.
Well then, in that case I certainly hope I didn't make up that thing about Shiro's death originally being permanent
I meant after he came back.
Shiro was supposed to be the Black Paladin again after coming back from the dead, but dos Santos and Montgomery were dead set on Keith, so they persuaded their bosses at DreamWorks to let them put Shiro in the Atlas instead (they bragged about this in an interview). Except the animation was already done, so they had to butcher edit S7 at the last minute. That's why Shiro spends most of S7 literally standing around doing nothing; that's why Keith has Shiro's speech patterns and mannerisms in several scenes; that's why staff interviews from before S7 dropped refer to the red and black Lions as if Keith and Shiro were flying them, respectively.
Again, I do not understand your perspective here. I think maybe you and I have different definitions of leadership, because I can point to dozens of examples from S1-S2 and a fair few from Kuron.
What I mean when I say they skipped Keith's growth is that from S3 to S6, Keith hated leading Voltron. He handed it back to (who he thought was) Shiro the first chance he got, so he never had a chance to grow past his inexperience. Then he spends two years alone with his mom on a space whale, and suddenly he's got leadership skills? When did that happen?
And given everything we know of Keith and Shiro up to that point, why wouldn't Shiro resume piloting Black? Keith took the black lion to rescue Shiro. It's telling that when he needs to get back to the team in a hurry, he doesn't try to bond more deeply with the black lion; instead he cries out for Shiro to help him. Because he still thinks of Black as Shiro's lion.
The show could have given us a reason why Shiro isn't a paladin anymore - or even a single line of dialogue acknowledging it - but it didn't.
And later that same season, it showed us Shiro watching motionless while Zethrid tortures Pidge, ostensibly because his hand is cuffed to his belt.
I just finished season 7 this morning and I also didn't notice any of this supposed "speech/mannerisms" problem you're assuming is there. Also most of season 7 they're all stuck in their Lions no one that isn't a paladin had much to do.
Everyone sat there motionless while that was going on. They were all in the same room with guns pointed at them.
...
What do you mean it doesn’t?
...
What do you mean is was necessary to save the souls of four people trapped in an eternal hell and also all of existence apparently?
No, see, that would have made sense. Instead of what we got.
-Had to kill the Blue Lion Pilot, no matter what, I guess. Shoulda seen that one coming.
-Slideshow ending was weird. It's not that I don't like it, but... something felt off.
-Vehicle Voltron! Woooooooo~!
...
Wait, why didn't we ever get to see what Blue Lion adds to Voltron? Yellow's got the shoulder cannon, Red was the sword, Green was the back cannon... where's Blue?
shield, wasn't it?
Not by itself
I think you and I just disagree friend. I'm sorry you didn't like it. I loved it.
Regarding Shiro, I don't have a problem with his epilogue.