I think open offices are a fucking hellscape so we’re probably at an impasse on this one.
That's fair, although I confess I'm curious as to why you loathe them so
We had a discussion on this a few threads back. Someone (I think in the UK?) did a small study, so not necessarily a universal explanation, but it clarified what the biggest problem is. It appeared that if the desired outcome was open interaction and collaboration, the open office space did the opposite. In a nutshell, people want to be able to have some privacy, and they'll find ways to make that happen. In an open office, that means refusing to make eye contact with coworkers and communicating via instant messages with people who are within talking distance.
This mirrors my experience. I worked in cubes for more than a decade before eventually moving to a one-per-office environment. I am far, far more likely here to stop in a colleague's office to chat than I was in the other space.
Different people have wildly different needs for focusing on work. I do fairly well in open offices because engaging with people is something I need when working. For introverts in particular, open offices require an enormous amount of energy to deal with, and focus is basically impossible.
I dunno if that's Tube's particular issue, but there are some people that open offices work for (assuming they're able to manage their social impulses) and a lot of people for whom they are pretty torturous.
I should add I love my coworkers on my immediate team. They are generally fun people and my hatred of the environment is in no way related to my thoughts of them. I just can't deal with the constant stimulation of seeing so many people and the noise and the feeling of absolutely no privacy 8 hours straight. I like what I do and I like who I do it with I just really thought I'd have adjusted to this new workspace by now.
So this week should be interesting, should be the week where prepping for my new role in the company starts. Trick being that role doesn’t actually exist yet and we will get to define it as we grow into it.
The gist of it, to me, is that we are basically a tech start up that uses a software as a service model, subscription based pay, etc. We are relatively new and have done a great job of growing, but now our issue is retention of accounts and we really don’t have anyone that is really specialized on that front.
Poking around online the job title that sounds like what I should be doing is Customer Success Manager, so I’ve got some literature related to that coming to me in the post. But this is definitely some new territory for me and the company.
I am loathe to try to have a conversation with somebody in an open office because it feels like our conversation is a performance play for everyone else to listen in on. Thankfully my floor is a cube farm, though only chest-high walls so people walking by still distract me (with their presence, let alone conversation).
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Drake ChambersLay out my formal shorts.Registered Userregular
I should add I love my coworkers on my immediate team. They are generally fun people and my hatred of the environment is in no way related to my thoughts of them. I just can't deal with the constant stimulation of seeing so many people and the noise and the feeling of absolutely no privacy 8 hours straight. I like what I do and I like who I do it with I just really thought I'd have adjusted to this new workspace by now.
I don't suffer from any kind of social anxiety at all, yet the most uncomfortable days in my professional life have been when I was "training" someone by sharing a space with them for the entire working day. It could even be a person I liked! It doesn't matter. The majority of people need to have their own damn space sometimes.
I guess my current office is more like a hybrid? If I sit down and put on my headphones I basically can’t see or hear anyone. If I put my desk into standing mode, I can see everyone and the office is small enough that I could have a conversation across the room without raising my voice. It’s really flexible!
I think probably it comes down to office culture too. Here we have lots of healthy engagement and communication, personal and work related. If I didn't sit within five open yards of everyone on our dozen person team, I wouldn't feel nearly as personally or professionally close to them, and that's resulted in a very strong team. But if it was a different work environment and culture, I can understand hating it.
It's probably a personality thing too. I am painfully introverted. I've been reading a lot this morning on open offices and it's clear I'm not alone in finding work in them extremely difficult. I'm debating more if I should loop my boss in on my struggles just so she'll understand more why I sometimes need an extra work from home day.
My experience with an open office was three to four people talking loudly on speaker phone and literally no team work stuff being done that we couldn't just head over to a conference room with a laptop or two and accomplish the same goals with.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
My work is primarily writing and there is nothing less conducive to writing than constantly being interrupted. My current office environment isn't perfect and distraction free, but I can close the door to my office and generally be left alone. Which is good, because I have a huge deadline in two days and I haven't started yet so look forward to a lot of forum posts from me today.
Different kinds of work may benefit or be detracted by an open office, absolutely
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Drake ChambersLay out my formal shorts.Registered Userregular
I have relatively mild misophonia that triggers on the sound of people chewing so that was another major strike for me in a cube environment. Headphones were a really important solution at those times.
For my neighbor that clipped his nails in his cube, I basically had to drop whatever I was doing and go for a walk until it was over. I can feel my blood pressure spiking just remembering those times.
I don't mind being in cubicle land for the most part but there is a lady who sits a few desks away who sometimes talks while she needs to clear her throat and it's super gross. Just clear your throat how do you not notice!!
Collaboration spaces are great, however a lot of work (software development, writing, focused analysis etc.) benefits or relies on uninterrupted flow, which open offices largely prevent from happening. Ideally, people have cubes or desks, but have the option to occupy open team rooms or sections (temp walls with sound absorbers) as they see fit.
The reality of open office trends is that in pure green dollar terms you save a ton as you can hit 150-200% stack rate vs traditional office spacing.
Collaboration spaces are great, however a lot of work (software development, writing, focused analysis etc.) benefits or relies on uninterrupted flow, which open offices largely prevent from happening. Ideally, people have cubes or desks, but have the option to occupy open team rooms or sections (temp walls with sound absorbers) as they see fit.
The reality of open office trends is that in pure green dollar terms you save a ton as you can hit 150-200% stack rate vs traditional office spacing.
Nothing like working on what's essentially an algebraic word problem for 50 minutes to have someone come in and interrupt me for 8 minutes and lose my train of thought.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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Drake ChambersLay out my formal shorts.Registered Userregular
Collaboration spaces are great, however a lot of work (software development, writing, focused analysis etc.) benefits or relies on uninterrupted flow, which open offices largely prevent from happening. Ideally, people have cubes or desks, but have the option to occupy open team rooms or sections (temp walls with sound absorbers) as they see fit. The reality of open office trends is that in pure green dollar terms you save a ton as you can hit 150-200% stack rate vs traditional office spacing.
This is the bottom line and the real motivation for having these spaces. Management can tout Collaboration! and Team Building! till the end of time, and in some cases it might even be true as a collateral benefit, but ultimately offices will be open because it's cheaper.
Collaboration spaces are great, however a lot of work (software development, writing, focused analysis etc.) benefits or relies on uninterrupted flow, which open offices largely prevent from happening. Ideally, people have cubes or desks, but have the option to occupy open team rooms or sections (temp walls with sound absorbers) as they see fit.
The reality of open office trends is that in pure green dollar terms you save a ton as you can hit 150-200% stack rate vs traditional office spacing.
Nothing like working on what's essentially an algebraic word problem for 50 minutes to have someone come in and interrupt me for 8 minutes and lose my train of thought.
This can happen in any working environment though, no?
In an open office environment people might come up to you while your busy and your coworker next to you will say "they're just looking at X, can I help you?" and I actually feel that's a strong benefit of such an environment; flexibility of assistance and support. Sometimes you're asking someone else a question and third person will overhear and provide a relevant bit of information. I find that really useful, personally.
I thought headphones were generally frowned upon in open offices because they limit interaction.
A lot of people at my work wear headphones at work, even if it's not necessary for their job. I wear headphones basically all day every day, but I'm also a department of 1 so I don't really interact with my coworkers at all.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
I get my own office (fancy) but I do most of my work in the lab. The lab is, by its nature, open office-y, but since we are all moving around doing our work it doesn't seem so stifling as an actual desk surrounded by people might be. I have to share my office when the other offices start to fill up, and oh man, I am not a fan.
If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
I thought headphones were generally frowned upon in open offices because they limit interaction.
Depends on the office I think. I ask about it in interviews because I generally need to be able to listen to music while working or I'll be both unproductive and unhappy.
Collaboration spaces are great, however a lot of work (software development, writing, focused analysis etc.) benefits or relies on uninterrupted flow, which open offices largely prevent from happening. Ideally, people have cubes or desks, but have the option to occupy open team rooms or sections (temp walls with sound absorbers) as they see fit.
The reality of open office trends is that in pure green dollar terms you save a ton as you can hit 150-200% stack rate vs traditional office spacing.
Nothing like working on what's essentially an algebraic word problem for 50 minutes to have someone come in and interrupt me for 8 minutes and lose my train of thought.
This can happen in any working environment though, no?
In an open office environment people might come up to you while your busy and your coworker next to you will say "they're just looking at X, can I help you?" and I actually feel that's a strong benefit of such an environment; flexibility of assistance and support. Sometimes you're asking someone else a question and third person will overhear and provide a relevant bit of information. I find that really useful, personally.
Yeah I was just bemoaning coworkers.
The noise level doesn't help me in open office situations. Even a coworker saying that would be equivalent to someone just waltzing in and interrupting me.
It got to the point where I had to close my office door because I had so many interruptions a day. Then they just started opening the door. So I had to lock it. Now they just knock until I open. I swear I work in some elseworld level crazy place where people completely forget how to function in a society. Every time I go to post about something about work there's a little voice in my head that goes "really no one's going to believe how crazy this is, why are you posting it?"
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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Librarian's ghostLibrarian, Ghostbuster, and TimSporkRegistered Userregular
They "finished" construction of the new school main office and entrance. Everything is broken and on fire.
Honestly I don't believe that it's specifically your workplace; interruptions just seem to be a fact of office life regardless of where you are and how you lay it out.
My old open plan office had a headphone rule, where you were not allowed to talk to people who had headphones on. It only really worked if you were able to be shockingly rude to people who tried to break it, which is why it worked really well for Icy and really badly for me.
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MrMonroepassed outon the floor nowRegistered Userregular
Collaboration spaces are great, however a lot of work (software development, writing, focused analysis etc.) benefits or relies on uninterrupted flow, which open offices largely prevent from happening. Ideally, people have cubes or desks, but have the option to occupy open team rooms or sections (temp walls with sound absorbers) as they see fit.
The reality of open office trends is that in pure green dollar terms you save a ton as you can hit 150-200% stack rate vs traditional office spacing.
Nothing like working on what's essentially an algebraic word problem for 50 minutes to have someone come in and interrupt me for 8 minutes and lose my train of thought.
You're also a working without a pm or engineering manager or any other devs, right?
Kinda limits the opportunities for effective collaboration when everyone who could possibly interact with you at the office is in a completely different line of work and understands yours not at all.
I do not generally find collaboration to be very useful, and when I do need it I go and seek it out.
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Drake ChambersLay out my formal shorts.Registered Userregular
According to our unwritten rule here, if you're available but want to be left alone, close your door but leave it slightly ajar. Need to be left alone? Close your door completely.
In my experience this works pretty well. Closing the door practically guarantees you'll be left alone as most of us are in and out frequently enough that a closed door more likely than not means that person is out of the office.
@Solar interruptions can occur in non-open as well, but are nowhere near as common as in open. In the open office I get distracted by shreds of conversations if I don't have headphones on. It's quite obnoxious.
My old open plan office had a headphone rule, where you were not allowed to talk to people who had headphones on. It only really worked if you were able to be shockingly rude to people who tried to break it, which is why it worked really well for Icy and really badly for me.
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We had a discussion on this a few threads back. Someone (I think in the UK?) did a small study, so not necessarily a universal explanation, but it clarified what the biggest problem is. It appeared that if the desired outcome was open interaction and collaboration, the open office space did the opposite. In a nutshell, people want to be able to have some privacy, and they'll find ways to make that happen. In an open office, that means refusing to make eye contact with coworkers and communicating via instant messages with people who are within talking distance.
This mirrors my experience. I worked in cubes for more than a decade before eventually moving to a one-per-office environment. I am far, far more likely here to stop in a colleague's office to chat than I was in the other space.
I dunno if that's Tube's particular issue, but there are some people that open offices work for (assuming they're able to manage their social impulses) and a lot of people for whom they are pretty torturous.
The gist of it, to me, is that we are basically a tech start up that uses a software as a service model, subscription based pay, etc. We are relatively new and have done a great job of growing, but now our issue is retention of accounts and we really don’t have anyone that is really specialized on that front.
Poking around online the job title that sounds like what I should be doing is Customer Success Manager, so I’ve got some literature related to that coming to me in the post. But this is definitely some new territory for me and the company.
I don't suffer from any kind of social anxiety at all, yet the most uncomfortable days in my professional life have been when I was "training" someone by sharing a space with them for the entire working day. It could even be a person I liked! It doesn't matter. The majority of people need to have their own damn space sometimes.
But then I'm on the loud team, so I imagine our neighbors have a different opinion.
For my neighbor that clipped his nails in his cube, I basically had to drop whatever I was doing and go for a walk until it was over. I can feel my blood pressure spiking just remembering those times.
The reality of open office trends is that in pure green dollar terms you save a ton as you can hit 150-200% stack rate vs traditional office spacing.
Nothing like working on what's essentially an algebraic word problem for 50 minutes to have someone come in and interrupt me for 8 minutes and lose my train of thought.
This is the bottom line and the real motivation for having these spaces. Management can tout Collaboration! and Team Building! till the end of time, and in some cases it might even be true as a collateral benefit, but ultimately offices will be open because it's cheaper.
This can happen in any working environment though, no?
In an open office environment people might come up to you while your busy and your coworker next to you will say "they're just looking at X, can I help you?" and I actually feel that's a strong benefit of such an environment; flexibility of assistance and support. Sometimes you're asking someone else a question and third person will overhear and provide a relevant bit of information. I find that really useful, personally.
Did we ever get your take on Gargamel's fuck style?
A lot of people at my work wear headphones at work, even if it's not necessary for their job. I wear headphones basically all day every day, but I'm also a department of 1 so I don't really interact with my coworkers at all.
I moved from an open office to a cube farm and it was the first time I didn't feel constantly anxious at work in over a year.
Depends on the office I think. I ask about it in interviews because I generally need to be able to listen to music while working or I'll be both unproductive and unhappy.
World as Myth is both cooler AND stronger than you, discuss.
Gargamel is an incel
I would certainly find it easier to find supporting evidence for that opinion than I would to argue against it.
Yeah I was just bemoaning coworkers.
The noise level doesn't help me in open office situations. Even a coworker saying that would be equivalent to someone just waltzing in and interrupting me.
It got to the point where I had to close my office door because I had so many interruptions a day. Then they just started opening the door. So I had to lock it. Now they just knock until I open. I swear I work in some elseworld level crazy place where people completely forget how to function in a society. Every time I go to post about something about work there's a little voice in my head that goes "really no one's going to believe how crazy this is, why are you posting it?"
Which means I've passed my probation and they're happy to financially invest in me
Time to get my study on.... For two and a half years!
You're also a working without a pm or engineering manager or any other devs, right?
Kinda limits the opportunities for effective collaboration when everyone who could possibly interact with you at the office is in a completely different line of work and understands yours not at all.
In my experience this works pretty well. Closing the door practically guarantees you'll be left alone as most of us are in and out frequently enough that a closed door more likely than not means that person is out of the office.
What ever happened to Icy?