Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA
The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

US Govt Shutdown 2018: It's a Trump Christmas Shutdown!

1959698100101

Posts

  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    Graham said that yesterday too. And it is because he knows there is no other way to reopen the government outside of Congress overriding a veto which is the kiss of death for all of the Congressional Republicans. Though that is the legitimate and constitutional way out of this crisis.

    Also the pain for workers is real.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/01/10/now-craigslist-facebook-household-items-furloughed-workers-trying-make-ends-meet/?utm_term=.71162aea1520

    03x29di.png
  • CogCog Registered User regular
    edited January 11
    Solar wrote: »
    Can he even build the wall with emergency powers? It seems like the understanding is he can't, and surely Graham knows this?

    This is one of those things where the presumption is “no”... but we have never had a president who is both the required levels of infantile and fucking batshit insane for us to have to find out.

    Cog on
    TetraNitroCubanebowenBlackDragon480dispatch.ojdarksunYoutubeMan in the MistsshrykeCommunistCowFencingsaxL Ron HowardA Kobold's KoboldMatevArmorocKristmas KthulhuJaysonFourGennenalyse Ruebenemp123
  • CogCog Registered User regular
    edited January 11
    klemming wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    Can he even build the wall with emergency powers? It seems like the understanding is he can't, and surely Graham knows this?

    Could he be hoping that he'll declare it just so they can end the shutdown, then let the fallout come down squarely on Trump's head?


    I believe this is what the White House is seeing as the only way out where they save face. Declare an emergency, so you “get” your wall by fiat. Then the government can re-open because the wall is no longer an item of contention. Trump can claim credit for “solving” the shutdown crisis he created, tell his base he’s building the wall, and blame the ensuing legal challenges on the left.

    Truly we are all blessed by his magnanimity and reaping the benefits of his largesse.

    Cog on
    Gnome-Interruptus
  • Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud bear with us as we do some "rebranding" Registered User regular
    Declaring a state of emergency at the national level to build a wall is definitely what I would consider Tyranny with a capital T.

    durandal4532ArchAtomikabowenCogwazillaTetraNitroCubaneZonugalBlackDragon480RickRudebrynhrtmnMrVyngaardAthenorCelestialBadgerMidniteElvenshaenever diedispatch.oEmerlmaster999thatassemblyguyjoshofalltradesDuke 2.0DoodmannjdarksunSyphonBlueLord_AsmodeusBloodsheedAimNo-QuarterNiryaTomantajgeiskimeCantideMvrckVeagleHiroconMan in the MistsRozPreacherabotkinHefflingshrykeDouglasDangerIncenjucarautono-wally, erotibot300RedTideFencingsaxL Ron HowardboogedybooDoctorArchlonelyahavaLabelA Kobold's KoboldMatevArmorocEchoBucketmanTNTrooperKamarKristmas KthulhuJaysonFourSkeithStabbity StyleGennenalyse RuebenJazzElldrenTofystedethSquigieTransporteremp123
  • AtomikaAtomika Brought to you by Technicolor™ Registered User regular
    There’s a good way to be reminded of the Star Wars prequels?

    EmperorSethTetraNitroCubaneGnizmoMarathonDoctor DetroitSleepAridholElvenshaejdarksunLord_AsmodeusShadow DemonGimkimeMan in the MistsMegaMekHerrCronshrykeRedTideMoridin889L Ron HowardLeeksKayne Red Robe38thDoeA Kobold's KoboldMatevArmorocBucketmanTNTrooperToxKamarKristmas KthulhuJaysonFourStabbity StyleGennenalyse RuebenElldrenTofystedethTransporteremp123
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Graham said that yesterday too. And it is because he knows there is no other way to reopen the government outside of Congress overriding a veto which is the kiss of death for all of the Congressional Republicans. Though that is the legitimate and constitutional way out of this crisis.

    Also the pain for workers is real.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/01/10/now-craigslist-facebook-household-items-furloughed-workers-trying-make-ends-meet/?utm_term=.71162aea1520

    Good

    they've supported a lying scumbag maybe they do need to be destroyed poltically

    AtomikadavidsdurionsYoutubeBigJoeMMegaMekshrykeFencingsaxL Ron HowardMatevBucketmanToxKamarKristmas KthulhuStabbity StyleJazzElldrenSquigieemp123
  • CogCog Registered User regular
    If this can be declared an emergency what can't be declared an emergency

    lack of healthcare kills far more Americans than immigrants ever will. So in 2022 when president Warren decides to take military money to build hospitals that'd be ok right?

    Except you forget, His possible loss in 2020 was a national emergency.

    Hail Hydra.

    TetraNitroCubaneRickRudeMrVyngaardCantideMan in the MistsSmrtnikIncenjucarCommunistCowMoridin889L Ron HowardMatevBucketmanJaysonFourStabbity StyleJazz
  • GONG-00GONG-00 Registered User regular
    Could Army Corps of Engineer Officers refuse the order to build if they consider a declaration of a national emergency in this case to be an illegal act?

    Future Employee of Planetary Acquisitions, Inc.
    Pax Arcadia(PC) Division Agent
    xu257gunns6e.png

  • CogCog Registered User regular
    edited January 11
    GONG-00 wrote: »
    Could Army Corps of Engineer Officers refuse the order to build if they consider a declaration of a national emergency in this case to be an illegal act?

    I’m actually not sure we want to go down the road of military insubordination at this specific point, gross as the wall is.

    Cog on
  • RhahRhah Registered User regular
    If he is going to declare emergency and build 1/7th of the wall he really wants, then so be it. When the Dems are in the Presidency, they can declare emergency for climate change issues. I know one Republican was warning Trump not to do that for that very reason... can't wait for an emergency tax rate hike on the 1% to help combat climate change. The tears will be delicious.

    CogAtomikaRickRudebrynhrtmnGnome-Interruptusnever dieEmerlmaster999EmperorSethjdarksunLord_AsmodeusCantideMvrckHiroconMan in the MistsMegaMekKraintL Ron HowardMatevBucketmanToxKristmas KthulhuStabbity StyleJazzJoolanderemp123
  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    Declaring a state of emergency at the national level to build a wall is definitely what I would consider Tyranny with a capital T.
    It gets a bit too close to dystopian for my blood. That being said it is a power he was given by congress. I was against that when W had it because it was poorly written, and I am against it now. I don’t think that any president should be able to act like that on American soil.

    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudHirocon
  • CogCog Registered User regular
    edited January 11
    Rhah wrote: »
    If he is going to declare emergency and build 1/7th of the wall he really wants, then so be it. When the Dems are in the Presidency, they can declare emergency for climate change issues. I know one Republican was warning Trump not to do that for that very reason... can't wait for an emergency tax rate hike on the 1% to help combat climate change. The tears will be delicious.

    Yeah it’s a fucked up precedent to set.

    I mean, this whole administration is, but the national emergency thing in particular.

    Cog on
    RickRudeElvenshaeRhahOghulkCantideHiroconMan in the MistsMegaMekabotkinL Ron HowardMatevGennenalyse RuebenElldrenemp123
  • Snake GandhiSnake Gandhi Des Moines, IARegistered User regular
    Atomika wrote: »
    There’s a good way to be reminded of the Star Wars prequels?

    I maintain that there are dozens of entertaining minutes among those 3 movies.

    Hopefully we don’t reach the point where “ So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause.” becomes applicable.

    XBL: That Stone Dude
    Blizzard ID:StoneDudeman
    Doctor DetroitElvenshaedavidsdurionsPLAMegaMekForarL Ron HowardMatevemp123
  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    GONG-00 wrote: »
    Could Army Corps of Engineer Officers refuse the order to build if they consider a declaration of a national emergency in this case to be an illegal act?

    This is complex. The US military legal system is kind of confusing. But yes, it is illegal for any member of the US military to carry out an order that is deemed unlawful no matter who it is from. There is just a giant mess of court cases and laws around this.

    03x29di.png
    zepherinElvenshaePLAMan in the MistsFencingsaxMatevArmorocElldren
  • CogCog Registered User regular
    Atomika wrote: »
    There’s a good way to be reminded of the Star Wars prequels?

    I maintain that there are dozens of entertaining minutes among those 3 movies.

    Hopefully we don’t reach the point where “ So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause.” becomes applicable.

    So it’s treason then.

    MrVyngaardSleepApogeeYoutubeMegaMekWACriminalIncenjucarL Ron HowardMatevSpoitFoolOnTheHillJoolander
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    RickRude wrote: »
    I truly have no clue how and when this ends when I think about it. I don't see trump backing down just because of the press and visuals. The guy can't take a loss, and is going to do anything he can so that he can say he won. He's not going to accept nothing.

    It's going to fall on senate Republicans to pass the bill with a veto proof majority isn't it? Could you imagine if Obama would have held the government hostage over health care? They'd be screaming that we don't have a king/dictator. Yet these sleaze balls are endorsing the president taking the government hostage for a stupid fucking wall that Mexico was supposed to pay for.

    I'm glad in some ways I'm unemployed and not working for the DoD right now. I would be working and considered essential, doing nothing, and a lot more pissed off than I am now. And I'm probably already already already unhealthy rage level.

    DoD is fully appropriated so they're getting paychecks.

    Youtube
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    P10 wrote: »
    he also made it clear the muslim ban was a muslim ban but that got ruled constitutional, so I wouldn't place any faith in the courts

    After they re-wrote it three times when the Courts kept throwing it out. To make just enough of a fig leaf.

    ArbitraryDescriptorMan in the MistsshrykeFencingsaxMatevKristmas Kthulhu
  • RickRudeRickRude Registered User regular
    It's really looking like the GOP line is "This is a Crisis and we need to give the POTUS emergency powers immediately!" More people are coming out of the woodwork saying it's the only way to get around the Democrats.



    Lindsey Graham is a US Senator, and also a real piece of shit.

    This mother fucking piece of shit. This is why I can't stand people who vote republican with the mindset "my republican is different ". I've fallen for it in the past, and find myself thinking people like kaisich from Ohio are ok. But at the end of the day , they all to the party line and are responsible for the detteriation of democracy we are seeing today.

    Fuck them all.

    brynhrtmnMrVyngaardzepherinMidniteAtomikaBlackDragon480Elvenshaedispatch.oAlexandierTetraNitroCubaneEmerlmaster999Martini_PhilosopherJragghenDoodmannjdarksunSyphonBlueYoutubeLord_AsmodeusBigJoeMjmcdonaldNiryaCantideHiroconMan in the MistsDracomicronMegaMekAbsoluteZeroabotkinA Dabble Of TheloniusshrykeIncenjucarRedTideMomerathCommunistCowFencingsaxL Ron HowardDoctorArchlonelyahavaLabelA Kobold's KoboldJohnny ChopsockyMatevBucketmanTNTrooperToxKamarJaysonFourSkeithBarrakkethStabbity StyleArmorocGennenalyse RuebenJazzElldrenSquigieSirialisJoolanderemp123
  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    GONG-00 wrote: »
    Could Army Corps of Engineer Officers refuse the order to build if they consider a declaration of a national emergency in this case to be an illegal act?

    This is complex. The US military legal system is kind of confusing. But yes, it is illegal for any member of the US military to carry out an order that is deemed unlawful no matter who it is from. There is just a giant mess of court cases and laws around this.
    In the case of a wall it would likely be decided by a military tribunal and the burdens of proof would be on the defense to prove the order was unlawful, which is not easy, and likely not to be successful.

    A better strategy would be to throw up administrative road blocks one at a time.

    I can’t build this wall yet because we need an EIS performed in this area. *gets waver* I cant build this wall because we haven’t performed eminent domain yet on the service roads to get there *gets waver* I can’t build the wall because we haven’t done an EIS on the areas you just eminent domained for the service roads.

    I’ve seen govvys really be able to make a job out of dragging their heals.

    Gnome-InterruptusElvenshaeDuke 2.0PLAjmcdonaldMan in the MistsL Ron HowardTox
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    I really do hope that the question is pressed, hard, why if this is such an “emergency” we waited for three weeks of government shutdown to declare it.

    monikerMidniteElvenshaedavidsdurionsDuke 2.0never diejdarksunChiselphaneFawstLord_AsmodeusCantideVeagleHiroconMan in the MistsabotkinFencingsaxL Ron HowardMild ConfusionA Kobold's KoboldBucketmanKristmas KthulhuGennenalyse RuebenStabbity StyleJazzElldrenJoolanderemp123
  • CogCog Registered User regular
    What is more “not in good faith” than

    “Here’s some candy. Do we have a deal now? No? Bye bye!”

    zepherindurandal4532OghulkMegaMekFencingsaxL Ron HowardBucketman
  • RickRudeRickRude Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    I truly have no clue how and when this ends when I think about it. I don't see trump backing down just because of the press and visuals. The guy can't take a loss, and is going to do anything he can so that he can say he won. He's not going to accept nothing.

    It's going to fall on senate Republicans to pass the bill with a veto proof majority isn't it? Could you imagine if Obama would have held the government hostage over health care? They'd be screaming that we don't have a king/dictator. Yet these sleaze balls are endorsing the president taking the government hostage for a stupid fucking wall that Mexico was supposed to pay for.

    I'm glad in some ways I'm unemployed and not working for the DoD right now. I would be working and considered essential, doing nothing, and a lot more pissed off than I am now. And I'm probably already already already unhealthy rage level.

    DoD is fully appropriated so they're getting paychecks.

    I was a civilian employed by the DoD for the US Air force. A GS-11. This time may be different but I have a hard time believing everyone at the base I worked at has everyone working. I was always stuck there considered essintial, but there was no support working.

    Could he totally wrong though.

  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    RickRude wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    I truly have no clue how and when this ends when I think about it. I don't see trump backing down just because of the press and visuals. The guy can't take a loss, and is going to do anything he can so that he can say he won. He's not going to accept nothing.

    It's going to fall on senate Republicans to pass the bill with a veto proof majority isn't it? Could you imagine if Obama would have held the government hostage over health care? They'd be screaming that we don't have a king/dictator. Yet these sleaze balls are endorsing the president taking the government hostage for a stupid fucking wall that Mexico was supposed to pay for.

    I'm glad in some ways I'm unemployed and not working for the DoD right now. I would be working and considered essential, doing nothing, and a lot more pissed off than I am now. And I'm probably already already already unhealthy rage level.

    DoD is fully appropriated so they're getting paychecks.

    I was a civilian employed by the DoD for the US Air force. A GS-11. This time may be different but I have a hard time believing everyone at the base I worked at has everyone working. I was always stuck there considered essintial, but there was no support working.

    Could he totally wrong though.
    The budgets were passed at different time intel and DOD are fully funded and support personnel are working. And getting paid.
    DHS and coast guard for some reason are not.

    If you wanted to sneak over on a boat. Now is a good fucken time to do that.

    monikerElvenshaeDuke 2.0SmrtnikMoridin889FencingsaxKristmas KthulhuArmorocemp123
  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    GONG-00 wrote: »
    Could Army Corps of Engineer Officers refuse the order to build if they consider a declaration of a national emergency in this case to be an illegal act?
    If they were given the job, shit would snowball so fast.
    The wall/fence hasn't been designed, contractors have just built a couple of poorly-thought through prototypes. Any professional engineer would balk at what's already been done and emphasise just how much work would need to be done before anything got built. Costs would skyrocket, no matter how Trump tried to hide it.

    The entire concept probably wouldn't survive professional engineers being involved with it.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
    ElvenshaeFencingsaxKayne Red Robe
  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    klemming wrote: »
    GONG-00 wrote: »
    Could Army Corps of Engineer Officers refuse the order to build if they consider a declaration of a national emergency in this case to be an illegal act?
    If they were given the job, shit would snowball so fast.
    The wall/fence hasn't been designed, contractors have just built a couple of poorly-thought through prototypes. Any professional engineer would balk at what's already been done and emphasise just how much work would need to be done before anything got built. Costs would skyrocket, no matter how Trump tried to hide it.

    The entire concept probably wouldn't survive professional engineers being involved with it.
    I mean they’d bid it as a design build,

    But think of the protests. Every construction company that could bond it would bid on the wall, and all of the losers would protest. It would be a FAR shit show of epic proportions.

    ElvenshaemcdermottFencingsax
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    RickRude wrote: »
    It's really looking like the GOP line is "This is a Crisis and we need to give the POTUS emergency powers immediately!" More people are coming out of the woodwork saying it's the only way to get around the Democrats.



    Lindsey Graham is a US Senator, and also a real piece of shit.

    This mother fucking piece of shit. This is why I can't stand people who vote republican with the mindset "my republican is different ". I've fallen for it in the past, and find myself thinking people like kaisich from Ohio are ok. But at the end of the day , they all to the party line and are responsible for the detteriation of democracy we are seeing today.

    Fuck them all.

    Unfortunately, local politics will always trump national politics for an overwhelming number of Americans. This is true of plenty of Dems too. It's just human nature, I guess, to care about what's closest to you rather than the intangible ideals of a country.

    It's why lazy propaganda that plays on biases works so well "Soandso is trying to do this to our country!" Because Americans are largely lazy, too, and don't want to think and here's a voice providing them an out - an escape from thinking for themselves. So people concern themselves on what's going on in their city, because that's where they have to exist, and they concern themselves with their state, because (for most states) it has a direct impact on net worth, and they don't concern themselves with their nation because they are selfish, lazy, and just don't give a fuck because they don't even want to contemplate anything on that scale.

    zepherin
  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist Registered User regular
    klemming wrote: »
    GONG-00 wrote: »
    Could Army Corps of Engineer Officers refuse the order to build if they consider a declaration of a national emergency in this case to be an illegal act?
    If they were given the job, shit would snowball so fast.
    The wall/fence hasn't been designed, contractors have just built a couple of poorly-thought through prototypes. Any professional engineer would balk at what's already been done and emphasise just how much work would need to be done before anything got built. Costs would skyrocket, no matter how Trump tried to hide it.

    The entire concept probably wouldn't survive professional engineers being involved with it.

    Which means they won't be. Instead, it will be a giant amount of graft, likely stealing money from worthwhile government functions.

    Sadly, I can feel this coming once Trump sets his new record. And not enough people who control the levers of power are going to question it.

    Meanwhile I get to hear stories around here about how the true Trump emergency, the tariffs and trade wars, are causing local farmers to be in extreme pain because they can't get the subsidies Trump promised them to keep their support while their livelihoods crumbled around them.

    This is like a fault line. More and more pressure is building up, and when it finally breaks the quakes are going to be huge.

    Official member of the Grilling Gentry
    "Brevity is the soul of getting your shit read." - Tube
    Rarely-updated Collecting blog
    He/Him
    zepherinCantideMan in the MistsIncenjucarFencingsax
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    It's really looking like the GOP line is "This is a Crisis and we need to give the POTUS emergency powers immediately!" More people are coming out of the woodwork saying it's the only way to get around the Democrats.



    Lindsey Graham is a US Senator, and also a real piece of shit.
    This is beginning to remind my of the Star Wars prequels, and not in a good way.

    Don't rewatch Babylon 5 anytime soon.

    The jaw dropping thing about our darkest timeline compared to the various fascist dystopian setups out there (B5, SW:1-3, 1984) is just how half-assedly this lurch towards full on dictatorship is.
    1984 and the Prequels had large wars that existed as actual real threats to the political entities. Trump just makes up random word salad about furriners driving fast cars in caravans towards the border in order to get their murder on.
    B5 and the Prequels had the bad guys spend years building political support for when they eventually play the Martial Law/State of Emergency card. Trump gets asked if he's going to do it, tweets threats for a week, and suddenly has enablers telling him it's the only solution.
    1984 famously had the Ministry of Truth, an organization of thousands of people dedicated to rewriting history on a daily basis in order to ensure that Big Brother is never wrong. Trump just makes shit up and nobody cares. And it's not even gaslighting, which is a peeve of mine since that term comes from a play where there's a minimum number of characters and independent verification of the lighting levels is impossible. This is just Trump lying (bullshitting, technically) and nobody caring because they'd rather believe Trump than disbelieve the lies.

    I, and imagine most of us on the forum, probably thought that the US was relatively protected from becoming a dictatorship because doing so would be difficult. You'd need the armed forces, you'd need a large amount of popular support, you'd need to do some hard work to pull it off. The reality I'm seeing right now is that it's actually really easy to go full-dictator. You just do it and see if anyone steps up to stop you. The right-wing won't, because they support the general policy goals and the mushy middle mostly just can't believe what they're seeing.

    The fragility of democracy is depressing to behold.

    GreenBhowTetraNitroCubaneBlackDragon480electricitylikesmebrynhrtmnCogDrezZonugalPLACantideHiroconMan in the MistsabotkinSmrtnikForarFencingsaxL Ron HowardboogedyboowobblyheadedbobChomp-Chomp38thDoeA Kobold's KoboldMatevKristmas KthulhuJaysonFourElldrenJazzJoolanderemp123
  • Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    edited January 11


    I'd think that, you know, a political party being controlled by a hostile foreign power and appointing supreme court justices would ALSO constitute a national emergency.

    Edith_Bagot-Dix on


    Also on Steam and PSN: twobadcats
    TetraNitroCubanedestroyah87BlackDragon480dispatch.odavidsdurionszepherinthatassemblyguybowenMrVyngaardjdarksunSyphonBlueLord_AsmodeusmonikerGnome-InterruptusbrynhrtmnNo-QuarterBullheadCogjgeisjmcdonaldZonugalCantideMvrckHiroconMan in the MistsMegaMekPreacherabotkinForarshrykeIncenjucarautono-wally, erotibot300CommunistCowMoridin889FencingsaxL Ron HowardBandableKoopahTroopahboogedybooVeaglelonelyahava38thDoeLabelA Kobold's KoboldMatevBucketmanKamarKristmas KthulhuJaysonFourSkeithArmorocGennenalyse RuebenStabbity StyleElldrenJazzSpoitSquigieTransporterJoolanderemp123
  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    It's really looking like the GOP line is "This is a Crisis and we need to give the POTUS emergency powers immediately!" More people are coming out of the woodwork saying it's the only way to get around the Democrats.



    Lindsey Graham is a US Senator, and also a real piece of shit.
    This is beginning to remind my of the Star Wars prequels, and not in a good way.

    Don't rewatch Babylon 5 anytime soon.

    The jaw dropping thing about our darkest timeline compared to the various fascist dystopian setups out there (B5, SW:1-3, 1984) is just how half-assedly this lurch towards full on dictatorship is.
    1984 and the Prequels had large wars that existed as actual real threats to the political entities. Trump just makes up random word salad about furriners driving fast cars in caravans towards the border in order to get their murder on.
    B5 and the Prequels had the bad guys spend years building political support for when they eventually play the Martial Law/State of Emergency card. Trump gets asked if he's going to do it, tweets threats for a week, and suddenly has enablers telling him it's the only solution.
    1984 famously had the Ministry of Truth, an organization of thousands of people dedicated to rewriting history on a daily basis in order to ensure that Big Brother is never wrong. Trump just makes shit up and nobody cares. And it's not even gaslighting, which is a peeve of mine since that term comes from a play where there's a minimum number of characters and independent verification of the lighting levels is impossible. This is just Trump lying (bullshitting, technically) and nobody caring because they'd rather believe Trump than disbelieve the lies.

    I, and imagine most of us on the forum, probably thought that the US was relatively protected from becoming a dictatorship because doing so would be difficult. You'd need the armed forces, you'd need a large amount of popular support, you'd need to do some hard work to pull it off. The reality I'm seeing right now is that it's actually really easy to go full-dictator. You just do it and see if anyone steps up to stop you. The right-wing won't, because they support the general policy goals and the mushy middle mostly just can't believe what they're seeing.

    The fragility of democracy is depressing to behold.

    I mean in the past we’ve always seen authoritarian governments that were succesfully established have a reasonably capable if sociopathic dictator or governing clique. Caesar and Augustus, the early Tokugawa shogunate and imperial Japanese dictatorship, Lenin and Stalin, Napoleon, Cromwell, even Putin and Erdogan - these guys were at least competently evil.

    The biggest examples of a bunch of incompetent idiots gaining power always come from the far right - Hitler and the Nazis, Mousillini and the Fascists really come to mind. I think the far right populism removes a lot of the competency filter from grabbing power for some reason. I guess Robeispeire and the French revolution guys were pretty incompetent but they had a lot of the same violently populist themes just directed against the aristocracy instead of outsiders.

  • GONG-00GONG-00 Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    It's really looking like the GOP line is "This is a Crisis and we need to give the POTUS emergency powers immediately!" More people are coming out of the woodwork saying it's the only way to get around the Democrats.



    Lindsey Graham is a US Senator, and also a real piece of shit.
    This is beginning to remind my of the Star Wars prequels, and not in a good way.

    Don't rewatch Babylon 5 anytime soon.

    The jaw dropping thing about our darkest timeline compared to the various fascist dystopian setups out there (B5, SW:1-3, 1984) is just how half-assedly this lurch towards full on dictatorship is.
    1984 and the Prequels had large wars that existed as actual real threats to the political entities. Trump just makes up random word salad about furriners driving fast cars in caravans towards the border in order to get their murder on.
    B5 and the Prequels had the bad guys spend years building political support for when they eventually play the Martial Law/State of Emergency card. Trump gets asked if he's going to do it, tweets threats for a week, and suddenly has enablers telling him it's the only solution.
    1984 famously had the Ministry of Truth, an organization of thousands of people dedicated to rewriting history on a daily basis in order to ensure that Big Brother is never wrong. Trump just makes shit up and nobody cares. And it's not even gaslighting, which is a peeve of mine since that term comes from a play where there's a minimum number of characters and independent verification of the lighting levels is impossible. This is just Trump lying (bullshitting, technically) and nobody caring because they'd rather believe Trump than disbelieve the lies.

    I, and imagine most of us on the forum, probably thought that the US was relatively protected from becoming a dictatorship because doing so would be difficult. You'd need the armed forces, you'd need a large amount of popular support, you'd need to do some hard work to pull it off. The reality I'm seeing right now is that it's actually really easy to go full-dictator. You just do it and see if anyone steps up to stop you. The right-wing won't, because they support the general policy goals and the mushy middle mostly just can't believe what they're seeing.

    The fragility of democracy is depressing to behold.

    It's as if there is a very tangible benefit in taking refugees from regions that suffer under oppressive governments. Perhaps we need to be constantly reminded of what we take for granted before we willingly throw it away.

    Future Employee of Planetary Acquisitions, Inc.
    Pax Arcadia(PC) Division Agent
    xu257gunns6e.png

    Martini_PhilosopherBigJoeM
  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    Do we have any engineers that could weigh in the logistics of actually building this thing in terms of time, resources, or even manpower? What would this even look like?

    I am in the business of saving lives.
  • wazillawazilla Registered User regular
    zepherin wrote: »
    klemming wrote: »
    GONG-00 wrote: »
    Could Army Corps of Engineer Officers refuse the order to build if they consider a declaration of a national emergency in this case to be an illegal act?
    If they were given the job, shit would snowball so fast.
    The wall/fence hasn't been designed, contractors have just built a couple of poorly-thought through prototypes. Any professional engineer would balk at what's already been done and emphasise just how much work would need to be done before anything got built. Costs would skyrocket, no matter how Trump tried to hide it.

    The entire concept probably wouldn't survive professional engineers being involved with it.
    I mean they’d bid it as a design build,

    But think of the protests. Every construction company that could bond it would bid on the wall, and all of the losers would protest. It would be a FAR shit show of epic proportions.

    After like a month of the bid process and Trump going "where's my wall" he pulls the project and goes no-bid to someone he or kushner knows or owes money to

    Psn:wazukki
    PellaeonBlackDragon480ElvenshaeSmrtnikIncenjucarFencingsaxMatev
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    It's really looking like the GOP line is "This is a Crisis and we need to give the POTUS emergency powers immediately!" More people are coming out of the woodwork saying it's the only way to get around the Democrats.



    Lindsey Graham is a US Senator, and also a real piece of shit.
    This is beginning to remind my of the Star Wars prequels, and not in a good way.

    Don't rewatch Babylon 5 anytime soon.

    The jaw dropping thing about our darkest timeline compared to the various fascist dystopian setups out there (B5, SW:1-3, 1984) is just how half-assedly this lurch towards full on dictatorship is.
    1984 and the Prequels had large wars that existed as actual real threats to the political entities. Trump just makes up random word salad about furriners driving fast cars in caravans towards the border in order to get their murder on.
    B5 and the Prequels had the bad guys spend years building political support for when they eventually play the Martial Law/State of Emergency card. Trump gets asked if he's going to do it, tweets threats for a week, and suddenly has enablers telling him it's the only solution.
    1984 famously had the Ministry of Truth, an organization of thousands of people dedicated to rewriting history on a daily basis in order to ensure that Big Brother is never wrong. Trump just makes shit up and nobody cares. And it's not even gaslighting, which is a peeve of mine since that term comes from a play where there's a minimum number of characters and independent verification of the lighting levels is impossible. This is just Trump lying (bullshitting, technically) and nobody caring because they'd rather believe Trump than disbelieve the lies.

    I, and imagine most of us on the forum, probably thought that the US was relatively protected from becoming a dictatorship because doing so would be difficult. You'd need the armed forces, you'd need a large amount of popular support, you'd need to do some hard work to pull it off. The reality I'm seeing right now is that it's actually really easy to go full-dictator. You just do it and see if anyone steps up to stop you. The right-wing won't, because they support the general policy goals and the mushy middle mostly just can't believe what they're seeing.

    The fragility of democracy is depressing to behold.

    If anything, dystopian writers underestimated the ability of people to be willfully ignorant. Which is saying something.

    If Trump gets to ignore congressional approval to get his wall, who's to say if he just decides he's the president forever now because Democrats are fundamentally illegitimate and we have a national emergency due to 2/3 of the country affiliating with them? I really don't think this is chicken littling. This is the part where Congress gets to decide if the President is a dictator and they are toothless or not, and apparently they (Republicans) have opted for toothlessness.

    If he ends up declaring a national emergency I'd better see some protests on a scale we've never seen before.

    ジェイムズ・ブラウンの好きな色は何ですか?
    青!
    XaquinmRahmanizepherinYoutubemonikerbrynhrtmnOghulkZonugalCantideMrVyngaardMan in the MistsBurnageSmrtnikIncenjucarRaiden333FencingsaxL Ron HowardboogedybooA Kobold's KoboldMatevBucketmanKristmas KthulhuJaysonFourStabbity StyleElldrenJazzemp123
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    If he ends up declaring a national emergency I'd better see some protests on a scale we've never seen before.

    Which will, of course, be the next emergency.

    steam_sig.png
    Steam, Warframe: Megajoule
    zepherinjkylefultonTetraNitroCubaneBrodyXaquinbrynhrtmnZonugalCantideMrVyngaardMan in the MistsElvenshaeSmrtnikIncenjucarautono-wally, erotibot300Moridin889Raiden333FencingsaxL Ron HowardKetBralonelyahavaA Kobold's KoboldMatevBucketmanJaysonFourSkeithGennenalyse RuebenStabbity StyleElldrenJazzemp123
  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    Do we have any engineers that could weigh in the logistics of actually building this thing in terms of time, resources, or even manpower? What would this even look like?

    The most I've found on it is this twitter thread from a court-accepted expert on walls.
    She's not complimentary about the endeavour.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
    FawstBlackDragon480ForarMatevBucketman
  • Martini_PhilosopherMartini_Philosopher Registered User regular
    If any of you were wondering why Trump is so blessedly, stupidly, condescendingly confident that Mexico is going to pay, The Daily Beast found an old memo that has a surprising amount of detail as to how they were going to pull it off.
    The scheme entailed a three-day diplomatic high-wire act touching on creative interpretations of national security legislation, international finance, and the finer art of ransom, all meant to take place during Trump’s first three days in office.

    First, Trump would issue a threat to change a rule under the USA PATRIOT Act to halt money transfers from undocumented Mexican nationals inside the United States back to Mexico. That money, known as remittances, amounts to roughly $25 billion annually and makes up nearly 3 percent of Mexico’s gross domestic product, according to the World Bank.

    Just in case you may have thought this sounds like a mafia shakedown scheme, let me assure you that steps two and three are, in fact, right out of a mafia shakedown scheme.
    Upon issuing the threat, Trump would then respond to a (presumably panicking) Mexican government with a promise not to enact the proposed rule change—“if the Mexican government will contribute the funds needed to the United States to pay for the wall.”

    “We have the moral high ground here, and all the leverage,” Trump concluded. “It is time we use it in order to Make America Great Again.”

    In conclusion, Trump probably still feels like this is what should be happening, doesn't understand anything, and we have a spineless GOP to thank for this roller coaster ride straight into the bowels of fascism.

    All opinions are my own and in no way reflect that of my employer.
    shrykeKristmas KthulhuSiska
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Nowhe's saying he never intended Mexico to pay and how dare you imply he said so

    zepherinYoutubemonikerGnome-InterruptusBlackDragon480HiroconMan in the MistsElvenshaeMoridin889FencingsaxMild ConfusionA Kobold's KoboldMatevBucketmanKristmas KthulhuJaysonFourGennenalyse RuebenElldrenRickRudeemp123
  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    The only bright side to the distopian Trump, is that Trump is really old. 72, he’ll be 74 by the next election. Actuary tables are favorable, and Pence is so unpopular as to be ridiculous.

  • Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    It's really looking like the GOP line is "This is a Crisis and we need to give the POTUS emergency powers immediately!" More people are coming out of the woodwork saying it's the only way to get around the Democrats.



    Lindsey Graham is a US Senator, and also a real piece of shit.
    This is beginning to remind my of the Star Wars prequels, and not in a good way.

    Don't rewatch Babylon 5 anytime soon.

    The jaw dropping thing about our darkest timeline compared to the various fascist dystopian setups out there (B5, SW:1-3, 1984) is just how half-assedly this lurch towards full on dictatorship is.
    1984 and the Prequels had large wars that existed as actual real threats to the political entities. Trump just makes up random word salad about furriners driving fast cars in caravans towards the border in order to get their murder on.
    B5 and the Prequels had the bad guys spend years building political support for when they eventually play the Martial Law/State of Emergency card. Trump gets asked if he's going to do it, tweets threats for a week, and suddenly has enablers telling him it's the only solution.
    1984 famously had the Ministry of Truth, an organization of thousands of people dedicated to rewriting history on a daily basis in order to ensure that Big Brother is never wrong. Trump just makes shit up and nobody cares. And it's not even gaslighting, which is a peeve of mine since that term comes from a play where there's a minimum number of characters and independent verification of the lighting levels is impossible. This is just Trump lying (bullshitting, technically) and nobody caring because they'd rather believe Trump than disbelieve the lies.

    I, and imagine most of us on the forum, probably thought that the US was relatively protected from becoming a dictatorship because doing so would be difficult. You'd need the armed forces, you'd need a large amount of popular support, you'd need to do some hard work to pull it off. The reality I'm seeing right now is that it's actually really easy to go full-dictator. You just do it and see if anyone steps up to stop you. The right-wing won't, because they support the general policy goals and the mushy middle mostly just can't believe what they're seeing.

    The fragility of democracy is depressing to behold.

    If anything, dystopian writers underestimated the ability of people to be willfully ignorant. Which is saying something.

    If Trump gets to ignore congressional approval to get his wall, who's to say if he just decides he's the president forever now because Democrats are fundamentally illegitimate and we have a national emergency due to 2/3 of the country affiliating with them? I really don't think this is chicken littling. This is the part where Congress gets to decide if the President is a dictator and they are toothless or not, and apparently they (Republicans) have opted for toothlessness.

    If he ends up declaring a national emergency I'd better see some protests on a scale we've never seen before.

    This is the issue. The general trend in Washington, going back decades, is that the previously unthinkable just gets normalized. Pretty much everyone here has seen this within our lifetime; what was excessive in Bush's first term was just the norm by the Obama era. What was hyper-partisan in the Obama era is just business as usual now. McConnell has now established that the Senate Majority leader can just hold the legislative process hostage, so that will be normal going forward. What Trump is effectively demanding is that the House must pass the President's budget or it's a national emergency, which effectively moves the chief responsibility of the legislative branch over to the executive.



    Also on Steam and PSN: twobadcats
    SleepThawmusMorganVMartini_PhilosopherYoutubedispatch.omonikerCantideMrVyngaardMan in the MistsElvenshaeIncenjucarshrykeFencingsaxForarL Ron HowardCommander ZoomLabelA Kobold's KoboldMatevToxKamarKristmas KthulhuStabbity StyleElldrenJazzemp123
This discussion has been closed.