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US Government Shutdown 2018/2019 - read mod post on pg 23

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Posts

  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    White House economic adviser appears to compare shutdown to 'vacation' for furloughed workers

    But what about those working without pay? Or the contractors who won't get paid? Great vacation there, Kevin.

    You're sounding like a real goddamn 18th century french aristocrat there KEVIN.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Oh man I love a vacation during which I'm not being paid, bills are adding up and its still in the air if I'll ever return to work. Its the best kevin!

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
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  • Martini_PhilosopherMartini_Philosopher Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    WaPo is at it again, with the best hot takes since they learned nothing since last time:



    Ethan Brown is the lead editor of The Appeal.

    Like, Christ, what they are supposed to do? Let people starve?

    Yeah how dare those people get food and medical care while they are wards of the state? Like jesus I know they are prisoners but they are fucking human beings too?

    Two words for you, friend. Prosperity Gospel. If god wanted them to be good people, he'd given them all the money they needed for lawyers to keep them out of prison.

    All opinions are my own and in no way reflect that of my employer.
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  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Oh man I love a vacation during which I'm not being paid, bills are adding up and its still in the air if I'll ever return to work. Its the best kevin!

    Nothing takes the edge off of stress like financial insecurity.

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  • That_GuyThat_Guy I don't wanna be that guy Registered User regular
    21 days into this shitshow and there's no end in sight. You gotta wonder how motivated the secret service is at this point.

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  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist Registered User regular
    That_Guy wrote: »
    21 days into this shitshow and there's no end in sight. You gotta wonder how motivated the secret service is at this point.

    I hope very motivated. Currency fraud is a huge thing that could happen with weakened oversight. (and no I'm not joking)

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  • I ZimbraI Zimbra Registered User regular


    CBS reporter.

    I'm guess someone told him what a disaster declaring an emergency would be, so he'll probably announce one by tweet at 5am tomorrow.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited January 11
    Marathon wrote: »
    Ilpala wrote: »
    Huh...I'm actually kind of sympathetic to the argument he's making there.

    He does have a point that a move like this will likely make shutdowns more common.

    But it’s not the employees who should be punished if the government shuts down.

    If the government cannot pass a budget, there should be an immediate election, for legislative and executive branch

    Everyone should be up for election too

    I feel like that's ripe for backfiring. Wait until poll numbers for the opposing party are unfavorable and then hold up government until special elections occur.

    The reason this functions in parliamentary democracies is because they are basically unicameral for all intents and purposes and there's no filibuster so everything passes with a majority. This creates a direct link between having a majority and being able to pass a budget as long as your party/coallition isn't turning on you, which prevents this kind of fuckery.

    The US's clownshoes freakshow of a governmental structure has so many failure points it's difficult to structure a rule to effectively dissolve a government for not functioning on a basic level.

    It's probably better to just reverse the silly interpretation that suggests that without a budget nothing gets paid for and instead just go with "No budget, same funding as last time".


    PS - Also people hate elections, so forcing a government to fall in a parliamentary system is not something you do quickly or just for kicks.

    shryke on
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  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    That_Guy wrote: »
    21 days into this shitshow and there's no end in sight. You gotta wonder how motivated the secret service is at this point.

    There’s only one way to find out, and let’s hope we don’t...

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    You know, it's been 3 weeks now, and I gotta say how amazing this whole thing is. Like, the senate was completely fine with this right up until threw a bitch fit, refusing to accept that he wasn't going to get his wall and loudly proclaiming that he'd be happy to own the shut down. Then Paul Ryan ~when the right course of action was eminently clear and he had nothing to lose by simply holding a vote and forcing trump to capitulate or veto~ refused to hold the vote so as to not put president crybaby pee pants in a situation where he'd have to stand alone. Followed by weeks of people being forced to do their jobs without pay while mitch mcconel turtles away in the senate so that he doesn't have to be caught offside by the president.

    Like, we are looking at an existensial crisis that will fuck up the federal government for decades brought on by a god damn vanity project that no one in the preident's party has the balls to say "fuck off already, you lost on this and it ain't happening".

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    I Zimbra wrote: »


    CBS reporter.

    I'm guess someone told him what a disaster declaring an emergency would be, so he'll probably announce one by tweet at 5am tomorrow.

    The idea is in his head so now we are just waiting for his tantrum to boil over. Gonna need to wait for the next set of bad polls for him or bad economic news or a segment on Fox and Friends calling him a failure for not getting a Wall.

    I ZimbraYoutubedurandal4532
  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    WaPo is at it again, with the best hot takes since they learned nothing since last time:



    Ethan Brown is the lead editor of The Appeal.

    Like, Christ, what they are supposed to do? Let people starve?

    Yeah how dare those people get food and medical care while they are wards of the state? Like jesus I know they are prisoners but they are fucking human beings too?

    Two words for you, friend. Prosperity Gospel
    . If god wanted them to be good people, he'd given them all the money they needed for lawyers to keep them out of prison.

    Mike Pence, y'all

    Seriously

    I play games on ps3 and ps4. My PSN is DouglasDanger.
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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    That_Guy wrote: »
    21 days into this shitshow and there's no end in sight. You gotta wonder how motivated the secret service is at this point.

    I think they have to prove they are financially stable, so they aren't vulnerable to bribes, so presumably they have at least a little savings.

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    I Zimbra wrote: »


    CBS reporter.

    I'm guess someone told him what a disaster declaring an emergency would be, so he'll probably announce one by tweet at 5am tomorrow.

    omfg the whole point of emergency declaraion is it's supposed to be for things you couldn't have reasonably prepared for you stupid fuck.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
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  • BucketmanBucketman Call me SkraggRegistered User regular
    In the last thread someone floated the idea that Trump is waiting until 22 days in to call the emergency so that if the Dems reopen the government he gets to have had the longest shutdown in US history.

  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Now he wants comprehensive immigration reform?

  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Now he wants comprehensive immigration reform?

    They always have, unfortunately the immigration reform they want is "there's no more immigration"

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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    White House economic adviser appears to compare shutdown to 'vacation' for furloughed workers

    But what about those working without pay? Or the contractors who won't get paid? Great vacation there, Kevin.

    During paid vacation, your paychecks still arrive. You still have to pay bills and shit. And, you know, you probably want to spend some of it having fun with your family, because it's vacation.


    You can't buy groceries with vague promises of backpay.

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  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    Now he wants comprehensive immigration reform?

    They always have, unfortunately the immigration reform they want is "there's no more immigration"

    Now now, the president has made it very clear he's open to people emigrating from Norway.

    Though why someone would want to emigrate from a country that has such a high standard of living it makes the US look like Guatemala I will never know.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
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  • A Dabble Of TheloniusA Dabble Of Thelonius It has been a doozy of a dayRegistered User regular
    Generally speaking, from a law enforcement perspective, when you attempt to procure goods using the promise of future pay...

    Well, we generally call that theft.

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  • I ZimbraI Zimbra Registered User regular
    Generally speaking, from a law enforcement perspective, when you attempt to procure goods using the promise of future pay...

    Well, we generally call that theft.

    Man, I bet payday loan places are doing gangbusters business during the shutdown.

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Hevach wrote: »
    Heffling wrote: »
    Taximes wrote: »
    From the previous thread, the Freedom Caucus is urging Trump to avoid the Emergency Powers route, probably because they're all imagining a world where a Democrat does the same thing.
    Politico wrote:
    Multiple Republicans in the conservative group have privately raised their concerns with the Trump administration, fearing it would lead to a years-long legal standoff that Democrats could win while setting a dangerous precedent for the presidency, according to more than a dozen lawmakers and GOP aides. They want Trump to hold out for a deal with Democrats, regardless of how long the partial government shutdown drags on.

    Also, according to Freedom Caucus member Justin Amash, the back pay bill that just passed is not just for this shut down, but a rules change for any and all future shutdowns.


    Justin Amash is a House Rep, member of the Freedom Caucus, and just voted that federal employees should totally not get paychecks whenever the President throws a temper tantrum.

    I mean, we can make it so that Government Shutdowns don't happen and this sort of hostage-taking showmanship can't be attempted again

    Can you do that outside of a Constitutional amendment?

    Yes...ish.

    Congress sets the budget or doesn't causing a funding gap. Congress passed the law that causes shutdowns to happen during a funding gap.

    Congress can change what happens when a budget isn't passed so gaps don't happen (such as continuing previous budget), or how funding gaps impact operation (such as returning to the Carter-era handling where operations continue while departments have money on hand so shutdowns aren't all at once)

    The -ish comes in because a future Congress can say bother that noise and undo it and plunge us into another shutdown anyway.

    I think they could structure the law in such a way to discourage that, though. Currently, inaction leads to a shutdown, so everyone can just say, "Oh, I don't want a shutdown, but what can we doooooo" and then sit on their hands and a shutdown occurs.

    If there was a law that said that, in the event of inaction, government keeps trucking along at current funding levels (or whatever), a shutdown would still be possible, but only if Congress specifically passed a bill to shut the government down and the president signed it. Which is exceptionally unlikely to ever occur.

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  • R-demR-dem Registered User regular
    I know I'm kinda preaching to the choir here, but, like, I just want to reiterate that a huge concrete or steel wall is such an outdated and useless contraption that it's not even funny. If you were honestly serious about having the Corps put in a "wall", what we'd do is put in a combination cyclone and concertina razorwire barrier with the objective of slowing down an intruder long enough for the drones, cameras, observation posts, and/or foot patrols to log them and track them for apprehension. It does MORE to use this system for a lot less money. The only objective it doesn't accomplish is be a big giant useless monument to an old white racist though, so here we are!

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    I'm kinda worried here, because I don't see a viable exit anymore. Mitch McConnell will not cave, because he's scared of being primaried. Trump will not cave, because he doesn't care about anything but winning his toy.

    Dems shouldn't cave, because it just means this will keep happening every time Trump wants something, but this puts them in the position of being the guy in the action movie whose wife is being tortured until he gives up the launch codes that let the terrorists nuke the eastern seaboard, and that guy always frickin caves.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    It's going to end up being about public pressure.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
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  • HiroconHirocon Registered User regular
    The viable exit is Trump gets voted out of office in 2020. Hopefully.

  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    At what point does the shutdown cause the actual immigration crisis he pretends is happening ?

    Isn't most illegal immigration thru seaports and airports? And aren't those currently struggling to work properly in the shutdown?

    And would there be anyway to communicate this info to his base?

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  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    Hirocon wrote: »
    The viable exit is Trump gets voted out of office in 2020. Hopefully.

    Even betting that Trump loses reelection, that's over a year away. This is getting solved way before that. And yes, likely with the Dems caving before the second missed paycheck.

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    What would that public pressure look like? An increasing majority blames Trump for the wall, and he doesn't care. Most MAGA types support the shutdown because they either don't think it affects them, or don't care because it hurts the right people. Hannity will keep telling Trump that capitulating is weak.

    Like, which public is going to put pressure on who to make this stop?

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  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I'm kinda worried here, because I don't see a viable exit anymore. Mitch McConnell will not cave, because he's scared of being primaried. Trump will not cave, because he doesn't care about anything but winning his toy.

    Dems shouldn't cave, because it just means this will keep happening every time Trump wants something, but this puts them in the position of being the guy in the action movie whose wife is being tortured until he gives up the launch codes that let the terrorists nuke the eastern seaboard, and that guy always frickin caves.

    Yes you've correctly identified the position we're in.

    The thing a bunch of people seem to forget is that given the choice the other side would rather just not have a federal government. For them having all the employees quit and find private sector jobs leaving all governmental departments crippled is a net good. It is in fact a desirable outcome. It's why they have no problem taking the hostage, because not only do they not mind shooting the hostage, they really want to shoot the hostage.

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  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I'm kinda worried here, because I don't see a viable exit anymore. Mitch McConnell will not cave, because he's scared of being primaried. Trump will not cave, because he doesn't care about anything but winning his toy.

    Dems shouldn't cave, because it just means this will keep happening every time Trump wants something, but this puts them in the position of being the guy in the action movie whose wife is being tortured until he gives up the launch codes that let the terrorists nuke the eastern seaboard, and that guy always frickin caves.

    There is another option here; strictly speaking mitch is only a problem if he's speaker of the house. If the republican senators were to oust him then they could replace him with someone who is in a safe seat and then force trump to either veto or capitulate with the knowledge that they would back the dems in overturning the veto.

    Because the polls are getting worse all the time for trump and these guys actually have to consider their political future (unlike trump who is frikkin' done in 2020).

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
    A Kobold's Kobold
  • kaidkaid Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I'm kinda worried here, because I don't see a viable exit anymore. Mitch McConnell will not cave, because he's scared of being primaried. Trump will not cave, because he doesn't care about anything but winning his toy.

    Dems shouldn't cave, because it just means this will keep happening every time Trump wants something, but this puts them in the position of being the guy in the action movie whose wife is being tortured until he gives up the launch codes that let the terrorists nuke the eastern seaboard, and that guy always frickin caves.

    I think it ends when major airports shut down as the workers either walk off or quit in disgust. The cascade of bad press that would happen when the countries air network gets paralyzed should hopefully spark some motion.

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  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    What would that public pressure look like? An increasing majority blames Trump for the wall, and he doesn't care. Most MAGA types support the shutdown because they either don't think it affects them, or don't care because it hurts the right people. Hannity will keep telling Trump that capitulating is weak.

    Like, which public is going to put pressure on who to make this stop?
    I think some people are going to cave and start yelling at the Dems, "UGH JUST GIVE HIM THE FUCKING WALL MONEY ALREADY."

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
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  • RozRoz Boss of InternetRegistered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    What would that public pressure look like? An increasing majority blames Trump for the wall, and he doesn't care. Most MAGA types support the shutdown because they either don't think it affects them, or don't care because it hurts the right people. Hannity will keep telling Trump that capitulating is weak.

    Like, which public is going to put pressure on who to make this stop?

    We're not allowed to talk about it here.

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    You know, it's been 3 weeks now, and I gotta say how amazing this whole thing is. Like, the senate was completely fine with this right up until threw a bitch fit, refusing to accept that he wasn't going to get his wall and loudly proclaiming that he'd be happy to own the shut down. Then Paul Ryan ~when the right course of action was eminently clear and he had nothing to lose by simply holding a vote and forcing trump to capitulate or veto~ refused to hold the vote so as to not put president crybaby pee pants in a situation where he'd have to stand alone. Followed by weeks of people being forced to do their jobs without pay while mitch mcconel turtles away in the senate so that he doesn't have to be caught offside by the president.

    Like, we are looking at an existensial crisis that will fuck up the federal government for decades brought on by a god damn vanity project that no one in the preident's party has the balls to say "fuck off already, you lost on this and it ain't happening".

    After spending 2 years in total control of the Government and not bothering with it. Republicans could have put $Texas in their previous Reconciliation budget bills and Democrats wouldn't have been able to do anything about it. But they didn't. Now, suddenly, when they're out of power in the House it's worth rampant deprivation to force the funding issue.

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  • QanamilQanamil Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    What would that public pressure look like? An increasing majority blames Trump for the wall, and he doesn't care. Most MAGA types support the shutdown because they either don't think it affects them, or don't care because it hurts the right people. Hannity will keep telling Trump that capitulating is weak.

    Like, which public is going to put pressure on who to make this stop?

    I think the slow/shutdown of airports and how that effects the wealthy/lobbyist has teeth.

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  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    What would that public pressure look like? An increasing majority blames Trump for the wall, and he doesn't care. Most MAGA types support the shutdown because they either don't think it affects them, or don't care because it hurts the right people. Hannity will keep telling Trump that capitulating is weak.

    Like, which public is going to put pressure on who to make this stop?

    I think this is a thing we don't talk about here for very specific and very good reasons.

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  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited January 11
    At what point does the horrific damage being done become enough of a justification though?

    2020? People are feeling the pain after 3 weeks. Another 23 months (or whatever) isn't tenable. That level of failure state would see the US becoming a literal failed state. I wouldn't want to begin to calculate the literal loss of life it would represent.

    I think there is a time line in which Democrats have to act in order to prevent a literal decent into anarchy. I don't know what it is, but I think it's less than 2 years. Maybe it's still months or even quarters away, but it's a lot closer than the next Presidential election period.

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  • HiroconHirocon Registered User regular
    edited January 11
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Hirocon wrote: »
    The viable exit is Trump gets voted out of office in 2020. Hopefully.

    Even betting that Trump loses reelection, that's over a year away. This is getting solved way before that. And yes, likely with the Dems caving before the second missed paycheck.

    I've already contacted both my senators and my rep, multiple times, and told them not to surrender to Trump even if it means keeping the government shut down for six years. And I plan to keep contacting them for as long as the shutdown lasts.

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  • QanamilQanamil Registered User regular
    Additionally, the economy at large lurching into the already forewarned recession would put considerable pressure on the administration.

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