Hey guys,
So this isn't set in stone yet, but I got an interview with a dream company and things seem to be really promising, the thing is this would be the first actual tech company I would be working at and up until now I've only worked either gigs/odd jobs/freelance. They also sent me an email asking me a few things, and I want to make sure I don't do anything wrong. One thing they are asking for is what my preferred salary would be, and honestly for that I looked into glassdoor and have a good idea of what the salary is, it's a lot more than I make now so I was going to just give them the number I saw there.
One thing they are asking about also is bonus and equity, which I have zero clue about, can I just say whatever is standard? Does that come off wrong or is there a way I can look into that.
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First job is tough to decide on how to negotiate, since you may feel like you're just lucky to find a job. I didn't negotiate at all my first job, but in retrospect, I probably should have at least a little.
The TLDR version is don't give them a preferred salary.
I just prefer giving the impression that I did my research, and am asking for something reasonable. They didn’t ask me what I am already making. Thank you so much for that link though, I’ll look into that thread.
The other end of the spectrum is a psychological technique known as anchoring. If know you what a positions pay range is because you've been doing it for ten years, you give a number on the top end, and let them tell you what the budget is. Then they are negotiating you down as opposed to you bringing them up.
Yeah, nowadays tech recruiters don't really let go without a preferred salary from my experience. In part because there's a big range, and they want to make sure this isn't a waste of everyone's time, and in part because I'm sure they're hoping to get lucky and have you lowball it
Take this all with a grain of salt, though, I've never really been involved on the salary negotiation from the company's side.
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I've had questions in both directions on equity, I think because opinions can vary wildly. As in, some companies have said "some of your compensation will be in regular stock grants, are you OK with that?" and some companies have said "none of your compensation will be in stock grants, are you OK with that?"
I agreed that bonuses deserve more poking as to the specifics of what's in writing/guaranteed and what's "expected" or whatnot if they are counting that as part of your compensation package.
If it's in writing, it can be just fine. For example, at Amazon I was guaranteed stock and annual bonuses for my first few years there, with more stock grants scheduled regularly in the future. It was part of my contract, so of course I received them. Definitely don't trust verbal promises or anything.
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a pretty common axiom in salary negotiation is to never make the first offer; this is because 1) you run the risk of offering either too high (potentially appearing unreasonable and/or hurting hiring prospects) or too low (reducing compensation, leading to resentment later) and 2) their counter-offer will then certainly come in a bit lower, and you've essentially negotiated against yourself. Of course, this reasoning also applies to the person doing the hiring so they will generally try to get you to give an opening number.
The company has some idea of what they want to pay you; if you responded to an ad that listed a range then you can just say you're comfortable negotiating within that and see what they come back with. If you haven't had the interview yet I also would be perfectly comfortable telling them you don't want to negotiate before then.
If on the other hand you don't mind being lowballed at bit (which is a fair decision) you could just kick them the glassdoor average; they're certainly aware of it as well so it won't seem like some outlandish number
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
But in general, he who names a number first, loses.
* https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/
* https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/salary-negotiation-for-engineers-developers-and-designers/
My experience has been that as a new grad, I had no agency unless I had another offer. And since it wasn't from a tier 1 company, I was barely able to move the needle.
I've got experience now, and now I can meaningfully negotiate. The same limitation holds though: unless you have a better offer they're only willing to go so far. And sometimes even then...(one of the places I almost ended up at gave me an offer and then effectively refused to negotiate it--just moved around the buckets without changing the overall amount meaningfully. So it goes).
I can say there is no standard for either bonus or equity. The place I was at previously had a bonus of like 3%, and no RSUs. We were granted options, which might have been good if the stock had been going up--but the stock wasn't going up so it was all so much smoke as far as income was concerned.
Talking turkey:
LevelsFYI.com is your friend, as is Glassdoor. You might consider Blind, but only if you are prepared to get jealous at what people claim to be getting in total compensation. I can say some of it is legit, but definitely don't trust everything...and don't expect that you'll be able to get the special treatment some of the folks claim to be getting. Consider it for an idea of what the top end might look like if you were to end up there and you were head-hunted or acquired by that company. On second thought, don't bother with Blind at all. There are too many caveats there and it's almost certainly not relevant to you.
Levels is much more realistic in my experience.
Amazon for example tops out at 150K/year salary, no yearly bonus, but your signing bonus is typically significant, as is the amount of equity you are granted. The equity is disbursed in a backloaded manner because they hope you will leave before it fully vests. And the numbers support that--most people don't end up getting the bulk of their stock.
Microsoft doesn't have the same hard cap, but typically ends up with lower total compensation than Amazon unless Amazon is low-balling your level, which they like to do.
If they press for numbers, I think I'll go ahead and give some sort of range like you guys mentioned. They also asked if I had any other pending offers, so the cards are not really in my favor in that regard. I just don't want to make a decision I'll kick myself for in a few years, but I have been looking into all the glassdoor info I can find, and the salaries I saw didn't vary too much from employee to employee who seemed to have reported and it was generally rising a little by each year. I just wanted to double check to see if asking for the entry glassdoor amounts would sound about right, again I still wouldn't know what to say for equity, so I'll give them a range if they push for it and let them hopefully give me some options.
That's exactly what I was thinking, I have worked freelance for quite some while and with people they know, which is how this all started, but I really could use the office experience and the name will help a lot too I imagine. I'm honestly not worried about squeezing in a few extra grand or anything.
Don't worry about that not giving you leverage. Just, like always, phrase it positively. "No, I'm still in the interviewing stage with other companies too." Some recruiters will ask what companies, but I've never had anyone actually press on that if you don't want to answer.
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Having other options is the best way to negotiate. The phrase is "Best alternative to negotiated agreement" (BATNA). Whether that means you stay at your current job, go with a different option, or whatever. If they know you don't have any other options, they have the upper hand and it will limit your ability to negotiate. On the other hand, lying about it means they potentially call your bluff and then you're untrustworthy if you go back a second time, so think long and hard before lying instead of deflecting if you can think of a suitable deflection on the spot (heh. I can't.).
For the future, assuming you decide to stay in the industry, it's extremely helpful if you can get multiple offers to land around the same time by scheduling all your interviews around the same time. Larger companies tend to take longer to make an offer in my experience; smaller ones tend to be more nimble. The flip side is you can use the interviews as practice, so you want to schedule the places you want to work at later than the ones you don't care about. There's a balance to be had there that you'll need to figure out.
The ideal is to have at least one offer in hand when you start your negotiation--then your BATNA is simply taking the other offer if it's better, and they know it. This is part of why it's easier to get a job when you have a job--your BATNA then is you stick with your current job.
When negotiating, try to push the base salary over everything else. The sign-on bonus is just that, and will go away (assuming you move on within the usual 2-4 years). Equity can grow or shrink with the economy and how well the company is doing, so de-rate that as well. If it's options, the stock may end up functionally worthless to you if the stock price drops below the purchase price. If it's RSUs, you'll at least be able to get something out of it when it vests. If the company isn't yet public, equity should be considered near worthless, or a lottery ticket--it may someday be worth a shitload of money, but chances are it will be worth the paper it's printed on.
All IMO, YMMV, consult a doctor before taking, etc.
Yes, this, and hopefully you are interviewing elsewhere. If nothing else it's good practice, and you may end up with a job that's better than the one you were lusting after.
Half the time they just spit out bottom half of the range, which gives you what you need. For companies that have glass door ranges, try dividing the range in 4, then adding 1/4 to the bottom of the range and it will often be close.
OP I don't know how old you are, but there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong taking less (especially if less is going to be more than you make now) while also making sure you're getting a leg up on your retirement years.
I'm 35 and have been in the tech industry both private and public sector since I was 22, so what I'm telling you is just based on my personal experiences.
...also I'm about to leave technology behind to go be a farmer, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I am going to be a farmer with two nicely fed 401s / hybrid IRAs and a decent stock portfolio in case the corn doesn't grow.
Or should I just wait until interview.
Just wait. If it's a tech interview, your interviewer almost certainly won't care. The recruiter/HR will follow up when they actually want the info. You've replied, so it's not like they are waiting on you.
If this intro interview is with the recruiter/HR or otherwise not a technical interview, be ready for them to ask that, yeah. Generally that type of recruiter interview is very basic with those process-y questions and clarifying about some of the stuff on your resume (what programming languages have you used, what teams were you on, what are you looking for, what do you know about the company, etc.) Generally low-pressure stuff, but they do weed out some people if they just think they won't be a good fit (ie it's for a Machine Learning position and you actually don't have much Machine Learning experience or similar).
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They'll ask something like "tell me about a challenge you worked through" and they're looking for 3 things:
Situation: set the stage and context
Action: what did you do and why
Result: what were the results
I've seen it as STAR: Situation, Task, Action, Result. Same thing though, and it's a very good way to relate your experiences.
That reminds me. If you're interviewing at a large company, find out what their core values are. If the team you're interviewing with buys into the core values, it can be very beneficial to come up with a number--say 5 each--of times you have exhibited each of the core values. If the team doesn't care/doesn't buy into the core values or the company doesn't have core values (E.g. because it's small), then it doesn't matter. Your task, should you choose to accept it, will be to figure out what the team's core values are during the interview. And then come up with ways on the spot that you exemplify those values.
"The only real politics I knew was that if a guy liked Hitler, I’d beat the stuffing out of him and that would be it." -- Jack Kirby
Thanks again for all the help, I wish I was getting more interviews in general so I would have had more experience with answering. I want to say I was about 80-85% successful with my answers, and I also had a small list of questions I asked that opened up more conversations afterwards.
That sounds positive, congrats! Good luck on results!
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