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[NBA] Thread: Like a Woj Bomb in the Night

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  • NiryaNirya Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Magell wrote: »
    As much as there is a difference between how College and the Pro game is played a lot of players still need more time to develop their skills and most of those players are still growing and getting bigger and need to learn how to be less awkward as well. Most people aren't going to be ready to play in the NBA right out of High School even if they are really good.

    I have always disagreed with this approach.

    A year in the NBA will lead to far more development than a year in the NCAA, even if it's spent on the bench. And for playing time, the G League will also do better than the NCAA.

    You're around a far higher grade of trainers, a far better standard of player generally, and the environment is far more similar to what you'll eventually find in the NBA.

    Ben Simmons has repeatedly stated that the year he spent with Philadelphia while injured and not playing was far more valuable in acclimating him to life in the NBA than the year he spent at LSU.

    Well yes, because LSU had a terrible coach when he was there.

    There are absolutely some fantastic coaches in the NCAA, it just happens that a good amount of the top players pick some awful ones. KAT was the last #1 pick to play under an actual good coach (to be followed by Zion this year, despite my misgivings about Coach K).

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  • DJ EebsDJ Eebs Moderator mod
    I don't think going to the NCAA is necessary for players to develop skills, and absolutely they're probably going to learn more from an NBA team, or a European team.

    But spots in the NBA draft, and in quality European leagues are definitely limited. And there are a lot of high school basketball players. Lowering the draft age to 18 is the right move, since it's going to open up more opportunities for players to get paid earlier. They should absolutely do that! It won't fix the overall problems with the NCAA though, and it absolutely won't measurably hurt the NCAA.

    For one, losing a handful of top prospects to the NBA isn't going to affect the whole of college basketball that much. There are a lot of college basketball teams, and plenty of them are already stocked with players who are never going to sniff the NBA. It doesn't stop the tournament from being a huge cultural phenomenon, which means it doesn't stop the NCAA from making money. And honestly, the tournament is full of pretty fucking bad basketball. It can still be extremely exciting! But it's...bad?

    And, you know, a lot of the best players coming out of high school are playing a lot of people who aren't nearly as good as them, which makes it tougher to get a read on how good anyone actually is. Zion wasn't a consensus #1 pick until he proved he could play at this level against good college competition. And some players don't really catch anyone's attention until they do something in the tournament, you know? Like, maybe Steph Curry is even better than he is now if he went straight from high school to the NBA, but how good are the odds that anyone drafts him right out of high school? What are the odds anyone in Europe pays attention?

    So...there's no real crisis moment for the NCAA if this happens. They're going to miss out on the Lebrons of the world, but they already survived missing out on...Lebron. They're still the best option for the vast majority of good basketball players in the US, despite how fucking corrupt and terrible they are. And also...they still have college football? And nobody's drafting 18 year olds to play pro football, because they will die.

    This is all a more long-winded way of saying shit other people have already said. But ultimately, yeah, the NCAA is fucked and needs massive reforms or to just be shuttered entirely and replaced with something else.

    MagellDyvim Tvar
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited February 22
    The point is that the G League can be just as good as the NCAA at doing everything you described without a single one of the negatives that comes along with it. Which you agree with in your last sentence, but I just wanted to restress that.

    Everything that both the NBA and NCAA provide, whether it be the environment, the coaches, the training facilities, whatever - the NBA does all of it better, so a player who needs a development year is better off doing it in the NBA than in the NCAA, if they can.

    And for everything else, there's the G League. There's nothing the NCAA provides that the G League couldn't do better given time and resources to grow it.

    Fuck the NCAA.

    Dhalphir on
  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
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  • OctavianOctavian Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    The point is that the G League can be just as good as the NCAA at doing everything you described without a single one of the negatives that comes along with it. Which you agree with in your last sentence, but I just wanted to restress that.

    Everything that both the NBA and NCAA provide, whether it be the environment, the coaches, the training facilities, whatever - the NBA does all of it better, so a player who needs a development year is better off doing it in the NBA than in the NCAA, if they can.

    And for everything else, there's the G League. There's nothing the NCAA provides that the G League couldn't do better given time and resources to grow it.

    Fuck the NCAA.

    There is a lot of hyperbole in this post. I will start by saying I think the NCAA should allow schools to pay players. It will drastically change the system, and I am for that.

    I think most of my objection to what you said stems from the fact that your treat the NBA, all NCAA schools, and all players as exactly equal. Some NBA teams have better facilities and staffs than some (ill even give you most here) schools. All players will get treated better by G-League teams than they would by NCAA schools? Maybe Ben Simmons was better off, but what about X late second round player, that gets very little staff attention, or plays for a G-League team in Fayetteville? This is a situation that is happening RIGHT NOW, and you can see that its not true. Also, I just read a current NBA All Star (Middleton) was injured a few years ago because the practice facility they used was in the back of an old church, and the floor was very wet in the winter? That's an anecdote the disproves your rule, that shit would never happen at my school.

    The G-League couldn't do better...What is stopping it from doing better right now? Oh right, the NBA and its teams are drastically under paying G-League players (2-way contracts are even worse for players), even though they are making insanely more money then most schools. If the NBA wanted the G-League to be a more realistic option, they could just choose to do that. They haven't chosen to do that.

    The G-League could be made to be a better option. The NCAA could allow schools to pay players, and be a more fair option. I am for BOTH of those thing. But if both were true, you would still see 90% of the current NCAA players still going to college. Because although a college education isn't FOR everyone, it is still not totally worthless. And if you aren't going to play basketball professionally, there is some value in getting an education.

    Also, the tone of these posts (not necessarily yours Dhalphir) being so mad at the NCAA (a shit organization, but for other reasons) stemming from the 1-and-done rule, an NBA RULE, is confusing to me. The NBA instituted this rule because their teams were so bad about drafting players well and developing them, that they were RUINING their own product. So lets maybe slow down and not put the NBA up on a pedestal.

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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Octavian wrote: »
    The G-League couldn't do better...What is stopping it from doing better right now? Oh right, the NBA and its teams are drastically under paying G-League players (2-way contracts are even worse for players), even though they are making insanely more money then most schools. If the NBA wanted the G-League to be a more realistic option, they could just choose to do that. They haven't chosen to do that.

    Because the NCAA exists and is drawing all of this attention.

    It's pretty hard for the G League to profitably compete as a business and an entertainment event when it is required to compete with an institution getting free labor.

  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    if teams were allowed to send down and recall young players in a baseball style fashion i expect the g league would work a lot better.

    i imagine that's something on the nba's radar.

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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Knight_ wrote: »
    if teams were allowed to send down and recall young players in a baseball style fashion i expect the g league would work a lot better.

    i imagine that's something on the nba's radar.

    I don't know what baseball fashion means but teams can absolutely send down players and recall them for the G League.

    MaximumButters
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Adam Silver has also mentioned relegation offhand as part of conversations about the lottery system. I expect there are a lot of things up in the air in terms of how the NBA wants to move forward with drafting and the development league(s).

    The NCAA will always exist, but I do think the D-League will see a lot more interest when all the hype, drafted players are in games consistently. Like, who wouldn't be curious to see how a rehabbing Giannis does against a newly-drafted Zion?

    Something to consider is that right now players have very little incentive to care about and very little leverage to push for improvements when it comes to the D-League. It's basically a place to store all your replacement-level players and rehab recovering players. That will change once high draft picks start showing up straight out of high school and want to be certain that they are given the right development and support to get into the NBA. Similarly, the teams themselves will have more incentive to provide for those players, given they will be investing draft picks (and the corresponding high draft pick contracts) to said players.

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  • OctavianOctavian Registered User regular
    Why does the G-League need to be profitable?

    In what universe is a AA basketball team in Ft Wayne or Erie expected to be a profitable enterprise? Its a division of an NBA team designed to support that team. NBA teams are insanely profitable.

    Those teams exist entirely as a resource for NBA teams to try out, evaluate, develop, and park for emergency call up, players that they don't want counting against their main team roster. Their salaries don't count against the salary cap. Teams could triple their G-League salaries or more, and that cost would barely impact their bottom line. And oh yeah, they would attract better talent. But the NBA set limits on those salaries to pinch pennies.

    If you hate the NCAA for not paying players (fair), shouldn't you also kind of hate the G League for not paying players reasonable wage that makes it a legitimate choice between college and the G-League?

    They RAISED the G-League salary TO $35,000 last year. It was 19,000-24000. An Entire G-League team salary is probably less than .5% of an NBA team salary.

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  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Knight_ wrote: »
    if teams were allowed to send down and recall young players in a baseball style fashion i expect the g league would work a lot better.

    i imagine that's something on the nba's radar.

    I don't know what baseball fashion means but teams can absolutely send down players and recall them for the G League.

    sure, and the way it works for established players is very similar, where they go down for rehab stints on occasion. but i mean something like expanded rosters at the end of the season, the concept of service time before RFA similar to arbitration eligibility, etc.

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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Basically what I want to see is the NCAA gone and the G League turned into a true minor league, replacing the NCAA's farm system. I don't see any value in what the NCAA brings to basketball beyond its status as a farm league, and I believe the G League can be better at that while showcasing a higher quality of play and a better entertainment product.

  • MagellMagell Sphinx! Parts UnknownRegistered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Octavian wrote: »
    The G-League couldn't do better...What is stopping it from doing better right now? Oh right, the NBA and its teams are drastically under paying G-League players (2-way contracts are even worse for players), even though they are making insanely more money then most schools. If the NBA wanted the G-League to be a more realistic option, they could just choose to do that. They haven't chosen to do that.

    Because the NCAA exists and is drawing all of this attention.

    It's pretty hard for the G League to profitably compete as a business and an entertainment event when it is required to compete with an institution getting free labor.

    It wouldn't have to start out profitable with the NBA funding its developmental teams and using them as a resource. The G-League is barely even a blip on anybody's radar as a thing that exists. I've traveled to Grand Rapids before to see an Arena Football game and I had no clue the Pistons had a G-League team there even if I wanted to make a 2 and a 1/2 hour drive for basketball. If they put money into promoting the league it would help.

    I know ESPN actually aired some games last season and that's good, but there's got to be a push for streaming them somewhere online to build up excitement. Air them for free and build up excitement for the teams and the players. If the pro teams actually use players they develop in G-League and use that as a story on ESPN it makes people pay more attention. Baseball teams do this well. Their developmental teams see lots of good players spend time in their after an injury or when they are in a rough slump to break them out of it. As boring as baseball is, going to a ballpark and watching a game is a lot of fun and a lot of the teams focus on that aspect even more than just seeing a sport. There's a whole lot of stuff that the NBA should do to develop the G-League into something that fans can get excited about.

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Bit pointless to put money into promoting the league until the NCAA stops holding on to all the players worth promoting.

  • OctavianOctavian Registered User regular
    The what you are mad at is the NBA. The NBA purposefully structures the G-League to be a not reasonable option, because then it forces players to play in the NCAA, which costs them nothing!

    What you want is for the NBA to quadruple the salaries in the G-League. But the NCAA wouldn't die, the top tier talent would get siphoned off. All the NCAA players that had no hope of playing professionally would still go to the NCAA. Fans would still go to games. You know how I know this? Because fans still go to mid-major games. People would still watch the tourney.

    The NCAA would take a decent reduction on its next TV contract. That money would have to come out of...Athletic Director and Coach Salaries (fuck all of these people, they make way too much money). Because guess what, you can't pay the players any less money, they are already at 0$!

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  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    For sure part of the reason the NBA hasn't moved on this issue sooner is because the NCAA is currently accountable for stuff that the NBA doesn't have to deal with or pay for. The NCAA in some sense kills two birds with one stone, because they can use the players to make money for themselves while also ensuring that the NBA pays absolutely nothing (and has no responsibility) for young player development.

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  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    Octavian wrote: »
    The what you are mad at is the NBA. The NBA purposefully structures the G-League to be a not reasonable option, because then it forces players to play in the NCAA, which costs them nothing!

    What you want is for the NBA to quadruple the salaries in the G-League. But the NCAA wouldn't die, the top tier talent would get siphoned off. All the NCAA players that had no hope of playing professionally would still go to the NCAA. Fans would still go to games. You know how I know this? Because fans still go to mid-major games. People would still watch the tourney.

    The NCAA would take a decent reduction on its next TV contract. That money would have to come out of...Athletic Director and Coach Salaries (fuck all of these people, they make way too much money). Because guess what, you can't pay the players any less money, they are already at 0$!

    The nba has only recently decided to make the g league a real thing, so I’m not really angry at them? It’s a process and I assume they’ll need a cba or two to get there.

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  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    For sure part of the reason the NBA hasn't moved on this issue sooner is because the NCAA is currently accountable for stuff that the NBA doesn't have to deal with or pay for. The NCAA in some sense kills two birds with one stone, because they can use the players to make money for themselves while also ensuring that the NBA pays absolutely nothing (and has no responsibility) for young player development.

    Except college systems aren't terribly useful on the player development end anymore. With all the high level talent that's coming from Europe and Africa now, the NCAA as a free farm system is a concept that's becoming (if not already) obsolete. The NBA doesn't need the NCAA to help filter out the top talent like the NFL does and from a basketball perspective it makes more sense to have the top talent learn the pro level game from pro coaches and players

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  • TheBigEasyTheBigEasy Registered User regular
    Magell wrote: »
    As much as there is a difference between how College and the Pro game is played a lot of players still need more time to develop their skills and most of those players are still growing and getting bigger and need to learn how to be less awkward as well. Most people aren't going to be ready to play in the NBA right out of High School even if they are really good.

    That doesn't really matter, players will still declare for the draft. The lure of big money will always be greater than the realization that they need to develop as a player.

    And given the injury risk and the general explotativeness of both the NCAA and NBA, I don't even blame them at all.

  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    Just declaring for the draft won't get everyone drafted. There are only two rounds in the NBA. The least developed will still end up in the NCAA system

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  • XehalusXehalus lofi Registered User regular
    edited February 25
    the NBA is actually pushing the G League as an alternative

    hell the Hawks just finally got their team

    I should go tryout

    Xehalus on
  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    It would still be a very small alternative and one that's not televised.

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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    I don’t think it will matter that much just because it won’t amount to very many players; it’ll be the most talented ones of course, but NCAA ball is already a lot less star driven than the NBA. For the vast, vast majority of college teams the difference will be negligible.

    Plus the threat of players jumping straight to The Lig maybe inspires the NCAA to treat theirs a bit better, who knows

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  • NiryaNirya Registered User regular
    Kevin O’Connor has a good article about this at the Ringer today.

    https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/2/25/18239529/nba-one-and-done-draft-zion-williamson

    Interestingly enough, one of the thought processes was to create a system similar to NHL and MLB where guys can go to school instead of where they’re drafted if they choose to.

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  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    I thought most most MLB draftees play or played in the NCAA system?

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  • NiryaNirya Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    I thought most most MLB draftees play or played in the NCAA system?

    Nope! You can get drafted out of high school, and then choose to sign a minor league contract or go to college for a few years.

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  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    I knew you could get drafted from high school but I thought a vast majority of players weren't.

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  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    Very very few play in the majors immediately, but I think a decent fraction get drafted and go play in the minors for a few years.

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  • NiryaNirya Registered User regular
    A good amount of players get drafted out of high school. There’s a risk and reward to doing it, especially because they are not guaranteed to sign with you, but it does happen a good amount. See: Mike Trout.

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  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Top-tier prospects get drafted ASAP and put in the minors. The general consensus is that the minors, even Single-A, provide better competition and development than college ball. And if a player does particularly well, they can just move up to the next tier (and so on) until they finally get called up. There's also the added complication that if you join a four-year college, you can't be drafted until after your junior year or when you hit 21. Which means that a lot of prospects end up playing in junior college rather than joining a four-year program (further diluting the NCAA pool).

    The thing about baseball is that peak years are generally older than in other sports, and players are given much more time to physically grow, develop their skills, and prove their worth. If you aren't drafted straight out of high school, you may still be considered a good prospect - it's just that teams want to see if you'll grow to be bigger or stronger, or if you'll develop another pitch or more velocity rather than relying on one big breaking ball that high school kids can't hit, etc. etc. etc.

    The issue with the MLB approach is that because the pools are so varied and diluted, it's often hard to get a good grasp of where players actually lie until they get to the big show. While this is true for other sports - it's even more true for baseball, where many top players who destroy AAA ball still can't hack it in the majors even as replacement-level bench warmers. And this is after years of development in a specially-curated environment.

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  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    Boban just had his knee immolated by Cheick Diallo literally diving into his lower leg.

    fuck this shit.

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  • TheBigEasyTheBigEasy Registered User regular
    Something positive - Dirk Nowitzki on probably his farewell tour.

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  • Raijin QuickfootRaijin Quickfoot I'm your Huckleberry YOU'RE NO DAISYRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Holy shit that technical called on Boogie for throwing a loose shoe off the floor...

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  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    Holy shit that technical called on Boogie for throwing a loose shoe off the floor...

    that tech is insane

    someone's gonna snap their ankle on a shoe they don't see and he gets a tech for removing it. it's not like he hucked it into the 2nd level, it barely got off the court. refs gonna ref.

    i expect that one will be overturned by the league office.

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  • ph blakeph blake Registered User regular


    From a Warriors beat writer. Shouldn't have been called in the first place, but good that they rescinded it.

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  • Raijin QuickfootRaijin Quickfoot I'm your Huckleberry YOU'RE NO DAISYRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Sounds like Boban dodged a bullet.

    He'll be out 5-7 days.

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  • The JudgeThe Judge The Terwilliger CurvesRegistered User regular

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  • RingoRingo Out of things to say Heartbreak HillRegistered User regular
    Hax

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    I know my last visit to my grandpa on his deathbed was to find out how the whole Nazi werewolf thing turned out.
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  • XehalusXehalus lofi Registered User regular
    Trae Young is legit

  • KelorKelor Registered User regular
    edited March 3
    The Suns probably just eliminated the Lakers from playoff contention.

    They need to win all the easier games given how bad their schedule remaining is.

    Kelor on
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