The scope of Doom Eternal, and their talk of building a "Doom universe" intrigues me, though it does set off some red flags that I developed from hollywoods continual failed attempts to recreate the Avengers phenomena.
With Quake, I think they should just do it like how they did Wolfenstein and Rage: find a talented studio to take the reigns.
Or shit, Dishonored 3 probably isn't happening; I'd be curious what Arkane could do with a more action oriented title. They could definitely do the mood well.
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Golden YakBurnished BovineThe sunny beaches of CanadaRegistered Userregular
The scope of Doom Eternal, and their talk of building a "Doom universe" intrigues me, though it does set off some red flags that I developed from hollywoods continual failed attempts to recreate the Avengers phenomena.
I'd be up for a game that deals in more of the rich lore introduced in DOOM, and I do mean that. Maybe a game set in that strange other world that's also not hell, Argent Dnur or whatever it's really called, with all the sorcerer-knight people. I found the idea of a greater Doom cosmology to be pretty interesting.
Really hoping Eternal touches on more of that, and its connection to the 'Doom Slayer' marine.
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-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
edited February 2019
The first thing I thought when I heard 'building a Doom universe' was 'give me an X-Com game where I'm playing Marines and fighting demons'.
With Quake, I think they should just do it like how they did Wolfenstein and Rage: find a talented studio to take the reigns.
Isn't that what they initially did? It was a cooperative effort between id and Sabre Interactive. Though looking at their portfolio of games, I wouldn't say they were the right choice. id have taken over the project entirely now.
The problem is that Quake is of two minds (well, three if you count the multiplayer releases like Q3/Champions, but let's ignore those). Quake 1 didn't have much of a story, but had some very interesting atmospheric and setting stuff going on with the Lovecraftian/Medieval elements. Quake 2 and 4 were all about the Strogg, which provided a bit more of a fleshed out story, but were completely different in tone than the first game. So even if you wanted to "revive" Quake, what does that look like?
Personally I'd rather see them lean way harder into the first game's setting and go full-on horror.
It's not just the Quake 2/4 split. I'm still a very active member of the community and the majority of the people who still play the franchise are really only multiplayer types who could not care less about eldrich horror vs cyber body horror backgrounds. There are very loud arguments around the new stuff in Quake Champions and then there is the Quake 3 vs Quake World MP game play fight.
I'm not sure a single player Quake would sell in either vision. Though if they are going to reboot it going full out Lovecraft might bring new people into it... but the majority of the player pool will say "LOL no strafe jumps and midair rox no thanks" and whip past it.
Competitive community probably can't even tell the games apart visually because they play on some stupid high r_picmip level or equivalent (I kid).
I was thinking about this and from a multiplayer perspective, the first 3 Quakes were fairly different. Quake 4 was different too (crouch sliding, projectiles through teleporters, grenades on jump pads), but it was closer to Quake 3 overall. Ever since Quake 3, they've been following that model for the most part and some fans have wanted this. Perhaps they could try embracing that each Quake had something that made it unique if they ever try to make another one. Quake 1 was stupid fast, instant weapon switching, rocket launcher and lightning gun dominant (tiered weapon system, tiered armor system). Quake 2 much slower overall, including weapon switching, railgun and rocket launcher dominant (tiered weapon and armor system), double jumping glitch. Quake 3 trying to go between the first and second games, faster weapon switch than Quake 2, balance out the weapons more, remove tiered weapon and armor system. Quake 4 similar mechanics to Quake 3, but added crouch sliding to go very fast (especially around corners), allowed you to shoot projectiles through teleporters, and have grenades bounce off jump pads.
Lastly we have Quake Champions, which they did try to do something unique by adding this whole concept of having the characters all be unique with abilities and traits based around Quake3 gameplay. I applaud them for that because at least it wasn't just Quake 3 yet again 1:1 with better graphics (although personally I'd still have fun with it). Quake 3 and Quake Live are still there to play. However, I think it'd be more fun without the abilities and traits, since in some modes, some characters have huge advantages. Like in FFA or team deathmatch, there's little reason to not pick a big character that starts off with far more armor and health, and can stack much higher totals. It's a fun game to play and I've played it quite a bit, but obviously the player base is quite small.
Maybe they could try a single player/multiplayer game again. If Doom 2016 had Quake Champions' multiplayer, that'd be killer. There was a lot of potential too, since in single player once you got all the upgrades, your movement was like Quake1 with fast movement and crazy air control. We got something else though, which to me was disappointing.
I'd much rather they really just focus on pumping out quality Doom content and fix Quake Champions. I mean, a Quake with Doom's gameplay but the Quake Universe would be good, but they have a good thing going with Doom and it don't want them to risk faffing it up.
A fundamental problem of Quake Champions is its engine. They built it on a custom engine in conjunction with Saber Interactive. That engine is pretty badly optimized. My PC turns into a space heater. They should have just run it on id tech 6.
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augustwhere you come from is goneRegistered Userregular
I just tried Lair of Cthon in Quake 1.5 and got FUCKIN' DESTROYED.
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Linespider5ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGERRegistered Userregular
Quake 1 will always be some weird acrid holy grail. I don’t know how it can be touched or re-envisioned. I love it, but it exists on such a weird branch of FPS evolution, there doesn’t seem to be a way to recontextualize it.
Then there’s the branding issues. Quake as a name is much more well known for multiplayer hijinks (Arena, Live, Champions) and the space marine Strogg stuff (2, 4, Quake Enemy Territory) so you’re struggling to market Quake, But Not That One, And Not That Other One, Either.
Eh, it's just a normal high intensity shooter with gothic architecture and low-tier cthulhu baddies.
Just do Doom 2016, but with an action horror bent, and maybe some kind of sanity mechanic.
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Linespider5ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGERRegistered Userregular
Maybe it is that simple.
I suppose Quake 1 has a lot of stuff in it that could be re-examined, like its love of level traps, floating platforms, and gravity stuff. Maybe there have been shooters with those elements but it doesn’t feel like there’ve been any that really stand out, or do it like it was done then.
Yeah I said a few pages back, the difference between Valve and id is so weird from the HL2 era. Valve were kings of the industry with a genre defining FPS, putting out critically acclaimed episodic expansions for it and were THE name in PC multiplayer with CS: Source, TF2 and Left4Dead. id had floundered with both Rage and Doom 3 and their next game was stuck in development hell. Their other fan favourite properties, Wolfenstein and Quake, were nowhere to be seen in regards to new games.
Valve now doesn't seem to even care about its own IP and are happy being a third party storefront. id got acquired by a publisher and it's the best thing to ever happen to them and their IP - Wolfensteins had 2 major, well received games as well as smaller DLC game, they've reinvented - against all odds - the grandfather of PC game, Doom, with a critically acclaimed game, even Rage which wasn't too hot is getting a sequel that looks bonkers good. It's only really Quake that's not going anywhere, but Quake is such a weird amalgam of a game series it's going to be very hard to revive.
As Tim Willits said - it's a good time to be an id software fan.
At this point I'm totally expecting to see a Commander Keen reboot at E3.
I don't know if I would call Doom 3 floundering. Didn't that sell extremely well for them? I think in retrospect people think a lot less of Doom 3, but at the time it was critically well received as well.
The big thing to realize about pre-Bethesda is that were truly a small, indie company build AAA style games. Rage took so long because there were starting to hit the limits of scale vs what they were capable of delivering.
There is an alternative universe were ID stays smaller and goes smaller with their games. That universe also might have been interesting.
I think I disagree that you could do a Quake 1 remake that was basically a Doom 2016 reskin, I think you need some unique mechanics there to serve the tone, described above.
I think I disagree that you could do a Quake 1 remake that was basically a Doom 2016 reskin, I think you need some unique mechanics there to serve the tone, described above.
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply a reskin (My original post was going to say "drop the glory kills for a sanity mechanic" but then I realized I'd need to explain how that'd work, and that was more effort than I felt like expending) but the part about making it a high speed 90' style shooter with modern sensibilities. I agree you wouldn't want to do a 1-to-1 swap.
I think it would need something to stand out, like something structural, like making it a first person rogue like or something,. Not necessarily specifically that, but it would take more than just a few interesting moves or guns to make it stand out and be worth it.
I suppose Quake 1 has a lot of stuff in it that could be re-examined, like its love of level traps, floating platforms, and gravity stuff. Maybe there have been shooters with those elements but it doesn’t feel like there’ve been any that really stand out, or do it like it was done then.
Quake 1 also loved to lean on the then-new capability of making stuff properly above and below other stuff. The vertical architecture of Quake could sometimes get really convoluted in interesting ways.
I think Quake 1 could be revisited and be worthwhile (something I'd love to see as a huge fan of the first game and its unique grunge), but I also believe there's no escaping Doom 2016, partially because Doom, in a weird reversal of history, actually ended up taking a lot of little bits from the Quake games and melding them into its own world.
Someone upthread mentioned trying to actually work the Strogg into Quake's sci-fi-fantasy-horror dimensional rift nonsense, and I think that's a fucking great idea.
I think it would need something to stand out, like something structural, like making it a first person rogue like or something,. Not necessarily specifically that, but it would take more than just a few interesting moves or guns to make it stand out and be worth it.
...actually as much as I hate fps roguelikes (the always the same modular rooms over and over, and that gets tiring), doing something on the level of Quake, where you could reasonably randomly generate the levels and it would kind of fit with the aesthetic of the game, could be interesting.
I think it would need something to stand out, like something structural, like making it a first person rogue like or something,. Not necessarily specifically that, but it would take more than just a few interesting moves or guns to make it stand out and be worth it.
...actually as much as I hate fps roguelikes (the always the same modular rooms over and over, and that gets tiring), doing something on the level of Quake, where you could reasonably randomly generate the levels and it would kind of fit with the aesthetic of the game, could be interesting.
Anyone play Strafe, that homage to 90's fps games with roguelike mechanics and low-poly, crunchy textured models? Randomly generated levels, start at the beginning from scratch when you die, etc. I liked it
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Linespider5ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGERRegistered Userregular
I’m surprised Prey was actually a 2017 game. Not sure if Arkane would be the ones to make a direct shoot-em up like a Quake title but I’d be very intrigued if they wanted to move on that.
In entirely unrelated news I also wish there was a way Arkane could let Obsidian make a third person RPG set in the Dishonored franchise, but that’s neither here nor there.
The scope of Doom Eternal, and their talk of building a "Doom universe" intrigues me, though it does set off some red flags that I developed from hollywoods continual failed attempts to recreate the Avengers phenomena.
I'd be up for a game that deals in more of the rich lore introduced in DOOM, and I do mean that. Maybe a game set in that strange other world that's also not hell, Argent Dnur or whatever it's really called, with all the sorcerer-knight people. I found the idea of a greater Doom cosmology to be pretty interesting.
Really hoping Eternal touches on more of that, and its connection to the 'Doom Slayer' marine.
Making Quake 20xx a secret prequel to DOOM 2016 wouldn't be the worst idea.
That said, my favorite was Q3A... but people would just complain that Quake is just trying to cash in on those battle royale dollars or something. They'd be stupid and wrong for saying that, but it'd happen.
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Linespider5ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGERRegistered Userregular
Honestly I think the repeated attempts to make a new multiplayer online Quake title have revealed that they should just not try to do that for a few years.
With Quake, I think they should just do it like how they did Wolfenstein and Rage: find a talented studio to take the reigns.
Isn't that what they initially did? It was a cooperative effort between id and Sabre Interactive. Though looking at their portfolio of games, I wouldn't say they were the right choice. id have taken over the project entirely now.
The problem is that Quake is of two minds (well, three if you count the multiplayer releases like Q3/Champions, but let's ignore those). Quake 1 didn't have much of a story, but had some very interesting atmospheric and setting stuff going on with the Lovecraftian/Medieval elements. Quake 2 and 4 were all about the Strogg, which provided a bit more of a fleshed out story, but were completely different in tone than the first game. So even if you wanted to "revive" Quake, what does that look like?
Personally I'd rather see them lean way harder into the first game's setting and go full-on horror.
It's not just the Quake 2/4 split. I'm still a very active member of the community and the majority of the people who still play the franchise are really only multiplayer types who could not care less about eldrich horror vs cyber body horror backgrounds. There are very loud arguments around the new stuff in Quake Champions and then there is the Quake 3 vs Quake World MP game play fight.
I'm not sure a single player Quake would sell in either vision. Though if they are going to reboot it going full out Lovecraft might bring new people into it... but the majority of the player pool will say "LOL no strafe jumps and midair rox no thanks" and whip past it.
Competitive community probably can't even tell the games apart visually because they play on some stupid high r_picmip level or equivalent (I kid).
I was thinking about this and from a multiplayer perspective, the first 3 Quakes were fairly different. Quake 4 was different too (crouch sliding, projectiles through teleporters, grenades on jump pads), but it was closer to Quake 3 overall. Ever since Quake 3, they've been following that model for the most part and some fans have wanted this. Perhaps they could try embracing that each Quake had something that made it unique if they ever try to make another one. Quake 1 was stupid fast, instant weapon switching, rocket launcher and lightning gun dominant (tiered weapon system, tiered armor system). Quake 2 much slower overall, including weapon switching, railgun and rocket launcher dominant (tiered weapon and armor system), double jumping glitch. Quake 3 trying to go between the first and second games, faster weapon switch than Quake 2, balance out the weapons more, remove tiered weapon and armor system. Quake 4 similar mechanics to Quake 3, but added crouch sliding to go very fast (especially around corners), allowed you to shoot projectiles through teleporters, and have grenades bounce off jump pads.
Lastly we have Quake Champions, which they did try to do something unique by adding this whole concept of having the characters all be unique with abilities and traits based around Quake3 gameplay. I applaud them for that because at least it wasn't just Quake 3 yet again 1:1 with better graphics (although personally I'd still have fun with it). Quake 3 and Quake Live are still there to play. However, I think it'd be more fun without the abilities and traits, since in some modes, some characters have huge advantages. Like in FFA or team deathmatch, there's little reason to not pick a big character that starts off with far more armor and health, and can stack much higher totals. It's a fun game to play and I've played it quite a bit, but obviously the player base is quite small.
Maybe they could try a single player/multiplayer game again. If Doom 2016 had Quake Champions' multiplayer, that'd be killer. There was a lot of potential too, since in single player once you got all the upgrades, your movement was like Quake1 with fast movement and crazy air control. We got something else though, which to me was disappointing.
I'd much rather they really just focus on pumping out quality Doom content and fix Quake Champions. I mean, a Quake with Doom's gameplay but the Quake Universe would be good, but they have a good thing going with Doom and it don't want them to risk faffing it up.
A fundamental problem of Quake Champions is its engine. They built it on a custom engine in conjunction with Saber Interactive. That engine is pretty badly optimized. My PC turns into a space heater. They should have just run it on id tech 6.
Plus let’s not forget how it handles updates.
Getting pushed a 10-15 gig patch every time gets kind of old after a while.
I think they need some sort of coding wizard to work on optimization if they make a new Quake. With modding tools.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
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Linespider5ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGERRegistered Userregular
Really, if they ever want Quake to be a contender again, they need to figure out a way to allow modding. That was such a major element of Quake’s appeal, and...FPS modding is something that’s been sorely lacking in modern titles.
Even as video games get more and more advanced, some players hold out for experiences that feel like the popular games of yesteryear. 3D Realms, the company behind such iconic games as Wolfenstein 3D
Wow. And that's with the Quake engine, huh? I'm sure Carmack and Romero are proud of what people have been able to pull off with their work. I'm definitely down with this.
Watching that gameplay video gives me a serious itch to boot up both Quake 1 and Blood.
Edit: Boy howdy am I looking forward to Nightdive's remaster of Blood. I was just reminded that, while still a fun, gory time, trying to wrangle that game into something that controls something like a modern shooter is pretty annoying these days.
BloodySloth on
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Linespider5ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGERRegistered Userregular
After reviewing that eleven minute gameplay snippet, I just don't know. It absolutely screams vintage Raven Software to me in the aesthetic they're pursuing. It's getting harder for me to pinpoint what the game should be recognized as. This is clearly doing some stuff vanilla Quake 1 is unlikely to pull off. And there's secondary firing, charged melee attacks, the ability to target limbs of an opponent-should these things be being counted against the retro feel they're going for?
Then there's things like watching the player awkwardly *HOOF* jump their way over some raised geometry that's meant to be some kind of oblong terrain. That's distinctly earlier 3D FPS stuff, but it's also the sort of thing that doesn't really speak to a strength of the games at that time. I'm not sure it adds to the game to have stuff like that in it, compared to some kind of mantling or just not having the terrain be able to be traversed at all.
Most damning, to be honest, I was bored by that video. The combat isn't made to look compelling. The enemies don't appear threatening, just as things to slow you down at best. The first trailer was a lot more compelling to me, punchier, and, admittedly, Quake 1 was all about mood, and god damn it, Wrath is trying to nail that mood thing too, but...this was like copying the choreography without any knowledge of the music.
Rage 2 appears to be a crossover between nuDoom and Australia.
What would doomguy do if he fell through the wrong hell portal and woke up in an apocalyptic wasteland populated by an unlikely number of armed demons?
While the gameplay and world look great I'm honestly kind of sick of that style of over the top zany humour, unless it actually underscores good character development it's kind of exhausting and played out
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With Quake, I think they should just do it like how they did Wolfenstein and Rage: find a talented studio to take the reigns.
Or shit, Dishonored 3 probably isn't happening; I'd be curious what Arkane could do with a more action oriented title. They could definitely do the mood well.
I'd be up for a game that deals in more of the rich lore introduced in DOOM, and I do mean that. Maybe a game set in that strange other world that's also not hell, Argent Dnur or whatever it's really called, with all the sorcerer-knight people. I found the idea of a greater Doom cosmology to be pretty interesting.
Really hoping Eternal touches on more of that, and its connection to the 'Doom Slayer' marine.
Isn't that what they initially did? It was a cooperative effort between id and Sabre Interactive. Though looking at their portfolio of games, I wouldn't say they were the right choice. id have taken over the project entirely now.
A fundamental problem of Quake Champions is its engine. They built it on a custom engine in conjunction with Saber Interactive. That engine is pretty badly optimized. My PC turns into a space heater. They should have just run it on id tech 6.
Then there’s the branding issues. Quake as a name is much more well known for multiplayer hijinks (Arena, Live, Champions) and the space marine Strogg stuff (2, 4, Quake Enemy Territory) so you’re struggling to market Quake, But Not That One, And Not That Other One, Either.
Just do Doom 2016, but with an action horror bent, and maybe some kind of sanity mechanic.
I suppose Quake 1 has a lot of stuff in it that could be re-examined, like its love of level traps, floating platforms, and gravity stuff. Maybe there have been shooters with those elements but it doesn’t feel like there’ve been any that really stand out, or do it like it was done then.
I don't know if I would call Doom 3 floundering. Didn't that sell extremely well for them? I think in retrospect people think a lot less of Doom 3, but at the time it was critically well received as well.
The big thing to realize about pre-Bethesda is that were truly a small, indie company build AAA style games. Rage took so long because there were starting to hit the limits of scale vs what they were capable of delivering.
There is an alternative universe were ID stays smaller and goes smaller with their games. That universe also might have been interesting.
I think I disagree that you could do a Quake 1 remake that was basically a Doom 2016 reskin, I think you need some unique mechanics there to serve the tone, described above.
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply a reskin (My original post was going to say "drop the glory kills for a sanity mechanic" but then I realized I'd need to explain how that'd work, and that was more effort than I felt like expending) but the part about making it a high speed 90' style shooter with modern sensibilities. I agree you wouldn't want to do a 1-to-1 swap.
Quake 1 also loved to lean on the then-new capability of making stuff properly above and below other stuff. The vertical architecture of Quake could sometimes get really convoluted in interesting ways.
I think Quake 1 could be revisited and be worthwhile (something I'd love to see as a huge fan of the first game and its unique grunge), but I also believe there's no escaping Doom 2016, partially because Doom, in a weird reversal of history, actually ended up taking a lot of little bits from the Quake games and melding them into its own world.
Someone upthread mentioned trying to actually work the Strogg into Quake's sci-fi-fantasy-horror dimensional rift nonsense, and I think that's a fucking great idea.
Edit: It was @SledGod !
...actually as much as I hate fps roguelikes (the always the same modular rooms over and over, and that gets tiring), doing something on the level of Quake, where you could reasonably randomly generate the levels and it would kind of fit with the aesthetic of the game, could be interesting.
Anyone play Strafe, that homage to 90's fps games with roguelike mechanics and low-poly, crunchy textured models? Randomly generated levels, start at the beginning from scratch when you die, etc. I liked it
In entirely unrelated news I also wish there was a way Arkane could let Obsidian make a third person RPG set in the Dishonored franchise, but that’s neither here nor there.
That said, my favorite was Q3A... but people would just complain that Quake is just trying to cash in on those battle royale dollars or something. They'd be stupid and wrong for saying that, but it'd happen.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/673130/AMID_EVIL/
Looks promising.
Yup, looking forward to that one. Need a good oldschool FPS to play now that I've finished Dusk.
Plus let’s not forget how it handles updates.
Getting pushed a 10-15 gig patch every time gets kind of old after a while.
I think they need some sort of coding wizard to work on optimization if they make a new Quake. With modding tools.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
Still waiting on that 1.3 update for Bombshell, guys.
https://www.shacknews.com/article/110352/3d-realms-teases-an-unannounced-quake-1-engine-shooter-reveal
Guys, Publishers aren't the 'guys behind' a game.
11 minutes of gameplay. Definitely gives me more of a 98/99 vibe than 96.
Edit: Boy howdy am I looking forward to Nightdive's remaster of Blood. I was just reminded that, while still a fun, gory time, trying to wrangle that game into something that controls something like a modern shooter is pretty annoying these days.
Then there's things like watching the player awkwardly *HOOF* jump their way over some raised geometry that's meant to be some kind of oblong terrain. That's distinctly earlier 3D FPS stuff, but it's also the sort of thing that doesn't really speak to a strength of the games at that time. I'm not sure it adds to the game to have stuff like that in it, compared to some kind of mantling or just not having the terrain be able to be traversed at all.
Most damning, to be honest, I was bored by that video. The combat isn't made to look compelling. The enemies don't appear threatening, just as things to slow you down at best. The first trailer was a lot more compelling to me, punchier, and, admittedly, Quake 1 was all about mood, and god damn it, Wrath is trying to nail that mood thing too, but...this was like copying the choreography without any knowledge of the music.
A whole aeon of it!
What would doomguy do if he fell through the wrong hell portal and woke up in an apocalyptic wasteland populated by an unlikely number of armed demons?
who'da knewn